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China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Viv S
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Viv S » 14 Feb 2018 14:58

Singha wrote:is the fuel economy of high bypass turbofan due to a smallish hot section but the air thats being bypassed at speed is also a big amt due to compressors acting like propellers of a turboprop engine? so this "free" air also generates plenty of fwd motion apart from the hot section spewing out exhaust

The major portion of the thrust generated in a high bypass turbofan engine comes from the fan (which is driven by a shaft & gearbox from the turbine). The main function of the turbine is to drive the ducted fan similar to how a marine gas turbine drives the propellers of a ship.

The fan's not to be confused with the compressor though its does assist with compression.

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2018 15:04

so the fan being inside the cowl and having a lot of curvy cool looking blades seems to be only difference with a 'proper' turboprop and its propeller blades ?

I would imagine the turboprop has less complex/poweful compressor and hot section?

interesting to note the high and low pressure shafts in concentric manner - cool trick that

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2018 15:12

Image

I guess this is going to become common soon::

In conventional turbofans the fan tips exceed the speed of sound causing a characteristic drone, requiring sound deadening. Geared turbofans operate the fan at sufficiently low rotational speed to avoid supersonic tip speeds

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 14 Feb 2018 19:24

Viv S wrote:The major portion of the thrust generated in a high bypass turbofan engine comes from the fan (which is driven by a shaft & gearbox from the turbine). The main function of the turbine is to drive the ducted fan similar to how a marine gas turbine drives the propellers of a ship.

Please set my qibla right if you believe I am wrong, but up until very recently the low pressure turbine and the bypass fan were placed on the very same spool so they spin at the same speed - with no reduction gearbox. That is what the image you posted also shows. This inevitably slowed the low pressure compressor to lesser speeds to prevent the bypass fan blade tips from going supersonic. Reduction gearboxes are used (so far) only for turboprops.

Only now Pratt and Whitney have come up with a geared turbofan that allows the low pressure turbine to spin faster than the bypass fan by putting a coaxial gear (a planetary gear I think) in between.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geared_turbofan
Last edited by shiv on 14 Feb 2018 19:30, edited 2 times in total.

shiv
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 14 Feb 2018 19:25

Singha wrote:so the fan being inside the cowl and having a lot of curvy cool looking blades seems to be only difference with a 'proper' turboprop and its propeller blades ?

No. Up until now only props had gearboxes. Turbofans run at the same speed as the low pressure compressor

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby neerajb » 15 Feb 2018 10:18

Singhaji, high bypass turbofans efficiency stems from the way they generate thrust and their operating envelope. In commercial high bypass engines, 80% of thrust is generated by fan. They have more stages in LP turbines than military leaky turbojets (which nowdays have single stage for both LP and HP turbines), as the idea is to extract most of the energy for fan. Turbo props take it even further where thrust generated by core is almost negligible as compared to props.

The rate of change of momentum with time is what gives thrust which has two components mass (flow rate) and velocity (exhaust gases). Turboprops and turbofans move a large mass of air and add small velocity component to it to generate thrust. Turbojets take small mass and accelerate it to high velocities.

Thrust is dependent on aircraft velocity as well. As the aircraft forward speed increases, the relative speed of exhaust gases decreases and so does thrust.

For slow aircrafts, turboprops are ideal as the slow top speed makes the loss of thrust less and the engine is very efficient ( relatively colder exhaust, most energy drawn from it).

Civil liners fall somewhere in between. High subsonic speeds mean turboprop is ruled out and turbojet is thirsty. So it uses turbofans.

Supersonic aircrafts have no choice. At supersonic speeds, high exhaust velocity is needed to generate any form of thrust, hence turbojets.

Engine will provide drag instead of thrust if exhaust velocity falls below aircraft speed! This is quite similar to how basebleed shells have longer ranges due to reduced drag.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2018 10:32

Nice explanation neerajb Thanks

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Feb 2018 11:00

Then why do modern Jet fighters use Turbo fans and not Turbo jet Engines?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 15 Feb 2018 12:42

Aditya_V wrote:Then why do modern Jet fighters use Turbo fans and not Turbo jet Engines?

AFAIK it is a compromise with fighters typically having low bypass turbofans for their fuel efficiency while the lack of inertia of a huge (high bypass) fan makes the engine more responsive to sudden acceleration while allowing the engine to be compact.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 15 Feb 2018 22:15

courtesy Shatrujeet.
they are supposedly testing a project Ara type UAV with changeable wings. looks like sub-scale model for now.

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 16 Feb 2018 08:19

Chinese drone unmanned aircraft CH-4V in the Iraqi army aviation



More Pics of CH-4 https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3095332.html

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Gagan » 17 Feb 2018 08:25

China airbase expansion in Tibet, images posted by user Rajfortyseven on Twitter:
Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 17 Feb 2018 14:37

My new video
An analysis of the railway link between China and Tibet
https://youtu.be/4uEO-fWyv48

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 20 Feb 2018 20:22

Both hot and cold launches from the chini universal VLS. The other pre-emininent UVLS, the Mk41 and derivatives, is hot launch onlee.

Image

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 20 Feb 2018 20:39

chola wrote:Both hot and cold launches from the chini universal VLS. The other pre-emininent UVLS, the Mk41 and derivatives, is hot launch onlee.


There is only one cold-launched weapon that is likely to be a candidate for the MK41 for the foreseeable future (CAMM) and it is compatible with the MK41. Years down the road, a potential common ESSM and SM2 replacement could be cold launched but that is well over a decade out even as an R&D program.

Image

MBDA and Lockheed Martin demonstrated the first launch of a Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) from Lockheed Martin’s MK 41 Vertical Launching System (VLS) launcher using the host variant of the Extensible Launching System (ExLS).

This is the first test by MBDA and Lockheed Martin since the May 2013 announcement of cooperation between the two companies to offer MBDA missile systems for use with the MK 41 and ExLS family of launchers. The test used MBDA’s soft vertical launch technology to eject the CAMM from its canister and position the missile for main motor ignition. The trial is the first in a series to demonstrate that the CAMM can be installed using ExLS in vessels that use the MK 41 launcher or on the 3-cell stand-alone ExLS CAMM launcher.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/press-relea ... sing-exls/


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Khalsa » 21 Feb 2018 14:26


Rakesh
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Feb 2018 01:21

'China wanted to split India, Bhutan through Doklam'
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=536563

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 22 Feb 2018 10:10

Here’s a less commonly discussed subject in our chini mil thread.

Chini AAMs:
Image

A description of the mijjiles in the following (of note is the PL-XX at 400KM range):
https://warontherocks.com/2018/02/not-fathers-plaaf-chinas-push-develop-domestic-air-air-missiles/

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Zynda » 22 Feb 2018 10:54

One of their indigenous IR missile is a copy of Israeli Python-3 I think. The later versions i.e. PL-10 may be an evolution of that.

Early versions of PL-12 carried the same Russian AGAT active radar seeker that initially equipped our Astra BVR missile as well. Also note the comparable ranges (70 Kms for PL-12 vs 80 Kms for Astra Mk.1). Similar to our Mk.2, their evolution of BVR missiles aim around 150 Km range.

What are the chances that Chinese secretly have bought the design for KS-172 or whatever 300+ Kms AWACS killer missile that Russia & India were jointly supposed to work on, & have uped the specs to a 400 Km missile?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 22 Feb 2018 19:09

What are the chances that Chinese secretly have bought the design for KS-172 or whatever 300+ Kms AWACS killer missile that Russia & India were jointly supposed to work on, & have uped the specs to a 400 Km missile?


I would say the chances are nearly 100% after the Su-35 sale.

I see no upper limit for Cheen on what the Russkies are willing to sell. Any belief that somehow the Russians will sell their “best” to us onlee is pretty much put to rest by this pissant little order of 24 Su-35s to the PRC.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 22 Feb 2018 20:21

Looks like their CopyHawk is coming online soon — after three decades of copying the Blackhawk they bought in the 1980s. This is a true RE’ed helo unlike the Dauphin Z-9 and Super Frelon Z-8 copies which are known ToT.

New pictures just out on the chini watchers sites: first two are of the prototypes (note different noses in picture one), the last is supposedly of a machine with an operational unit.

Image

Image

Image


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby SaiK » 23 Feb 2018 21:27

The People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) has boosted their high altitude capacities along their southwestern borders, sending more top-of-the-line jet fighters to parts of China that border rival state India.

https://sputniknews.com/asia/2018022210 ... an-border/

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Feb 2018 12:11

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/ ... ree-hours/
China unveils plans for hypersonic jet that can fly anywhere in the world in three hours

Supersonic passenger travel is the aim of a number of innovators CREDIT: GETTY

Hugh Morris, travel news editor
23 FEBRUARY 2018 • 5:37PM
A new hypersonic aircraft could ferry passengers anywhere in the world in under three hours.

Travelling at up to 3,800 miles an hour, more than six times the speed of a typical commercial jet and twice as fast as a supersonic aircraft, it has been developed for the Chinese military, but could be used for passengers.

Researchers from the Chinese Academy of Sciences say they have tested a scaled-down model of the hypersonic jet in a wind tunnel, where it reached a top speed of 5,343mph.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2018 12:16

I consider the blackhawk to be overall a inferior design to the Mi8/17 lineage. the back ramp is a major thing to wheel pallets and small trolleys in and out....even in casevac kind of role. as a cargo hauler its outclassed by many. a 81mm mortar or 105mm IFG with crew and some ammo can be hauled in a Mi17 easily .. fully assembled and ready to fire.

the Dhruv carries fractionally less number of people....for a smaller and cheaper footprint with better high alt specs.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 24 Feb 2018 14:00

Even though Z-9 is a copy of black hawk they seem to do very good job with reverse engineering , not many country can claim to fame when it comes to reverse engineering prominent among them are Iran and China both countries have been under decades of military sanctions

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ashish raval » 24 Feb 2018 14:23

Austin wrote:Even though Z-9 is a copy of black hawk they seem to do very good job with reverse engineering , not many country can claim to fame when it comes to reverse engineering prominent among them are Iran and China both countries have been under decades of military sanctions

Reverse engineering is not a tough job. Believe me :). I could reverse engineer a design of a pump in a day (just the design) just by using engineering tools, CATIA, followed by structural analysis in NASTRAN and FLUENT for CFD during undergraduate days 20 years back. It is not the box which matters, it is under the hood, algorithms and war fighting tactics and experience that matters. Else it is just terracotta army as far as I can see. Copycats do not command respect anywhere in the world. This is why Chinese are always looking for recognition which is not forthcoming and hence they coerce it on those whom they think they can bully to get that respect. Like it is said Afghan with 40 years of war fighting experience carrying a AK-47 is deadlier than a commando with simulated training and carrying Marcos or rocket launchers.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 24 Feb 2018 15:42

Reverse engineering of airframes aside, plane props and heli blades aren't low tech stuff no? Where did they get tech for manufacturing those blades?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Feb 2018 18:23

China is v.unlikely to get the latest Ru tech as the Russians know that the Chinese will reverse engineer it.The SU-35 is being offered only because the SU-57 is just around the corner.Neither will it come with Ru std. eqpt.Already possessing Flanker reverse- engineered tech, an SU-35 sale of export std. aircraft isn' t a great risk.Why we were also given first peck at the SU-57.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ashish raval » 24 Feb 2018 18:28

Prasad wrote:Reverse engineering of airframes aside, plane props and heli blades aren't low tech stuff no? Where did they get tech for manufacturing those blades?

No they are not this is where quality will prevail in long run everything else is very well documented and studied over last century. E.g. Patek Phillipe from Switzerland vs. it's copy from China. Both looks same to micron from outside but one lasts for 500 years while other will be junk in 5 years.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 24 Feb 2018 18:34

China is the second largest defense spender in the world, and its budgets is growing fast. Russia is its main foreign supplier and as such the Chinese market is the largest market the Russian defense equipment suppliers will have access to. Unlike the SU days where the Russian industry was developing multiple new fighter aircraft, the Su-57 is currently the only completely new clean sheet program in advanced development. Unless the Russians take the decision to completely wall off their largest market from their only new fighter project, expect talks of a sale or a potential sale to the Chinese happening within the next decade. This will likely begin to happen once the Russian Air Force has put a squadron or two in service which will be in the early to mid 2020s much like it has happened with the Su-35, and S-400 sales. The timelines and the level of interest from the Chinese will likely be a good indicator of how confident they are with the J-20.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 24 Feb 2018 18:46

Will they even need to buy a token squadron to get access to whatever tech they need? Given that it doesn't look like russia will fund an UAV program or multiple stealth programs which china is doing.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 24 Feb 2018 19:53

everything on the PAKFA would be on the table for dragon lords to pick and buy. Rus is even more needy now than when they sold us the Flanker....5th gen techs are more costly and other rearmament programs like SSN, SSBN, new ICBMs (yars, rubezh,sarmat),kalibr, zircon, tu160mk2 take priority
very few numbers of the Su35 have been built...around 68....with 30-50ish on order. barely enough to cover retirements of old Su27 and Mig29 units.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Feb 2018 21:38

Aside from the Z-20 CopyHawk, these are the last systems to be fully copied:

The MiG-21/Tumansky R-25
Image

The F-5/J85
Image

The technology threshold for RE seems to be at this level of turbojet-powered light fighter.

The Iranians had the F-14 and the F100 turbofan for four decades but could not RE them. The chinis (and Russians) most likely had access to them as well. The Tomcat/F100 would be the greatest prize for a RE project. So far no copy of the Tomcat or F100 exists.

The chini Flanker clones are ToT with the J-11B, J-11BS, J-15 and J-16 coming off the same plant and lines established for the Su-27SK.

Past the 1970s threshold of the Amreeki Teens and the Russki Su-27/MiG-29 and the turbofans, RE is not feasible in my opinion.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Feb 2018 21:44

That MiG-21 clone looks like a scale model!

chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Feb 2018 21:57

Singha wrote:I consider the blackhawk to be overall a inferior design to the Mi8/17 lineage. the back ramp is a major thing to wheel pallets and small trolleys in and out


I agree with that statement too. But the chinis fly very large numbers of Mi-8/17 and also have the Z-8/18 with the rear ramps. So they definitely like the layout of the Mi-8/17 series.

Yet they are still heavily using their S-70-Cs along side new Mi-17s and have now a clone in the Z-20 so there must be some advantages to the side-door configuration.
Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 26 Feb 2018 23:39

This was posted on one of the chini mil watchers forums — SDF.

Supposedly this came from official chini sources.

It states that the PRC attempted to clone the Blackhawk since the 1980s but failed repeatedly. What is implied is that the Z-20 clone, despite the outward looks, is different internally and most probably inferior to the 1970s UH-60.

If the PRC can’t get a copy of the Blackhawk after more than three decades then RE is not a viable path post 1970s technology.

ToT is necessary but the key is negotiating the proper contract.

China Military Online
Editor
Yao Jianing
Time
2018-02-24


New online photos of China's Z-20 10-ton utility helicopter have sparked heated discussion on the Internet. Let’s take a look at the new helicopter.

The Z-20 is the informal name of a medium-lift (9-10 tons) utility helicopter (similar to the Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawk) developed independently by China.

...

In recent years, a large number of Z-10, Z-19 and other armed helicopters have joined the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA), making up for China's lack of reconnaissance and attack helicopters.

However, China has been lacking a 10-ton general tactical helicopter to carry out assault transport, airlift and logistic support tasks.
...
Short-range transport and assault operations still need a general helicopter like the Z-20.

China acquired 24 US Black Hawk helicopters in the 1980s. These helicopters helped China fully understand the leading aviation technology of the US. The Black Hawk’s flight performance, material technology and reliability were much higher than those of China’s homegrown helicopters at that time.

In the 1980s, it was said that the Black Hawk was the only helicopter in China that could be used in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. The Black Hawk played a huge role in many remote areas of China. As late as the 2008 Wenchuan earthquake, eighteen UH-60 Black Hawks were dispatched to conduct rescue operations, although these helicopters had been in high-load service for many years.

China once considered copying the Black Hawk when it was first introduced to China. Although the model was only the civil export model, the technology was something beyond China’s reach at that time. For example, the manufacturing process of large-size titanium parts used in Black Hawk couldn’t be found in Chine even in the 1990s.

Although the Black Hawk was a product of the 1970s, China was not able to come up with a similar product even in the early 21st century. As it is with most models, the learning process from the Black Hawk was a very difficult process requiring countless accumulation in materials, workmanship, processing and research and development, as well as 20 years of running-in and an experienced team.

The arduous course of the development of the Chinese helicopter industry has actually been a painful process that countries with less developed aviation industries must go through.

The Z-20 medium-lift utility helicopter is said to be in the late stage of development. It is expected that in the near future, the final design work of the Z-20 will be completed and the helicopter will soon join the PLA Army and Navy service.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby VinodTK » 26 Feb 2018 23:58

Preparing for a Rematch at the Top of the World

Nice satelit pictures of Indian (Siliguri & Hasimara) and Chinese (Shigatse Peace and Lhasa Gonggar),airbases

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 27 Feb 2018 10:45

Chini product promos from AVIC. Pounding soundtrack, Hollywood-style editing.

I hate to say it, they sell their chit a lot better than us (though ADA’s Tejas videos are fairly good.) Their propaganda kicks our propaganda’s arse.







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