China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 06 Nov 2018 16:58

AGI wrote:It is indisputable that a liquid cooling system will always carry a higher maintenance cost and weight penalty than an air cooling system.



we cannot say this for sure, as there are no air cooled X band jet radar in service anywhere.

As i said, buying cost. Yes, air cooled would be cheaper.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Nov 2018 17:01

nam wrote:If they are using GaN, then may be, it might have reduced cooling needs. If that is the case, then it is a achievement to get a X band GaN, jet radar.

Regular AESA with air cooling method, is a downgraded AESA.


It depends upon performance requirements, and how exactly you define air-cooled. There are radars, like the F-16's APG-83, for example that primarily use air-cooling, have a local heat exchanger or other embedded cooling solution, but do not require any addition of liquid cooling plumbing on the aircraft. This was a design requirement, as the USAF did not want to go through the expensive modifications of introducing plumbing for liquid cooling and overhauling the F-16's unlike the UAE's blk'60 aircraft, where they had to basically create a bespoke system. Northrop and Lockheed have met all performance requirements with this approach but had to upgrade the radar to include the latest generation components to do so (it isn't a recycled AN/APG-80 from the UAE bid). I believe the APG-83's main rical from Raytheon (RACR) also is primarily air-cooled and does not require plumbing for liquid cooling to be provisioned. These sets were designed to be drop in replacements on the F-16 and F/A-18 aircraft.

nam wrote:For the same power rating , GaN are more power efficient ( reduced heating), hence will need lower cooling.

If for the same power rating, if GaN thermal properties are bad compared to GaAS, then no one will move towards GaN.


You switch to GaN in order to drive more power, get better performance (or overcome performance deficiency) and achieve performance not possible with GaAs devices. It is a major cost driver to do so both from industrial capability and capacity perspective and from a pure acquisition cost perspective so you do not make that decision lightly. While there are reliability advantages even without tapping into higher performance they do not really matter much when you are dealing with a 6-8,000 hr fighter. Case in point - ON the F-35, the radar aperture is sealed shut as the GaAs T/R modules have demonstrated reliability far exceeding the expected life of the aircraft.
Last edited by brar_w on 06 Nov 2018 17:10, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Nov 2018 17:07

AGI wrote:
Austin wrote:So far the best video showing J-10B TVC performed Cobra maneuver, J-turn, Falling leaf maneuver. Video by @ChinaAvReview

https://twitter.com/dafengcao/status/10 ... 1364423682


Chengdu Aerospace Corporation would have definately have had to improve the existing FCS on the J10C to integrate a TVC engine. Pics and video from the WS10 TVC display at the manufacturer's pavilion:

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Computer generated video of how the nozzle works and actual footage of the test rig:

https://twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/1059655590908170241

The J20 also demonstrating its no slouch. Many tight high G turns in this long display. Much less sedate than the 2016 demo:

https://mobile.twitter.com/OedoSoldier/status/1059645911377346560

Nice High res pics from that display:

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Maybe we'll get to see a demo from a TVC equipped J20 at Zhuhai 2020


They’ve turned the corner on the WS-10 and on engines. When you can put an experimental TVC nozzle on a single-engined aircraft in front of a crowd at an airshow then you are making a statement about its reliability.

The J-10 had a brutal history with FBW crashes too. So that side of things are fixed too to do this kind of extreme maneuvering.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 06 Nov 2018 17:11

brar_w wrote:
It depends upon performance requirements, and how exactly you define air-cooled.


I agree. There are various parameters.

However the basic argument that air cooled would be reliable (for similar performance parameters) than liquid cooled, hence cheaper to maintain is what I tend not to agree.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Nov 2018 17:15

An air cooled radar is a more affordable way to upgrade aircraft because you are not overhauling other systems on the aircraft when introducing a new radar. It wouldn't be any more or any less reliable than a liquid cooled radar if you are performing to a given specification for which it has been designed. Liquid cooling is generally introduced because a radar needs it to achieve its performance goals (both radar performance and reliability and longevity). On a small, low cost fighter that requires performance and reliability gains you can probably achieve that without requiring having to pump massive amounts of liquid cooling to the set. That is obviously not the case with larger radars or those aircraft that require higher performance and are willing to pay the cost that it entails.

That said, if you can meet performance specific goals without having to introduce a new liquid cooling system into to a legacy aircraft then you are avoiding adding hardware and plumbing for something that requires maintenance and upkeep so you aren't adding any more complexity to your system while at the same time also fielding a more reliable radar compared to a MSCAN or PESA that it is replacing.

Via Jane's IDR from a 2008 article :

While identifying many general attributes of the company-funded SABR, company officials were light on specifics at the Singapore Airshow 2008 in February, where the unit was launched.

It is an X-band radar and will cost "much less than existing AESA radars", according to Chris Sheppard, in charge of F-16 developments at Northrop Grumman.

He noted that it would be flexible to install, require no external aircraft modifications and use existing aircraft power. SABR's transmit/receive/processing unit incorporates integral cooling.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 06 Nov 2018 19:10

The LKF601E's specifications:

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Screen shots from LETRI's promotional video:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2018 21:51

Wuhai air show on.Check out the range of items that China has developed indigenously. Impressive.
We are way behind in several areas.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kartik » 07 Nov 2018 05:48

Possibly the JF-17 Block 3's AESA radar, which is in the works

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Nov 2018 09:36

Also for the JF-17 at Zhuhai: certainly a lot of options but how many do the PAF actually have or could fire now and not in later “blocks”?
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2018 10:38

anyone looking to buy the JF17 will be looking to save on munitions also. JSOW type weapons do not come cheap.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Nov 2018 15:04

I was just about to ask ... how many of these are certified to be fired off the JF-17.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 07 Nov 2018 15:15

There isn't a single public video of JF17 firing SD10. It isn't a capability known only to Pak & China and I would be happy to be wrong, but still there isn't one.

and note how the AESA poster quietly tells us that the existing radar on JF17 has only 80KM range.. :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2018 16:13

I see reports of China showing off prototype Quantum Radar. Real dhoti shiber moment for yindoos.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2018 16:19

The JF-17 from sources has a modest capability ,being built in quantity by Pak,but is also reportedly a danger to its pilots! There are some glitches apparently.What impresses one with the Chins is the variety of munitions and force multipliers apart from the number of indigenous fighters,helos and transports/special variants,that China has developed using a lot of purloined intel.Even possessing such intel requires actual reverse engineering and manufacturing the same to high quality stds.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Nov 2018 18:01

They have an industrial monster to create reality out of what their intelligent arms steal. Then they make variants by the hundreds.

The Zhuhai “air” show has a massive ground component too. There is so much stuff during the picture dumps that people don’t bother to identify them.

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They have a large training field for land vehicles at the air base:
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby venug » 07 Nov 2018 22:52

J-10B Confirms China’s Thrust Vectoring Capability
ZHUHAI, China—An AVIC-owned J-10B testbed demonstrated in a Nov. 6 flying display showed China’s new mastery of extreme aerial maneuverability aided by an experimental thrust vectoring control system.
Over a crowd of thousands attending Airshow China here, the J-10B’s axisymmetric vectoring engine nozzle enabled several aerial stunts associated with the most agile combat fighters.

Thrust vectoring allows a pilot to control an aircraft in an aerodynamic stall condition caused by a low speed and a high angle of attack. By using the vectoring nozzle to rotate the thrust produced by the engine, the pilot can perform tightly controlled maneuvers in a condition that would cause most aircraft to depart controlled flight.

In the most dramatic stunt, the J-10B’s pilot pulled the nose back almost 90 deg., then used thrust-vectoring control to rapidly reverse direction in a maneuver known as a “J-turn.”

The J-10B also performed a familiar air show stunt by Russian fighters. Pulling the nose back beyond 90 deg. at a very low speed, the thrust vectoring system kept the aircraft in firm control.

Such stunts, while popular at air shows, have limited value in modern combat against another fighter. Post-stall maneuvering, however, can help a fighter pilot in other ways, such as by avoiding detection by flying with a forward speed lower than the threshold velocity required for being spotted on an airborne early warning radar.

Thrust vectoring technology has been available to Russian and U.S. pilots since the 1990s, but has entered China’s aerial arsenal only recently. The delivery of the first batch of Sukhoi Su-35S fighters earlier this year introduced thrust vectoring control technology to the People’s Liberation Army’s Air Force fleet. Around the same time, pictures surfaced of AVIC’s J-10B testbed equipped with a thrust vectoring nozzle.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kartik » 07 Nov 2018 23:37

Just putting up brochures or a mockup at an airshow does not mean that the product is really ready to be brought to the market, nor does it mean that it has addressed all it's issues.

What is the LITRI air cooled AESA radar's weight?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2018 03:54

Radar weight seems to be 140kg

The APC is quite peculiar with such a small exit door.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Nov 2018 07:22

The saudi army has better gear in and around yemen :((

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 08 Nov 2018 08:06

Philip wrote:Wuhai air show on.Check out the range of items that China has developed indigenously. Impressive.
We are way behind in several areas.


True, our model makers are way behind theirs

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 09:58

^^^ :lol:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 09:59

China’s new J-20 stealth fighter engine a no-show at Zhuhai air show after it fails reliability tests
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/military ... i-air-show

- Country’s leading aviation expo was expected to be showcase for purpose-built WS-15 Emei but performance problems force rethink.
- PLA relies on Russia for engines for its most advanced stealth fighter.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 08 Nov 2018 10:27

hnair wrote:
Philip wrote:Wuhai air show on.Check out the range of items that China has developed indigenously. Impressive.
We are way behind in several areas.


True, our model makers are way behind theirs


No joke this.

The J-20 as a anime (or Japanamation) character. This thing was at the airshow according to a tweet from a Japani watcher.
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I’ve written before about the high volume and level of artistic items in the chini watch forums from both posters and firms. Easy to deride as “Photoshop” but for business types this artistic quality in an eco-system is one of the driving intangibles in Silicon Valley and also in Japan. Something that the financiers of Wall Street and Tokyo look for in funding with VC and angel funds.

The Japanese element is noticiable in Cheen. See anime character above.

They are exploring and testing. Imagining and competing. They are making their visions “happen.” It begins with a drawing. I’m afraid I’m seeing that kind of forward looking artistic vision in their endless drones and aircraft prototypes. We really are very far behind, I’m afraid.

The dearth of artwork in our own threads worries me a bit to be honest.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Nov 2018 10:48


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 08 Nov 2018 12:36

Their second carrier has returned from its third sea trial:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 08 Nov 2018 19:10

On the space side of things, manufacturers and the CNSA set up some interesting displays:

A life-size mock-up of the Tiangong 2 Space Lab:

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An actual extra-vehicular space suit in service with CNSA taikonauts:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 19:18

AGI wrote:Their second carrier has returned from its third sea trial

Please change your username to a more human sounding one. Thank You.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 08 Nov 2018 20:02

AGI wrote:
Rahul M wrote:Hi AGI, welcome to BRF.
please choose a human sounding username since your current one violates forum rules.


Thanks for the warm welcome mate. I'd be happy to comply if you'd send a PM explaining how to edit my user name...The only option I see on the edit account settings page is the password change option...


I'd be happy to sir. Kindly instruct me as to how that is done..? I can't find the option on the user control panel nor am I authorized to send private messages to inquire on it

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2018 20:19

What name do you want? Pick one and we will change it.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 08 Nov 2018 20:49

Rakesh wrote:What name do you want? Pick one and we will change it.

Thanks mate. "Kingsley". Feel free to add anything to it if just "Kingsley" is already taken...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2018 23:44

One thing about Chini weapon development is we cannot make out if some of these were developed for the sake of selling or there have been requirement from PLA/N/AF.

Some of these kit are fundamentally from eager companies wanting to get in to weapon sale or existing arms manufacturer extending their portfolio.

DRDO does weapon development, based on service requirement. However the drawback is the ecosystem is limited to what DRDO could get the funding for.

Chini development looks massive, however not sure many are getting in to operational use.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Nov 2018 00:15

Kengsley wrote:
Rakesh wrote:What name do you want? Pick one and we will change it.

Thanks mate. "Kingsley". Feel free to add anything to it if just "Kingsley" is already taken...

Saar, the forum software will not permit Kingsley, due to the term F***King, so it has been changed to Kengsley. Thanks.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2018 11:27

Explains China Rise in Economy since 80's till now , At one point we were ahead and till 2000 almost on par with them on PPP


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 09 Nov 2018 11:40

Austin wrote:Explains China Rise in Economy since 80's till now , At one point we were ahead and till 2000 almost on par with them on PPP



The first part came from FDI from Japan and the Asian Tigers while the second part beginning in 2001 coincided with their entry into WTO and the rise of their private sector.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 09 Nov 2018 12:02

nam wrote:One thing about Chini weapon development is we cannot make out if some of these were developed for the sake of selling or there have been requirement from PLA/N/AF.

Some of these kit are fundamentally from eager companies wanting to get in to weapon sale or existing arms manufacturer extending their portfolio.

DRDO does weapon development, based on service requirement. However the drawback is the ecosystem is limited to what DRDO could get the funding for.

Chini development looks massive, however not sure many are getting in to operational use.


Few get into operational use, even the PLA can’t afford and use the vast majority of that chit. So they hawk to an international audience for exports.

Cheen’s MIC has both Russian (and Indian) style PSUs and a private sector like Amreeka. The PSUs get some sanctioned projects but even those are often set up for competition between SOE’s — for example the current naval fighter competition (FC-31 from SAC vs a J-20 derivative from CAC.) The giant sea plane on the other hand went to CAIGA without competition.

The endless drone prototypes seem to come from state and private companies with no central funding. From what I read, the PLAAF only buys Wing Loongs while the CH series being sold to Saudi Arabia, Iraq and other muzzies are privately funded and marketed.

When a private blasting company makes a Brahmos equivalent and SAC funds a stealth fighter on its own to hawk to the state then this is close to a competitive freemarket system like the US. That market would be far more productive than a bunch of PSUs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Neshant » 09 Nov 2018 12:56

China's First Drone Missile Boat On Display At Airshow China

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In particular, what caught our attention on Thursday morning, is that China has developed an autonomous boat that can conduct reconnaissance missions and fire up to four image-guided missiles, said China Daily.


https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11- ... show-china

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 13:26

they are not really thinking the use cases through, just using funds and ideas to come up with cool looking POCs like a ebullient startup scene.
apart from being fairly useless in the open sea what exactly is this supposed to do ? harass a giant DDG51 or Atago ship by using swarm tactics? a single ESSM round cued by radar will rip this thing apart. carrier killa ? :twisted: a carrier would swamp this in its wake :D like a sedate hathi pissing on a defiant jackal.

export markets? why would a nigerian , laotian or pakistani warlord need this?

no doubt it carries all the current buzzwords like ML, AI, autonomous, deep learning and has hadoop FS and kubernetes on board for rapid swing role plays using containers and docker :rotfl:

this is the MKI version of the iranian gunboats showing defiance at passing murican heavies in the straits of hormuz.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 09 Nov 2018 13:35

More than anyone else, it would the Russian who would be quite nervous at these "startups". They are eating in to Russian sales. And given the size of their economy, they cannot pour in resources.

India is probably their true large market, in a way funder of their MIC. We need to squeeze out tech from Russian to the max.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Nov 2018 13:52

russia has a counterplay via their help on our strategic black projects. plus our own diffidence to rock the boat and dare others to respond in the way cheen does.

so thats why they can keep selling some stuff we can and should make ourselves like ak47...cheen has cloned the ak47 decades ago and sold that worldwide to various militias and tyrants.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2018 14:04

nam wrote:More than anyone else, it would the Russian who would be quite nervous at these "startups". They are eating in to Russian sales. And given the size of their economy, they cannot pour in resources.

India is probably their true large market, in a way funder of their MIC. We need to squeeze out tech from Russian to the max.


Russian miilitary exports does not make up more than 3 % of their total exports earning , so its minuscile and Indians dont make for more than 20 % of that MIC export on average

Chinese dont have a battle proven system , Russian are moon miles ahead there infact there is nothing in Chini system that battle proven except for armed UAV used by Iraq army .....so its apples and oranges comparision .......Customers know this fact and even proven system like J-10 has no buyers not even PAF. Reason why Japan cannot sell much in export market

But having said that these new system should help the Chinese army and their MIC to build an indiginous modern MIC ....they dont really need to export too as Chinese have other things to export in commercial world


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