Indian Space Program: News & Discussion - Sept 2016

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Jul 2018 21:32

On development crew bailout test.

(a) No Sir. Crew bailout test is not planned. However, as part of development of critical technologies, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is planning to conduct a Pad Abort Test.

(b) Yes Sir. The Pad Abort Test will demonstrate the effectiveness of the Escape System for safe escape in case the launch is aborted at the launch pad. In this test, the test article consists of an Unoccupied Module and an Escape System, with a height of 14 meter and lift-off mass of 12.5 ton. It will be propelled with the help of quick-acting solid motors and upon reaching a safe altitude and range, the unoccupied module separates and safely lands in the sea with the help of a parachute based deceleration system. The test will be conducted at Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ISRO/comments/5et61z/parliamentary_qa_25_nov_2016_queries_on_crew/

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Amber G. » 04 Jul 2018 22:10

chetak wrote:
rsingh wrote:Chinese system is supposed to be most advance (as per my Navigation teacher at yacht cub). GPS handheld device can send signal to sats like (SOS and other urgent communication).


There are wrist watches that have been doing this for years. Available freely and commercially.

Just to be clear - GPS sats communication to GPS receiver units in cars/boats is *only* one way. GPS sats only transmits and do *not* receive any signals from phones/gps_units/watches etc.

Hand held units can get exact location but to send that (SOS/urgent communications ityadi) information they need other connectivity (like radio/cellphone or even sat phones using other sats) but GPS satellite system can not be used for this purpose.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Amber G. » 04 Jul 2018 22:21

chetak wrote:
Raveen wrote:
The non-military grade signal open for general use isn't that accurate. Only the US mil has access to the super accurate signal, no other entity or country does.


NATO does, no??

To be clear - as I said before (check out my earlier message or any good source), for US GPS systems, there is practically no difference and "non-military grade signal is NOT less accurate. (President Clinton's order stopped scrambling satellite signals and it paved the way for civilians to use GPS with the same accuracy as the military had)

(This is not to say that US may not "jam" or disrupt the process in times of war etc)

The typical accuracy (of about 5 meter) in cell-phones or ordinary units is pretty close to theoretical limit anyway.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby chetak » 04 Jul 2018 22:41

Amber G. wrote:
chetak wrote:
There are wrist watches that have been doing this for years. Available freely and commercially.

Just to be clear - GPS sats communication to GPS receiver units in cars/boats is *only* one way. GPS sats only transmits and do *not* receive any signals from phones/gps_units/watches etc.


Hand held units can get exact location but to send that (SOS/urgent communications ityadi) information they need other connectivity (like radio/cellphone or even sat phones using other sats) but GPS satellite system can not be used for this purpose.


Amber G. maam,

There is one well known wrist watch brand that sends out a signal when required and this signal can be picked up by a satellite.

Don't need (like radio/cellphone or even sat phones using other sats) ityadi. Just the watch only.

Image

Image

https://youtu.be/IwrAkNoNYbo



Breitling's original Emergency watch first launched back in 1995 and was able to broadcast a distress signal on the 121.5 MHz analog band allowing ships, planes, and other vehicles to track it. But if your approximate location wasn't already known, it made locating the signal a bit tricky. So Breitling is introducing an upgraded version of the watch—the Emergency II—that adds the ability to send a distress signal to satellites circling overhead, so no matter where on Earth you're lost, you can be found.

The Emergency II still broadcasts a 121.5 MHz analog signal, but that alternates with the new 406 MHz digital signal which can be tracked by the five COSPAS-SARSAT search and rescue satellites. To ensure the signal isn't accidentally triggered, the user has to pull out a set of long antennas on either side of the watch, and the emergency signals will alternately broadcast for up to 24 hours with the Emergency II's built-in rechargeable battery.

Made from titanium so that it's all but guaranteed to survive whatever emergency situation you find yourself in, the Emergency II will cost you just under $19,000. An expensive investment, for sure, but one you'll be glad you made if and when it saves your life one day.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Amber G. » 05 Jul 2018 00:36

chetak wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Just to be clear - GPS sats communication to GPS receiver units in cars/boats is *only* one way. GPS sats only transmits and do *not* receive any signals from phones/gps_units/watches etc.


Hand held units can get exact location but to send that (SOS/urgent communications ityadi) information they need other connectivity (like radio/cellphone or even sat phones using other sats) but GPS satellite system can not be used for this purpose.


Amber G. maam,

There is one well known wrist watch brand that sends out a signal when required and this signal can be picked up by a satellite.
<snip>


Chetakji - I think you are missing the point, so let me clarify it..
No one is arguing that wrist watches can not send the signal (radio's have been doing that for 100 years or so), it is just that GPS sats are NOT the one which are involved.

As said before, and I think I was very clear - this units may use other radio channels (or even other satellites) but "GPS" part is irreverent is "sending" -- only thing helpful is that they now know the location much more accurately so they can ask for help.

For example from your own quote:

Breitling's original Emergency watch first launched back in 1995 and was able to broadcast a distress signal on the 121.5 MHz analog band allowing ships, planes, and other vehicles to track it.


See the distress signal in this case is old fashioned analog band..

But if your approximate location wasn't already known, it made locating the signal a bit tricky. So Breitling is introducing an upgraded version of the watch—the Emergency II—that adds the ability to send a distress signal to satellites circling overhead, so no matter where on Earth you're lost, you can be found.

The Emergency II still broadcasts a 121.5 MHz analog signal, but that alternates with the new 406 MHz digital signal which can be tracked by the five COSPAS-SARSAT search and rescue satellites. To ensure the signal isn't accidentally triggered, the user has to pull out a set of long antennas on either side of the watch, and the emergency signals will alternately broadcast for up to 24 hours with the Emergency II's built-in rechargeable battery.


Again for communications it is using old fashioned radio, in addition to search and rescue sats (like COPAS etc)

Again thanks for interesting read. My point was GPS system is passive, one way communication from sat to earth units.--- it is like "find my friend" on iphone ..GPS part help locate your position but "informing" it to your friends is done by phone network.

Hope this helps.

****
One reason I have posted technical (physics wise) details here is the "passive" system is really very complex and most people do not know exactly how GPS works. Many say that the satellite keeps an eye on each car and that's how it tells where the car is (not true). Others say that it measures "distances from three sats" and then triangulate -- this is also not strictly true, as the exact distance between car and sat is not possible to calculate directly with current system. All you calculate is the "difference" between two "distances" -- and know property of hyperbola to find the distance. Mathematically it is quite interesting. (details one can see in any good reference).

Regards.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby chetak » 05 Jul 2018 02:11

^^^^^^^


Amber G. maam,

You are right, as always. :)

I missed the point.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vamsi31 » 05 Jul 2018 10:10


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 10:14

Pad abort test is done akwats with a full mock up of the crew module. The abort tower fires and pulls the crew capsule from the base qnd parachutes depooy to land the capsule.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 10:15

Pad abort test is done always with a full mock up of the crew module. The abort tower fires and pulls the crew capsule from the base qnd parachutes depooy to land the capsule.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vamsi31 » 05 Jul 2018 10:16


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 05 Jul 2018 10:27

Vamsi31 wrote:https://www.isro.gov.in/update/05-jul-2018/successful-flight-testing-of-crew-escape-system-technology-demonstrator

Official confirmation of success!!


Text and pictures from the Link

ISRO carried out a major technology demonstration today (July 05, 2018), the first in a series of tests to qualify a Crew Escape System, which is a critical technology relevant for human spaceflight. The Crew Escape System is an emergency escape measure designed to quickly pull the crew module along with the astronauts to a safe distance from the launch vehicle in the event of a launch abort. The first test (Pad Abort Test) demonstrated the safe recovery of the crew module in case of any exigency at the launch pad.

After a smooth countdown of 5 hours, the Crew Escape System along with the simulated crew module with a mass of 12.6 tonnes, lifted off at 07.00 AM (IST) at the opening of the launch window from its pad at Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota today. The test was over in 259 seconds, during which the Crew Escape System along with crew module soared skyward, then arced out over the Bay of Bengal and floated back to Earth under its parachutes about 2.9 km from Sriharikota.

The crew module reached an altitude of nearly 2.7 km under the power of its seven specifically designed quick acting solid motors to take away the crew module to a safe distance without exceeding the safe g-levels. Nearly 300 sensors recorded various mission performance parameters during the test flight. Three recovery boats are being exercised to retrieve the module as part of the recovery protocol.


Image
Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Amber G. » 05 Jul 2018 19:23

^^^ Also informative read is nasaspaceflights dot com as given by others..
ISRO conducts pad abort test for Indian human space flight program
From above a historic video:
The test demonstrates a launch pad abort, where a problem before or at the moment of liftoff requires that the crew be ejected to safety from their rocket. This is the scenario in which the escape system of a Soviet Soyuz 7K-ST spacecraft saved the lives of cosmonauts Vladimir Titov and Gennady Strekalov, the only time an escape mechanism has so far been called upon during an actual manned mission.

The Soyuz incident, which occurred in September 1983, came as the cosmonauts were preparing for launch to the Salyut 7 space station aboard a mission that would have been designated Soyuz T-10 had it reached orbit. Ninety seconds before the planned liftoff, one of the Soyuz-U rocket’s boosters began leaking propellant onto the launch pad. This ignited, and the fire quickly spread to the rocket.
Hampered by the fire, which had eaten through the primary communications lines to the vehicle, ground controllers were able to send a backup radio signal to activate the abort system, carrying the crew to safety in their Descent Module just seconds before the rest of the vehicle exploded.

A launch escape system can also protect the crew against a failure during the early stages of ascent. Like Soyuz, as well as the US Mercury, Apollo and Orion spacecraft and China’s Shenzhou, ISRO’s abort system uses a tower structure mounted at the top of the vehicle, with small but powerful motors that fire to pull the spacecraft away from the rocket.


You tube video of that event is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=UyFF4cpMVag

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Jul 2018 21:54

Not that it is very important, of course, but any bitching and moaning( "Rhona Drona) from the usual group about ISRO's achievement? The UK usually tops the charts on this activity. Canada can be pretty bad too. Two years ago, when India conducted a mini-shuttle launch to test technologies for a future space shuttle, there were some pretty crude, petty and shallow comments on the CBC website. Australia is sour on these matters as well. Incidentally, we never hear what Cambodia, Mongolia, Venezuela, Ghana, Bulgaria, Papua New Guinea or Tanzania think of these achievements. My feeling is that it's quite favourable.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 22:15

Image

Note that the crew capsule now has windows and entry door this time

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby pankajs » 05 Jul 2018 22:27

Parthu Potluri @Parthu_Potluri

Snapshots of a Presentation by @isro 's S. Somanath, director of VSSC, from the India side event at this year's Toulouse Space Show. Glimpses of India's future launch vehicles, propulsion, and much more! See the whole presentation at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xw4ng1wyhds3 ... 2.MOV?dl=0 …pic.twitter.com/cHdF0Wof57

Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Jul 2018 22:39

prasannasimha wrote:Image

Note that the crew capsule now has windows and entry door this time

And lattice control surfaces!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 22:48

https://twitter.com/Prasannasimha/status/1014919640907067392

Interesting snapshots from that lecture of Dr Somnath

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 22:51

Image

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Indranil » 05 Jul 2018 23:32

pankajs wrote:
Parthu Potluri @Parthu_Potluri

Snapshots of a Presentation by @isro 's S. Somanath, director of VSSC, from the India side event at this year's Toulouse Space Show. Glimpses of India's future launch vehicles, propulsion, and much more! See the whole presentation at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6xw4ng1wyhds3 ... 2.MOV?dl=0 …pic.twitter.com/cHdF0Wof57

Image

Wow. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this. A few things that really caught my eye:

1. GSLV Mk2 payload increase to 3 tons. That would require changes to the CUS
2. More details on the SSLV
3. Repurposing the L40 stage to make a carrier vehicle for various test mission and spent stage recovery test missions. This will be a step up from the sounding rockets and the PSOM based carrier vehicles with larger capacity and throttle-ability.
4. Progress on the electric propulsion.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 05 Jul 2018 23:51

Second image does not look like crew module but CARE experiment as there are no grid fins etc

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby PratikDas » 06 Jul 2018 01:46

prasannasimha wrote:Second image does not look like crew module but CARE experiment as there are no grid fins etc

The actual crew capsule has heatshields and can survive re-entry while the crew-escape module does not. The crew capsule sits within the crew-escape module. What we've just seen is not only the successful test of the crew-escape module but also the successful detachment of the crew capsule from the crew-escape module.

Image

Reference: http://www.astrowatch.net/2013/08/human-space-flight-mission-off-isro.html

And you can see this picture in the bottom-left of the screenshot you posted.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Indranil » 06 Jul 2018 03:51

Are the ion thrusters an ISRO inhouse project or the follow on of the Bellatrix-designed thrusters?

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Jul 2018 08:10

They are ISRO's own. Bellatrix is still designing one with ISRO's inputs whereas ISRO already has ones under testing snd some in use

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby dinesha » 06 Jul 2018 12:01

From the above link
Image


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby dinesha » 06 Jul 2018 12:08

VIDEO :: Flight test of crew escape system - Technology Demonstrator Lift of video
https://www.isro.gov.in/flight-test-of- ... t-of-video

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby JTull » 06 Jul 2018 14:08

Nice video!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby rsingh » 06 Jul 2018 18:56

chetak wrote:
Amber G. wrote:
Just to be clear - GPS sats communication to GPS receiver units in cars/boats is *only* one way. GPS sats only transmits and do *not* receive any signals from phones/gps_units/watches etc.


Hand held units can get exact location but to send that (SOS/urgent communications ityadi) information they need other connectivity (like radio/cellphone or even sat phones using other sats) but GPS satellite system can not be used for this purpose.


Amber G. maam,

There is one well known wrist watch brand that sends out a signal when required and this signal can be picked up by a satellite.
<snip>

oops, my apologies for any rough post in past.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Vips » 06 Jul 2018 21:35

Indian Space Research Organisation on hunt for another Rakesh Sharma.


The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) is roping in Indian Air Force pilots to identify the first set of astronauts for a human space flight. IAF pilot Rakesh Sharma is the only Indian to have travelled in space.

Isro tested on Thursday a crew escape system (CES), which is a capsule that ejects from a rocket if it explodes on the launch pad.

The CES is a series of technology building blocks that Isro is developing for an eventual mission to carry astronauts to space. It is a crucial emergency escape measure designed to quickly pull the spacecraft that houses the astronauts to a safe distance from the launch vehicle in the event of a rocket explosion.

Isro has so far built a capsule that can re-enter from space, space suits, food for astronauts in collaboration with Defence Research and Development Organisation, and is working on an astronaut-training facility on the outskirts of Bengaluru.

However, the agency also needs to build the right environmental control facilities that can house three astronauts in the capsule.

So far, the government, which has granted Rs 145 crore to do initial studies for a manned mission to space, is yet to approve the project that could potentially cost over $2 billion. “This is a developmental activity that eventually will be used for a human spaceflight,” said AS Kiran Kumar, former chairman of Isro. He said a human space flight is an expensive proposition and lots of space faring activities could be done through robotic missions or unmanned flights.

India has been working on human space flight for over a decade, but it still does not have a rocket powerful enough to carry astronauts into space.

Isro is operationalising its geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle Mk-3 (GSLV-MK-3) later this year. This rocket could potentially carry around eight tonnes spacecraft to lower earth orbit. However, it has to be human rated or make it so safe that the possibility of error could be one in a million.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 06 Jul 2018 23:13

Congrats to ISRO for the successful test- with one significant reservation! The landing evidently was a hard one, with the parachutes separating before the capsule struck the water. This is not ideally supposed to happen, right? However, this is just a test, and most of it went smoothly! There will be several more trials, where they can fix these supposed glithches.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 07 Jul 2018 00:16

The test is of parachute separation at a predetermined height so it is not a "hard one" The parachutes cut off at a predetermined height. The cut off can be made to do so at the required height as determined by telemetry. Remember this is a test flight and the crew module is also being tested for splash down. Also the parachutes are to cutoff to prevent the large parachutes swathing the crew reentry module

Very likely this would be also a test of a passive landing alleviation system (typically a honeycomb structure just above the heat shield that is just like crush zone of a car taking out the impact from the occupants

Landing is typically done around 28-32 feet per second.(25- 30 miles per hour approx) so actual landing is actually pretty much "Hard"
remember that the actual splat down of the Soyuz is also so hard that the crew have special padded seats conforming to heir body specially designed to reduce impact and spread impact over the largest possible area of their body to prevent injury.The retro rockets for the soyuz splat down occur just one second before landing.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Indranil » 07 Jul 2018 00:24

Prasanna Sir, from the video it is clear that those “windows” are actually rocket exhaust ports.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 07 Jul 2018 00:42

Yes I was thinking so too on seeing the video and they may also be a part of the high altitude escape motor assembly. If you look at both Saturn V and Soyuz they have no windows The capsule though has it. With the

Image

Image

I remember that the abort systems are such that the astr/cosmonauts had no idea what is going on outside and when the Russian pad abort was done they were blissfully unaware that the rocket was exploding under them!!

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 07 Jul 2018 09:36

The design of tbe crew escape module is just like the Soyuz. Note Soyiz also has the same grid fins/ lattice control surface

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Kakarat » 08 Jul 2018 01:30

PSLV D2 Documentary with lot details of PSLV development and shots of SLV & ASLV launches, stage testing and stage separation ground testing


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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 08 Jul 2018 21:16

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/soyuz_sas.html

Worth reading and also lessons from the Soyuz actual pad abort that occurred(Only one to ever happen) and how the cable relay system did not function because it got melted and the second backup system via a radio signal(required two people to push tow buttons within 5 seconds on receiving a code) was used to activate the crew abort system

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Indranil » 08 Jul 2018 21:22

The Indian system uses wireless communication to start with.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby Neshant » 09 Jul 2018 01:30

<POOF>
Last edited by nachiket on 10 Jul 2018 02:45, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: off-topic

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby nachiket » 10 Jul 2018 02:46

Neshant, that post had nothing to do with the "Indian Space Programme". Please post it in the International Nuclear News thread.

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Re: Indian Space Programme Discussion - Sept 2016

Postby prasannasimha » 10 Jul 2018 09:29

Indranil wrote:The Indian system uses wireless communication to start with.

I was reading up on pad abort testing and the first pad abort test of tge Apollo crew capsule was placed on a booster. This had 3 wires running and if rwo of 3 wires broke it would initiate the abort automatically. The little joe booster went inro an uncontrollable spin due to some defect and started breaking up and the abort command was initiated automatically. This was a succesful abort test with a an unintentional faikure of the booster !
This highlights the importance of redundancy in these systems.
If you see the crew capsule I think those linear ridges hold interstage connections in addition to wireless coms. ( you can see thise very well in the PSLV and Agni missiles too ).

Looks like once they have all the respective units in place tge formal sanction form human space flight will be given.
Taking crew capsule and service module etc we will need at least 15 Tons to LEO.


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