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China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Jul 2017 19:18

chinese-army-conducts-live-fire-drills-in-tibet

There is a message to India as the article says, but the message should be to conduct a full scale fire exercise rather than DS.
That reminds me that IA hasnt done any major exercise in our eastern borders for long. I know IAF has done ex pralay but there is not much news about it. This thing has always intrigued me why is it so. Could be be our pacifist policies or lack of infra or our active exercises on western border that give us adequate exposure to avoid replicating the effort.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 19 Jul 2017 17:46

New BVRAAM may have entered PLAAF service



Images have emerged on Chinese online military forums showing a People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) J-10C combat aircraft armed with what appears to be a new beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

The fighter was photographed carrying two PL-10 short-range AAMs on its outer underwing pylons and two of the new missiles on its mid-underwing pylons.

Although nomenclature is uncertain as no official information is forthcoming, it is likely that the new missile is the one being referred to unofficially as the PL-15, with its appearance on the underwing pylons of a J-10C possibly reflecting that it is now in service.

The missile is estimated to be around 3.7 m long, with a diameter of 200 mm. It is fitted with low aspect ratio aerodynamic stabilising surfaces (trapezoidal wings) on its mid-section and at the moveable control surfaces (clipped delta fins) at its tail.

The respective surface spans approximately 390 mm and 515 mm. There is no visible evidence of a thrust vectoring control (TVC) system present at the rear of the new missile, as can clearly be seen on the PL-10, so control appears to be aerodynamic only. Additionally, there are no air intakes that would be necessary if propulsion was provided by a ramjet, so it can be assumed that a standard form rocket motor is being used.

Photographs of a similar missile carried by a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation J-16 emerged in 2012, which is thought to be undergoing development trials. Like the recent sighting, the missile’s aerodynamic surfaces are the same low aspect ratio planform, which facilitates loading in the internal weapons bay of the CAC J-20 'fifth-generation' fighter.

Images appeared in 2013 of a J-20 carrying the missile, which has the capacity to take up to four of them in its weapons bay. It would seem a second of the new missiles was present in the bay, albeit without its aerodynamic surfaces attached.

Currently, the PLAAF’s principal in-service BVRAAM is the PL-12, which was introduced around 2005 and is thought to have a range of 60-70 km and a maximum speed at altitude of approximately Mach 4. The export version of the PL-12 is believed to be the SD-10.

Characteristics of the new missile are inevitably speculative, although it is reasonable to expect improvements over the PL-12. One usually well informed and reliable source assesses that the missile has a dual pulse rocket motor that may extend its range out to 200 km. It is also thought to be equipped with active/passive electronically scanned array radar and datalinking, which would support long-range engagements and make the missile less vulnerable to electronic countermeasures.

The recently photographed missile is not the same as another long-range AAM seen under the wing of a J-16 in December 2016 when it was thought to be undergoing trials. The nomenclature for this missile is also unknown, so it is commonly referred to as PL-X.

At around 5.8 m in length and 300 mm in diameter, it is much larger than the missile seen carried by the J-10C and has control surfaces only at the tail, although the short extension at the rear of the missile could possibly be some form of TVC system.

Having been photographed being carried by J-10, J-16, and J-20 aircraft, it is reasonable to assume that the new missile is intended to become the PLAAF’s main BVRAAM, and that it will be used by naval combat aircraft as well.

It is thought that targeting data for the missile can be supplied over the datalink by airborne early warning and control aircraft such as the KJ-500 and KJ-2000. Not only will this offer potentially longer-range detections than those achievable using the launch aircraft's radar, but it will also reduce the likelihood that the firing platform will be detected by the target aircraft.



Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 19 Jul 2017 19:38

^^^
Probably using the same Russian seeker head as the R-77. Nothing to worry about.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 19 Jul 2017 19:45

This report seems to imply that it using a new seeker, different from their other BVRAAM/PL-12 which borrows the seeker and data-link from the R-77.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby DavidD » 20 Jul 2017 09:09

Some news on the PLA orbat reform (from Forbin on SDF), not sexy topic but quite important operationally.

The red line outlines disbanded corps:

Image

The remaining corps are undergoing brigadization, including the formation of combined arms brigades as following:

4 x combined arms battalion (合成营)
- each battalion (31 IFV + 40 MBT/Assault vehicle + 6 x 120mm mortar): 3 x IFV (装步连) company, 2 x tank (坦克连) company (only for 2 battalion) or assault vehicle (突击车连) company, 1 x 6x120mm mortar (炮兵连) company.

1 x artillery battalion (火炮营)
- comprising 4 x 9 gun (炮兵连) company or 2x9 gun (炮兵连)+ 2x 9 MRL company (火箭炮连), 1 x 4 ATGM (反坦克连) company

1 x air defence battalion (防空营)
- comprising 2 x 9 AAA (高炮连) company, 2 x 9 SAM (防空导单) company

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby deejay » 20 Jul 2017 10:31

DavidD wrote:Some news on the PLA orbat reform (from Forbin on SDF), not sexy topic but quite important operationally.

...


Is their any info on UAV orbat on the Chinese side?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Jul 2017 20:33

A list of major Chinese military installations, radar sites and logistics hubs near the border with India with coordinates. Will provide kmz file later
https://youtu.be/KtCb2P_KOgA

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby deejay » 23 Jul 2017 20:56

^^^ Tweet it sir.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Jul 2017 21:11

^^Done

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby AdityaM » 26 Jul 2017 00:37

From twitter:

https://twitter.com/hdevreij/status/889842784584294400

Dutch civilian airline pilot witnessed a presumed Chinese (ABM?) missile launch over the Himalayas. Pics copyright: Christiaan van Heijst

Image

Image


https://twitter.com/defconwsalerts/stat ... 2504283136
Transporter vehicles carrying equipment for the firing of a ballistic missile were seen arriving in Kusong, North Pyongan Province


More info and pics from the pilot
https://jpcvanheijst.com/blogs/2017/07/ ... over-china

http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/st ... 495336818/

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 26 Jul 2017 01:24

What the heck are these that require boring through hills to form a line that stretches all along the TsangPo river?
From 29°17'04.7"N 91°09'05.3"E to 29°17'21.4"N 91°02'58.9"E

Also looks like a massive subterranean whatever - Two tunnel entrances at Shannan -29°12'28.0"N 91°44'43.7"E

Another slightly to the north, on the other side of the hill - Two entrances again (at different levels?) 29°14'31.7"N 91°44'13.6"E

Note the racetrack type whitish road structure close to both tunnels? What are those? And are those orange trucks construction trucks ?

And what are these at 29°13'01.2"N 91°42'08.4"E ? Also at 29°12'34.6"N 91°43'09.1"E

Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E
Power Substation (I think. Looks that way with all the transmission lines leading from/to it) - 29°15'43.3"N 91°52'57.4"E There is a small track leading E from the SE corner to some 'thing'. Can anyone ID what that is? 4 holes in the ground surrounded by 4 mounds?

Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E
Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.

Bing maps appears to have older images than google. That last structure isn't present in bing. Same with all those trucks at that compound in Shannan. Guess Shannan, sitting at that tri-junction with the S202 that leads to border/Bum La pass will be figure quite extensively in our target list. Electricity being a prime target. And dams. Wrecking the Lhasa river might starve the city but flood everything downstream pretty quickly.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2017 08:09

Prasad wrote:Also looks like a massive subterranean whatever - Two tunnel entrances at Shannan -29°12'28.0"N 91°44'43.7"E

These look like Hydel tunnel exits

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 26 Jul 2017 08:20

Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2017 08:25

Prasad wrote:Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.

Look at the river North of that and the fact that both tunnels exit into a gorge.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2017 08:41

Prasad wrote:
Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E.

This is a military site featured in my Tawang Video
https://youtu.be/azQlfT9Iv4s?t=258
Last edited by shiv on 26 Jul 2017 08:57, edited 1 time in total.

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2017 08:47

I must compliment you for taking the trouble and showing interest. It is important that more people do that and find what I have missed or new stuff.

Prasad wrote:Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E

In general I have found that the Chinese invariably have excellent tarred roads leading to military sites. These are dirt tracks and this looks more like a mine to me


Prasad wrote:Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.

These are solar panels. Note - there are no "roads" to service the barracks.

In general - military sites show
1. Excellent access roads
2. Walled compound with single protected gate
3. Barracks tend to be about 30 or more meters long and 10 or more meters wide
4. Parked military trucks is a clincher
5. Incorporate open areas for parking/assembly

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 26 Jul 2017 08:59

ABM is tough over a vast area like indo-china, but this could be a ASAT weapon. we have 8 sats flying polar orbits over the region and they have already demonstrated kinetic hits on their own sats. he who blinds the enemy from space has a advantage but this can only be done as the 1st move of a open war, not as a limited thing.

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 26 Jul 2017 12:14

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.

Look at the river North of that and the fact that both tunnels exit into a gorge.

Cant be sir. There is a road leading to a fork and then to the two tunnels. There is a gate and some buildings too. Def not hydel. Could be some depot. Weapons, ammo, fuel. There is a fuel depot in the open on the road between the two tunnels.
South tunnel
Image

North Tunnel - See the dirt track that leads to the main road?
Image

Both & Fuel depot - Positions relative to each other and the Shannan town itself to the right.
Image


shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:
Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E.

This is a military site featured in my Tawang Video
https://youtu.be/azQlfT9Iv4s?t=258

Yes sir. I remember seeing it. Bing maps pictures do not show such a massive presence. Its pretty deserted in its sat picture. I wonder what the dates on bing & google are for the pictures.

shiv wrote:I must compliment you for taking the trouble and showing interest. It is important that more people do that and find what I have missed or new stuff.

Lawl. My wife would lou to hear that somebody else is as nuts :P

Prasad wrote:Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E

In general I have found that the Chinese invariably have excellent tarred roads leading to military sites. These are dirt tracks and this looks more like a mine to me

These seem to be nearer to the top of that ridge. I thought tracked/wheeled short range SAM might be used there. Hide when not in use and then quickly dart out to position themselves to provide cover when things get hot. Deejay or somebody else who knows SRSAMS tactics might be able to tell if i'm dead wrong here :)

This is particularly interesting since I was looking for SAM sites in the first place. There is an HQ-9 system deployed that is visible next to the Lhasa airport a bit to the west of this place. That is a medium/long range SAM. I suppose the shorter ranged ones might be to the south of the town but that is a narrow valley with no east-west spread. Will check.

Prasad wrote:Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.

These are solar panels. Note - there are no "roads" to service the barracks.

In general - military sites show
1. Excellent access roads
2. Walled compound with single protected gate
3. Barracks tend to be about 30 or more meters long and 10 or more meters wide
4. Parked military trucks is a clincher
5. Incorporate open areas for parking/assembly

Yeah. :oops: Supposed to be elec engg. Explains the power lines and substation in the south. Nice ripe target for plinking, panels and substation both. Wonder what alternate electricity source they have.

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 26 Jul 2017 14:38

Prasad wrote:Cant be sir. There is a road leading to a fork and then to the two tunnels. There is a gate and some buildings too. Def not hydel. Could be some depot. Weapons, ammo, fuel. There is a fuel depot in the open on the road between the two tunnels.
South tunnel

Good catch. I got the perspective better by turning the image 180 deg and tilting. Those tunnel entrances are actually opening into a mountainside. This is definitely a military site


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