Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jan 2019 11:33

ISRO spy case was a classic battled between IB and CBI during PVN Era , IB wanted to outdo itself and prove Nambi and the lady collegue were spies and they were out to there to spy on LPSC and they penetrated Naval VLF facility etc and got all sort of connection to prove its point and used media extensively during that era ,CBI came later in the picture realised it was all fabricated and tried to undo things but scientist like Nambi and others haf to pay a heavy price.

I read an article in that time post framing Nambi the entire village abandoned his family and him and they would not even speak to him a kind of social ostracisation was done against his family , Kudos to him for fighting a lonely battle against all odds and winning it.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 26 Jan 2019 12:37

Austin, unless you have some other reasons, you are absolving kerala police officials, who initiated and sustained the whole sordid affair, of any wrong doing.

There was no fight between CBI and IB in this case. CBI came in very late, after courts got into the act. The whole “fight” narrative was again some top official of kerala police’s way to explain out CBI’s “not guilty” findings

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 26 Jan 2019 13:47

Plots, twists & turns are intended to lead people astray.
The case primarily has links to Rattan Sehgal , the IB to-be chief who was caught providing info on India's nuclear programme to the Amreekis.
RB Sreekumar was his deputy.

The rest were all convenient events ( Antony Karunakaran power struggle) to frame Nambi and Sasi.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 26 Jan 2019 23:10

SC120 & CE32?

This is very interesting & out of the blue!

--Vamsee

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 26 Jan 2019 23:39

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 26 Jan 2019 23:39

https://www.isro.gov.in/sites/default/f ... -10202.pdf

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 26 Jan 2019 23:44

https://imgur.com/a/WPc0OfX

Transport trailers and tanks for C32,C25, L110

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 26 Jan 2019 23:57

Vamsee wrote:SC120 & CE32?

This is very interesting & out of the blue!

--Vamsee

My guess is that since the solid state boosters are the same, you can’t go too far ahead in 2nd and third stage weight. The weight increase of 3rd stage C32 and 2nd stage SC120 is possible (without increased thrust of stage 1 boosters i.e. S200) because the higher thrust 2nd stage will start firing with first stage at t=0. This will allow rocket to lift its higher weight of 2nd/3rd stages and additional payload weight.

They would need bigger or more of existing boosters in a rocket equipped with mammoth SC 200 and multiple of C20 clusters.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 27 Jan 2019 06:04

I think C32 is just C25 but with more fuel. Not a new engine but a new stage with bigger tanks. Perhaps this is obvious to everyone.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Jan 2019 07:05

ISRO, you beauty!!!

There goes my pet peeve. SC200 would have always been the second stage of a heavy launch vehicle. For yhe last one year or so, i have been asking for a SC110 stage. Along with the C25/32, it can form the pencil model TSTO which can lift 1.6 tons to GTO. Add strapons modularly which can act ad the first stage. Everything is falling into place now, including the odd size of S85 in the SSLV.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 28 Jan 2019 04:13

Isro eyes kerosene to boost GSLV Mk III’s lifting power to 6 tonnes.

Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is working on upgrading its heavylifter GSLV Mk III where the upper stage of the rocket will have highly refined form of kerosene as fuel in order to increase its payload capability.

Talking to TOI, Isro chairman K Sivan said, “To increase the payload capability of GSLV Mk III from 4 tonnes to 6 tonnes, we are in the process of making some improvements in rocket stages. First, we are working on enhancing the cryogenic stage fuel loading from 25 tonnes to 30 tonnes.

Second, we are also working on changing the core stage L110 — which has 110 tonnes of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine (UDMH) and dinitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). We want to replace L110 stage with semicryogenic engine that will carry liquefied oxygen and highly refined kerosene called kerolox (aka RP-1) instead of liquefied hydrogen.”

Sivan said, “The first test of the advanced version of Mk III will take place in December 2020. With upgrade in Mk III, we will also have to upgrade the launchpad facility at Sriharikota. We have therefore issued a tender notice recently inviting quotations for infrastructure upgrades at the second launchpad.”

However, the chairman clarified the rocket with the semicryogenic stage won't be used for the Gaganyaan mission. The current GSLV Mk III with L110 stage will only be used for the manned mission with some modifications.

The advantage of using kerolox is that it is 10 times dense — meaning the same volume of kerolox will generate more thrust than the same volume of hydrolox. It is also cheaper, more stable at room temperature and less hazardous than hydrolox. Elon Musk-promoted Space X currently uses kerolox in its Falcon 9 rocket for launching heavy payloads.

“With increase in payload capacity, the advanced GSLV MK III will help Isro cut expenses and save time,” Sivan said. Currently, India uses the services of Arianespace to launch its heavy satellites weighing over 4 tonnes. Last year on December 4, Isro had used the services of Arianespace for launching its heaviest satellite Gsat-11 weighing over 5.7 tonnes from French Guiana.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 07:39

Thsts the biggest news. Finally!! Liquid o2 and kerosene corrects a historical less gain path were forced into in early 80s

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 08:04

Japan quickfire sslv called epsilon

https://youtu.be/xanBJkkBH-A

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Jan 2019 08:35

Singha wrote:Japan quickfire sslv called epsilon

https://youtu.be/xanBJkkBH-A

A more relevant launch this January was successful.

Fireworks start at 30 minutes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 08:55

Yes my video was 2013 it works fine now

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 28 Jan 2019 09:46

Japan had the most obvious dual-use programs for large diameter solid stages. Their frequent cancellation of these very expensive SRB development programs is a sign that they are treading water in these technologies, so they can instantly ramp up to the state-of-the-art, if they tear up the current constitution. For a country with their technological motivation and budgeting, their launch capabilities seem artificially capped like Agni's ranges. Cheen knows that

and unkil of course approves it subtly (as long as it doesnt come out of recessed state)

The Sleeping Beauties of that Wonk portal (Non-Pro Ayatollahs) wakes up only to the threat posed by cryogenic stages of India exploding over their coffee machine in DC.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jan 2019 10:23

hnair wrote:Austin, unless you have some other reasons, you are absolving kerala police officials, who initiated and sustained the whole sordid affair, of any wrong doing.

There was no fight between CBI and IB in this case. CBI came in very late, after courts got into the act. The whole “fight” narrative was again some top official of kerala police’s way to explain out CBI’s “not guilty” findings

You are right in that the Kerala police official went to witch hunt but the initial building of case was done by IB who created the whole facade of Spies penetrating deep into ISRO LPSC facility with the eventual goal to penetrate IN VLS facility , Nambi and few other were made scape goat. IB was not an investigative agency so eventually this went to KP thought it did the initial interrogation with all the accused in order to make a false report against them

Only when the then CBI chief sounded the alarm bell and due to his closeness to PVN ( both were from AP iirc ) that convinced him to let CBI investigate it which found the charges baseless , There was also reports at that time that IB has put the CBI chief under surveillance.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 12:04

the Epsilon has the hallmark of a quick reaction ICBM option should they go all in.
even the mission control is austere and can be set inside a trailer.

http://global.jaxa.jp/projects/rockets/epsilon/
.Innovation of the launch system

For the next-generation solid fuel rocket, we plan to reform the launch system and improve the operation performance to the highest global standard by utilizing innovative ideas far beyond a simple combination of existing technologies. For example, we will reduce the time needed for the operation of ground facilities and launches to about one fourth of the time required for the M-V Launch Vehicle. To do this, we will make the vehicle perform checks onboard and autonomously and reduce the time required for operations on the ground. Ultimately, through internet, we will be able to check and control rockets anywhere in the world simply by using a laptop computer. We are planning to realize the world, where the launch control system is not necessarily at the launch site anymore. Such an innovative concept for a new solid propellant rocket will become a good model for future launch systems involving a liquid fuel rocket.

2.Making rocket launches as simple as daily events
Currently, onboard equipment is custom made to suit each rocket. Assuming that the rocket was a personal computer, onboard equipment for the rocket would correspond to the computer peripherals and are unique to that specific rocket. For our new rocket, we are aiming as much as possible to develop onboard equipment that can be shared with a family of rockets. For example, we are thinking of connecting onboard equipment through a high-speed network. Hence, if we use common interfaces on them, we can freely add or change equipment, or even put them on a different rocket just like computer peripherals. In other words, launching the rocket is just like using a computer. The launch of the rocket will become much easier, just like daily events. This dream era, where we can become much closer to space, is only a few steps away.

length: 24m, weight: 91t, can put 1200kg into LEO orbit.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 12:06

are there any confirmed details of our SSLV for comparing? will be exciting when its launched.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Sat ... ch_Vehicle

the Electron link has a spanish Miura thing also.

we need to build maybe another smaller mini-SSLV in 50t range to loft the micro sats that are now in fashion, fast n cheap

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 28 Jan 2019 18:47

Vips wrote:Isro eyes kerosene to boost GSLV Mk III’s lifting power to 6 tonnes.

Talking to TOI, Isro chairman K Sivan said, “To increase the payload capability of GSLV Mk III from 4 tonnes to 6 tonnes, we are in the process of making some improvements in rocket stages. First, we are working on enhancing the cryogenic stage fuel loading from 25 tonnes to 30 tonnes.

Second, we are also working on changing the core stage L110 — which has 110 tonnes of unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine (UDMH) and dinitrogen tetroxide (N2O4). We want to replace L110 stage with semicryogenic engine that will carry liquefied oxygen and highly refined kerosene called kerolox (aka RP-1) instead of liquefied hydrogen.”

Sivan said, “The first test of the advanced version of Mk III will take place in December 2020. With upgrade in Mk III, we will also have to upgrade the launchpad facility at Sriharikota. We have therefore issued a tender notice recently inviting quotations for infrastructure upgrades at the second launchpad.”

5.5T has now become 6T.
This slide below was a presentation from 2016 here: http://icec26-icmc2016.org/9th%20March%202016.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Jan 2019 19:21

is O2 + Kerosene more tfta than O2 + H2 (which Ariane5 uses) ?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jan 2019 23:14

Singha wrote:is O2 + Kerosene more tfta than O2 + H2 (which Ariane5 uses) ?

O2+H2 has higher Isp I believe but much higher cost and complexity as well from what I understand. Some info here: https://space.stackexchange.com/questio ... uid-oxygen

Experts here can correct my understanding if I'm mistaken.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Jan 2019 00:18

Singha wrote:is O2 + Kerosene more tfta than O2 + H2 (which Ariane5 uses) ?

Less tfta.

Has ISRO tried Liquid CH4 + LOX engine ever..?

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 29 Jan 2019 00:35

Upcoming movie on Nambier ---- Rocketry - Nambie Effect

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2019 00:41

Jay: No, not yet. Next in line after SC.

Neela sir, 4.5 tons using L110 and 6 tons using SC200 was always the maximum payload capability. Like in MkIII, they will start with 5 ton demo, and then optimize their way up to 6.5 tons.

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Jan 2019 01:17

Singha wrote:is O2 + Kerosene more tfta than O2 + H2 (which Ariane5 uses) ?

No. O2+H2 is as TFTA as you can get with current engineering tech.

The article above has some DDM'itis.

Also ISRO needs to go for CH4+O2 (Metholox), mastering that is a must.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 29 Jan 2019 10:57

Metholox 10 ton engine is being built by ISRO.
The advantage of kerosene is easier handling but lower ISP. Soot formation makes reuse difficult if not impossible so metholox or H2 LOX will have to be used in case reusability is plsnned.
H2 LOX has the highest ISP but is costly as it needs pumping of cryogenic temp hydrogen adding to complexity.

For lower stages though SRB are having lower ISP they are energy dense and cheap so are used when going through the dense atmosphere. Same for kerosene. ( Basically cost driven )

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 29 Jan 2019 11:00

Looks like SSLV will launch at 8600$/Kg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Jan 2019 12:24

for laymen, can someone list out the various types of liquid and SRB engine fuel mixture the india/cheen/ESA/rus/japan/US uses.
please mark it in order of tftaness/tech curve/cost so we may get a sense of where we stand and where we need to go.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 29 Jan 2019 14:07

Indranil wrote:Jay: No, not yet. Next in line after SC.
Neela sir, 4.5 tons using L110 and 6 tons using SC200 was always the maximum payload capability. Like in MkIII, they will start with 5 ton demo, and then optimize their way up to 6.5 tons.

Thanks for the clarification. Needless to say but for completeness, that payload is for GTO.

I guess with ISRO (a) laying launch vehicle roadmap for higher payloads & (b) clarifying that our comm. satellites are reaching 7Tonnes, it puts an earlier BRF discussion (" 4T is enough, sats will be miniaturized " ) to rest.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 29 Jan 2019 14:11

Please move it to the newbie thread is necessary.

Question: Is the O2 in the SCE actively cooled in-flight? Or is it cooled on earth actively and during launch left for the passive insulation to handle?

wasu · Post by **wasu** » 29 Jan 2019 14:11

This Indian startup is cutting the cost of putting satellites in space, making them last longer

https://yourstory.com/2019/01/bellatrix ... ace-travel

..Today, its claim to fame is an indigenous electric propulsion system for satellites, called Microwave Plasma Thrusters (MPT). Through the MPT, Bellatrix offers its customers the ability to take bigger payloads into space at a reasonable cost.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 29 Jan 2019 16:51

Neela wrote:Please move it to the newbie thread is necessary.

Question: Is the O2 in the SCE actively cooled in-flight? Or is it cooled on earth actively and during launch left for the passive insulation to handle?

O2 is liquefied on ground and filled in pressurized and insulated tanks onboard, just before launch. There is no cooling onboard of any sort.

We did have a concept SSTO called AVAATAR long time back which would have gathered O2 from atmosphere on its way to space.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Jan 2019 22:55

prasannasimha wrote:Metholox 10 ton engine is being built by ISRO.

This is great news. Completely flew under my radar. Details please.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 30 Jan 2019 10:02

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... KET_ENGINE

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 30 Jan 2019 10:03

Dr Somnath in one interview also referred to it.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 30 Jan 2019 10:09

https://iafastro.directory/iac/paper/id/38210/summary/

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 30 Jan 2019 11:48

Meteorological & Oceanographic Satellite Data Archival Centre
Space Applications Centre, ISRO
https://www.mosdac.gov.in/
https://www.mosdac.gov.in/sites/default ... cpdf_0.pdf

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Jan 2019 12:03

Indranil wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:Metholox 10 ton engine is being built by ISRO.
This is great news. Completely flew under my radar. Details please.

I recall reading this a long time ago. Article from DLR, Germany
Comparison of Methane vs RP1

https://www.dlr.de/Portaldata/55/Resour ... 12prop.pdf

The aim of this study was to compare and assess the
merits of methane and kerosene as propellants for a
reusable booster stage. Some initial findings confirmed
already frequently cited statements, e.g. that the
specific impulse of a LOX / methane motor is about
10 s higher than for a LOX / kerosene engine with the
same cycle. The comparison of the performance of
both propellant combinations for a complete vehicle
revealed however interesting new results. The study
showed that the advantage of the higher energetic
content of methane was counterbalanced by an
increased motor mass and an increased booster size,
hence higher aerodynamic drag and increased mass.
The payload performances of the reusable kerosene and
methane booster are therefore almost identical with
some edge for kerosene. In view of the increased size
and dry mass of a reusable methane booster stage, one
can expect a cost disadvantage for CH4 from a launch
vehicle system level point of view

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Jan 2019 12:08

Prasanna Sir, the DLR paper refers to coking limit as one of the thermodynamic properties. Is this property related to soot formation?