China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Mar 2019 00:39

SaiK wrote:China's F-16: Meet the J-10 Fighter (Possibly Thanks to Israel)

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... rael-48727


Yup, Israel is another major conduit to Cheen along with the usual suspects mentioned above (France, Germany, Japan, SoKo, Taiwan and the US itself.)

The greatest coup in this affair was our swooping in to grab the Phalcon -- which had been developed for the Il-76 platform with chini money -- when the US blocked Israel from selling it to the PRC.


Austin wrote:I think J-10 will in next decade become a key fighter for PAF likely replacing the Mirage and other types .......... Quite a mature program by now in different variant and something PAF would be able to afford along with cheaper JF-17 that would the main stay.

Plus a squadron of J-31 beyond 2035 just to be on equal equal with IAF 5th gen program.


Austin ji, the J-10 is an old friend of mine. He was an easy punching bag two decades ago when he was our main rival to the LCA. In those days, there were very few pictures and the 50-centers had nothing but photoshops and drawings. I started calling the J-10 vaporware which gained a lot of traction in those days. It drove them crazy. lol

I always did like the J-10 (once I started seeing it in real pictures.) It had that Western elegance to it. Not russki at all like the rest of the J's.

I really despise the JF-17 being hyphened with Tejas. For me, the J-10 and its Lavi heritage, was the original -- and proper -- rival.

The Paki AMCA program is called AZM which as you mention will likely be a squadron of FC-31s (FC instead of "J" because it must be a mil project to receive the J moniker.) But re-painted in green.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Mar 2019 09:34

Chola Israel and China have great relation and the current Israel prime minister encouraged China “to assume its rightful place… on the world stage.” “We are your perfect junior partner for that effort,” Netanyahu added. “[…]I believe this is a marriage made in heaven.”

So what Israel cant pass overtly to China they do it covertly as Nutanyahu says Marriage Made in Heaven
Last edited by Austin on 28 Mar 2019 09:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Mar 2019 09:34

China working on terahertz radar prototypes

https://www.janes.com/article/87495/chi ... prototypes

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Mar 2019 14:34

Austin wrote:Chola Israel and China have great relation and the current Israel prime minister encouraged China “to assume its rightful place… on the world stage.” “We are your perfect junior partner for that effort,” Netanyahu added. “[…]I believe this is a marriage made in heaven.”

So what Israel cant pass overtly to China they do it covertly as Nutanyahu says Marriage Made in Heaven


Chini money and chini girls fuel heavenly marriages.

On the Street there are many prominent Jews who take chini brides.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Mar 2019 14:40

Their second carrier is nearing readiness for flight testing me thinks.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1111136765094567937

@Rupprecht_A
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Covering the Type 002 carrier's deck with the new non-skid primer seems to be done. Now the final layer


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2019 15:12

Secretary Pompeo

Verified account

@SecPompeo
13h13 hours ago
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China has detained more than one million #Uighurs, ethnic #Kazakhs, and other #Muslim minorities in internment camps in #Xinjiang since April 2017. The U.S. stands with them and their family members. China must release all those arbitrarily detained and end its repression.

138 replies 1,194 retweets 3,342 likes
Reply 138 Retweet 1.2K Like 3.3K

Secretary Pompeo
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The world cannot afford China’s shameful hypocrisy toward Muslims. On one hand, China abuses more than a million Muslims at home, but on the other it protects violent Islamic terrorist groups from sanctions at the UN.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Mar 2019 15:15

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:Chola Israel and China have great relation and the current Israel prime minister encouraged China “to assume its rightful place… on the world stage.” “We are your perfect junior partner for that effort,” Netanyahu added. “[…]I believe this is a marriage made in heaven.”

So what Israel cant pass overtly to China they do it covertly as Nutanyahu says Marriage Made in Heaven


Chini money and chini girls fuel heavenly marriages.

On the Street there are many prominent Jews who take chini brides.

i wont be surprised if some of these marriages are espionaage marriages.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Mar 2019 15:17

^^^ Muslims, Jews and Gentiles. Cheen is in bed with all of them.

Some desis too. lol

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Mar 2019 15:29

BTW, Cheen garners a lot of fascination from the gora Far Right. Trump supporters see Cheen as a rival that needs to be beaten but they like the Lizard's no-nonsense approach on Islam (and racial identity.)

Brenton Tarrant who slaughtered 50 muslims in New Zealand:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/new-zealand-shooting-manifesto-brenton-tarrant-china-a8835671.html

The suspect said he identifies most closely with what he sees as the Chinese government’s values, and that the Asian country’s strength comes from its being largely ethnically homogeneous. Specifically, the manifesto praises China’s “political and social values” and its being a “non-diversified country.”


These views are popular with white males on the right and are applied to Japan and Korea as well: light-skinned and homogenous -- as opposed to "mixed", "muddy" and diverse which Yurop and the US are becoming.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2019 19:23

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Mar 2019 16:32

This tweet is a good example of chini watching. The red number on the J-10 (0339) can be interpreted as batch number and the number of the aircraft.

Since number 0302 was confirmed in October 2018 and now 0339 in March 2019, we can make an educated guess on the rate of production per batch. Around 40 aircraft every six months if 0302 was spotted shortly after delivery from the line.

https://twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1111530639491244032

@Rupprecht_A
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The so far highest construction number spotted on any J-10C: Batch 03 aircraft 39.
To remember the first Batch 03 aircraft were only confirmed as 0302 and 0303 in mid-October 2018.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2019 19:02

>> Around 40 aircraft every six months

if they are really inducting 80 J10 every 6 months, does it mean the PLAAF is increasing in size of these are replacements for the F7, JH7 and J8 squadrons?

how many of their vast holding of these 3 types is really battleworthy i wonder - wiki totals up some 800 of these types.

perhaps it too is a employment generation scheme of sorts?

https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/china/airforce

the long list of bases would rival the P2, but somehow their orbat looks forlorn to me ...

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 29 Mar 2019 19:23

Singha wrote:Secretary Pompeo

Verified account

@SecPompeo
13h13 hours ago
More
China has detained more than one million #Uighurs, ethnic #Kazakhs, and other #Muslim minorities in internment camps in #Xinjiang since April 2017. The U.S. stands with them and their family members. China must release all those arbitrarily detained and end its repression.

138 replies 1,194 retweets 3,342 likes
Reply 138 Retweet 1.2K Like 3.3K

Secretary Pompeo
Verified account

@SecPompeo
Follow Follow @SecPompeo
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The world cannot afford China’s shameful hypocrisy toward Muslims. On one hand, China abuses more than a million Muslims at home, but on the other it protects violent Islamic terrorist groups from sanctions at the UN.


That reminds me Couple years ago Pakistan threatened to stop Jf-17 export to Myanmar after Rohingya crisis and China essentially put Pakistan in its place and exports/spares continued.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Mar 2019 13:48

Singha wrote:>> Around 40 aircraft every six months

if they are really inducting 80 J10 every 6 months, does it mean the PLAAF is increasing in size of these are replacements for the F7, JH7 and J8 squadrons?

how many of their vast holding of these 3 types is really battleworthy i wonder - wiki totals up some 800 of these types.

perhaps it too is a employment generation scheme of sorts?

https://www.scramble.nl/orbats/china/airforce

the long list of bases would rival the P2, but somehow their orbat looks forlorn to me ...


I should say it takes them six months to produce a batch of 40. It doesn't mean they are continously producing batches. This is the 3rd for the "C" variant.

Manufacture is rapid. But induction? Probably not. We have satellite pictures in this thread where they had 20 odd J-10s stacked up on manufacturer grounds. It looks like they are outstripping the PLAAF's ability to accept them in terms of trained ground crews and pilots. Cheen has the same issue with their navy but whereas a ship can sail with a smaller crew of greenhorns you can't really do that with planes.

I think the JH-7s are battleworthy for the most part because they are strike platforms on the coast facing the USN and Unkil allies. The J-7s and J-8s are probably derelict with ground crews being retrained for the modern types. There are many reports that Cheen is stretched for everything aviation because their civilian air industry is eating up pilots and maintenance crews at a furious pace.

In fact, this brings up an issue that affects the global air carriers industry. Chini airlines are a big problem poaching pilots (and maintenance personnel) not just from the PLAAF but from around the world.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-lands-south-korean-pilots-in-race-to-fill-cockpits-1459501736

“In China you can see planes grounded just because there aren’t enough captains to fill the cockpits,” said Mr. Lee, who left Korean Air three years ago to join the biggest Chinese airline by fleet size, China Southern Airlines Co. He said his team alone last year hired at least 40 pilots, mainly from European budget carriers.

Veteran pilots from South Korean airlines are among those most sought-after by Chinese carriers for their level of training and cultural proximity, experts say. But their departure is draining Korean carriers of experience and pressuring staff schedules, leading the pilots union to demand large wage increases and raise safety fears.


Indian pilots are in demand too as the Chini poaching creates a drain across East Asia:

https://wap.business-standard.com/article-amp/international/tax-free-pay-bungalow-and-more-how-china-taiwan-and-japan-are-luring-indian-pilots-116120200866_1.html

Rakesh Kapoor, a senior pilot with a leading domestic carrier, was pleasantly surprised when he got an offer in his mailbox, to fly a Boeing 737 in China. Leading Chinese carrier China Southern Airlines offered an attractive financial package, along with accommodation, domestic help and an interpreter for personal use.
“The offer was very lucrative, about $300,000 per annum and that is purely tax free. You can’t think of making that much money at my level in India,” said Kapoor, who has not made up his mind about the offer yet.


Everything is a jobs program in Cheen. They need to keep a billion people working for social stability. It is the commies' implicit contract with their people after the Tianenmen Square massacre.

Just as the carriers industry employs millions, the building of airplanes and ships also employs many more milions than the crews needed to maintain and drive them. Cheen seems far more focused on manufacture than service as a society.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 30 Mar 2019 14:36

With that kind of money the Jet Airway folks flying 737 would be moving to China soon .......Tax free is quite lucrative if you manage to get such salary here you end up paying 30 % Tax

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 30 Mar 2019 15:28

^^^ Lol. That will be close to $100,000 in taxes please. Hurts to even think about it. But I believe junior pilots are under contract for 5 years as industry standards? So only the senior ones can leave for greener pasteurs which can't be good for the airlines if your experienced guys are going and leaving behind less experienced pilots probably grating under contracts they're not happy about.

Of course, grass is not always greener on the other side. Unfortunately for one of our boys, the Lion airline -- even before the Max 8 disaster -- was cited for many safety violations including overworking pilots to the point of exhaustion.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby rkhanna » 30 Mar 2019 16:43

Manufacture is rapid. But induction? Probably not. We have satellite pictures in this thread where they had 20 odd J-10s stacked up on manufacturer grounds. It looks like they are outstripping the PLAAF's ability to accept them in terms of trained ground crews and pilots


China has (all likely hood) refined the J-10 over its production run. IMO they will replace the initial batches with the new productions. Polish and sell off/donate the old planes as part of their OBOR plans to their "allies" such as Myanmar , Nigeria, Venezula etc.

Even if unfit/unable for combat (due to pilot shortage) they will serve China's strategic national policy directives.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 30 Mar 2019 17:49

Does Russia produces so many AL31 per year? For Russia, India & China?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Mar 2019 16:06

nam wrote:Does Russia produces so many AL31 per year? For Russia, India & China?


There is this discussion on AFM and other forums. The number of engines sold from Russia (officially) to Cheen falls short of the number of aircraft built by a wide margin.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Mar 2019 16:17

Cheen hawking a lot of chit to Marathir and Malaysia. Most interesting are the frigates and submarines.

Especially the subs. They are exporting a whole range from 200-tons to 2600. Thailand and Pakistan (of course) have bought the 2600-ton models. Bangladesh had bought old obsolete cold war cast-offs from Cheen but will most likely upgrade to one of these in the coming years. These things will be in the neighborhood.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 31 Mar 2019 16:37

chola wrote:
nam wrote:Does Russia produces so many AL31 per year? For Russia, India & China?


There is this discussion on AFM and other forums. The number of engines sold from Russia (officially) to Cheen falls short of the number of aircraft built by a wide margin.


So Chinis must be license producing AL31, with some critical parts coming from Russia. Along with this full engine which gets listed as export.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 31 Mar 2019 17:06

^^^ That is my guess, Nam ji. But Cheen has no (official) license to build the Al-31 locally unlike the MKI project. They can overhaul but not build.

But that supposed arraignment doesn't square with reports like this:

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defence/chinas-fighter-jets-in-tibet-overcome-high-altitude-engine-problems-report/amp_articleshow/63321125.cms

China's third generation fighter jets seem to have overcome their engine problems plaguing them while flying over high-altitude regions in Tibet bordering India, according to a media report today.

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) has posted video footage of drills by Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11 fighter jets flying low over snow-capped mountains on Monday, suggesting that the military has overcome engine problems afflicting the aircraft at high altitude areas, the Hong Kong-based South China Morning Post (SCMP) reported.

The jets are part of China's fleet of third-generation lightweight multi-role fighter aircraft, powered by Russian AL-31F engines.


When the story came out, watchers asked how were the PLAAF able to make changes to an engine that was supposed to be imported whole from Russia. The guess was the overhaul facility at Shenyang was doing a lot more than overhauling especially with regards to the strange looking ones on the J-20.

The "special" relationship with Russia, touted by Filipov and his ilk, is BS. To an observer in the US or Japan, Cheen has an even "specialler" relationship with full rights to Flanker variants and engines (don't forget the RD-33/RD-93/WS-13 for the Blunder.)

Russia helped Cheen with their Brahmos too:
https://sputniknews.com/amp/military/201611111047331408-china-antiship-missile-russia-pacific/
China's new CM-302 supersonic anti-ship cruise missile is a variation on Russia's Yakhont missile, and the development will worry the US as it tries to impose its authority in the Pacific region, military expert Vasiliy Kashin told Sputnik.


I would not risk blindly accepting that any of our Russkie ventures are not already compromised with data being passed on to Cheen. Not through spying but just through sales of technology and marketing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 31 Mar 2019 23:55

With boxy side intake the CM-302 looks similar to French ASMP , cheen must be doing wind tunnel test of all known working design and must be choosing the one that fits their ramjet to save time

Indian Brahmos has 2nd gen TVC nozzle ramjet engine ( first gem being the one use on sunburn which did not have tvc hence huge control surface ) hence the lack of many movable control surface on Brahmos and relatively shorter clipped wings

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Vips » 01 Apr 2019 18:32

China mulls to buy Russia's Su-57 stealth fighter jet.

Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times that it is possible that China could make the purchase because China needs to study from other countries' strengths whenever possible.


Future IP theft is being put for now as 'study' :rotfl:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 01 Apr 2019 18:35

Vips wrote:China mulls to buy Russia's Su-57 stealth fighter jet.

Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times that it is possible that China could make the purchase because China needs to study from other countries' strengths whenever possible.


Future IP theft is being put for now as 'study' :rotfl:


Most likely they will buy a few for " study purposes" maybe a dozen or so but definitely NOT in hundreds

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 01 Apr 2019 19:17

kit wrote:
Vips wrote:China mulls to buy Russia's Su-57 stealth fighter jet.



Future IP theft is being put for now as 'study' :rotfl:


Most likely they will buy a few for " study purposes" maybe a dozen or so but definitely NOT in hundreds


I said years ago that this was going to happen. I knew when they bought 24 SU-35s.

There is nothing Russia will not sell to Cheen if the money is good enough. Watch, they will get the full TOT too just like the Flanker.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 01 Apr 2019 19:20

Vips wrote:China mulls to buy Russia's Su-57 stealth fighter jet.

Xu Guangyu, a senior consultant at the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association, told the Global Times that it is possible that China could make the purchase because China needs to study from other countries' strengths whenever possible.


Future IP theft is being put for now as 'study' :rotfl:

for all we know this could be the usual scaremongering technique like Su 35 to pakis. This may be more real because chinese have $$s but i would wait for it to happen.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Shameek » 01 Apr 2019 21:37

Taiwan scrambles jets to confront Chinese fighters

Taiwan has accused China of "reckless and provocative" action, after two Chinese air force jets crossed a maritime border separating the island from the mainland.
The island's military scrambled fighter planes after it said two Chinese J-11 fighter jets crossed the border within the waters of the Taiwan Strait, known as the median line, at about 11 a.m. on Sunday.


Link


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 01 Apr 2019 21:42

Chinese Su-57's are a question of "when" and not "if". Will China become the first export customer? It is quite possible but all depends upon on how fast the RuAF can induct and begin mass producing these aircraft. If they can get to a 100 or so by 2025 then other smaller operators in the ME or Asia can also tag along. Otherwise, until it reaches that critical level and production quantity only the larger operators like China and India will place orders in quantity IMHO.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Vips » 01 Apr 2019 23:13

Interesting that Russia is offering an 'export version' to India, China and other countries. This will be stripped down version of the original and Russia would keep the most potent version for itself.

Nonetheless if the engine is the same for the chinese it would be like getting it on a platter. Russia is powerless and knows it getting screwed is inevitable.

I hope the Japanese speed up the development of their FGFA.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Apr 2019 00:36

Looks like Philipinnes will have to accept CHinese control of spratly's, they are being forced out.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby souravB » 02 Apr 2019 03:16

If we consider the scenario of China ordering Su-57 as true:
One/both of the following scenario got to be true then
  1. J-20 is a dud. Copying external appearance from F35 and F22 didn't got them where they wanted to go. Avionics and sensors are mostly 3rd gen and doesn't get any better than old J-15s. They need Russia's aesa radars and sensor tech along with better avionics than they can produce now.
  2. WS-15 is a dud. It doesn't have power/reliability/T:W ratio enough for it to be used in any platforms they have or want to produce. They need the project 117 engine TOT, will be producing them enmasse and just label it as WS-15.
This buying of Su-57E version will just be another wink-wink-nudge-nudge for Russia to sell their tech to China under the guise of platform sale for a boatload of money. Russia currently cannot pour money into R&D for fifth gen platforms so China comes to buy their technology in exchange for a sustained production of Su-57 for Russia.
Also shows the advance of China in modern avionics or engine tech.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 02 Apr 2019 10:46

souravB wrote:If we consider the scenario of China ordering Su-57 as true:
One/both of the following scenario got to be true then
  1. J-20 is a dud. Copying external appearance from F35 and F22 didn't got them where they wanted to go. Avionics and sensors are mostly 3rd gen and doesn't get any better than old J-15s. They need Russia's aesa radars and sensor tech along with better avionics than they can produce now.
  2. WS-15 is a dud. It doesn't have power/reliability/T:W ratio enough for it to be used in any platforms they have or want to produce. They need the project 117 engine TOT, will be producing them enmasse and just label it as WS-15.
This buying of Su-57E version will just be another wink-wink-nudge-nudge for Russia to sell their tech to China under the guise of platform sale for a boatload of money. Russia currently cannot pour money into R&D for fifth gen platforms so China comes to buy their technology in exchange for a sustained production of Su-57 for Russia.
Also shows the advance of China in modern avionics or engine tech.


The J-20 and WS-15 will be duds until they are not duds. Just like the J-10 and WS-10.

They rarely give up on a domestic system. The WS-10 was a bust early on but now it is mature to the point of a TVC on the single-engined J-10. The J-10 itself (unlike the clean safety record of Tejas) was a widow maker early on but they persevered to the "C" variant today.

Getting Russian tech is an important way for them to fix their duds with TOT. The results from RE through spying is slow and spotty for modern systems. Look at their Z-20 Copy Hawk -- 30 years and still not in mass production.

Compared to their Flanker series with direct TOT from Russians. That grew into a dozen variants including a carrier version within a decade after the SU-27 contract. It was re-engined with the WS-10 within five years after the chini line was in place. This would not have been possible without massive Russian involvement.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 02 Apr 2019 11:16

is the ws10n use in j10 or on su27(j15) also now?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 02 Apr 2019 11:49

Singha wrote:is the ws10n use in j10 or on su27(j15) also now?


The WS-10 had been standard on their SU-27/30 ripoffs J-11Bs and J-16s for a while now but too iffy for their single-engined J-10 or their carrier-borne J-15.

In the recent tweet posted earlier here the J-10C will be getting the WS-10 this year after a four-year testing period had just ended. The twin-seat J-15S and J-15T CATOBAR prototypes have WS-10s.

The WS-10 is based on a RE'd Amreeki CFM56 civil engine core. But there is speculation that they took features from the Russkie AL-31 to carry them over the final mile.

They were in Russia at Gromov with the WS-10 at the same time we were there with the Kaveri.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby esommuk » 02 Apr 2019 11:56

China being a communist state jobs is important as most of their party cadres are workers. It is a good strategy ...... spending money to keep people in meaningful employment, providing them training/skills and producing on a mass scale (as compared to MNREGA). Hallmark of typical Soviet style military-industrial manufacturing complexes. At the very least the maturity of manufacturing process improves, significant R&D takes place and people are up-skilled by the day. The bonus is the export market.

Completely different to India's defence PSU / DRDO approach

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 02 Apr 2019 13:08



What you did not read and focus on
Viktor Kladov, director of international cooperation and regional policy at Russia's Rostec defence industrial holding company identified India and China as potential buyers, state-run Global Times reported on Monday.

Russian Analyst doing what they do best.

Chinese defence analyst Wang Ya'nan, the chief editor of Aerospace Knowledge, said Russia's offer to sell SU-57 is more attractive to India as China has its stealth fighter. Unlike China, India does not have a fifth-generation fighter, so the Su-57 is an attractive warplane to India, he told Global Times.


Wang said although he is convinced of the Su-57's capabilities, he is less keen to see China buy it because China has already developed its own fifth-generation fighter jet J-20.


However, Chinese defence analyst Wang said China is perfecting its own fifth-generation technology as the J-20 is on the way to being mass produced. During this period, integrating another fighter jet into the fleet could bring challenges to the integration of the Chinese military's weapons and equipment systems and disrupt development and training plans, he said.


What you should have read again and again
The Chinese air force, which currently has a range of homegrown new aircraft including the stealth fighter J-20, besides Russia's Su 35s, is keeping a close eye on India's acquisition of France's Rafale plane adding a new strategic dimension to its air assets.



Okay so back to the Mk2 for LCA and AMCA for all of Dhoti wallas, ze DLAGON is not happy with PeeLanes.

The repetitive stress on Su-35 and Su-57 tells me the J-10 series has not gained satisfactory acceptance or confidence levels within China's Military analysts circles as well.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby souravB » 02 Apr 2019 17:47

chola wrote:
Compared to their Flanker series with direct TOT from Russians. That grew into a dozen variants including a carrier version within a decade after the SU-27 contract. It was re-engined with the WS-10 within five years after the chini line was in place. This would not have been possible without massive Russian involvement.

I have a theory about WS-10. They weren't able to manufacture the WS-10, so they bought some Su-35 and also buying components of hot sections along with thrust vectoring section of AL-31/41 to produce WS-10.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 03 Apr 2019 13:45

Khalsa wrote:Okay so back to the Mk2 for LCA and AMCA for all of Dhoti wallas, ze DLAGON is not happy with PeeLanes.

The repetitive stress on Su-35 and Su-57 tells me the J-10 series has not gained satisfactory acceptance or confidence levels within China's Military analysts circles as well.


I think that goes without saying when you consider the amount of advanced nations and platforms Cheen faces. I don't believe they think the J-10 can hack it when they are majorly invested in heavy platforms like the Flanker ripoffs and J-20.

But this does not stop them from making some 500 J-10s so far. The latest batch of 40 in six months is an indication there will probably be many more in the future. As stated earlier, the production rate looks like it is outstripping the PLAAF's ability to man them.

Maybe a lesson in that. They will induct a less than perfect local system in large numbers to make sure the industrial base can advance and grow. The MIC is more important than the military to them providing jobs and technological advancement. I think they are right 99.999% of the time on this -- the 0.001 percent being a major hot war which IMO cannot be fought between great powers anyways when they all have nooks.


souravB wrote:
chola wrote:
Compared to their Flanker series with direct TOT from Russians. That grew into a dozen variants including a carrier version within a decade after the SU-27 contract. It was re-engined with the WS-10 within five years after the chini line was in place. This would not have been possible without massive Russian involvement.

I have a theory about WS-10. They weren't able to manufacture the WS-10, so they bought some Su-35 and also buying components of hot sections along with thrust vectoring section of AL-31/41 to produce WS-10.


Sir, they bought 24 SU-35s in 2015. They've been cranking large numbers of WS-10-engined Flankers for a decade.

But you are not wrong in that they had major issues with the WS-10 that was progressively fixed with Russkie help. The major factor in my mind is the advent of AL-31 at the Shenyang engine plant. Note, the AL-31 overhaul unit, the WS-10 manufacturing plant and the Flanker lines are all in Shenyang.

Thrust vectoring on the TVC WS-10 is very different from complex ball joint on the AL-31/41. It is more in commin with the Amreeki AVEN project on the F-15/F-16 where the directed thrust is done through the petals not moving the entire nozzle like the AL-31/41.

The S117 (AL-41) that Cheen received on the SU-35:
Image

The WS-10 TVC:
Image

AVEN on the F-15:
Image

MATV on the F-16:
Image

I find chinis more apt to ape Unkil wherever they could even though they have practical access to the Russkies.


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