China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jan 2019 15:42

^^^ Presence in numbers will erode your jurisdiction while establishing theirs. A hundred years ago, a better equipped and trained Japanese navy would start sinking chini ships to deter a larger less advanced force.

But today with nukes, great powers will never come to real blows. So the contest will be that of industrial production to put machines into places that can’t be demarcated permanently by human settlement. A poorly made, poorly-trained 1500-ton corvette can exert presence and jurisdiction no less than an Aegis destroyer in peace time.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 06 Jan 2019 15:54

They are beginning to flood space too. With not only their PSUs but their private sector too.

Flooding sea, air and space with “just good enough” machines.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612595/china-launched-more-rockets-into-orbit-in-2018-than-any-other-country/


China launched more rockets into orbit in 2018 than any other country

And in the next few years it plans to launch the world’s biggest space telescope, the world’s heaviest rocket, and a space station to rival the ISS.

By Joan Johnson-Freese December 19, 2018


Late one afternoon last October, from a remote and desolate launchpad in the Gobi desert, the Future soared into space.

The Future, a small satellite built for a China Central Television science show, was scarcely more capable than the very first Chinese satellite, launched from the same spot, the Jiuquan launch center, in 1970. And yet October’s launch was historic: it was to be the first privately developed Chinese rocket to reach orbit.

Zhuque-1, the rocket carrying the Future to orbit, has three stages. The first stage fired smoothly. So did its second. A few minutes later, the third stage malfunctioned. The Future was lost.
...
Landspace, the firm that built the Zhuque-1, is not the only firm trying. At the time of this writing, in December 2018, another company, OneSpace, was also planning an orbital launch for later in the year while a third, iSpace, has ambitions for 2019.

Regardless of which company wins the race, two things are clear. Privately funded space startups are changing China’s space industry. And even without their help, China is poised to become a space power on par with the United States.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Jan 2019 17:55

^^is their private really private?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 17:57

Swarming is best illustrated in the bangladeshi takeover of some tracts in riverine axom and west bengal
No go zones for govt law comes soon after along with sharia and peace 100%
The hapless locals are coerced and pressured to concede and leave their ancient homelands

Their funding is via cash rich alibaba weibo tencent etc whoch like murican titans are investing in futuristic fields every area known to man to capture tech high grounds and close gaps
Think what alphabet or amzn is doing

Cheen is doing what was done in jk to pandits

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 06 Jan 2019 18:02

The 308th independent artillery brigade has officially introduced the SH15 155mm self propelled gun from NORINCO into service. Joining the unit's existing inventory of PHL03 300mm long range MRLs and PLZ05 155mm tracked SP howitzers.

Image

Image from October 2018 detailing shipments of the gun systems to Tibet via rail.

Image

Summary from NORINCO's display at Airshow China:

Image

This gun system is based on the AH-2 155 mm/L52 howitzer and is an improvement of the SH1 truck mounted howitzer exported to Pakistan and Myanmar and also in service with the PLA's 72nd Artillery Brigade, 72nd Group Army, of the Eastern Theater Command.

Improvements over the SH1 include a semi automatic loading system, lightly armored cabin to protect against small arms fire and shrapnel, a modular C42I suite and an adjustable hydraulic suspension.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 06 Jan 2019 18:42

It is a very interesting contrast between our choice of SP artillery versus Chinis. They go for tracked , wheeled and truck mounted artillery. They do have towed, but old school with no autoloader, nor SP.

This kind of setup does not add to the view of a "invasion" force. The SPs cannot easily deploy through the passes or mountains. They are fine in Tibet plateau, where there is large room for moving around.

On the order hand, we have gone for towed with SP capability and TFTA European style auto loader. Dhanush & ATAGS. Good for deployment in mountains. Looks like we don't have plans for deep invasion in to Tibet, although truck MGS is in the pipeline. May be K9 numbers will increase, however no such plans have been announced.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 19:16

Getting into tibet is just step1

How do you provide each mech division that has broken out into open terrain with upto 500 tons of supplies per day ?

The kind of artillery parks they hsd setup north of doklam per goog earth and raj47 snippets i think they will be crushed by our mlrs and artillery firing from deep cover in the mountain folds

The chumbi valley is a death trap for the pla and their wing loongs droning about cannot change the terrain just broadcat the destruction of pla units in 4k hd live to peking via ku band antenna

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 20:59

Singha wrote:Swarming is best illustrated in the bangladeshi takeover of some tracts in riverine axom and west bengal
No go zones for govt law comes soon after along with sharia and peace 100%
The hapless locals are coerced and pressured to concede and leave their ancient homelands

Their funding is via cash rich alibaba weibo tencent etc whoch like murican titans are investing in futuristic fields every area known to man to capture tech high grounds and close gaps
Think what alphabet or amzn is doing

Cheen is doing what was done in jk to pandits


to illustrate my point, here is a election convoy in assam probably of NDA doing FONOPS peacefully in a unofficial "no go" 9-dash/ADIZ area and look at the reaction. nobody died, nobody got injured also maybe but the sheer fire and fury of the "rage" ensures that only those with a stiff spine and strong police detail will come for the next FONOPS . many will not come. this is what china is relying on - harass and intimidate the other ASEAN states so that US is isolated and looks like a interloper in a local dispute.

and the fat pandu can only raise his folded hands for the rageboys to calm down.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ParGha » 06 Jan 2019 21:01

Singha, I stand corrected wrt ATGMS: Per rohitvats's excellent study on ATGMs in IA, even infantry battalions in mountain divisions are now reportedly authorized 2x Long Range ATGMs and 2x Short Range ATGM launchers with a normal complement of 8x missiles.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 21:03

I think we have a vast inventory of milan2T which is man portable. and plenty of kornets(3000 was delivered by 2006) as well which can cleave through the armour of even heavy MBTs as seen in yemen and syria. its a heavy ATGM but low to the ground and man portable.

we have around 25000 konkurs-M missiles

if and when Nag production is ramped up or enough LCH/WSI with helina is available that will double the strike range.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Jan 2019 21:30

chola wrote:
But today with nukes, great powers will never come to real blows. So the contest will be that of industrial production to put machines into places that can’t be demarcated permanently by human settlement. A poorly made, poorly-trained 1500-ton corvette can exert presence and jurisdiction no less than an Aegis destroyer in peace time.


But it can't get you anything else during actual conflict or even provide an effective presence when confronted by a opposite force (during peacetime) that has more capability. Things can escalate quickly and you better have enough capability to prevent that. Folks who have to make decisions to provide national security such actually have to ensure that what you buy gets you what you desire in terms of value add to your national defense and security.

Nations all around the world buy warships that can deter or defeat whatever threat they are facing hence India, Japan, China and US etc buy destroyers, attack submarines, anti-submarine aircraft etc in addition to smaller combatants. If they all went by your logic all the navies of the world would just be equipped with vessels that can do the presence and nothing else of much significance (in the eyes of your well armed adversary). Your ability to go show off on a presence mission means very little to your adversaries if it cannot be backed by some real teeth if called upon.The US Navy can afford to field 30 corvettes because it will have 90+ large surface combatants and 20+ multi mission frigates along with 11-12 CVN's and a large attack submarine force. Without all of the firepower those corvettes would not be taken very seriously whenever they sail far from home.

Same for Japan, now that they have the fighting force that is sufficiently built up to provide for their security, they can now afford to spend the next decade or more on building a more capable small surface combatant force for the less taxing (on size and cost) wartime missions (Submarine warfare, mine hunting, etc etc) and for low intensity presence. It is the large surface combatant and attack submarine force that ensures A) the survival of the small surface combatant force, and B ) the presence missions actually has enough substance to it to be taken seriously. This is a smart approach and will result in an much more effective overall fleet architecture than if they had spent most of their funds on preparing for presence and have nothing to deter an actual conflict. That would just lower the threshold of conflict and encourage China to push through on its expansion more aggressively.

Japan is doing exactly this -

Jane's Navy International wrote:- Over the coming decade the MoD also plans to build 22 ships of a new class of multirole frigate for the JMSDF. In its budget for FY 2018 the MoD earmarked JPY92.2 billion for the construction of the first two frigates, which are expected to be handed over to the JMSDF in March 2022.

- Within the next decade, the JMSDF also plans to introduce 12 1,000-tonne patrol vessels, each of which can accommodate a crew of 30. Officials told Jane’s that the craft could also be referred to as “guided-missile patrol boats”.


Even the Chinese realize this, hence they are pushing out both small and large surface combatants.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Jan 2019 22:41

Their 3rd gen aegis ships Maya class has moved to codag power for reduced opex vs the usual cogag of atago and kongo class

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 00:28

^^ With these two ships they'll have a total of 8 BMD capable AEGIS vessels and they already have a roadmap to take their Aegis baseline J7 up to an equivalent of US baseline 9.0 which means that they can concurrently perform both the BMD and Air defense mission. This is some pretty good capacity in the region because they can all link up with the US and other AEGIS ships. For comparison, only 17 of the 50 AEGIS or non AEGIS Destroyers and Cruisers assigned to the US Pacific fleet are BMD ships so Japan brings >50% boost to the overall ships in the region that can meet and provide extended area AAW and BMD coverage. This also opens up the door for them to begin acquiring the SM-6 which has over the horizon capability which is important when you are defending smaller ships or providing air cover to ground troops. 8 ships translates to roughly 2 ships alloted to each of their 4 escort flotillas so their is redundancy built in when it comes to upper tier ballistic missile defense.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Jan 2019 12:27

Cheen’s GPS now has more satellites than the American original.

It is a commercial as well as strategic gambit.

http://www.atimes.com/us-china-in-space-race-for-satnav-supremacy/

US, China in ‘space race’ for satnav supremacy


By SABENA SIDDIQUI
JANUARY 7, 2019 8:06 AM (UTC+8)


...
in the last couple of years, China’s Beidou network has been making rapid progress and is now on its way to becoming the largest satellite network. Having launched more than 40 satellites into space, China has now outstripped GPS, which runs on 31 satellites, while Russia’s GLONASS operates 24. China has its sights set on “serving the entire globe by the year 2020” with “100 times more accuracy.”
...

With more than 80% of it now complete, Beidou has progressed rapidly as 18 satellites were sent into space from the Xichang Satellite Launch Center in southwest China’s Sichuan Province in 2018. Such an intensive launch program was possible because the BDS-3 satellite team fine-tuned the process. Costing about $12 billion, the Beidou network can bring in a lot of revenue if it proves to be more accurate than GPS, and most smartphones now support both GPS and Beidou.

Meanwhile, China’s NavInfo is supplying Tesla and BMW with navigation tech and expects to sell 15 million Beidou-linked chips by 2020, and China’s satellite navigation business may exceed $57 billion by that time, according to the Chinese news service Xinhua. As per a report by Grand View Research, Inc, global positioning systems will be worth US $146.4 billion by 2025 as the demand for location-based services is constantly on the rise, ranging from map locations and food deliveries to the navigation of military aircraft and naval ships.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 12:52

In the past they have said anywhere from twice as accurate to 8 and even 10 times as accurate. Now they say 100 times more accurate than the legacy GPS. Meanwhile the anticipated performance claims of GPS III are more modest in comparison (just a mere 3 times more accurate) :wink:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1040#p2312721

Also if you read the article linked above, it highlights the common commercial signal that the GPS III, Japanese efforts in this field and GLONAAS seem to support so in sum of space assets is being supported by the most number of nations and satellites. Such convergence is logical and probably what will end up happening over time on the civil side.

News of another FON patrol within 12 miles of the Paracel Islands

The USS McCampbell carried out a “freedom of navigation” operation, sailing within 12 nautical miles of the Paracel Island chain, “to challenge excessive maritime claims”, Pacific Fleet spokeswoman Rachel McMarr said in an emailed statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... ce=Twitter
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Jan 2019 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 07 Jan 2019 13:43

brar_w wrote:https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1040#p2312721

News of another FON patrol within 12 miles of the Paracel Islands

The USS McCampbell carried out a “freedom of navigation” operation, sailing within 12 nautical miles of the Paracel Island chain, “to challenge excessive maritime claims”, Pacific Fleet spokeswoman Rachel McMarr said in an emailed statement.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... ce=Twitter


Explain something for me if you can. .. The USN started performing FONOPs within 12 nm of China's man made islands in the Spratly chain to demonstrate that the US still considered them reefs and not actual islands with a 12nm territorial water claim around them. Understandable and legal under UNCLOS.

However, the Paracel island chain is comprised of actual Islands that actually do generate a 12nm territorial water buffer and possibly even legally entitled to a 200km EEZ around them.

What "freedom of navigation" is the USN demonstrating here? What excessive maritime claims are being challenged?
Last edited by Kengsley on 07 Jan 2019 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 13:45

Kengsley wrote:
brar_w wrote:https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&start=1040#p2312721

News of another FON patrol within 12 miles of the Paracel Islands




However, the Paracel island chain is comprised of actual Islands that actually do generate a 12nm territorial water buffer and possibly even a 200km EEZ around them. What "freedom of navigation" is the USN demonstrating here? What excessive maritime claims are being challenged?


I don't know the exact answer to these questions and I didn't write this article. Perhaps it could be that the sovereignty of the islands is in dispute? How about you address these questions to either the author of the article or the US government? I understand there is an embassy in Gaborone.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 07 Jan 2019 13:50

brar_w wrote:
Kengsley wrote:

However, the Paracel island chain is comprised of actual Islands that actually do generate a 12nm territorial water buffer and possibly even a 200km EEZ around them. What "freedom of navigation" is the USN demonstrating here? What excessive maritime claims are being challenged?


I don't know the answer to these questions and I didn't write this article. How about you address these questions to either the author of the article or the US? I understand there is an embassy in Gaborone.


I didn't suggest that you wrote the article or that you are a US gov official. I did say "explain if you can". If you can't then it's cool.

If I went to the US embassy every time I didn't understand a particular US gov policy, i suspect I'd be banned from the premises by now.

I doubt it has to do with the fact that Vietnam also claims ownership of the islands. If the USN conducted FON operations around disputed Isla ds then surely they'd have done a few around the Senkakus or the Kuril Islands or e en around the Falklands once or twice before.
Last edited by Kengsley on 07 Jan 2019 13:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 13:56

I am pretty sure you are aware of the justification offered for the FON ops around Paracel and Spratly islands and if not you are capable of finding out since this is not the first time the US Navy has sailed a destroyer through that area.
Last edited by brar_w on 07 Jan 2019 14:08, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 07 Jan 2019 14:06

brar_w wrote:I am pretty sure you are aware of the justification offered for the FON ops around Paracel and Spratly islands and if not you are capable of finding out since this is not the first time the US Navy has sailed a destroyer through that area.


I am aware of the justification offered WRT USN FONOPs in the Spratlys.

I am not aware of the justification of USN FONOPs around the Paracel Islands. If I were I wouldn't have asked. If you don't know and can't find out then how am I supposed to?

As I said., if you can't explain, then no harm done, unless you've taken offense to my question for some reason?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 14:09

Kengsley wrote:
I am not aware of the justification of USN FONOPs around the Paracel Islands. If I were I wouldn't have asked. If you don't know and can't find out then how am I supposed to?


The US position when it comes FON operations around the Paracel islands has been articulated in the past and discussed in the maritime and geopolitical sphere since this is not the first time they have sent a naval vessel into those waters.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/latest-us-f ... ges-chinas

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 07 Jan 2019 14:38

brar_w wrote:
Kengsley wrote:
I am not aware of the justification of USN FONOPs around the Paracel Islands. If I were I wouldn't have asked. If you don't know and can't find out then how am I supposed to?


The US position when it comes FON operations around the Paracel islands has been articulated in the past and discussed in the maritime and geopolitical sphere since this is not the first time they have sent a naval vessel into those waters.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/latest-us-f ... ges-chinas


No, this is not the first time they have sailed a warship near the Paracels.

Reports further confirm that the Decatur did not come within 12 nautical miles of any of the China-occupied islands, and the use of the term “routine” suggests the Decatur did not sail under the rules of “innocent passage.”

I thought the article you posted earlier detailed a FONOP by USS McCampbell within 12nm of individual islands in the Paracel chain; thus my question...

USN FONOPs in the Paracels are a challenge to use of straight baselines around the entire archipelago, not 12nm territorial water claims around individual islands. I genuinely didn't know that.

Thank you kindly for the link good sir...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 14:50

Kengsley wrote:No, this is not the first time they have sailed a warship near the Paracels.

When USS Decatur conducted its FONOP in 2016 as detailed in that lawfareblog article, it did not sail within 12nm of any individual island, but sailed within the straight baseline drawn around the archipelago by the PRC in 1996.


This is not the first US FONOP around these islands where they have sailed within 12 nautical miles. You can do your research around those to see what the claims and counter claims were at the time.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 15:44

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2019 17:04

:rotfl: is this planned on the long march from tawang to guwahati ? a quick turn around on cramped mountain roads once they see swarms of IA units on the horizon.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 07 Jan 2019 17:06

:rotfl: Why cant they have driving schools instead?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kvraghav » 07 Jan 2019 17:23

Seriously though wont the center of gravity change on uneven surfaces? How can they rotate on a single pivot point with off center of gravity?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2019 17:30

perhaps the show was rigged by placing ballast weights in the back. even the jacks seem to have a hydraulic pipe connection to something inside the truck itself....else truckers use a long lever to turn that screw manually.

so its a self deploying, web scale, containerized 'cloud native' solution to run away, tails tucked between their legs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Jan 2019 18:14

brar_w wrote:Image


The video is doing quite the rounds on twitter_verse.
This has been thought and done before especially in terms of rail carriages.
Find the right centre of gravity , insert a frame and do a turn around as required.

Its a peace time activity for turning around trucks and under maintenance rail carriages.
Yes its pretty cool but to do it with a loaded truck with no way to calculate the new right Centre of gravity and on a road that is not that well paved under fire would be another thing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Jan 2019 18:17

railway engines have proper turning tables for decades now...from era of steam engines.
these days the trainsets with driver cabs at both ends do not need.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Manish_P » 07 Jan 2019 19:50

You have done it now, Singha sir. Given the chinese ideas. Soon they will launch trucks with detachable cabs at both ends.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Jan 2019 20:51

This looks real good on youtube, but wonder its utility (apart from propaganda to aam chinese of course).

I have learnt from hollywood movies that convoys are attacked by the following
1. IED (Ironman 1)
2. Terrorists hiding behind stones(Ironman 1)
3. snipers (Shooter)
4. Apache helicopters (History, NatGeo for EyeRaq War)
5. RPGs (Probably American Sniper)
6. Artillery (Kargil, remember the movement by candles)

Quite often with most all of the above

Assuming
1. it works (please dont ban me for this, I am actually serious), Just wondering in which case one does it help?
2. it needs to be done for unprotected convoys

Will they turn their convoy in enemy fire or one truck will continue to face fire and rest will return.
I have heard that Generally kashmiri terrorists and talibanies start by taking the one in the middle to sow confusion then attack from both sides. How will the remaining half escape, taking cover of other half. Leave no one behind?
What happened to the mighty MIC that was rolling out WS10 like sausages/pancakes or in their case dimsums.
Perhaps, they are not expecting to fight anywhere else apart from the nicely built chinese highways

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 21:44

Arjun bhai you dont know?
I am surprised.
I wont call it dimsum army as I like dimsums.
The chicken Feet Army has magic lantern that makes all roads smooth as a baby's bottom.
Finding CoG and turning truck around is a cinch.
The lantern can also turn enemy fire into a Yindoo shower of flower petals.
Also the front of convoy is and jacking and turning duties go to expendables - uighurs, tibeteans etc...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 21:46

Their biggest and most closely guarded secret is the magic lantern and flying carpet.
Hollywood is way behind the PLA or the CFA.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 21:48

Its nice to be racist at times. Its human nature yes?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2019 21:52

Singha wrote:railway engines have proper turning tables for decades now...from era of steam engines.
these days the trainsets with driver cabs at both ends do not need.

I once saw a engine turn around at Dharwad station. A highlight of my childhood.

Ok.ok. I know I did not get around too much...

But simple pleasures...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Jan 2019 22:15

ks_sachin wrote:Their biggest and most closely guarded secret is the magic lantern and flying carpet.
Hollywood is way behind the PLA or the CFA.

CFA? from where did the racist part come sir? You may not believe it, but in this case I was serious
ks_sachin wrote:Also the front of convoy is and jacking and turning duties go to expendables - uighurs, tibeteans etc...

missed this part completely. My bad

Singha
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2019 07:57


chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 08 Jan 2019 09:41

ks_sachin wrote:Their biggest and most closely guarded secret is the magic lantern and flying carpet.
Hollywood is way behind the PLA or the CFA.


Aladdin was actually chini according to original Arabian Nights.

Image

So their magic lantern and flying carpet programs go back centuries!

Khalsa
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 08 Jan 2019 09:42

Manish_P wrote:You have done it now, Singha sir. Given the chinese ideas. Soon they will launch trucks with detachable cabs at both ends.


Shiver Me Timbers Lad !!


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