China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 498
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby SNaik » 06 Feb 2019 14:40

China plans to sell Pak an aircraft carrier and integrate it militarily
https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news ... militarily

An official media report separately disclosed that China has planned to carry out a “large-scale upgrade” of China’s first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, and “sell it to Pakistan to compete with India”! It described Pakistan “as the best destination for it” and said that by then the Liaoning, which was commissioned into the PLAN in September 2012, will have served the Chinese Navy for about 18 years. Gwadar and Karachi are already described by Chinese Navy strategists as a “logistics base” and “PLA Navy (PLAN) base” respectively.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2019 15:56

if they are really ready to dispose the Liaoning, means the whole ship is a dud - not surprising given the precarious track record of the kuznetsov.
even the HMS Hermes and Vikrant had 50 year hull lives. as does every american carrier.

calls into question the efficacy of their 001 and 002 which were supposed to thrash the nimitz class in open ocean.

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3588
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 06 Feb 2019 16:14

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Pakis are not going to touch it with a barge pole, because they have tasted quality maal of khan (albeit as dole). Pakis know this will drain their meager alms bowl and yet provide zero usable capability against India. They hardly touched J10 other than platitudes and is still angling around for spare Solah.

One has to thank ACM Dhanoa-sir in force-feeding the world with the red pill about Cheen’s glossy PR, when he called out the J20 as a TunTun that can’t be missed even in a dark room.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2740
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 06 Feb 2019 16:15

I suppose the Chinese would kindly "let" the pakis pay for the carrier being stationed in gwadar most probably maintained by Chinese :mrgreen: ..eat the cake and having it too !

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 06 Feb 2019 17:19

Maybe it will function as a moored hotel ship and honky tonk cathouse for 1000s of sinic workers sent to construct the new gwader . High consuls would live onboard while worker bees in rows of converted tin containers

A kind of subic bay or saigon but sinic version where the boys can relax and soak up the ample sun

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1410
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Feb 2019 00:34

hnair wrote:One has to thank ACM Dhanoa-sir in force-feeding the world with the red pill about Cheen’s glossy PR, when he called out the J20 as a TunTun that can’t be missed even in a dark room.


I missed that, Did he call out the stealth capabilities of the a/c ?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6658
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:15

Khalsa wrote:
hnair wrote:One has to thank ACM Dhanoa-sir in force-feeding the world with the red pill about Cheen’s glossy PR, when he called out the J20 as a TunTun that can’t be missed even in a dark room.

I missed that, Did he call out the stealth capabilities of the a/c ?

Dhanoa Sir shamed the J-20 quite badly. Do not tell the American apologists on BRF about it though ;) It is all about the Chinese invasion!

IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs can detect and track Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iafs-su ... 10095.html

According to the Indian Defence Research Wing, the IAF Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said the "Su-30 radar is good enough and can pick it (J-20) up from many kilometers away". He made the comment a couple of months back when asked if the J-20 which was "invisible to the radar" could be a threat.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6658
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2019 04:19

Singha wrote:Maybe it will function as a moored hotel ship and honky tonk cathouse for 1000s of sinic workers sent to construct the new gwader . High consuls would live onboard while worker bees in rows of converted tin containers

A kind of subic bay or saigon but sinic version where the boys can relax and soak up the ample sun

Station a carrier or two at Gwadar naval base along with a surface and sub-surface battle group. They are churning both platform out like pancakes. Their only naval fighter - the J-15 - is in the doldrums. But they will eventually get it right. Might take a decade for that happen, if not sooner. Operating out of Gwadar will negate the disadvantage of the Malacca Strait choke hold that an Indian sub (INS Chakra) can put on a PLAN battle group. Tracking a carrier in the vast Arabian Sea - as you already know - is a lot harder than in the narrow Malacca Straits.

Next you will see PLAAF fighters operating from Pakistani air space from various air bases. That will negate the disadvantage their fighters currently have operating from Tibet. A couple of infantry, armoured and artillery divisions will nicely round up the Chinese military presence in Pakistan. All in the name of protecting Chinese investment in Pakistan i.e. CPEC.

Who is going to stop the Chinese from doing so? Pakistan lost all self respect, when they handed over their sovereignty to the Chinese.

CPEC is purely a military move on the part of China. But I still will not dhoti shiver :)

Two front war, but it will be the same enemy onlee - the Chinese. Pakistan will act as observer and will be allowed to take credit for a few battles. But all decisions will be taken by the Chinese. They have got Pakistan's balls in a vice and they will squeeze it when required. Pakistan's kameez goes up and down, as per orders sent by the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2740
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 07 Feb 2019 04:59

Rakesh wrote:
Khalsa wrote:I missed that, Did he call out the stealth capabilities of the a/c ?

Dhanoa Sir shamed the J-20 quite badly. Do not tell the American apologists on BRF about it though ;) It is all about the Chinese invasion!

IAF's Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs can detect and track Chinese Chengdu J-20 stealth fighters
https://zeenews.india.com/india/iafs-su ... 10095.html

According to the Indian Defence Research Wing, the IAF Su-30MKIs on a sortie in the Northeast managed to track Chengdu J-20 fighters being operated by the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) over Tibet. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa said the "Su-30 radar is good enough and can pick it (J-20) up from many kilometers away". He made the comment a couple of months back when asked if the J-20 which was "invisible to the radar" could be a threat.


What if the J20 s were meant to be "seen" ? as in they were using a kind of Luneberg lens ?

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2019 05:00

Singha wrote:Maybe it will function as a moored hotel ship and honky tonk cathouse for 1000s of sinic workers sent to construct the new gwader . High consuls would live onboard while worker bees in rows of converted tin containers

A kind of subic bay or saigon but sinic version where the boys can relax and soak up the ample sun


LoL. Chinis have much experience turning carriers into party boats.


Published on Jun 6, 2010
Huge aircraft party with a log of DJs and good music just outside Beijing in Tianjin!

By far the best party in my life!


Can the Varyag even make it to Gwadar?

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3588
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 07 Feb 2019 07:10

kit wrote:What if the J20 s were meant to be "seen" ? as in they were using a kind of Luneberg lens ?


Nice. We need to dig deep and research out more dhoti-n-shiver topics in a Cheeni-BENISmode :lol:

Eg: it is not that Laoning does not lack an operational airwing, they just doesn’t want to be seen above deck

Truth must be that IAF found out that those Made-in-china luneberg lens returns less radar than Made-in-China stealth fighter. A sixth gem solution would be to add more lunebergs, with pilots wearing a luneberg amulet around the neck

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3588
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 07 Feb 2019 07:18

Rakesh, the day the paki elites clamor to send their lazy progeny to Tsinghua Univ, instead of khan-madarassas is the day cheen becomes a threat from west. Until then it will be a logistics hub. Pakis are using cheen to entice an estranged lover. Once khan gives them a dole of afghan pie,it will be go back to normal begging bowl for Solahs

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1410
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 07 Feb 2019 14:43

Thanks Admiral & Kit.
I didn't know that it happened.

Interesting both parties were flying at altitudes and peeking at each other.
Nice Nice

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10584
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 07 Feb 2019 15:46

hnair wrote:Rakesh, the day the paki elites clamor to send their lazy progeny to Tsinghua Univ, instead of khan-madarassas is the day cheen becomes a threat from west. Until then it will be a logistics hub. Pakis are using cheen to entice an estranged lover. Once khan gives them a dole of afghan pie,it will be go back to normal begging bowl for Solahs

+ Parking their ill-gotten wealth; I have heard of no case where the bakis politico/Military people parked their money in China but money stowed away in Khanisthan, Londonistan, Kanadiastan & Australistan apart for Dubai is well known.
+ Property purchase; Same story
+ Dual citizenship; Same story

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2019 16:00

Khalsa wrote:Thanks Admiral & Kit.
I didn't know that it happened.

Interesting both parties were flying at altitudes and peeking at each other.
Nice Nice


That really is nice. Unlike with Khan, Japan, Taiwan, etc. where chini intercepts and encounters are routine we have not had a single encounter between chini and Indian planes (or ships) that I could find.

I rather like the idea of regular contact with lizard forces besides the pushing and kungfu kicks of border guards.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2019 16:12

Google Earth intel technique. Factory grounds at Xian. Counting Y-20s.

Image
Image
Image

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Feb 2019 17:54

its the sinoMIC version of MNREGA

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7069
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 07 Feb 2019 20:53

chola wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Thanks Admiral & Kit.
I didn't know that it happened.

Interesting both parties were flying at altitudes and peeking at each other.
Nice Nice


That really is nice. Unlike with Khan, Japan, Taiwan, etc. where chini intercepts and encounters are routine we have not had a single encounter between chini and Indian planes (or ships) that I could find.

I rather like the idea of regular contact with lizard forces besides the pushing and kungfu kicks of border guards.

I'd say direct contact may probably not happen but im sure theres enough eyeballs on both sides. They have radars and a few fighter bases. We have many.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 23262
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby SSridhar » 07 Feb 2019 22:00

chola wrote:That really is nice. Unlike with Khan, Japan, Taiwan, etc. where chini intercepts and encounters are routine we have not had a single encounter between chini and Indian planes (or ships) that I could find.

Not violent or dare-devil intercepts.
But, INS Airavat was buzzed in July, 2011 on an open radio channel by a caller who identified himself as belonging to the Chinese navy and demanded the Indian warship identified itself and explain its presence on the waters there. INS Airavat was continuously tracked by PLAN during its entire voyage to the region and the order to challenge her came from the Chinese Naval Headquarters.

Almost a year later, in June 2012, a contingent of four Indian naval ships from Philippines to South Korea (and later to visit Shanghai too) received an unexpected message, “Welcome to the South China Sea, Foxtrot-47,” buzzed a PLAN frigate to the INS Shivalik (F47).”. For the next 12 hours, the Chinese warship would provide an unscheduled escort to the four Indian vessels.

In June 2016, a Chinese intelligence gathering ship tailed two IN warships, INS Sahyadri and INS Satpura, which were on their way to participate in Ex. Malabar 2016, and even entered the Japanese territorial waters until spotted by a Japanese P-3C patrol aircraft.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 08 Feb 2019 13:59

^^^ I know of those but hardly encounters on what the USN, Japan and Taiwan endure. Those are in transit to phoren places not routine challenges on LOCs. For Japan, those are in the 100s every year. The Japanese air self defense forces scrambled 850 times against chini planes (and another 200 against Russians!) No hard numbers on ships but it must be even greater since the chini Coast Guard and Maritime Militia are there too.

Our encounters even during Doklam are guys on foot.

Cheen is exceptionally weak in our neighborhood with barely a handful of ships and planes and even worse in manpower as they can only maintain a few brigades to our divisions.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 08 Feb 2019 14:08

Singha wrote:its the sinoMIC version of MNREGA



LOL. With Trump killing their export engine, they’ll be turning to the sinoMIC to provide more jobs to their rural masses.

There is literature out there that they do not have enough pilots and sailors to crew their new toys. But jobwise, during peace time, it is a better deal for society.

It takes a few million $$$ to train one pilot. You can probably train and employ hundreds if not thousands of peasants for the same amount assembling the Y-20.

All this goes to hell once you start fighting. But Cheen hadn’t fought in 40 years so it is a good strategy as long as they don’t go paki (“we are WARRIORS.”)

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Feb 2019 16:14

Singha wrote:its the sinoMIC version of MNREGA

may i propose the name ximic or ginmic??


chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 09 Feb 2019 16:58



How? The problem is roos and chinis operate close to home waters with Unkil sending ships from afar. They will always have the bigger supporting cast (not just their navies) to crowd you out.

Unless Unkil uses its advantage in firepower then they can’t rectify the situation. But then maybe that is exactly what the US chief means — they will start firing on Russkies and chinis trying to obstruct them or make it a clear threat so they’ll back off. Should be fun watching!

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2387
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby darshhan » 09 Feb 2019 22:40

Rakesh wrote:Read below. Folks on BRF start dhoti-shivering seeing the Chinese build capacity. But this is the reality. Others on BRF use the build capacity to scare monger folks into believing that only a strategic alliance with America will save India from Chinese assimilation (or otherwise annihilation).

The Chinese threat is very real and it requires a real response. But there is no need to buy into the hype & fear and make ad-hoc purchases called F-16 Block 70/72.

Chinese navy veteran warns training, not hardware is key to military preparedness
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... y-military

When Wang Yunfei, a retired Chinese naval officer, was on vacation in Okinawa in January, he watched with a heavy heart as Japanese fighter jets and helicopters carried out a routine training exercise at Naha Airport. The cloud was low and the sky was murky and overcast. “The cloud was barely 200 to 300 metres above ground and the jets immediately disappeared into the cloud after take-off,” Wang said. “In China, [our military planes] would not have taken off [for training] if the cloud was lower than 400 metres above ground,” he explained. “Such conditions are dangerous [for military aircraft to take off] but they were able to carry on training despite the weather.”

As China expands its military might with new aircraft carriers, advanced fighter jets and other world-class weaponry, questions have been raised about whether the People’s Liberation Army can compete with other advanced forces. Wang, now a naval armament expert, pointed out that size was only one determining factor in modern warfare, and hardware could only answer part of the question as China raced to catch up with leading powers like the US and its top allies, including Japan. “Doubling the number of our warships would not make our military twice as strong strategically,” he said. “It is the people who use these weapons that count, and that essentially boils down to our level of training.

“Some people hold the view that our military planes are more advanced than others. But if we look at the level of training of our forces ... We are not at the same level [as others] yet.” Antony Wong Dong, a military expert based in Macau who has spent years studying the PLA, agreed with Wang’s assessment. Although the PLA – which has not fought a major war since the Korean war – has made great strides in improving training for its rank and file in past decades, Wong said there was much room for improvement to raise its “preparedness”. That was in fact the message from President Xi Jinping in December in a speech reminding the top brass that strengthening training and preparation for war would be the top priorities for the PLA in 2019. Naha, in Japan’s Okinawa prefecture, is home to the 9th Air Wing, which was set up three years ago with 40 F-15 fighter jets.

It was a time of growing assertiveness by China in the East China Sea, including over the contested Diaoyu Islands, which are administered by Tokyo but also claimed by Beijing and Taipei. According to the Joint Staff of the Japanese defence ministry, in the 2017 fiscal year, which started on April 1, there were 500 scrambles by Japan’s Air Self-Defence Force to intercept Chinese military aircraft flying over the region, compared with 851 scrambles in 2016. But in the first three quarters of the 2018 fiscal year, the number of scrambles reached 476, as Xi pushed the PLA to conduct more training, including exercises further from home. And, as China starts testing its first home-made aircraft carrier, Tokyo announced in December that it would convert its helicopter carrier, the destroyer Izumo, into an aircraft carrier capable of launching American F-35B fighter jets.

Against such a background, Wang said China needed to reflect deeply on its overall military strength in addition to investing in cutting-edge weaponry. This was the reason for his heavy heart at Naha Airport, as he watched the extent of Japanese military training. “On that day it was not just the F-15s taking off [at Naha], but also Ospreys and Sikorsky Seahawks, and the training went on non-stop the whole day,” Wang said. “It immediately came to my mind that we should not look down upon the Japanese forces. We must bear in mind that the level of training reflects your level of combat preparedness. Our fleet of warships and military planes far outnumber the Japanese forces, even by the number of more advanced generations of fighter jets ... but in real combat, the size of the battlefield is limited, whether it is at sea or in the sky. You cannot deploy everything you have. And when both sides deploy the same resources into the battlefield, we must not be blindly [optimistic] about our chance of winning.”

The rapid development of new hardware could also pose challenges for training Chinese troops, especially in helping them master the skills necessary to use and understand the new weapons. “We are still exploring. It is not that we are slack. [These new weapons] are just too advanced,” Wang said. “Like [the stealth fighter jet] J-20... or [carrier-based fighter jet] J-15, we initially didn’t know how to make the best use of them in different circumstances. “We only recently mastered how to take off and land [J-15s] at night. It is not certain if we are ready to undertake evening flight missions of these aircraft when they are loaded with heavy missiles,” he said. Military expert Wong said the PLA had yet to resolve many issues, including pairing up its J-15 fighter jets and its aircraft carriers. “To what extent can PLA troops and these weapons work seamlessly in executing tactics?” Wong said. “From what we saw on the news, [I would say that] there are still gaps in the quality and quantity of weapons that [our carrier-based aircraft] can actually carry.”


Few moons back we actually discussed this on this very forum. Only now the Chinese admiral is admitting it. However just realising that training is more important than hardware is not enough. There is an important catch. Training should not just be hard and rigorous but also right. That right training can emanate only from actual combat experience. This combat experience provides the needed feedback for correct training regimen which further gets utilised in the next combat zone. Thus this closed loop of combat and training is absolutely needed for the right training. This is the actual achilles heel for China. They have zero combat experience for the last 40 years which is a huge time period to go without right feedback. So they have a real problem on hands.

Now the question is even countries like Japan do not have much combat experience in recent years. But they nullify this by participating heavily in various exercises like Pacific Rim and with countries like US/India etc. These exercises can be very realistic and very enriching. China being more isolated strategically has not many partners with which it can exercise. Except Russia(even this is a recent development) and Pakistan, I cannot think of many countries who exercise regularly with China. So they are working in relative vaccum here. In such case it is very hard to validate the training regimen employed by their military.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 10 Feb 2019 02:18

darshhan wrote:They have zero combat experience for the last 40 years which is a huge time period to go without right feedback. So they have a real problem on hands.


Only a problem if they were dumb enough to start a war or someone else were bold enough to give one to them.

If they had no war in last 40 years what makes the next 40 any different especially when they will be even bigger with less countries willing to do a punch up with them?

Cheen is like a giant herbivore that can’t fight but so big that no one wants to fight it. The air force and fleet in being work very well in this case.

They are banking that at some point in the future they will put so many ships, planes and artificial islands into their surrounding seas that it is fait accompli without a shot ever fired.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Feb 2019 04:43

^^one genuine question, when did japanese last faught?It's not just about when did the army fight last. By that logic wont pakis be better than us, coz they fought their own talibunnies in their west? Underestimating them is the worst thing we can do.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 10 Feb 2019 09:18

^^^ It is not a matter of underestimating. It is a matter of looking at the right strategy.

I have no doubt based strictly on numbers alone that any war between Cheen and India will result in an Indian victory. You don’t even have to guess what our training advantages are. And we have better training without doubt.

When the IA outnumber Cheen up to 15 to 1 in any likely theater of operations, the IAF 100s of aircraft to a few dozens chini one and IN with its full fleet to a literal handful of PLAN ships in the IOR then there can only be victory. This is why I wanted action during Doklam.

But if the chini strategy does not involve war and ours does not allow us to go on the offensive to start one then all that warfighting advantage goes for naught.

In the end, nuclear states simply do not fight each other. There is too much risk that things would go nuclear whenever one side feels it is losing.

The competition between great powers will be with their MICs to fill in the gray zones and global commons. As one very smart Wall Street analyst said to me once over a discussion of competition — the global commons include the depths of the oceans to all of space. Corporations and states will race to fill them. Think about it, the moon is no different than the SCS and whoever sends the most vehicles there will own it.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 10 Feb 2019 09:32

Cheen has proclaimed itself a arctic state in preparation for ice melt opening a viable fabled "NW passage" between the north pacific to north atlantic and a "siberian passage" from the bering sea to GIUK region the other way around for year round container and tanker ships. the first team which did it, abandoned the failed approach of regular ocean going ships and fell back to light SF mode use of much smaller vessel which could hug the shore and sail through 3 feet of draft. even then it was a tough fight for 3 years. it was done by none other than roald amundsen and a team of 6.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest ... expedition
they were the kind of men for whom going 100s of km xcountry in the ice and sea, foraging for fish and fowl and fighting off polar bears was part and parcel of life. a singular breed of men amundsen , shackleton types. peace n domesticity kills their soul as surely as war does others.

everyone has thrown their hat into the arctic ring in preparation for the plunder of resources organic and inorganic. the Bear is racing to build scale and resources to safeguard its (major) share of the spoils given its a sub arctic state in nature.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9849
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby sum » 10 Feb 2019 18:55

ArjunPandit wrote:^^one genuine question, when did japanese last faught?It's not just about when did the army fight last. By that logic wont pakis be better than us, coz they fought their own talibunnies in their west? Underestimating them is the worst thing we can do.

^++1

Sounds eerily similar to TSPA argument during Kargil that IA had never fought a war since 71 and had got used to counter insurgency and not actual fighting.

We all know how that went

souravB
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby souravB » 10 Feb 2019 20:20

^^it is not only when they fought but also how they fought.
If we look at their way of fighting during WW2 and Vietnam or even Korean War, the predominant tactic was to send wave after wave in front of the enemy until the enemy is tired or run out of bullets. Which btw doesn't work with enemies having moderate to good firepower. ex. Japan just rollovered them in WW2.
By this trend we can see that they do not take lessons from previous wars since they employed the same in Korean as well as Vietnam War with some degree of success in the latter. We can also discuss about the Indian War and their success but the underlying doctrine also was same.
They have a large force and lots of equipment now, but the equipments were not born out of necessity but in a desire to ape their adversary. Hence the reports of their soldiers unable to use the equipments.
During a war whoever can adapt wins and adaptation of doctrine, equipment, manpower comes from use of them on the field.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6658
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Feb 2019 09:58

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/109 ... 50657?s=20 —> The original plan for Chinese Aircraft Carriers program:

Total Six carriers -

CV-16
CV-17, based on CV-16, modified
CV-18, flat top, conventional powered, IEPS
CV-19, modified, convectional powered
CV-20, nuclear powered,10000+ T displacement
CV-21, cousin

Image

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 11 Feb 2019 10:13

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1094621330782150657?s=20 —> The original plan for Chinese Aircraft Carriers program:

Total Six carriers -

CV-16
CV-17, based on CV-16, modified
CV-18, flat top, conventional powered, IEPS
CV-19, modified, convectional powered
CV-20, nuclear powered,10000+ T displacement
CV-21, cousin

Image


CV-17 is a carbon copy of the Varyag.

CV-18/19 is just the Varyag with the skyjump shaved off.

Chinis slow as chit design-wise because they do incrementals but that allows lightning fast execution.

CVN 20/21 look like copies of Ford class and probably just chini daydreaming.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 11 Feb 2019 10:24

LOL. The paki site locked threads on the Varyag going to the PN. Those got a lot of derision from the local TFTAs. “So I see our whole navy will be composed of exactly one carrier with our budget ...“

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2306
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby abhik » 16 Feb 2019 20:56

The Diplomat: Predicting the Chinese Navy of 2030
In summary, an early 2019 prediction for PLAN ships in service by 2030 are broken down as such:

16-20 055/A destroyers (12,000 ton category)
36-40 052D/E destroyers (7,000 ton category)
40-50 054A/B frigates (4,000-5,000 ton category)
Approximately 60 SSKs
Anywhere from 16 or more SSNs (including six to eight existing SSNs)
Anywhere from eight or more SSBNs (including four to five existing SSBNs)
At least four aircraft carriers (two ski jump, two catapult)
At least eight 071 LPDs (25,000 ton category)
At least three 075 LHDs (36,000 ton category)

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4830
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Neshant » 17 Feb 2019 06:48

^^ Still far smaller than that of the USSR - except the aircraft carriers.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2387
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby darshhan » 17 Feb 2019 13:40

abhik wrote:The Diplomat: Predicting the Chinese Navy of 2030
In summary, an early 2019 prediction for PLAN ships in service by 2030 are broken down as such:

16-20 055/A destroyers (12,000 ton category)
36-40 052D/E destroyers (7,000 ton category)
40-50 054A/B frigates (4,000-5,000 ton category)
Approximately 60 SSKs
Anywhere from 16 or more SSNs (including six to eight existing SSNs)
Anywhere from eight or more SSBNs (including four to five existing SSBNs)
At least four aircraft carriers (two ski jump, two catapult)
At least eight 071 LPDs (25,000 ton category)
At least three 075 LHDs (36,000 ton category)


What about UUVs, USVs and UAVs. Does the author think any naval battle in 2030 will be fought without these? In that case good luck to him.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2387
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby darshhan » 17 Feb 2019 13:50

Have a look at China's UUV development news. The problem with most of the authors/experts/analysts is their habit of Linear thinking.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 64520
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 17 Feb 2019 14:48

Imo those kind of numbers need them to double down the already high rate of naval construction spend, training , opex and weapon budgets

Somehow i am not too sure how long the current frantic pace can be kept up. Need to yearly track the startt of constructions and look for taper

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3091
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 17 Feb 2019 15:05

darshhan wrote:What about UUVs, USVs and UAVs. Does the author think any naval battle in 2030 will be fought without these? In that case good luck to him.


They don’t list the UAVs in the PLAAF battle order either but we know their drones are sold by hundreds and the chini air force is an early adapter of gaming warfare (joystick, drone, missile for non-warrior nerds.)

The same with UUVs in their navy. The PLAN is an early adapter and is actually working on a drone submersible with AI strategy. Autonomous killing machines to do away with communication issues with submerged vehicles. A step towards the world of Arnold Schwarzenneggar’s Terminator.

https://businessinsider.com/china-is-unmanned-drone-submarines-to-launch-a-new-era-of-sea-power-2018-7

'The AI has no soul': China is working on a fleet of drone submarines to launch a new era of sea power

Jul 25, 2018, 10:36 AM ET

China is developing large, smart and relatively low-cost unmanned submarines that can roam the world's oceans to perform a wide range of missions, from reconnaissance to mine placement to even suicide attacks against enemy vessels, according to scientists involved in these artificial intelligence (AI) projects.

The autonomous robotic submarines are expected to be deployed in the early 2020s.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: brar_w, gaurav.p, Jaeger, kapio, Karan M and 55 guests