China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Jun 2018 13:54

Manish_P wrote:
Austin wrote:For the same reason we operated Vikrant and Viraat , Fleet Air defence and Organic ASW support beyond any Ship based or land based asset can provide.
I am aware of the roles of an AC. I meant against which opponent did they require such a capital intensive weapons platform.

You dont need an opponent to have such platform , The fact that your Fleet has much better mobile organic air cover and your ASW forces can fight much better with an AC is good enough reason to have that platform without having an opponent , Politically it gives you a better strategic space in your area of interest.

chola · Post by **chola** » 23 Jun 2018 16:21

Khalsa wrote:Interesting Image from the link above posted by the good admiral.

A new, colossal flattop that dwarfs the two existing carriers is seen in a photo released but later deleted by the state-owned shipbuilder CSIC.

Yes their Type 002 conventional 80K ton CATOBAR. Repeated rumors of modules are being put together in sheds since last year. So we should see them in a drydock in Shanghai later this year or next. This kind of “rumors” always pans out for chini watchers. They are not rumors but propaganda slow leaks.

The question is whether the catapults will be steam or EM. The chinis on the paki site say the bet is on EM but both are satellite photographed at their carrier training range. (As always chinis have parallel programs as backup.) Everything is planned out years in advance because of the long lead time needed to design and build these ships.

I guess the PLAN doesn’t have to go hat-in-hand to their damn MOD to beg for a new carrier project that will take around 8 years even in the best cases. For us, it would be over decade for sure. We won’t see Vishal in water until 2030 even if we started today but we are not starting today because MoD says no every time to the CATOBAR the Navy’s been asking for since 2012.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 25 Jun 2018 08:36

China takes surveillance to new heights with flock of robotic Doves, but do they come in peace?
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/ ... es-do-they

"replicate about 90 per cent of the movements of a real dove...they also produce very little noise, making them very hard to detect from the ground, and are so lifelike that actual birds often fly alongside them."

chola · Post by **chola** » 25 Jun 2018 09:16

So the PRC just elected their national girl band last night. Militaristically named the “Rocket Girls,” the top member actually received 185 MILLION votes.

The new style pink uniforms evolved a lot since the PLA girl groups of the Mao era.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2018 20:10

Helmet J-20

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jun 2018 09:17

The PLA obviously has Hollywood (and Bollywood) beat on propaganda flicks.

But I have to say this thing really does rock on a primal level. We need something like this from the IN!

https://theaviationist.com/2018/06/26/c ... -gun-away/

CHINA’S NEW VIDEO OF THEIR NAVAL AVIATION BLOWS “TOP GUN” AWAY
Jun 26 2018 - 0 Comments
By Tom Demerly

NEW VIDEO SCREAMS “ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO US” WITH AWESOME MUSIC, IMAGES.

China Peoples’ Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) and the Chinese micro-blogging, social media outlet Sina Weibo are rocking the web with a new motivational video of Chinese naval air and sea power that is a pure adrenaline fix. You could say it’s the Chinese “Top Gun”, but even better. The soundtrack blows Kenny Loggins away and the choreography beats the beach volleyball scene. The only thing missing is a Chinese equivalent of Kelly McGillis, but there is still plenty here to take your breath away.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 27 Jun 2018 09:59

^^^^ Are they good for fighting or only for nice videos? Somehow the whole setup looks too squeaky clean to be an actual fighting force. BTW wonder where they stole the music from...

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jun 2018 10:30

yensoy wrote:^^^^ Are they good for fighting or only for nice videos? Somehow the whole setup looks too squeaky clean to be an actual fighting force. BTW wonder where they stole the music from...

Probably only good for nice videos, salami slicing and inserting chini jurisdiction into the global commons. You don’t have to fight well if you don’t get into a fight.

The squeaky clean image holds up when up close too to impress the TFTAs.

Chini Type 054A ffg in Germany:

They keep der ship

velly

velly clean

for ze Germans.

Music is lifted from the internet.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Jun 2018 22:06

nice except the carrier part was very wet, emptyish decks and the su27 looks very sluggish on take off run vs a catapult shot

true power would be launching 4 aircraft within 1 minute using 15sec spaced shots from 4 catapults....thats a good solid CAP with 24-32 AAMs outbound.

nimitz class has the advantage of 4 deck edge lifts, each of which can bring up 2 hornets, with folded wings but refueled, armed and ready to go. and with 4 catapults there is redundancy and scale baked in to quickly rush fighters and a E2 onsite

cheen would pay a kings ransom to obtain the designs and secrets of this puppy

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jun 2018 22:13

But maybe PLAN needs to throw some dirt on their vessels to gain any real respect from TFTAs. LoL

From the aviationist.com article posted above.
https://theaviationist.com/2018/06/26/c ... qus_thread

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Avatar
InklingBooks
17 hours ago
Notice how clean and spotless the vests and helmets are. This Navy has yet to spend a lot of time on the deep blue sea. That matters. A naval novel I once read that was set during the Napoleonic wars had a French captain ask his British counterpart why the Brits won most engagements although the French ships were just as good. Your ships stay in port, the Brit replied. Ours stay at sea. Experience is what makes the difference.

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Avatar
Phaeton
18 hours ago
While video is nice...guys,really?Third starting position with THAT load?
First position clean?How bad are your engines?

Reply
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Avatar
Joe Bar
19 hours ago
That cannot be real. I do not see any corrosion on THEIR vessels.

Reply

chola · Post by **chola** » 28 Jun 2018 00:07

Singha wrote:nice except the carrier part was very wet, emptyish decks and the su27 looks very sluggish on take off run vs a catapult shot

Velly slow. Almost looks like it will belly flop into the ocean.

true power would be launching 4 aircraft within 1 minute using 15sec spaced shots from 4 catapults....thats a good solid CAP with 24-32 AAMs outbound.

nimitz class has the advantage of 4 deck edge lifts, each of which can bring up 2 hornets, with folded wings but refueled, armed and ready to go. and with 4 catapults there is redundancy and scale baked in to quickly rush fighters and a E2 onsite

cheen would pay a kings ransom to obtain the designs and secrets of this puppy

They will come closer with Type 003 and 004. But they will never match the Nimitz nor do I think they really need to for what they are doing. Carriers are not useful in war time against peer powers like Unkil and Bharat. These things are for shock and awe with the turd worlders around the Indo-Pacific. They are there for optics, extending chini presence in places they should not be and sinking some pirate dinghies for propaganda.

We have more than enough to annihilate a PRC CBG in wartme. But do we have enough during peacetime to keep them from establishing a presense in the IOR that might seem second to Unkil onlee? Especially if they have CATOBARs and we don’t.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2018 11:34

China will not give up 'any inch of territory' in the Pacific, Xi tells Mattis

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/27/asia ... index.html

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 28 Jun 2018 12:44

Coming soon to a border near you

---------

China Using Bird Drones To Spy On Border Muslims

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-06- ... er-muslims

How to detect?

Scientists are now scrambling to figure out how to identify small, low-altitude targets flying at low speed. One method may be holographic radar technology, which can produce 3D images of flying objects.

However, “there is no guarantee” that even a holographic radar – or any of the other new technologies in development – would be able to detect a drone with a wing-flapping pattern that was almost identical to those found in nature, and “especially if it was surrounded by other birds”, Li said.

“It would be a serious threat” to air defence systems, he said. -SCMP

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 28 Jun 2018 14:03

^
Misleading.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2018 17:11

‘We’re not colonialists & don’t cause chaos’: Xi tells Mattis China won’t concede an inch of land

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Jul 2018 15:12

spawns new reactor for PLA vessels
http://www.atimes.com/article/mysteriou ... a-vessels/

Researchers at Base 909 have reportedly developed and trialed a land-based, compact version of the Hualong-1 reactor containing 177 fuel rods. The new reactor was subsequently installed in the latest Type 095 assault submarine. The first completed vessel entered service last November, and several more are said to be under construction.

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Jul 2018 04:04

It looks like the chinis are preparing to float out two 13K tons DDGs together from their big-arsed dock in Dalian. The big red commie flags on them mean launch is near at hand.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 03 Jul 2018 13:41

chola wrote:It looks like the chinis are preparing to float out two 13K tons DDGs together from their big-arsed dock in Dalian. The big red commie flags on them mean launch is near at hand.

Done

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Jul 2018 16:09

Simultaneous launching from one dock is not something you see every day. Probably set to receive modules for another pair. I think it is no more than a year since satellite pictures identified two keels being laid down.

They’ve launched four of these cruisers since June of last year. Two yards spitting them out concurrently.

They launch with the entire superstructure in place. We launch much less finished vessels.

This was the lead P15B Visakhapatnam during launch:

Everything they do is more efficient. Multiple shipyards building one class, two ships in one dock, superstructures are completed in drydock, simultaneous launchings, simultaneous fitting out, etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2018 18:07

they are funding the PLAN this decade like they funded the HSR in last decade. something like 100b was used to build out the HSR network over 10 years per est.

a force designed to deter the USN will crush anyone else incl Rus/Ind/Fra/Uk in a conventional engagement.

i think we better worry about defending chennai harbour than dream of making forays into the SCS to stir things up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_raid
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... an_Islands

brits were forced to seize madagascar to prevent the ijn setting up a sub base there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... _Ironclad)

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Jul 2018 20:24

Singha wrote:they are funding the PLAN this decade like they funded the HSR in last decade. something like 100b was used to build out the HSR network over 10 years per est.

a force designed to deter the USN will crush anyone else incl Rus/Ind/Fra/Uk in a conventional engagement.

i think we better worry about defending chennai harbour than dream of making forays into the SCS to stir things up

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Ocean_raid

Basically this is Bismark’s Fleet Part Deux. The Germans made the mistake of challenging the Royal Navy which them into WWI.

Very good historical point on the IJN’s Indian Ocean raid! The Japanese gave the Anglos a sound beating. It was a wake up for us too. This, Singapore and the sinking of the Repulse and Prince of Wales gave us Bose and the realization that the Brits were not invincible.

Cheen, though, is not a warrior race like ze Teutonic Knights and the Samurais. This buildup is meant to do its main work in peacetime not the battlefield. They are meant to push chini jurisdiction into disputed territory and global commons by weight of numbers and persistent presence. Crews are barely trained and systems barely tested before they are pushed out there.

But the strategy is sound. Unless they are force into a fight, numbers and presence is all that is needed to create fait accompli. And as their numbers increase, the chance of war actually lessens as the risks rises for anyone willing to challenge. Most will simply see it as a foregone conclusion. They have perfected the (non)war strategy for SRE types against warrior TFTAs.

Them attacking Chennai is unlikely and in a way even preferable because it will bring us into a kinetic conflict where their numbers can be attrited! But it will never happen if left to the chinis.

We can hope they get into a fight with the USN.

Or we can start one in IOR ourselves while we still hold the advantage locally. But the good guys need to take some hits as the “bad guys” because the PRC will not fight unless forced to.

nam · Post by **nam** » 03 Jul 2018 21:05

It is not possible to defeat a shipbuilding powerhouse in tactical fights. You have go all out and destroy their ship building capabilities.

Japan gave a deadly blow to USN in pearl harbor. What happened? US could build ships faster then they could be sunk!

The only way out is what the chinis are doing. Build yourself as a ship building powerhouse. We need to churn ssn and surface combat at much faster rates.
We need to be a manufacturing powerhouse. Everything else is hot air.

It is a different story that we never learn.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2018 23:27

I checked addu atoll in maldives

Southern tip of the island chain
Protected in three sides by atolls
Forms a nice 20km triangular area for anchorage and hiding

Gan airport is nearby

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Jul 2018 23:39

A visit to gan island in addu atoll

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-maga ... y-base-gan

British bombers and lrmp must have been there

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Jul 2018 00:29

Singha wrote:A visit to gan island in addu atoll

http://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-maga ... y-base-gan

British bombers and lrmp must have been there

LoL. Chini vacationing spot article from the South China Post.

Like your very apt comment on their funding of their navy like their HSR program, there is always a commercial side to everything with Cheen. They are a mercantile power first and foremost. Even their MIC puts the emphasis on Industry.

Building their navy is building industrial capacity and jobs. Expanding footprint in tourist spots like Maldives increases capacity and jobs in their airlines, their infrastructure companies and, as a side effect of having so many people and companies overseas, their Navy which in turn builds out capacity for their shipbuilding industry. All this is really dependent on money from trade otherwise “capacity” becomes “overcapacity” which can drain an industrial empire.

You can disrupt trade with a war. It could be the “trade” war that Unkil is trying right now or a more traditional kinetic one which closes down trade routes.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 04 Jul 2018 03:08

^^+1 chola ji adding to your point, having capacity to build is only half the problem. The other half is sustenance of that. This huge capability comes at a cost and we have seen empires topple by unsustainable military expansions.
If military expansion is feeding your country's prosperity then you are already on a slippery slope and stopping is difficult.
I say we cheer for every ship they build, every drop of oil they import to float the ships and every gram of mineral they source from their natural reserves.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 04 Jul 2018 11:37

nam wrote: The only way out is what the chinis are doing. Build yourself as a ship building powerhouse. We need to churn ssn and surface combat at much faster rates.
We need to be a manufacturing powerhouse. Everything else is hot air.

US itself can't keep up.

And that's even with plans to build up to 3 nuclear powered attack submarines a year - which cost as much as a mid sized aircraft carrier.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Jul 2018 12:25

As with ships so go strategic aircraft.

Satellite from June 12th of factory grounds at Xian. Piles of Y-20s and H-6Ks.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Jul 2018 22:42

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomac ... rs-replace
China is working on a new fighter jet for aircraft carriers to replace its J-15s

Experts say the task has become more pressing after a series of mechanical failures and crashes, as Beijing pursues global navy ambitions
[quote]The need to develop a new fighter jet has become more pressing after a series of “unpardonable mechanical failures” that have killed one top PLA pilot and injured another.

Two sources close to the military told the Post there had been at least four crashes involving the J-15, although only two of them have been reported by state media.

“The J-15 is a problematic aircraft – its unstable flight control system was the key factor behind the two fatal accidents two years ago,” one of the sources said.[/quote]

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Jul 2018 22:53

The mig29k virus reached sinic shores

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2018 23:01

I am expecting a navalised J-20 or J-31 more of the latter , its got every thing to be a good naval fighter

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Jul 2018 23:03

Just a clarification on my last post: I wanted to attach a J-15 image to the above post. Did a google search. Located the 1st image that fit my size criteria and slapped it here.

I don't even know if that image is a J-15 or a MIG29K or something else. Don't go by the image.

chola · Post by **chola** » 04 Jul 2018 23:24

Singha wrote:The mig29k virus reached sinic shores

The russkie virus to be more precise. In this case, thank goodness the chinis drink from the same source.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2018 23:27

J-31 is the logical design for aircraft carrier , J-20 would be too heavy to land and would require massive strengthening of its landing gear too heavy even for 100 thousand ton flat top. They might need some changes in design like adding a canard to improve its low landing speed.

nam · Post by **nam** » 05 Jul 2018 00:18

Neshant wrote:
nam wrote: The only way out is what the chinis are doing. Build yourself as a ship building powerhouse. We need to churn ssn and surface combat at much faster rates.
We need to be a manufacturing powerhouse. Everything else is hot air.
US itself can't keep up.

And that's even with plans to build up to 3 nuclear powered attack submarines a year - which cost as much as a mid sized aircraft carrier.

US can scale up when they need to. They have a history of doing it.

What is our history in mass production?

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Jul 2018 07:11

Austin wrote:J-31 is the logical design for aircraft carrier , J-20 would be too heavy to land and would require massive strengthening of its landing gear too heavy even for 100 thousand ton flat top. They might need some changes in design like adding a canard to improve its low landing speed.

Judging by size comparison in pictures with J-16, the J-20 is actually the same size as the Flanker so would not necessarily be heavier than the J-15. Also, the J-31 (or FC-31 as some watchers insist because it is not a PLA sanctioned plane) is considered an export product using the same RD-33/93-class engine as the JF-17 so many are saying this plane targets the Paki market more so than the PLAN. The PLANAF might still want heavy-weight fighters to follow the J-15 judging by trends.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Jul 2018 10:46

Singha wrote:The mig29k virus reached sinic shores

And now it is clear why the Russians abandoned the SU-33 in favour of the Mig 29K. Mig 29K has its share of problems but the Su-33/J-15 is even worse.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 05 Jul 2018 12:04

Austin wrote:I am expecting a navalised J-20 or J-31 more of the latter , its got every thing to be a good naval fighter

Everything except stealth and maneuverability that is...

Their stealth claims are bogus.

Sticking an angled airframe over of a 3rd generation J8-II does not turn it into a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2018 12:19

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:J-31 is the logical design for aircraft carrier , J-20 would be too heavy to land and would require massive strengthening of its landing gear too heavy even for 100 thousand ton flat top. They might need some changes in design like adding a canard to improve its low landing speed.
Judging by size comparison in pictures with J-16, the J-20 is actually the same size as the Flanker so would not necessarily be heavier than the J-15. Also, the J-31 (or FC-31 as some watchers insist because it is not a PLA sanctioned plane) is considered an export product using the same RD-33/93-class engine as the JF-17 so many are saying this plane targets the Paki market more so than the PLAN. The PLANAF might still want heavy-weight fighters to follow the J-15 judging by trends.

The J-20 is more in Mig-31 class and not flanker , it is more around 42-45T MTOW class and to land that beast even on a USN class CBG would be a challange , J-31 is more in Rafale class and apt for carrier role.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2018 12:20

Neshant wrote:
Austin wrote:I am expecting a navalised J-20 or J-31 more of the latter , its got every thing to be a good naval fighter
Everything except stealth and maneuverability that is...

Their stealth claims are bogus.

Sticking an angled airframe over of a 3rd generation J8-II does not turn it into a 5th gen stealth aircraft.

How can we do such eye balling of stealth and come to conclusion , the design has every thing done to reduce RCS so LO wise it should be better than any thing that PLAN flies from the deck.