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China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 19 Apr 2017 21:05

A while ago I had posted this image. It should give the discerning viewer of what threats China faces or imagines that it faces. If they build 100 DDGs and send them towards India what exactly would they hope to achieve?

SoKo, Japan, Taiwan and the US in all 3 places and more. And Vietnam down south.

Image
Last edited by shiv on 19 Apr 2017 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby RohitAM » 19 Apr 2017 21:07

^^I can completely agree with that, Shiv. Thank you.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 19 Apr 2017 22:43

chola wrote:
Singha wrote:http://plarealtalk.com/2015/12/11/chinese-navy-vls/

china strong universal vls capable of both hot and cold launch and 3 depths


Holy clap! That is velly nice informative piece on VLS.

Seriously, not much propaganda but lots of details and reasoning behind hot and cold launches and sizes of launch tubes.

Thanks for posting it. It makes me look at the 052D in a different light. I thought they were just shitting them out for numbers. That universal cold/hot launch VLS is an eye opener especially on a ship that is mass produced.


well,i am surprised that you did not know it untill just mow.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 19 Apr 2017 23:31

RohitAM wrote:^^I can completely agree with that, Shiv. Thank you.



Why are you thanking him for? I made the same argument years ago.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 19 Apr 2017 23:36

Liu wrote:
chola wrote:
Holy clap! That is velly nice informative piece on VLS.

Seriously, not much propaganda but lots of details and reasoning behind hot and cold launches and sizes of launch tubes.

Thanks for posting it. It makes me look at the 052D in a different light. I thought they were just shitting them out for numbers. That universal cold/hot launch VLS is an eye opener especially on a ship that is mass produced.


well,i am surprised that you did not know it untill just mow.


I didn't know because you are practically useless for any hard intelligence. All I get from you is some idiotic theories about landing battalions in Africa when your chickenshit army had not fought in four decades. Okay three decades, if we are generous and count the armor division running over college kids in Beijing.
Last edited by SSridhar on 20 Apr 2017 07:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Chola, the same can be conveyed less offensively. Let us engage our Chinese friends more purposefully.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby RohitAM » 20 Apr 2017 00:13

chola wrote:
RohitAM wrote:^^I can completely agree with that, Shiv. Thank you.



Why are you thanking him for? I made the same argument years ago.


Calma, saar, calma...I might have missed your earlier posts on this...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Vivek K » 20 Apr 2017 02:37

Chola, please use better language. And do not underestimate your opposition. I hope the Indian armed forces don't make that mistake.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2017 06:33


chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 20 Apr 2017 21:55

Vivek K wrote:Chola, please use better language. And do not underestimate your opposition. I hope the Indian armed forces don't make that mistake.


Hardly. I give them more props in a realistic manner than any of the jingos here. One would have to be a fool not to acknowledge the stuff they are building. This giant SSN shop in the post above me for example.

BUT I also know realistically that their warfighting culture and history is weak. They have no experience in modern warfare and in fact are, in American parlance, chickenshit when it comes to fighting.

But even more importantly they are geo-politically and geographically hemmed in and away from India. They do not and cannot bring much force to bear on India. The chances of war is low because, again, there will be too chickenshit to actually fight. But they will build and the numbers will intimidate but only a rump sum of those can ever be used against India.

So the DEFINING theme to any realistic war scenario, including our all important border and the IOR, is that we will ALWAYS be able to bring the preponderance of men and material to the battlefield.

Any refusal to admit the above is mindless dhoti-shivering. Full stop.

That said, I am tire of Liu not the chini military watch. In fact, I've been enjoying chini military watching the few months. The PRC runs a nice propaganda show where they tease you with rumors, then with bits and pieces of pictures from people supposedly climbing over fences and and finally the climax in an ejaculation of photos during full exposure. There is always a nice payoff at the end.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby RohitAM » 21 Apr 2017 00:05

I agree. In the case of a "hot" war, the Indian Armed Forces can bring a lot to bear on the Tibet/China border and immediate hinterland in terms of military resources and strength. A sudden "Cold Start" doctrine implementation, if successful, can probably see a lot of our forces transversing towards Lhasa before any meaningful Chinese response can be put together. The only problem is that the Chinese bring to the battlefield a lot of their CM's and BM's, which they would use to target our forces, FOB's, staging areas, and the logistics chain without a shred of remorse. Do we have that kind of defensive capability to prevent the sort of damage which a few hundred of these missiles can inflict upon us?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 21 Apr 2017 08:33

RohitAM wrote:I agree. In the case of a "hot" war, the Indian Armed Forces can bring a lot to bear on the Tibet/China border and immediate hinterland in terms of military resources and strength. A sudden "Cold Start" doctrine implementation, if successful, can probably see a lot of our forces transversing towards Lhasa before any meaningful Chinese response can be put together. The only problem is that the Chinese bring to the battlefield a lot of their CM's and BM's, which they would use to target our forces, FOB's, staging areas, and the logistics chain without a shred of remorse. Do we have that kind of defensive capability to prevent the sort of damage which a few hundred of these missiles can inflict upon us?


Most of their CM/BM assets point east and every one they use on India lessen their ability make stake to their core claims in the ECS, SCS and Taiwan. Those are existential risks to them.

I don't see them being able to tap that force much unless India elevates itself to an existential threat (like invading and splitting Tibet off.) At that point, conventional missiles would be the least of our worries.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 21 Apr 2017 09:58

other than fanboy art resembling the virginia is there any reliable data on the 095SSN?

till date 2 x 093 SSN (in servvice) and 3 x 093B SSN ( either inducted or in final stages of fitting out) are the main threats. the B has a small hump behind sail for VLS

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Manish_P » 21 Apr 2017 12:29

But even more importantly they are geo-politically and geographically hemmed in and away from India. They do not and cannot bring much force to bear on India. The chances of war is low because, again, there will be too chickenshit to actually fight.


Cue - Usage of the rent-boy

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 21 Apr 2017 17:18

Singha wrote:other than fanboy art resembling the virginia is there any reliable data on the 095SSN?

till date 2 x 093 SSN (in servvice) and 3 x 093B SSN ( either inducted or in final stages of fitting out) are the main threats. the B has a small hump behind sail for VLS

the main threats are not PLAN nuke sub fleet in service,but chinese huge dockyards.

Image

http://www.lertcon1.com/p/china-is-buil ... t.html?m=1
it is reported that it is the world largest nuke sub workshop. 5-6 nuke subs can be assembled there at the same time.

even if china were not to set up some more workshops,china can easily produce 12 nuke subs in 3 years.


china's power lies in its huge manufacture base.
it can flood its enemy with its enormous industry output,just as USA flooded german and japan during WW II.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 22 Apr 2017 08:37

Liu wrote:china's power lies in its huge manufacture base.
it can flood its enemy with its enormous industry output,just as USA flooded german and japan during WW II.

Germany and Japan also had huge manufacturing bases - so size of manufacturing is like saying "mine is bigger"

I saw an interesting news item yesterday - from a Chinese news source that made a boast exactly like the one made here. The writer warned India "If it comes to power then India does not stand a chance against China - but the idea is not to use that power"

That made me laugh. What is the point of power that is not utilized? China needs to teach someone a lesson.

But it also made me interested in Chinese psyche almost to the point of stating a new thread. The Chinese display a unique psyche - a unique type of argument about themselves and their allies versus those whom they see as competitors or underlings. Most of it is hot air. mocking and bluster but the Chinese have made military moves in the past. As one analyst said - the Chinese can declare a defeat as victory too so there is no point arguing against the Chinese form of rhetoric.

The arguments I have seen from Liu are similar to the overall picture about Chins being portrayed.

We are big. we are strong. No one can touch us. We can afford to beat the best. We will take what we want.


This picture comes out of the media and people such as Liu. The actual Chinese leadership is more circumspect but they do everything to let China be seen in this bullying, dominating way. As always it takes two hands to clap. Every nation threatened by China will spend more on defending against any rash moves by China.

It is likely that the Chinese will used exactly the same stupid argument made by the West about third world nations. "Don't spend on arms, spend on feeding your people". This argument has been used about China too and the Chinese obviously don;t believe their own argument when it comes to dealing with NoKo and Pakistan. And there is a convenient justification for that "We Chinese are so powerful - we will do what we like"

Here is a comment that has appeared today on a video on one of my YouTube channels about Jaguar accidents:
hahaha fighter jets arent for that side of the world...nor are you "super fighter pilots"


Ironically - right here on BRF we have heard people making arguments about the US in exactly the same way as Liu makes about China. Why blame Liu or China. he is only doing what the US has done to everyone else.

after all haven't we heard, right here on BRF by the RahRah America people in the late 90s and early 2000s:
The US is a superpower. It will act it its interests

Don't do as the US does. Do as it says.


China is showing exactly the same cockiness as the US and we would be hypocritical if we can't see this.

Interestingly - one argument used by people who claim that India will be such a great supapowa that both the US and Chin are trying to keep us down is the way Pakistan has been used. Whatever the truth or otherwise of that argument - it is a fact that both the US and China have opposed india via their proxy Pakistan. Our bad luck maybe - but I digress.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Eric Leiderman » 22 Apr 2017 21:12

How about naming writing an open letter to PM asking him to name Santipath (the road in N.Delhi where Chinese embassy is located) as Dalai Lama Road. Would be hilarous if they had to change their letterhead to reflect same.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 06:06

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:china's power lies in its huge manufacture base.
it can flood its enemy with its enormous industry output,just as USA flooded german and japan during WW II.

Germany and Japan also had huge manufacturing bases - so size of manufacturing is like saying "mine is bigger"

you underestimate Usa's edge on other powers during WWII.

During WWII, USA's industry added value=Germany's +UK's+Soviet's,while germany,Soviet and UK had the 2nd,3th and 4th largest industy base.

as a whole,
USA was the sole member of the top elite league
Germany,Soviet and Uk was were in a league of tier2 powers.

[qoute]
I saw an interesting news item yesterday - from a Chinese news source that made a boast exactly like the one made here. The writer warned India "If it comes to power then India does not stand a chance against China - but the idea is not to use that power"

That made me laugh. What is the point of power that is not utilized? China needs to teach someone a lesson.

But it also made me interested in Chinese psyche almost to the point of stating a new thread. The Chinese display a unique psyche - a unique type of argument about themselves and their allies versus those whom they see as competitors or underlings. Most of it is hot air. mocking and bluster but the Chinese have made military moves in the past. As one analyst said - the Chinese can declare a defeat as victory too so there is no point arguing against the Chinese form of rhetoric.

The arguments I have seen from Liu are similar to the overall picture about Chins being portrayed.

We are big. we are strong. No one can touch us. We can afford to beat the best. We will take what we want.


This picture comes out of the media and people such as Liu. The actual Chinese leadership is more circumspect but they do everything to let China be seen in this bullying, dominating way. As always it takes two hands to clap. Every nation threatened by China will spend more on defending against any rash moves by China.

It is likely that the Chinese will used exactly the same stupid argument made by the West about third world nations. "Don't spend on arms, spend on feeding your people". This argument has been used about China too and the Chinese obviously don;t believe their own argument when it comes to dealing with NoKo and Pakistan. And there is a convenient justification for that "We Chinese are so powerful - we will do what we like"

Here is a comment that has appeared today on a video on one of my YouTube channels about Jaguar accidents:
hahaha fighter jets arent for that side of the world...nor are you "super fighter pilots"


Ironically - right here on BRF we have heard people making arguments about the US in exactly the same way as Liu makes about China. Why blame Liu or China. he is only doing what the US has done to everyone else.

after all haven't we heard, right here on BRF by the RahRah America people in the late 90s and early 2000s:
The US is a superpower. It will act it its interests

Don't do as the US does. Do as it says.


China is showing exactly the same cockiness as the US and we would be hypocritical if we can't see this.

Interestingly - one argument used by people who claim that India will be such a great supapowa that both the US and Chin are trying to keep us down is the way Pakistan has been used. Whatever the truth or otherwise of that argument - it is a fact that both the US and China have opposed india via their proxy Pakistan. Our bad luck maybe - but I digress.


the state with the golbal largest industry base has to be considered seriously,whether it is china today or pre~WW USA .

don't underestimate the workshops and shipyards of the the global largest industry state,even if most of those workshops/shipyards are not producing weapons.

otherwise,it will repeat the mistake of German and JApan during WW.

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 06:40

Liu wrote:.

don't underestimate the workshops and shipyards of the the global largest industry state,even if most of those workshops/shipyards are not producing weapons.

otherwise,it will repeat the mistake of German and JApan during WW.

People who lecture me and tell me "dont under estimate this or that" make me laugh because they are talking complete rubbish and imagining that I am thinking something and that I should think like they think. This is childish.

Germany, Japan and Britain were superpowers before WW2. They got so badly hurt that they stopped being superpowers leaving the industrial base of the US and later USSR at the top.

In China screws with India they are going to get so badly hurt that only the USA is going to gain. If China and the US face off, others will gain. So what you are doing is simply blowing hot air. I have been looking at infrastructure near the Indian border. The Chinese would get badly hurt there. And in the east - if you guys start a war - the US will suffer the least and India will not suffer at all. You are allowed to boast because boasting is normal - but unless your nation actually hits someone - everyone will soon find out that you are a paper tiger.

In the world of diplomacy if anyone says "I am great" no one objects as long as he is well behaved. But he misbehaves he will get it back. Your nation has been misbehaving and will soon reap the luscious fruits of that.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 07:21

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:.

don't underestimate the workshops and shipyards of the the global largest industry state,even if most of those workshops/shipyards are not producing weapons.

otherwise,it will repeat the mistake of German and JApan during WW.

People who lecture me and tell me "dont under estimate this or that" make me laugh because they are talking complete rubbish and imagining that I am thinking something and that I should think like they think. This is childish.

Germany, Japan and Britain were superpowers before WW2. They got so badly hurt that they stopped being superpowers leaving the industrial base of the US and later USSR at the top.

In China screws with India they are going to get so badly hurt that only the USA is going to gain. If China and the US face off, others will gain. So what you are doing is simply blowing hot air. I have been looking at infrastructure near the Indian border. The Chinese would get badly hurt there. And in the east - if you guys start a war - the US will suffer the least and India will not suffer at all. You are allowed to boast because boasting is normal - but unless your nation actually hits someone - everyone will soon find out that you are a paper tiger.

In the world of diplomacy if anyone says "I am great" no one objects as long as he is well behaved. But he misbehaves he will get it back. Your nation has been misbehaving and will soon reap the luscious fruits of that.


are you kidding me?

before WWii,

Japan industry base was only 1/10 of USA's.
german/soviet/uk was 1/3 of USA'S.

was japan a superpower? when its industry was even in the same league?

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 07:29

Liu wrote:are you kidding me?

No.


Liu wrote:before WWii,

Japan industry base was only 1/10 of USA's.
german/soviet/uk was 1/3 of USA'S.

was japan a superpower? with SUCH A POOR INDUSTRY BASE?


Before WW2 Japan had more aircraft carriers and submarines than China has today. Assuming that they were still not good enough - it goes to show what a medium industrial power can kick multiple great power asses and still survive as an industrial power after being nuked.

China has done nothing but build stuff - a lot of it copied and no public information on performance. Too much noise. Not enough substance. Name one conflict (other than terrorism with China make AK 47) where Chinese weapons have done well
Last edited by shiv on 23 Apr 2017 07:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby NRao » 23 Apr 2017 07:34


Liu
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 08:20

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:are you kidding me?

No.


Liu wrote:before WWii,

Japan industry base was only 1/10 of USA's.
german/soviet/uk was 1/3 of USA'S.

was japan a superpower? with SUCH A POOR INDUSTRY BASE?


Before WW2 Japan had more aircraft carriers and submarines than China has today. Assuming that they were still not good enough - it goes to show what a medium industrial power can kick multiple great power asses and still survive as an industrial power after being nuked.

China has done nothing but build stuff - a lot of it copied and no public information on performance. Too much noise. Not enough substance. Name one conflict (other than terrorism with China make AK 47) where Chinese weapons have done well



by tieing its belt tightly and squeezing its small industrybase fully for decades,Japan indeed built a decent navy fleet that could match USA navy before WWII and had more Ac than china has today.

thus,Japanese thought that japan was in the same league of USA and had chance to defeat USA.

however, after the war broke out, Japan soon found that USA built more warships in 3 years than Japan could build in 30 years.

may some guys here not repeat the mistake of Japanese.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Atmavik » 23 Apr 2017 09:37

Liu wrote:
before WWii,

Japan industry base was only 1/10 of USA's.
german/soviet/uk was 1/3 of USA'S.

was japan a superpower? when its industry was even in the same league?


I am not sure about the numbers but during the WW 1 Japan allied with UK and US and was tasked to take over German ports(Tsingtao etc) and shipping in the east. The speed with which the Japanese accomplished this rang alarm bells with the Allies. Infact the US Thought the greatest risk to Guam would be from the Japanese. That was quite Prophetic.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 09:46

Liu wrote:
may some guys here not repeat the mistake of Japanese.

:rotfl:

Don't forget that the person who actually fought the Japanese was Chaing Kai Shek who received logistic support from the Americans by flying from India (Assam) to Kunming.

It is easy to sit and laugh after 75 years - but big words don't mean anything. For all the factories you are building in eastern China your logistics to the west is still poor. You have still not a built a railway through the mountains and have done very little in Tibet other than occupying the place, knocking down huts, grabbing agricultural land and building communes. If global warming occurs your existing railway will be kaput and even otherwise it is on marginal permafrost. Your roads to Tibet are beset by landslides. All that manufacturing is going to be useless if you can't get the stuff there.

You can still do a lot for development but all you want is to show off and say "We are greater than everyone".

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby tandav » 23 Apr 2017 10:03

Liu makes a point. However as the USA has learned Fighting an offensive battle is far more expensive than fighting a counter offensive battle and leads to defeat even when fighting un-industrialized nations like former Indian province of Gandhara. China definitely has pursued power single mindedly in the Champa sea and Tandavprast and built impressive war fighting capacity, but when war starts you will soon note that it is OPEX not CAPEX that carries the day. India easily can take the 5 weeks of pounding that you will no doubt throw at us initially but can you sustain a 100 or even a 1000 week war that will bleed your trade routes and energy supplies. India will not fight the offensive war that the CPC/PLA is preparing to fight by cranking out war accoutrements in bulk, but India is designed prolong the fight until your own war fighting machine strangles your nation, consumes Chinese children and converts large parts of your beautiful land and admirable people into an Industrial desert without a single shot fired by India. Time will tell when this reckless and frankly foolish quest for Superpower status leads to disaster, its only a matter of time before a highly divisive Trump like Chinese leader leads China.

There is a reason why the Mongols defeated China, Japanese defeated China. Each time India bailed you out by defeating your enemies in a counter offensive war and gave you your freedoms. When a Chinese Trumpesque warlord takes over there may be exodus from your nation but India as a civilization will once again rescue your people. In all these cases a disunited India defeated superpowers, today India is more united than ever and is looking to bring peace worldwide, hopefully you will acknowledge our many positive things that we have done for your nation and help promote friendship.

Interestingly shortly after WW2 India's industrial base was world's 4th largest in the world but the peace-niks that ran India did not capitalize on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 10:10

Atmavik wrote:
Liu wrote:
before WWii,

Japan industry base was only 1/10 of USA's.
german/soviet/uk was 1/3 of USA'S.

was japan a superpower? when its industry was even in the same league?


I am not sure about the numbers but during the WW 1 Japan allied with UK and US and was tasked to take over German ports(Tsingtao etc) and shipping in the east. The speed with which the Japanese accomplished this rang alarm bells with the Allies. Infact the US Thought the greatest risk to Guam would be from the Japanese. That was quite Prophetic.

as a latecomer,Japan was a tier3 industrized state as well as italy until WWII.

but the ones around japan were either weak pre~industrialized states like china or colonies like vietnam or india.

so, japan had some addtional edges as the sole industrialzed state in fareast.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Apr 2017 11:01

tandav wrote:Liu makes a point. However as the USA has learned Fighting an offensive battle is far more expensive than fighting a counter offensive battle and leads to defeat even when fighting un-industrialized nations like former Indian province of Gandhara. China definitely has pursued power single mindedly in the Champa sea and Tandavprast and built impressive war fighting capacity, but when war starts you will soon note that it is OPEX not CAPEX that carries the day. India easily can take the 5 weeks of pounding that you will no doubt throw at us initially but can you sustain a 100 or even a 1000 week war that will bleed your trade routes and energy supplies. India will not fight the offensive war that the CPC/PLA is preparing to fight by cranking out war accoutrements in bulk, but India is designed prolong the fight until your own war fighting machine strangles your nation, consumes Chinese children and converts large parts of your beautiful land and admirable people into an Industrial desert without a single shot fired by India. Time will tell when this reckless and frankly foolish quest for Superpower status leads to disaster, its only a matter of time before a highly divisive Trump like Chinese leader leads China.

There is a reason why the Mongols defeated China, Japanese defeated China. Each time India bailed you out by defeating your enemies in a counter offensive war and gave you your freedoms. When a Chinese Trumpesque warlord takes over there may be exodus from your nation but India as a civilization will once again rescue your people. In all these cases a disunited India defeated superpowers, today India is more united than ever and is looking to bring peace worldwide, hopefully you will acknowledge our many positive things that we have done for your nation and help promote friendship.

Interestingly shortly after WW2 India's industrial base was world's 4th largest in the world but the peace-niks that ran India did not capitalize on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II


I think we need to stop conjuring up warlike attributes to the chinis. They are preparing an "offensive war"??? A war fighting machine that consumes chinese children"??? You make the lizard sound like f.cking Sparta.

The truth is they are a supremely beta nation with a very poor military history and a history of weak-kneed pacifism. The reason why the mongols and japs conquered them? They sat like chickens behind their big wall until they were invaded. It is that simple.

This bullmanure that Liu is putting out about the China being equivalent to the US during WW2 with its manufacturing base. He neglected to add that unlike post Depression 1942 USA, the PRC is a nation of spoiled single children with parents who hadn't fought a war in 40 years. So not only is China historically passive and weak militarily, this current generation is supremely effeminate and weak in warmaking potential.

The US industrial base was used to destroy two very powerful military societies in Japan and Germany. The chini industrial base is used to changed the facts on the ground during by pumping the sea and air full of ships and aircraft to bully other weak military nations without actual shooting.

For us to elevate the chini ability and desire to fight to the level of dhoti shivering is, well, exactly that -- stupid shaking and wetting of lungi.

But as I said before, the real danger is that the chickenshit chini military doesn't fight. Extended peace helps China as it builds and builds. Unless someone kicks them in their beta arses, they really would win because the Champa Sea would so full of chini warships that it becomes the South China Sea by default.

Someone needs to take an offensive war to the lizard like the mongols and japanese and the manchu.

Liu
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 11:14

tandav wrote:Liu makes a point. However as the USA has learned Fighting an offensive battle is far more expensive than fighting a counter offensive battle and leads to defeat even when fighting un-industrialized nations like former Indian province of Gandhara. China definitely has pursued power single mindedly in the Champa sea and Tandavprast and built impressive war fighting capacity, but when war starts you will soon note that it is OPEX not CAPEX that carries the day. India easily can take the 5 weeks of pounding that you will no doubt throw at us initially but can you sustain a 100 or even a 1000 week war that will bleed your trade routes and energy supplies. India will not fight the offensive war that the CPC/PLA is preparing to fight by cranking out war accoutrements in bulk, but India is designed prolong the fight until your own war fighting machine strangles your nation, consumes Chinese children and converts large parts of your beautiful land and admirable people into an Industrial desert without a single shot fired by India. Time will tell when this reckless and frankly foolish quest for Superpower status leads to disaster, its only a matter of time before a highly divisive Trump like Chinese leader leads China.

There is a reason why the Mongols defeated China, Japanese defeated China. Each time India bailed you out by defeating your enemies in a counter offensive war and gave you your freedoms. When a Chinese Trumpesque warlord takes over there may be exodus from your nation but India as a civilization will once again rescue your people. In all these cases a disunited India defeated superpowers, today India is more united than ever and is looking to bring peace worldwide, hopefully you will acknowledge our many positive things that we have done for your nation and help promote friendship.

Interestingly shortly after WW2 India's industrial base was world's 4th largest in the world but the peace-niks that ran India did not capitalize on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_in_World_War_II


hordes like mongols is not worth discussion here,because
hordes era finished even before industry revolution.


british india could not produce tanks ,aircrafts and large warships and its industrybase was not 4th largest obviously.

During WWII, USA,Germany,soviet and UK were top4.

France,japan,italy and canada were the 5~8th.
india? maybe 9th?
during WWII, canada produced thousands of aircrafts/ships/tanks/autos and other weapons . its industrybase was obviously larger than anyone else except major powers(Usa,germany,soviets,uk,france,japan and italy)


In 1950s or so, USA had the largest industybase ,but its industry added value was by far larger than the closest runner~up Soviet (soviets industry added value was only 30% of USA'S)

in 1970s or so,soviets industry added value was about 70-80% of USA'S. either Usa's industrybase or soviets' was by far larger the 3rd largest one(japan).
thus,Usa and soviet were superpowers,while Japan/uk/france/german/china were not.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby tandav » 23 Apr 2017 13:02

Liu you are wrong and need to unlearn wrong history taught to you in China.

United Kingdom's Industrial and Military might mostly came from India in WW2. 6.8 million soldiers from Greater India fought and defeated the Axis powers Italy and Germany in Africa and Japanese in Asia, USA mopped up the defeated remains of the Japanese in the Pacific. While Mao was avoiding battle with Japanese and may be even actively collaborating with them to weaken the KMT and in the process sacrificed 20 million Chinese citizens to come to power. While Skulking around in the hills avoiding battle and inventing his Long March hagiography with barely 0.4 million troops. It was only after the Indian Army pulled Chinese chops out the fire by defeating the Japanese in the Burma theatre and resupplying Chiang Kai Shek in China that the Japanese were defeated.

History is witness that We saved China in WW2 and it would have been Indian Soldiers who would have marched into China mopping up the Japanese if USA had not dropped Nukes on Hiroshima Nagasaki to complete Japanese rout. We provided the 2nd largest standing army after USA's 16million soldiers and produced a very large amount (classified but perhaps greater than 50%) of the world's supply of Cordite/Smokeless deflagrant that powered all the guns and artillery in WW2.

For all intents and purposes the British Army was essentially the Indian Army. Britain and especially Churchill did not want Indian troops that defeated Germany to march into Europe and cause immense damage his White Supremacy image.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Second_World_War

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2017 14:03

both the Maoists and KMT were soundly defeated by the japani army and chased deep into the interior. it was only limitations of supply and vast depth of china that saved them and permitted them to skulk around until the japanese were defeated by others, then the civil war restarted again and kmt lost.

KMT was at the receiving end of the huge himalayan resupply effort from india which the americans put together.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hump

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Karthik S » 23 Apr 2017 14:09

tandav wrote:Liu you are wrong and need to unlearn wrong history taught to you in China.

United Kingdom's Industrial and Military might mostly came from India in WW2. 6.8 million soldiers from Greater India fought and defeated the Axis powers Italy and Germany in Africa and Japanese in Asia, USA mopped up the defeated remains of the Japanese in the Pacific. While Mao was avoiding battle with Japanese and may be even actively collaborating with them to weaken the KMT and in the process sacrificed 20 million Chinese citizens to come to power. While Skulking around in the hills avoiding battle and inventing his Long March hagiography with barely 0.4 million troops. It was only after the Indian Army pulled Chinese chops out the fire by defeating the Japanese in the Burma theatre and resupplying Chiang Kai Shek in China that the Japanese were defeated.

History is witness that We saved China in WW2 and it would have been Indian Soldiers who would have marched into China mopping up the Japanese if USA had not dropped Nukes on Hiroshima Nagasaki to complete Japanese rout. We provided the 2nd largest standing army after USA's 16million soldiers and produced a very large amount (classified but perhaps greater than 50%) of the world's supply of Cordite/Smokeless deflagrant that powered all the guns and artillery in WW2.

For all intents and purposes the British Army was essentially the Indian Army. Britain and especially Churchill did not want Indian troops that defeated Germany to march into Europe and cause immense damage his White Supremacy image.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Second_World_War


OT, but these britshits at the prospect of fighting against these very Indian soldiers declared India's independence after the naval mutiny.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2017 14:16

For a person who claims that China has a long history - Liu seems to concentrate on the Mao period alone and what came after that. This is exactly what the cultural revolution probably achieved. Wiped out memories of the past, installed BS and claims that commies are the best and that one need to protect and preserve the communist party like Islamists need to protect Allah. Both will collapse of the drones don;t protect them.

Even a couple of days ago Xi Jinping asked that the "party" should be protected and preserved

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 23 Apr 2017 14:23

And the funny part is the Commies who destroyed Chinese history during Cultural revolution, are the now claiming territories using the same Chinese history!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 23 Apr 2017 14:26

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

a vast and complex canvas, incl huge atrocities against civilians like hui muslims and nanking. reminds me of syria today but 1 million times larger.

this is worthy of a good read because our euro centric history tends to avoid any history of east asia barring a token mention of japan.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 14:53

tandav wrote:Liu you are wrong and need to unlearn wrong history taught to you in China.

United Kingdom's Industrial and Military might mostly came from India in WW2. 6.8 million soldiers from Greater India fought and defeated the Axis powers Italy and Germany in Africa and Japanese in Asia, USA mopped up the defeated remains of the Japanese in the Pacific. While Mao was avoiding battle with Japanese and may be even actively collaborating with them to weaken the KMT and in the process sacrificed 20 million Chinese citizens to come to power. While Skulking around in the hills avoiding battle and inventing his Long March hagiography with barely 0.4 million troops. It was only after the Indian Army pulled Chinese chops out the fire by defeating the Japanese in the Burma theatre and resupplying Chiang Kai Shek in China that the Japanese were defeated.

History is witness that We saved China in WW2 and it would have been Indian Soldiers who would have marched into China mopping up the Japanese if USA had not dropped Nukes on Hiroshima Nagasaki to complete Japanese rout. We provided the 2nd largest standing army after USA's 16million soldiers and produced a very large amount (classified but perhaps greater than 50%) of the world's supply of Cordite/Smokeless deflagrant that powered all the guns and artillery in WW2.

For all intents and purposes the British Army was essentially the Indian Army. Britain and especially Churchill did not want Indian troops that defeated Germany to march into Europe and cause immense damage his White Supremacy image.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_during_the_Second_World_War



well,
1.during WWII,british india could not produce heavy weapons(tanks,cannons,trucks,warships and aircrafts) to arm its troops.

from the begining,british india troops was one armed by UK,commanded by UK.

what India privided was soldiers.


2.chinese troops (both KMT and communsts) indeed performed not as shining as USA/soviet/Uk during WWII.
but such factors should be considered:
a. chinese troops were armed extremely poorly.
KMT could not produced heavy weapons and could not receive massive USA's military aid until burma was retoken and Burma~Yunan hiighroad was reopened in early 1945.
Commists troops were armed even more poorly and even had not enough bulliets and rifles.
b. even with such poor arms,chinese troops still held on against all imperial japanese army alone for 4 years(1937-1941).(I do believe chinese did job much better than britishmen and frenchmen during 1939-1941)
in 1941-1945, still millions of japanese armies were pulled by china.
c. WWII taught chinese a lesson with millons of chinese die/injured,that is,
no industrybase means no defence.
weak industrybase means weak defence.
we learn the lesson well by setting up global largest industrybase.

Liu
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 23 Apr 2017 15:23

Singha wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War

a vast and complex canvas, incl huge atrocities against civilians like hui muslims and nanking. reminds me of syria today but 1 million times larger.

this is worthy of a good read because our euro centric history tends to avoid any history of east asia barring a token mention of japan.


history books always reflects the reality.

the reality is that the world is still west~centered, whether by economu,military,science,technology or entertaiment.thus of course history books are euro centric.
after all, the succesor's experience is always more worth studying,isn't it?

if one day the reality were to be somalia~centered,history books would also somalia~centric.


of course,in forseeable future, history books might be twin(euro,sinic)~centric,because sinized civilization (with china/japan/korea /vietnam as the core) is to be one of the world twin~centers ,as well as west civilzation (with EU/ north america as the core )

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby tandav » 23 Apr 2017 15:35

Liu the greatest generals or machines do not win battles, soldiers do and these were volunteer soldiers and mostly lead by Indians themselves! Due to colonialism India was not allowed to produced its own weaponry. It was Indian weapons and technology that supplied most empires in its periphery from Gunpowder to Wootz steel. Please also remember that during Indian Independence movement UK was in talks to grant independence and allow India to provide its troops under its own flag as early as 1938 however this was not put in place due to the abrupt beginning of WW2. Performance of Indian soldiers was superior to CPC and KMT soldiers who preferred India and USA to do all of the hard work and take credit.It was the stupidity/naivete of non fighting leaders like Gandhi and Nehru of India that gifted away Indian military victories to others and turn Pacifist.

Even so then the fighting spirit of India shines through. Millions were also killed by Mao in cultural revolution, whats the difference between him and the Japanese. China was not alone in its fight against Japan and Indian Army saved China by defeating Japan in Burma. Chinese commanded by Chinese could not defeat Japan inside their own nation. Whereas Indian troops fought with whatever was available and defeated those nation with their vast Military Industrial complex like Japan and Germany and saved China. Its great that China is building good industry but she should be grateful for the freedoms that India gave her.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Liu » 24 Apr 2017 10:35

tandav wrote:Liu the greatest generals or machines do not win battles, soldiers do and these were volunteer soldiers and mostly lead by Indians themselves! Due to colonialism India was not allowed to produced its own weaponry. It was Indian weapons and technology that supplied most empires in its periphery from Gunpowder to Wootz steel. Please also remember that during Indian Independence movement UK was in talks to grant independence and allow India to provide its troops under its own flag as early as 1938 however this was not put in place due to the abrupt beginning of WW2. Performance of Indian soldiers was superior to CPC and KMT soldiers who preferred India and USA to do all of the hard work and take credit.It was the stupidity/naivete of non fighting leaders like Gandhi and Nehru of India that gifted away Indian military victories to others and turn Pacifist.

Even so then the fighting spirit of India shines through. Millions were also killed by Mao in cultural revolution, whats the difference between him and the Japanese. China was not alone in its fight against Japan and Indian Army saved China by defeating Japan in Burma. Chinese commanded by Chinese could not defeat Japan inside their own nation. Whereas Indian troops fought with whatever was available and defeated those nation with their vast Military Industrial complex like Japan and Germany and saved China. Its great that China is building good industry but she should be grateful for the freedoms that India gave her.

1. allies' help(including british india) is respected/appreciated by chinese now.

2. british india fought as a part of british empire.

3.during WWII,british india troops were armed much better than chinese troops,and its logistic were well maintained by british huge industry complexs.
during the whole WWII,chinese troops were short of rifles and bulliets,let alone trucks, cannon tank and aircrafts.


4.in Battle of Imphal 1944,british india defeated japanese.
before 1944, british india performed poorly in singapore,Malysia and burma.


5.chinese troops did not receive massive aid until burma~yunnan highroad was reopened in early 1945.
when KMT finished arming its troops with modern USA's weapons in spring of 1945, WWII almost ended.

thus,most amerian aided weapons were used by KMT for civil war(1946-1949),instead of WWII.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby tandav » 24 Apr 2017 15:43

Liu wrote:
tandav wrote:Liu the greatest generals or machines do not win battles, soldiers do and these were volunteer soldiers and mostly lead by Indians themselves! Due to colonialism India was not allowed to produced its own weaponry. It was Indian weapons and technology that supplied most empires in its periphery from Gunpowder to Wootz steel. Please also remember that during Indian Independence movement UK was in talks to grant independence and allow India to provide its troops under its own flag as early as 1938 however this was not put in place due to the abrupt beginning of WW2. Performance of Indian soldiers was superior to CPC and KMT soldiers who preferred India and USA to do all of the hard work and take credit.It was the stupidity/naivete of non fighting leaders like Gandhi and Nehru of India that gifted away Indian military victories to others and turn Pacifist.

Even so then the fighting spirit of India shines through. Millions were also killed by Mao in cultural revolution, whats the difference between him and the Japanese. China was not alone in its fight against Japan and Indian Army saved China by defeating Japan in Burma. Chinese commanded by Chinese could not defeat Japan inside their own nation. Whereas Indian troops fought with whatever was available and defeated those nation with their vast Military Industrial complex like Japan and Germany and saved China. Its great that China is building good industry but she should be grateful for the freedoms that India gave her.

1. allies' help(including british india) is respected/appreciated by chinese now.

2. british india fought as a part of british empire.

3.during WWII,british india troops were armed much better than chinese troops,and its logistic were well maintained by british huge industry complexs.
during the whole WWII,chinese troops were short of rifles and bulliets,let alone trucks, cannon tank and aircrafts.


4.in Battle of Imphal 1944,british india defeated japanese.
before 1944, british india performed poorly in singapore,Malysia and burma.


5.chinese troops did not receive massive aid until burma~yunnan highroad was reopened in early 1945.
when KMT finished arming its troops with modern USA's weapons in spring of 1945, WWII almost ended.

thus,most amerian aided weapons were used by KMT for civil war(1946-1949),instead of WWII.


Most Indians consider the Indian army in WW2 only nominally under British control. Just like the KMT the IA officer cadre was staffed by natives some higher level directions were from British generals, just like KMT took higher level directions from USA and Mao took directions from Russia.

British and Australian officers in Singapore ran away in cowardice and Singapore fell very fast when the Japanese attacked since they were basically enjoying the facilities of colonialism in posh places. After the IA colonial officers were replaced by native Indian officers the performance improved drastically. The entire industrial complex was within India itself and though it was not the highest grade it was enough to see off the Italians and Germans in Africa and Japanese in Burma. There was no huge industry in India since the British were sucking all resources from India just like in colonial China. Given that the British had no choice but to leave India after 1947 or else they would have been massacred in India by the same Indian army that gave them victory in WW2. They even stole most of the equipment like fighters and other aircraft that was paid for by India during war.

Basically the Russians, Indians and USA defeated Japan around China and gave you freedom.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Apr 2017 20:32

Tandav, after a point you will realize that you are trying to break a stonehead with your head only...


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