China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2019 20:53

hnair wrote:Moved all posts related to admin action to Forum Feedback Thread

Khalsa, the idea of a "Fleet in being" is being pushed subtly around the net nowadays and that is ok as a cheap-ass tactic. But not here at BRF.


:rotfl: you said it.

Arthur Herbert, 1st Earl of Torrington, originator of the term "fleet in being" in 1690
In naval warfare, a "fleet in being" is a naval force that extends a controlling influence without ever leaving port. Were the fleet to leave port and face the enemy, it might lose in battle and no longer influence the enemy's actions, but while it remains safely in port, the enemy is forced to continually deploy forces to guard against it. A "fleet in being" can be part of a sea denial doctrine, but not one of sea control.

Even more so than other surface vessels in Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine (navy), the powerful German battleship Tirpitz served her entire career as a "fleet in being" in her own right. Although she never fired a shot at an enemy ship, her mere presence forced the Royal Navy to allocate powerful warships in defending Arctic convoys, and caused a major convoy (PQ-17) to scatter, suffering huge losses, mainly to U-boats and aircraft.


7 LPD ships of san antonio class size and we are yet to see even 2 of them sortie together outside of their harbour for a realistic exercise not the made for photography where lines of white powder bombs erupt and long line of steel jawed "wolf warrior" marines surge out of LSTs to a clean beach with DLSRs all clicking. Yawn....

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Jan 2019 22:00

China cautions countries against helping Taiwan to produce submarines
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 529752.cms

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jan 2019 22:14

Singha wrote:China cautions countries against helping Taiwan to produce submarines
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 529752.cms

Are their Type 052D destroyers not good enough to tackle them? :mrgreen:

I thought they had 11 of them!


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 17 Jan 2019 17:57

On the 15th of January 2019, the US Defense Intelligence Agency released its 2019 China Military Power Report:

http://www.dia.mil/Portals/27/Documents/News/Military%20Power%20Publications/China_Military_Power_FINAL_5MB_20190103.pdf

Of note is that the DIA is reporting the Chinese are developing a new regional or Tactical bomber capable of carrying precision guided a2g munitions as well as "long range" air to air missiles. This is in addition to the strategic bomber - H20 - being developed by Xian. On page 95 of the report they predict that these two bombers will probably reach IOC post 2025.

The details in this report wrt to the tactical bomber are vague, but Tyler Rogoway at the Drive has compiled this in-depth article on the regional bomber:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25989/intel-report-confirms-china-developing-stealthy-regional-bomber-in-addition-to-strategic-bomber

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 21 Jan 2019 21:45

China Developing Fifth-gen Stealth Fighter-bomber, Says DIA

Image
The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency has outlined its assessment that China is developing a new fifth-generation tactical strike fighter in its newly published report, China Military Power—Modernising a force to fight and win.

The aircraft, referred to as the JH-XX by some sources and believed to be a product of the 601 (Shenyang) Aircraft Design Institute, is one of two new stealth bombers under development in China, intended to strike regional and global targets. These designs will embody “full-spectrum upgrades compared with current operational bomber fleets” and will employ “many fifth-generation fighter technologies in their design.”

The first of these new bombers is the so-called “Strategic Bomber,” described as a developmental next-generation long-range bomber and understood to be the Xian H-20—an aircraft with a broadly similar flying wing configuration to the Northrop Grumman B-2 and B-21, and credited with a 4,000- to 5,000-nm range with a 20-tonne warload. The H-20 is almost certainly the “developmental strategic bomber” that the DIA believes the PLA Air Force will eventually use to undertake the nuclear mission that it was assigned as of 2017. The DIA reported: "The bomber’s deployment would provide China with its first credible nuclear triad of delivery systems dispersed across land, sea, and air—a posture considered since the Cold War to improve survivability and strategic deterrence."

Meanwhile, the smaller JH-XX is named in the DIA report simply as the “Tactical Bomber” and is described as a developmental next-generation fighter-bomber. The DIA believes that it will incorporate AESA radar and will be armed with long-range air-to-air missiles and precision-guided munitions. Radius of action is likely to be 1,000 to 2,000 nm.

This aircraft would allow the PLAAF to conduct both offensive and defensive air operations farther from China’s borders, reinforcing A2/AD (anti-access/area denial) capabilities and operating beyond the "first island chain" that runs south from the Kuril Islands on to Japan and the Philippines. The aircraft could attack strategic targets in Japan and possibly even on Guam, as well as in India, and the South China Sea.


The DIA report suggests that the development of long-range bombers forms part of China’s ongoing effort to expand the geographical area across which its forces can operate. China’s aim is to deter and deny foreign regional force projection and to prevent any intervention by foreign forces in a Taiwan scenario. The possibility of such an intervention stands in the way of Beijing’s longstanding goal of completing the reunification of Taiwan with the mainland. The report described this as the “primary driver for China’s military modernization.”

Images of a model of the JH-XX first appeared in 2013 and artists’ impressions appeared in the May 2018 issue of Aviation Knowledge, China’s oldest, most popular, and prestigious aviation magazine. The aircraft depicted bore a passing resemblance to the U.S. FB-22 and FB-23 penetrating “regional fighter-bomber” concepts of the mid-2000s, with canted twin-tails, internal weapons bays, and two crew. The Chinese aircraft incorporates air intakes on top of the fuselage behind the cockpit, and a ventral main weapons bay, with separate side-mounted bays for air-to-air missiles.

The DIA believes that the new bombers will probably reach initial operational capability “no sooner than 2025.”


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 22 Jan 2019 12:06

How many they are "developing" with this one? Three. Right? From where the tech teams designers and funding is going to come for all this? How come they are so fast in developing this aircrafts. Far more faster than the Khanland? Are this doubts too mango like one coming from a mango man like me or experts are also asking?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby rkhanna » 22 Jan 2019 12:36

Yagnasri wrote:How many they are "developing" with this one? Three. Right? From where the tech teams designers and funding is going to come for all this? How come they are so fast in developing this aircrafts. Far more faster than the Khanland? Are this doubts too mango like one coming from a mango man like me or experts are also asking?


In the medium run it doesnt matter if these are mango's or not. The Chinese have the capital and the relative space (not going to war anytime soon) to continue iterative tech development to shorten the learning curve.

We can use the Parable oof Japanese and Korean civilian/commercial tech in the 70s/80s/90s and compare them to today.

The major difference is that the Chinese are developing their tech not from a free market / economic dominance filter but a national security and national strategic objectives filter. The resources of their country (capital, HR, Physical infra, Education, Academics) are far better organized and managed than even the Koreans and Japanese.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 22 Jan 2019 12:47

Yagnasri wrote:How many they are "developing" with this one? Three. Right? From where the tech teams designers and funding is going to come for all this? How come they are so fast in developing this aircrafts. Far more faster than the Khanland? Are this doubts too mango like one coming from a mango man like me or experts are also asking?


To be perfectly honest I cannot find anything on this tactical stealth bomber. I’ve started following chini mil in depth for the past year so maybe I’m too novice but I haven’t found anything from the tweets of the more respected watchers like the neutral German and French ones.

The H20 strategic bomber do have a lot of rumors and literature so most likely a real program. Their tactical bomber projects, otoh, are pretty much variants from existing programs — JH-7B from the JH-7/JH-7A and J-16 from their Flanker lines. The JH-7B might be canceled to concentrate resources on the J-16.

There is a recent report of a two-seat J-20 variant which can turn it into a possible strike fighter.

They have had a number of clean sheet designs in the past decade and a half in the fighter side of things with the J-20 and FC-31 but not much on bombers besides the JH-7.

The main resources for heavier bombers should come from Xian (JH-7x, H-6x.) Fighter bomber/strike fighters can come from their two main fighter manufacturers at Chengdu (J-10, J-20) or Shenyang (J-11, J-16.) There are others involved with trainers and transport such as Guizhou, Hongdu and Shaanxi who might throw up a prototype to test market. In the future, quite possible their civilian manufacturer COMAC (C919) will be involved.

Compared to most non-gora aviation industries which are usually based around a single manufacturer (Embraer, HAL, TAI for examples) Cheen’s are legion and they compete. That is why we see more projects from them.

In drone and light utility/civilian spaces there are even more from the private sector and firms not traditionally involved in aerospace.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Kengsley » 22 Jan 2019 19:08

chola wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:How many they are "developing" with this one? Three. Right? From where the tech teams designers and funding is going to come for all this? How come they are so fast in developing this aircrafts. Far more faster than the Khanland? Are this doubts too mango like one coming from a mango man like me or experts are also asking?


To be perfectly honest I cannot find anything on this tactical stealth bomber. I’ve started following chini mil in depth for the past year so maybe I’m too novice but I haven’t found anything from the tweets of the more respected watchers like the neutral German and French ones.

The H20 strategic bomber do have a lot of rumors and literature so most likely a real program. Their tactical bomber projects, otoh, are pretty much variants from existing programs — JH-7B from the JH-7/JH-7A and J-16 from their Flanker lines. The JH-7B might be canceled to concentrate resources on the J-16.


The DIA's report helps to clear up a lot of confusion caused by the media conflating the larger H20 and the JH XX. When pictures of the models detailed below first hit the internet in 2013, articles assumed that these were two designs competing for the same strategic bomber programme ala Chengdu and Shenyang competing for the J-XX programme.

Image

When Aviation Knowledge placed fan-art of the same design on the cover of its May 2018 issue, analysts like Kyle Mizokami from Popular Mechanics continued with the assumption that the design was simply a competitor to Xian's H20 design.

Image

Aviation Knowledge is published by the Chinese Society of Aeronautics and Astronautics which has ties to the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics which in turn is an R&D base for various sub branches of AVIC and the PLAAF. All that makes the magazine's editors excellent sources WRT future PLAAF projects, but as I said, the media conflated this fighter bomber with the strategic bomber programme.

JH is PLAAF nomenclature for "fighter bomber" whilst H denotes all their bombers. In hindsight it should have been clear that "JH-XX" was more a tactical bomber ala the JH7A than the much larger H20.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2019 20:53

I wonder if leftist Obama administration also gave them the YF-23 design as a partying gift barring the wings design this looks so similar to the YF-23 design

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 22 Jan 2019 20:57

could be stolen also. they are stealing 24x7.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby John » 22 Jan 2019 21:07

Austin wrote:I wonder if leftist Obama administration also gave them the YF-23 design as a partying gift barring the wings design this looks so similar to the YF-23 design

China is importance in the growth of US economy is always understated (granted it came at the expense of Europe and Japan). it helped provide US with cheap goods, Chinese investment (mainly from Chinese officials) in real estate property in NY, SF is often hushed up and most of children of Chinese communist party officials school in US or Canada (who contribute huge amounts of $$ anonymously for enrollment). So i wouldn't be surprised if Bush & Obama turn a blind eye to intellectual theft to keep the $$ train rolling.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby gaurav.p » 22 Jan 2019 21:12

Yf23 wing design is completely different from above pictures. What am I missing?

Stealing / reverse engg may look unethical but there is no courts of justice to punish such deeds. Rather I would say it is a quick way to leapfrog but the sustainability is still a question.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 22 Jan 2019 21:53

Singha wrote:could be stolen also. they are stealing 24x7.


Giving it away under the table and if caught was labelled as stolen was the SOP of Obama/Dems administration , Just google for the tech that Chinese have stolen/hacked during Obama era and what penalty have they paid , Compare that to DT action of holding a CFO of a big company of China on alleged ground of breaking sanction.

They simply gave away technology due to ideological reasons and full affect of it is coming to be known now.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby AdityaM » 23 Jan 2019 22:16

What to make of this :shock:

China's new tanks so advanced, its soldiers don't know how to use them

elite combined-arms brigade driving the new Type 99A tank lost a 2018 mock battle to an adversary kitted out with older tanks.

The Type 99A tanks are digitalised and interconnected, and capable of striking enemies beyond visual range, the Global Times reported.

"However, the elite brigade was heavily suppressed during the exercise because of obsolete ways of thinking,"

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Jan 2019 22:33

AdityaM wrote:What to make of this :shock:

China's new tanks so advanced, its soldiers don't know how to use them

elite combined-arms brigade driving the new Type 99A tank lost a 2018 mock battle to an adversary kitted out with older tanks.

The Type 99A tanks are digitalised and interconnected, and capable of striking enemies beyond visual range, the Global Times reported.

"However, the elite brigade was heavily suppressed during the exercise because of obsolete ways of thinking,"


They don’t know how to use these fancy gadgets. From what I read, the PLA are full of barely educated peasant volunteers who see the military as a way to leave the villages.

I posted an article about the USS Fitzgerald which collided with a giant freighter despite having one of the most powerful set of sensors on earth. The crew just didn’t know how to maintain and use the radar and they were basically blind on the night of the fatal collision.

I think a similar thing happened here. The old units knew how to operate their their obsolete equipment while the “elite” unit didn’t with their new gear.

Or maybe their new stuff simply doesn’t work. Maybe their targeting system breaks when cellular goes on roaming. But you can’t break an iron sight!

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jan 2019 22:38

What is BVR in tanks?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 23 Jan 2019 22:44

ArjunPandit wrote:What is BVR in tanks?



ATGM with networked data from drones, scout vehicles or humans with targeting equiptment I assume. Can’t see an over-the-horizon radar system on a tank.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Prasad » 23 Jan 2019 23:36

LOAL with targetting data provided by a drone?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 23 Jan 2019 23:40

Some abrams tanks have a rudimentary battlefield networking to see where fellow tanks are and maybe few details like ammo status

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 23 Jan 2019 23:42

chola wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:What is BVR in tanks?



ATGM with networked data from drones, scout vehicles or humans with targeting equipment I assume. Can’t see an over-the-horizon radar system on a tank.



tank launched missiles with targetting info from drones ?? ..i assume you just need the comm link

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Karan M » 24 Jan 2019 07:23

A Refleks like missile with 3rd party designation.

Type 99A advanced.. yet another T-72 layout "advancement".

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby saip » 24 Jan 2019 08:58

At 20' height the horizon is at 10 miles. So the Chinese ATGMs have a range in excess of that?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Neshant » 24 Jan 2019 09:27


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 24 Jan 2019 10:37

^^^ Trump is trying to do to Cheen what Cheen is doing to Japan (and the USN) — counterflood them.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/japans-east-china-sea-nightmare-too-many-chinese-fighter-jets-and-warships-counter-40517

The sheer number of Chinese warships and warplanes patrolling a disputed East China Sea island chain threatens to overwhelm Japan's own ships and planes.


http://www.atimes.com/article/china-turns-up-heat-in-japans-skies-less-so-in-south-korea/amp/

Historically, Rand presents 2016 as the peak year for JASDF intercepts, with a total of 1,168 scrambles – the largest number since record-keeping started in 1958. Of these 1,168 scrambles, 73% were in response to approaching Chinese aircraft, the report states.


Britshits are talking about new RN bases in Singapore and Brunei. France said they were sending their carrier.

Can you imagine the spectacle around the chini seas?

Packed cheek-to-jowl with J-11s, F-15s, F-16s, J-10s, F-35s, J-20s, Arleigh-Burkes, Sejong the Greats, Kongos, Atagos, 052Ds, 055s, Nimitzes, Kuznetsovs, QEs, etc.!

Encounters in the hundreds between some of the premier systems around today.

I envy the crowd there. They get to wrestle with other advanced states and their toys. We get religious zealots from the dark ages and their green painted crap. For all of our invective and shivering with Cheen we have never had even a photo opportunity with one of their aircraft or ships never mind aggressive “unsafe” encounters that the US and its allies deal with.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 25 Jan 2019 12:59

saip wrote:At 20' height the horizon is at 10 miles. So the Chinese ATGMs have a range in excess of that?


Forgive the jurno guruji. He does not know how to use calculator (or is it abacus?) :mrgreen:

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 26 Jan 2019 10:51

US Warships Again Enter Taiwan Strait, But This Time With Chinese Bombers Overhead

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01- ... s-overhead

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 26 Jan 2019 12:45

Had no idea that the margin was this great. I think a good chunk of their launches were for the GPS ripoff.

https://mobile.twitter.com/zone5aviation/status/1083231986821541888

2018 Space launches:

Cheen 39
Unkil 29
Roos 20
E You 8
Bharat 7
Nippon 6
Oz 3

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Jan 2019 09:14

Video: Close-up details of the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile DF-26 show the missile can greatly adjust its position mid-flight to accurately attack a moving aircraft carrier,

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 3916928001

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby hnair » 28 Jan 2019 09:38

Austin wrote:Video: Close-up details of the Chinese anti-ship ballistic missile DF-26 show the missile can greatly adjust its position mid-flight to accurately attack a moving aircraft carrier,

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 3916928001


where in the video does " DF-26 show the missile can greatly adjust its position mid-flight to accurately attack a moving aircraft carrier" ?

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Jan 2019 10:26

That a claim they make but it wont be possible any how to show it either

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2019 10:31

Hostile incident between a soko ddg and japanese lrmp
Plane. The ship locked on to lrmp using x band missile radar

Both sides have released videos giving their own version

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/asia/sou ... index.html

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby souravB » 28 Jan 2019 10:38

Singha wrote:Hostile incident between a soko ddg and japanese lrmp
Plane. The ship locked on to lrmp using x band missile radar

Both sides have released videos giving their own version

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/asia/sou ... index.html

Don't they both have Khan IFF system? It'd be advantage Cheen if they get engaged in themselves. Khan chacha should bind them in a single network using the aegis IAMD to have an effective picture of the SCS at any given time.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2019 11:40

not a question of IFF, but hostile low level passing and response with missile lock.
the have some other dispute.
also soko cannot be relied on to take a side vs cheen.

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jan 2019 12:10

Singha wrote:
also soko cannot be relied on to take a side vs cheen.



Not by accident. Cheen treats Korea with a far lighter touch though the US forces there are even closer to the chini strategic and population centers than those on Japan.

SoKo is a conduit of advanced western tech to Cheen.

http://www.atimes.com/article/china-turns-up-heat-in-japans-skies-less-so-in-south-korea/

China turns up heat in Japan’s skies, less so in South Korea


A recent Rand Corporation report entitled China’s Military Activities in the East China Sea – Implications for Japan’s Air Self-Defense Force, suggests that China’s People’s Liberation Army Air Force, or PLAAF, is seeking to wear down the Japanese Air Self Defense Force, or JASDF, by subjecting it to high-frequency aerial intrusions into, or adjacent to, Japanese airspace.

But while the PLAAF is also buzzing the air space of the United States’ other Northeast Asian ally, South Korea, the number of intrusions there are scarcer, indicating a milder political approach.


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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 28 Jan 2019 18:06

January 25th marked the 6th anniversary of the Y-20. I believe this is the anniversary of first flight onlee. More than 20 had been built at the factory near Xian.

Still 6 years even from 1st flight to a score in service? Extremely rapid development and deployment of this thing. Along with the ARJ21 and C919 on the civilian side, the chinis have built up credible large plane capability.

Espionage and the force feeding of the military and government backed airlines with indigenized products help.


https://mobile.twitter.com/HenriKenhmann/status/1088823357905104896

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Le programme Y-20 fêtera demain son 6ème "anniversaire". L'avion de transport militaire chinois a réalisé son vol inaugural le 26 Janvier 2013. Aujourd'hui plus d'une vingtaine d'appareils de série est sortie de l'usine près de Xi'an.


Significance (in chini watchers’ tongue) is Chengdu Qionglai is PLAAF operation base as opposed to the factory grounds at Xian.
https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1089807004200329216
@Rupprecht_A
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Interesting image showing 7 Y-20As at Chengdu-Qionglai, since four of them are lighter coloured than the other three ... at first I thought these might be the flightline at Xi'an (XAC) including some prototypes but it is indeed at Chengdu-Qionglai.

Image

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Singha » 28 Jan 2019 19:32

>> Still 6 years even from 1st flight to a score in service?

this beats the C17 program by Mcdonell douglas!!

if you look at all the struggles they have still some shortfalls, sinic gear makes no mention of various perf parameters, other than being a lookalike of C17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C- ... sign_phase

fardeen khan is also a khan, just like salman khan!! :)

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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 29 Jan 2019 00:09

souravB wrote:
Singha wrote:Hostile incident between a soko ddg and japanese lrmp
Plane. The ship locked on to lrmp using x band missile radar

Both sides have released videos giving their own version

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/asia/sou ... index.html

Don't they both have Khan IFF system? It'd be advantage Cheen if they get engaged in themselves. Khan chacha should bind them in a single network using the aegis IAMD to have an effective picture of the SCS at any given time.


Both South Korea and Japan are part of the AEGIS community with their large destroyers and both have a pathway to the higher baselines that bring them close to what the USN has as the latest standards and this involves joint and interoperable BMD and AAW via CEC and eventually NIFC-CA once SOKO and Japan acquire those upgrades. But not all of their fleets are AEGIS capable so while they would be able to share data and communicate, there would not be true fire-control level connectivity.

chola
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Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 29 Jan 2019 05:03

Singha wrote:>> Still 6 years even from 1st flight to a score in service?

this beats the C17 program by Mcdonell douglas!!

if you look at all the struggles they have still some shortfalls, sinic gear makes no mention of various perf parameters, other than being a lookalike of C17

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C- ... sign_phase

fardeen khan is also a khan, just like salman khan!! :)


LoL. But GD, Fardeen made a few flicks too and it is hard for anyone (not named Khan) to make even one. And that is what we can say about the Y-20. We do not know much about it but we do know it can fly and is inducted in numbers. It is what we can say about Fardeen. Not everyone can be Salman or Aamir.


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