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China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
pankajs
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 22 Mar 2018 23:13

^
You beat me to it .... Yawn on Yuan.

BTW, They don't dare cross the Malacca strait submerged and they don't stand a chance crossing it surfaced during war ... but what has logic got to do with any of this stuff. Aren't we just supposed to do some dhoti shiver and get on with cursing GOI.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 09:34

https://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.c ... -manifest/

How will Chinese use of force in Doklam manifest?
Lt General H S Panag


In competitive conflict among nations, when faced with the threat of use of force by an adversary and if you set out to confront him and call his bluff, Plan A is generally based on the premise that the adversary will not actually use force due to political, economic and military compulsions. However, Plan B is also prepared to actually deal with the threat if it manifests itself. The handling of the two month long standoff in Doklam and recurring Chinese incursions elsewhere are still based on Plan A.

This, of course, is based on post 1962 War and 1967 Nathu La experience, notably the standoffs at Sumdrong Chu 1986-87, Depsang 2013 and Chumar 2014. Thus, on the ground, we see Indian and Chinese soldiers are physically confronting each other below Doka La with neither side using “force” except for the “jostling” in the initial stages. There is no let-up in Chinese jingoistic rhetoric and threats. Diplomacy does not seem to have made much headway. The mood in Delhi is “jung nahin hogi”. Except for the Indian Army moving for the annual summer “operational alert” there are no reports of any large scale mobilisation by either side. Is the current standoff going the way of the previous prolonged “peaceful” standoffs?

In this backdrop, let us look at Plan B on both sides. Before this, an obvious point must be made. Nations armed with nuclear weapons do not, and I dare say, cannot fight a full scale conventional war that causes major loss of territory, large scale casualties and destruction of economic infrastructure. The probability of even a limited war in multiple sectors along the LAC is relatively low. The probability of a limited war in the area of confrontation is much higher. The moot question is what form will it take?

The Indian Army’s Plan B is that all along the LAC and particularly in Sikkim, we hold dominating heights in high altitude terrain. Our defences are “hardened” and are backed by adequate fire power, including missiles carrying Precision Guided Munitions (PGM). We have adequate reserve for counter attack and we also have tactical counter offensive capability in each theatre. Along the LAC and in Tibet the IAF has an edge. It can carry out a strategic air campaign to target the PLA centres of gravity in Tibet, namely, command and control centres, military infrastructure and troop concentrations. Indian Navy is capable of strategic interdiction of sea lanes through the Indian Ocean. We also have the option of preempting the PLA with an operational level preemptive offensive, before it mobilises in Ladakh, Chumbi Valley and North Sikkim.

In a nutshell, we are looking to fight a low end third generation war to give the PLA a bloody nose. My take is that if the limited war whether in multiple sectors or in the Sikkim Sector, takes this form, we will stalemate the Chinese which is defeat for them.

The question that arises is why would China initiate a war where its defeat is ordained? Or does it have a more imaginative Plan B that teaches India a lesson? The PLA has adopted and adapted to the Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA) for the last two decades, particularly in the field of cyber warfare and PGM technology. It is now only second to the USA in high-end military technology. My assessment is that the Chinese will neutralise our strategy by not getting involved in “close infantry combat” over unfavourable terrain. If at all it chooses to use force, its strategy will be based on technological warfare with overwhelming use of PGM and cyber warfare. It will restrict its initial offensive to the Doklam and Sikkim Sector, but would be prepared for escalation to other sectors.

Such an attack will come in the winter, when conventional ground operations are severely restricted. PLA will carry out minimal mobilisation to cater to the unlikely tactical offensive by India in the winter. A massive PGM attack will be launched on our troops at Doklam and Doka La using cruise missiles and artillery after pulling out its own troops to safety.

Simultaneously, a massive cyber attack will be launched to neutralize our command and control systems and our fire power means. The strike will be with a declared limited aim of evicting us from Doklam. Depending upon our strategic and operational response, the PLA will escalate with similar attacks on more defensive positions in Sikkim and other sectors.

Are we prepared for such an attack? Are our defences sufficiently “hardened” and “tunnelled” to withstand a massive PGM attack? What is our progress in implementing the RMA? Do we have missile interception means? Are we trained and prepared for a winter offensive to make territorial gains? Do we have adequate counter attack capabilities using cyber warfare and PGMs?

I have no doubts that our Armed Forces have catered for such an eventuality. What measures, we can and should take will be discussed in the next column.

The writer is former Army commander, Northern and Central command

This is part 1 of the series

DISCLAIMER : Views expressed above are the author's own.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 23 Mar 2018 13:42

Philip wrote:https://www.newstimes.com/technology/bu ... 768502.php

China's growing submarine force is 'armed to the teeth' — and the rest of the Pacific is racing to keep up[/b]


As per Fabey-saar, apparently rest of the world submarines are armed only till the teats. Only chinese are armed to the teeth.

Don't hear, any news about that railgun that looks like the BAe one or those tiny naval UCAVs being tested off tiny landing decks in "INS China". They are already at a stage where we should not under estimate them but I am not shaking enough without more grainy pics

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby adityadange » 23 Mar 2018 14:51

shiv wrote:I hope those diesel electric subs can sail 8000 km under the sea - so they can surface off Vishakapatnam. They need to be careful not to scrape their bottoms in Malacca strait with a 25 meter depth..

Agree with your point. but just to nitpick, google map distance calculator displays the distance from hainan, where there is major submarine base to vishakhapattanam is in the range of 5500km. 8k+ range is possible if one starts to sail from Tianjin

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 14:56

adityadange wrote:
shiv wrote:I hope those diesel electric subs can sail 8000 km under the sea - so they can surface off Vishakapatnam. They need to be careful not to scrape their bottoms in Malacca strait with a 25 meter depth..

Agree with your point. but just to nitpick, google map distance calculator displays the distance from hainan, where there is major submarine base to vishakhapattanam is in the range of 5500km. 8k+ range is possible if one starts to sail from Tianjin

Sure.

But submarines are supposed to be stealthy. For the distance to be 5000km they have to sail via Malacca - where they cannot submerge because it is too shallow. They will be seen out in the open and announce themselves to every navy in the universe. If they want to sail in stealthily (submerged) then they have to go via the strait of Lombok or Ombai straits from where the distance is 8000 km.

Here is an explanatory video if you have not already seen it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRBhZ2ATWqI

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby adityadange » 23 Mar 2018 15:26

shiv wrote:Sure.

But submarines are supposed to be stealthy. For the distance to be 5000km they have to sail via Malacca - where they cannot submerge because it is too shallow. They will be seen out in the open and announce themselves to every navy in the universe. If they want to sail in stealthily (submerged) then they have to go via the strait of Lombok or Ombai straits from where the distance is 8000 km.

Here is an explanatory video if you have not already seen it..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRBhZ2ATWqI


Yes right. Your earlier post contained 8k km and malacca both. That combinely sort of confused me.
Btw, I had seen your video some days back. Nice <Thumbs up>

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 19:04

Posting some useful links (for future ref): WW2 US weights of inftry divn - 45000 tons - 14000 men (1 month stocks)
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/977162311654809600

Tibet - most freight is by road
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/977165154851766272

Here is a link that says "First Freight train" to Lhasa - 2016 : 8 containers and 14 carriages. Pretty light.
http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1207/c90000-9151981.html

Lhasa handles 10,000 tons incoming freight/day - about 4 trains?
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/977174991237103616

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 19:08

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1043839.shtml
It takes about 100 hours to move a shipment to Xigaze from Guangzhou, capital of South China's Guangdong Province. Guangzhou is about 4,500 kilometers away from Xigaze.

Once at Xigaze, cargo needs to be loaded onto trucks to be transported to the Gyirong port, the largest business land port connecting the region with Nepal, said Yao Yanfeng, general secretary of Tibet Tianzhi Co, which operates this route.

Yao pointed out that it usually takes 40 days by sea to transport cargo from Guangzhou to India, and then Nepal.


Sometimes, freight trains arriving in Lhasa have to wait for hours before they can switch to the Lhasa-Xigaze line, so it actually takes less time to unload the goods and transfer them to trucks, workers from the trading company told the Global Times on Saturday.

After a train that arrived on the Guangdong-Tibet-Central South Asia route had been unloaded on Friday, Zha Mu, who works for another Lhasa-based logistics company, was supervising workers on one side of the Lhasa station's loading platform as they loaded goods onto a truck.

"It's about 20 tons of cargo, including daily necessities and electronics from Guangzhou. The truck can leave as soon as the workers finish loading," he said.

Zha noted that the Lhasa-Xigaze freight train can only transport containers, and it can take hours for cargo like clothing to be loaded onto a train container.

The other reason some trains stop at Lhasa is the city's stable of logistics firms, said Zhang, head of the station.

"For example, many trucks are waiting outside this station to be loaded. Then they can drive off to any place in Tibet," he noted. "It's hard to say if Xigaze has the same level of services."

At the station, an employee surnamed Zhao from another trading company also stood reviewing a list of the products on the Lhasa station's loading platform. "I will ship these products to Gyirong by truck," he said.

He noted that it takes days longer to send the goods via the Guangzhou-Xigaze rail route and then to Gyirong by road.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 23 Mar 2018 19:34

It takes about 100 hours to move a shipment to Xigaze from Guangzhou, capital of South China's Guangdong Province. Guangzhou is about 4,500 kilometers away from Xigaze.

Once at Xigaze, cargo needs to be loaded onto trucks to be transported to the Gyirong port, the largest business land port connecting the region with Nepal, said Yao Yanfeng, general secretary of Tibet Tianzhi Co, which operates this route.

Yao pointed out that it usually takes 40 days by sea to transport cargo from Guangzhou to India, and then Nepal.



This thing is so hilarious. Right below Nepal is UP, one of the most densely populated region of the world. Cheap labor, 1/100th the travel time. Any product the Chinese can "export" to Nepal through this route, can be undercut from UP!

And the road/train link to Tibet from Nepal was bragged about something of a break through. Neither Nepal has the market, nor will be cheap to import from China. Another form of CPEC.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Mar 2018 20:09

Three posts from Amreeki naval proceedings forum that illustrate civil-mil implications and that Trump’s trade war is not about trade deficit but blocking Cheen’s tech reach.

The US looks at and investigates things at a whole other level than SDREs.

First is face recognition in space (not in front of cellphone or computer), second is voice recognition in space and third is control of space to bring facial and voice recognition scanners into action.

The music video is a description of DJI’s precision drone with movie quality imaging and sound.


1) https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/554075/

China is rife with face-scanning technology worthy of Black Mirror. Don’t even think about jaywalking in Jinan, the capital of Shandong province. Last year, traffic-management authorities there started using facial recognition to crack down. When a camera mounted above one of 50 of the city’s busiest intersections detects a jaywalker, it snaps several photos and records a video of the violation. The photos appear on an overhead screen so the offender can see that he or she has been busted, then are cross-checked with the images in a regional police database. Within 20 minutes, snippets of the perp’s ID number and home address are displayed on the crosswalk screen.


2)
https://qz.com/1232988/after-faces-china-is-moving-quickly-to-identify-people-by-their-voices/amp/

In China, officials and companies have deployed facial-recognition technology to a degree uncommon elsewhere, both commercially and—more controversially—for widespread surveillance. Now it’s the turn of voice recognition.

The government of the southwestern Guizhou province, Tsinghua University, and Beijing-based d-Ear Technologies announced they are collaborating on a pilot project that will link unique voice features to people’s national ID information and create, maintain, and secure a database of “voiceprints.”


3)

Not hard to see where this will take us on the battlefield. Autonomous hunter-killer systems seeking out racial features and languages.
Last edited by chola on 23 Mar 2018 20:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 23 Mar 2018 20:12

nepal is the poorest country in south asia. nepalis have been given the right to work in india and do anything except vote(many have become permanent by getting on voter list as well)....nepal's economy is kept afloat by remittances from this flock and by tourism.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 23 Mar 2018 20:23

chola wrote:Not hard to see where this will take us on the battlefield. Autonomous hunter-killer systems seeking out racial features and languages.

Except for facial camouflage and battle noise. It will work well in the lab.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Mar 2018 20:31

IMHO unnecessary dhoti shivering ...

I read about London having deployed a traffic system long back built by some Indian company. It just read the license plate and mailed the fine letter home. Now many years on the system could be integrated with Facial recognition. What is the big deal?

There have been many stories in Indian media of Audio forensics/voice matching/busting fake voice samples. That too is nothing new.

"Autonomous hunter-killer"? What shape? Where will it operate and where will it be launched from?

If it is of "Predator" size it will be shot down with a SAM. If it can be carried on the back will not have a range of more than a few kilometers.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Mar 2018 20:46

No dhoti-shiverng. Amreekis do not wear dhotis. lol

The US is heading this stuff off at the pass. They outspend thr PRC 3 to 1, have far more experience and infinitely more bases and allies.

But still they do not sit on their arse. They see possible threats and plan ahead of time.

This is Amreeki response to chini “2025 Plan” which the PRC is pouring funds into high tech sectors especially AI and robotics. They already have an advantage in small drones and are closing in on the big ones.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Mar 2018 20:51

Small drones can be carried by units as small as two man scout teams. Maybe a platoon will be followed or preceded by drones. Thr possibilities are endless. But during a firefight you need the drones to operate with proper discrimination.

Taking a picture of a license plate is different from recognizing a face and pulling up that person’s name and address.

Anyhow, the Amreeki fear is they will eventually gain far more experience with these systems because there is no privacy rights in Cheen unlike the US.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Mar 2018 20:59

From UK. The License plate reading was from way back and as I had guessed in my last post things have advanced in UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ology.html
AI surveillance cameras could soon identify faces in a crowd with 99 percent accuracy

From Russia
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/ ... as-moscow/
Facial recognition fitted to 5,000 CCTV cameras in Moscow

This *Facial Recognition* is not unique to China. Pretty soon it will be a commodity class play available COTS.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Mar 2018 21:07

chola wrote:Small drones can be carried by units as small as two man scout teams. Maybe a platoon will be followed or preceded by drones. Thr possibilities are endless. But during a firefight you need the drones to operate with proper discrimination.

Surveillance drone is understandable and even now such drones are in use. You spoke of "Autonomous hunter-killer". What kind of a payload will such a small drone carry apart from its power source and surveillance payload?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 23 Mar 2018 23:10

Just happened to be listening to this podcast from Forbes India.

http://www.forbesindia.com/audio/maga-z ... -mba/49071
Podcast: Social impact special & state of the MBA

@ 3:17 >> Talks about John Chamber's 1st startup investment in India. That investment is in a company that works on *Speech analytics" for non English speaking population of India.

@3:50 >> The company has developed a speech recognition software by which a Tribal in Gujarat can do a bank translation over the phone using "voice as the password"

That to me sound quite like .. oh so uber super dooper world beater Chinese "voiceprints".

Added Later: On the Startup
https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/sp ... 294924.ece
“The company is still in the deep tech area of speech recognition, voice biometrics and text-to-speech. We have created multiple patents and IP,” says Umesh. He points out that, “as someone who started to solve the problem for rural India, we recognised that the technology has global application.” They initially focussed on 17 Indian languages and now do 90 global languages. From the beginning, they decided they would be a B2B venture. “We have remained true to technology, true to the direction, which is B2B. We have scaled globally. India is about 35-40 per cent, Asia another 40-odd per cent, North America at 15-20 per cent,” says Umesh. Over time, he expects America to contribute 50 per cent of the business.

Target segments

In 2014, when Uniphore switched to a products company, it decided to target three specific segments. The first was a speech analytics product, auMina, the company’s flagship product. This can be used in areas where it is hard to do something without technology, basically call centres, which handle thousands of calls.

According to Umesh, auMina listens to all the calls in real-time, converts speech to text, detects human emotions, detects voice modulation and because it is picking up all the calls, can do Big Data analytics, giving out trends to the call centre operators.

The second product was to automate something that was already happening. Not all calls to a call centre need to go to a human agent. So, this product, akeira, a virtual assistant, will answer queries from callers. The third area was to reduce possibilities of human error. “We said we should be able to use AI to reduce the chances of human error. That is where we introduced voice biometrics (amVoice). Because this is voice biometrics, this is a mix of hundreds of parameters, behavioural, physiological, it even distinguishes between a mimic,” says Umesh.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2018 02:08

Indian Air Force Claims China's J-20 Stealth Fighter Jets Are Not Undetectable
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2018032310 ... table-iaf/

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 24 Mar 2018 20:27

Rohit Vats delivers a slap on Coupta's face
http://www.opindia.com/2018/03/the-prin ... in-doklam/

For some in the English mainstream media, Doklam is a gift which keeps on giving. Various articles and analysis offered on the subject have ranged from few balanced pieces to many which have been sensationalist.

Latest in this series, comes an article from ‘The Print’ which claims that Chinese have found a new route to South Doklam.


read it with images and all at the link above

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby vasu raya » 24 Mar 2018 20:55

pankajs wrote:Just happened to be listening to this podcast from Forbes India.

http://www.forbesindia.com/audio/maga-z ... -mba/49071
Podcast: Social impact special & state of the MBA

@ 3:17 >> Talks about John Chamber's 1st startup investment in India. That investment is in a company that works on *Speech analytics" for non English speaking population of India.

@3:50 >> The company has developed a speech recognition software by which a Tribal in Gujarat can do a bank translation over the phone using "voice as the password"

That to me sound quite like .. oh so uber super dooper world beater Chinese "voiceprints".


So, they could pick up Chinese dialects from their chatter?

Another application would be to augment Aadhaar with this especially the temporary virtual ids feature UIDAI plans to release, voice biometrics is useful for rural population.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Neshant » 26 Mar 2018 11:00

brar_w wrote:China is the second largest defense spender in the world, and its budgets is growing fast. Russia is its main foreign supplier and as such the Chinese market is the largest market the Russian defense equipment suppliers will have access to. Unlike the SU days where the Russian industry was developing multiple new fighter aircraft, the Su-57 is currently the only completely new clean sheet program in advanced development. Unless the Russians take the decision to completely wall off their largest market from their only new fighter project, expect talks of a sale or a potential sale to the Chinese happening within the next decade. This will likely begin to happen once the Russian Air Force has put a squadron or two in service which will be in the early to mid 2020s much like it has happened with the Su-35, and S-400 sales. The timelines and the level of interest from the Chinese will likely be a good indicator of how confident they are with the J-20.



The J-20 and J-31 look suspiciously like projects hurriedly rolled out to fool the world into believing they are equivalent to the US in capability.

Whether its real or just smoke & mirrors, they are already talking about developing a 6th gen plane.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 26 Mar 2018 11:22

Neshant wrote:The J-20 and J-31 look suspiciously like projects hurriedly rolled out to fool the world into believing they are equivalent to the US in capability.

Whether its real or just smoke & mirrors, they are already talking about developing a 6th gen plane.


It is the PERFECT strategy if no one is willing to go to war with them. We had 10 divisions versus their 3 brigades and about 300 planes within striking distance of the border versus their 12 J-10/J-11s in Tibet during Doklam.

We should have crushed them.

But no war? The J-20 and FC-31 (no J because it is not a PLAAF project) can be world beaters since no one is willing to take them to task.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 27 Mar 2018 03:06

chola wrote:
Neshant wrote:The J-20 and J-31 look suspiciously like projects hurriedly rolled out to fool the world into believing they are equivalent to the US in capability.

Whether its real or just smoke & mirrors, they are already talking about developing a 6th gen plane.


It is the PERFECT strategy if no one is willing to go to war with them. We had 10 divisions versus their 3 brigades and about 300 planes within striking distance of the border versus their 12 J-10/J-11s in Tibet during Doklam.

We should have crushed them.

But no war? The J-20 and FC-31 (no J because it is not a PLAAF project) can be world beaters since no one is willing to take them to task.


Chinese 6th gen = US 41/2 gen . .. may not even equal US 5th gen if a trade war hots up and access to tech companies get limited

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Mar 2018 23:28

Before we start dhoti-shivering, first determine what is the max range these tanks can be remotely controlled?

Chinese unmanned tanks pose new threat on Sino-Indian border
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/search?up ... -results=7

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 27 Mar 2018 23:52

There is even a more basic problem!

You can drive on remotely on a smooth asphalt road or a concrete road or even on a leveled dirt track with ease. Will the battle field provide such a environment? Is the Indo-China border such a place?

The real world battle field will come with many challenging land features and in such a environment situational awareness is of paramount importance. Will a remote controlled provide that critical bit?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pankajs » 28 Mar 2018 00:06

The morongiri of India media is beyond pale.
In 1962, even strong Indian Army defences in sectors like Ladakh and Walong were eventually overrun by human waves of Chinese soldiers. The scenario for a future war is now even bleaker – with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) throwing in waves of unmanned tanks to blast and crush Indian defences.

Just read this snippet to get an idea of the depth these so called jurnos have plunged to. Tank battle @ Walong? That too remote controlled?

Can someone ask this jurno to check the terrain @ Walong. Ask his to at least check Google Earth before putting Walong and Tank thrust in the same sentence.

The Chinese know how to press our buttons and these presstitutues keep obliging them. Sad.
Last edited by pankajs on 28 Mar 2018 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Mar 2018 00:07

can chinese tank climb uphill, i hope they are not talking about scaled RC models of chinese tanks

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby pravula » 28 Mar 2018 00:19

ArjunPandit wrote:can chinese tank climb uphill, i hope they are not talking about scaled RC models of chinese tanks

Nope, this

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Mar 2018 00:26

on second thoughts some area around laddakh aksai chin should be conducive to tank battles, doesnt IA keep T72s around here? This is what googleshwara threw at me..
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/T ... 497629.ece

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kartik » 28 Mar 2018 01:42

From AW&ST. No real content, just bravado from one of the J-20's designers.

BEIJING—The Avic Chengdu J-20, in service with Chinese military combat forces, is ready to go to war at any time, says its chief designer, Yang Wei.

The aircraft can be used for attacking and breaking through enemy ground-based defenses, Yang tells state media, suggesting the J-20 has a multirole capability.

“The J-20 now equips the combat force of the air force, taking an important step in forming its overall combat capability,” China Central Television says, citing Yang. “This means the J-20 is a fighter type that can be used in combat at any time.”

The J-20 is comparable to U.S. and Russian fifth-generation aircraft, says Yang, who thereby compares it to such types as the Lockheed Martin F-22 and F-35 and Sukhoi Su-57.

“Entering the combat force of the air force proves that it is already forming a real combat capability,” the chief designer says. “I think its performance is excellent. First, the military’s pilots like it, and that liking is from the heart.” The Chinese-language report does not make clear whether the J-20 is equipping one combat unit or more than one.

State media said a year ago that the large, twin-engine fighter was in service, though that did not mean it was operational. It first flew in 2011.

In its interview with the chief designer, the television network raised the question of whether the J-20 can kick down the door of enemy defenses by, for example, attacking radars.

“So-called kicking down the door is your greatest strength,” Yang says, implying that the J-20 is the source of that strength, above Sukhoi Flanker derivatives such as the J-16. “But I think the J-20 is not only a foot for kicking down the door. When the country and a war situation requires, you can make the J-20 kick down the door; it can kick down the door. But if you make the J-20 do other things, it can.”

Earlier in March, Yang said new versions of the J-20 would be developed (Aerospace DAILY, March 23).

With the development of the J-20, J-15 and J-16 fighters and the Y-20 airlifter, China has established a digitized aircraft development setup, he says. The country has progressively moved into the second rank of military aircraft builders—after the U.S. forming the first rank, presumably—and may even be at the front of the second rank. “The world is steadily recognizing this.”

As for future developments, “there will certainly be a drone platform. This road is still fairly long. When we really achieve our ultimate objective we may, along the way, derive different drone platforms, but we still need to go through a process of steady enhancement of drone autonomy and decision-making.”

Yang emphasizes the need to integrate the mechanical, information-gathering and intelligence aspects of future combat aircraft

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Mar 2018 07:35

pankajs wrote:The morongiri of India media is beyond pale.
In 1962, even strong Indian Army defences in sectors like Ladakh and Walong were eventually overrun by human waves of Chinese soldiers. The scenario for a future war is now even bleaker – with the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) throwing in waves of unmanned tanks to blast and crush Indian defences.

Just read this snippet to get an idea of the depth these so called jurnos have plunged to. Tank battle @ Walong? That too remote controlled?

Can someone ask this jurno to check the terrain @ Walong. Ask his to at least check Google Earth before putting Walong and Tank thrust in the same sentence.

The Chinese know how to press our buttons and these presstitutues keep obliging them. Sad.


Dead right
Terrain near Walong: Watch 2 minutes from here
https://youtu.be/6wUkKcSBtss?t=175

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2018 10:30

what is the feasibility of these 2 ideas to disrupt the enemy airborne support system which consists of tankers, AWACS, ELINT, transports flying between 200-500km behind the frontal edge of the fight and some will be escorted by fighters or have a CAP on call.

1. create a SM6 ERAM type missile with a powerful climb booster and a agile 2nd stage active radar + lookdown IIR sensor behind the nose . make it as big as brahmos to utilize the full centerline payload of the Su30. in mission profile, the su30 climbs to 50,000feet and mach1.8 before releasing this weapon which climbs to 120,000feet, gets its final set of mid course updates from a third party ELINT/AWACS monitoring the heavies far away and releases the 2nd stage for a short powered phase, followed by a mach6 dive onto the target at 40,000 feet using active radar and IIR in concert.
this will be what was hoped for in the novator KS172 which was stillborn. I am sure russia has certain plans in this regard using the higher ceiling and top speed of the Foxhound. range to target could perhaps be 500km.

2. Use the Shourya as a land based launch vehicle with 3 KV in 2nd stage , a 1st stage powered flight of around 700-1000km and then release all 3 of these 2nd stage KV on projected fwd path of the target but also the other two offset right and left to create a higher Pk zone. first cue by airborne or ground radar followed by midcourse updates

potential detection:
platinum grade assets like AWACS might mount a YAL1 type thermal sensor on the roof to detect these threats from the upper atmosphere and cue countermeasures. but transports and tankers will be too costly to equip, a special heavy with lookup or nose thermal sensor might patrol a certain area and broadcast a warning to all assets though.
the 1st stage can also certainly be detected by ground and air based radars.
even the JSF has shown a ability to detect and image BMs using its optronic system...not sure of tracking capability

potential countermeasures:
chaff - reject using IIR
flares - reject using active RF x-band seeker
escorts deploy big radar reflectors and climb up to present as sacrificial pawns - multiple KV, datalink among KV to allocate targets
escorts fire AAMs in a lookup mode climbing slowly to point nose at incoming....hence tailor the 1st stage to release the KVs at zenith angles inside a steep cone , let them spiral down if they have to ... other than foxhound types, fighter planes become very sluggish as they approach 50,000feet...its the rare one who are still powerful and agile beyond that.
high power RF jamming - home in on jam
air launched MALD type radar reflector decoys.... off the mothership ....

if we can bag a few and create a few near misses, it will disrupt the enemy for area denial/anti access and drive them further off station to the back, leading to reduced effectiveness of his fighter and bomber assets.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby bmallick » 28 Mar 2018 12:10

The unmanned tanks have really interesting issues.

The remote operation of these tanks would involve significant radio chatter. Which implies:

a. No radio silence while the tanks move into position for attack. Thus loosing tactical surprise.

b. Easy triangulation of the operator location, which I presume would not be more than a few KM's behind the line. Thus within artillery guns or rockets range. Nothing better than targetting the unarmoured operator positions for stopping the armour.

c. Jamming oe disruption of the communication would also cause quite commotion.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Mar 2018 13:50

all the operators will sit inside a superhard 100m deep bunker in the tarim basin meant to shrug off a 500kt nukular strike ... and communicate via ku band satcom dish on each tank covered by a plastic dome like on a UAV.

Image

your move next...you dirty yindu you :)

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby nam » 28 Mar 2018 14:27

Each of the remote tank will need atleast two people, if they are using gunner + commander sights. If not, then it makes it a sitting duck for ATGM.

Even if survives, the ATGM will take out comm system. Fundamentally a working "dead" tank.

If one of the TFTA tank breaks down while travelling through the passes, given there will not be anyone around to fix it or move it..the entire robotic armour army will be sitting right there.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Philip » 28 Mar 2018 14:28

Shiv, are these the annual "Bot war contests" or wot? .We just have to sow a few minefields in the limited terrain available for such Chin-bots, unless like Chin pigs, they can fly too (after hitting a mine)!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby shiv » 28 Mar 2018 14:52

Kartik wrote:“I think its performance is excellent. First, the military’s pilots like it, and that liking is from the heart.”

This is scary.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 28 Mar 2018 15:05

Singha wrote:even the JSF has shown a ability to detect and image BMs using its optronic system...not sure of tracking capability


The F-35 is capable of detecting, developing and communicating tracking data, while also doing launch point, and impact point estimations for ballistic missile targets - Essentially all the tracking data that a BMD system like the THAAD or AEGIS would need to more precisely "hand-off" tracks etc. It is also an essential pre-requisite to future BPI. This has been validated in at least one actual BMD test using the F-35 sensors suite and a surrogate aircraft during actual Ballistic Missile target flight test conducted by the US Missile Defense Agency. The live test using actual Missile Defense mission algorithms/software was conducted in 2014 but was classified and only revealed a few months ago.

Prior to this the aircraft had demonstrated the sensor suite ability to do this mission by detecting targets of opportunity but had never demonstrated end to end ability in this regard. This is very much nascent capability still but Lockheed's recent move of stripping away the EODAS contract from Northrop Grumman and handing it to Raytheon which has the most experience (amongst US firms) in developing EO/IR sensors for the BMD mission hints that this capability is going to be explored even further.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Mar 2018 19:35

china staged a larga ship of the line exercise in SCS on march27. satellite photos

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-chin ... SKBN1H3135


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