China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3988
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 14 Jan 2020 18:22

Only cheen cookie cutter cheap AWACS.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1216757262452170752

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Funny yellow bird ... a factory fresh KJ-500.

Image


chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3988
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 15 Jan 2020 16:38

Still flying, making and selling MiG-21 ripoffs.

Not only the assembly lines for this ancient design have to be kept around but the manufacturing for obsolete turbojets too. Waste of resources or good jobs program to retain skills and keep the chini masses from being unemployed and revolting?

https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1217113322656616450


@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
·
18h
Rarely seen J-7Bs assigned to the 18th Air Brigade/WTC spotting their colourful unit marking (a hawk's head).
Anyway I hoped, this unit would convert to a more modern type (J-10 was reported a few weeks ago).

Image



https://mobile.twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1216846555971497985

@Rupprecht_A
@RupprechtDeino
Image of a rarely photographed Sudan Air Force FTC-2000S.

Image


Production FTC-2000 for export. In PLAAF and PLAN training units, it is called the JL-9:
Image

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7886
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2020 11:54

I will make a prediction. FTC2000 and L-15 derivatives will be the most exported aircraft out of Chinese stables. They will become the modern day Mig21 and F5 equivalent. And they don't even have competition. The closest would be the T-7 derivatives which will be more expensive to acquire and maintain.

chetonzz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 31
Joined: 18 Mar 2019 11:11

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chetonzz » 16 Jan 2020 15:02

...and the phakis still believe that JunkFighter-17 is their indigenous effort :lol: :lol: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3988
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 16 Jan 2020 15:38

Indranil wrote:I will make a prediction. FTC2000 and L-15 derivatives will be the most exported aircraft out of Chinese stables. They will become the modern day Mig21 and F5 equivalent. And they don't even have competition. The closest would be the T-7 derivatives which will be more expensive to acquire and maintain.


Indranil, they have another aircraft in their stable that is even cheaper (and sells well because of it) and that is the K-8. It's been exported by the hundreds to over dozen different third world nations.

That said, the modern chini export jet, the successor to the F-7, should be the JF-17. The FTC2000, a F-7 retread, undercuts and cannibalizes its sales. For a turbofan based fighter, the Blunder should be the least expensive option for poorer air forces but not when you undercut it with a turbojet powered alternative. It's like that old cricket player who refuses to retire and continues to occupies a valuable spot in the batting order. lol

I think the L-15 has a ready made customer base that use the K-8 which came from the same chini firm Hongdu. It is a supersonic trainer. But even here the MiG-21 retread, the JL-9, had eaten into sales with the PLAAF and PLANAF. Chini mil watchers sometimes are incredulous that even their carrier academy trains with the JL-9 instead of the L-15.
Last edited by chola on 16 Jan 2020 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2032
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Manish_P » 16 Jan 2020 16:27

chola wrote:...

Indranil, they have another aircraft in their stable that is even cheaper (and sells well because of it) and that is the K-8. It's been exported by the hundreds to over dozen different turd world nations.


Humble request.. it may be fashionable in the west but on this forum let's not condescendingly disparage less developed countries as 't*rd world'

For one India herself is considered to be a third world country and for another several of these nations are our current/future Customers.. Thanks.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3988
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby chola » 16 Jan 2020 16:36

^^^ Point noted and taken, Manish ji.

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2032
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Manish_P » 16 Jan 2020 17:35

Thank you for your understanding, Chola ji, and for your close watch on the Chinese Mil-Ind complex :)

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7886
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Indranil » 16 Jan 2020 20:28

The JF17 has competition from T50 from Korea. MWF and Gripen E/F will be ow become much more expensive. I think HAL should ask its IJT +HTT40 team to design a fighter jet with 30 kN of dry thrust and 45 kN of wet thrust. The trainer version of this will add a second seat at the cost of radar and ammo. The unmanned versions will become the loyal wingman and potential 5th Gen aerial target.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 16 Jan 2020 21:37

Indranil wrote:I will make a prediction. FTC2000 and L-15 derivatives will be the most exported aircraft out of Chinese stables. They will become the modern day Mig21 and F5 equivalent. And they don't even have competition. The closest would be the T-7 derivatives which will be more expensive to acquire and maintain.


We don't know whether T-7 will be more expensive to acquire than any of those unless we have the data in front of us and whether we are looking at an economic exercise (I have x $$ how many aircraft can I buy) or an affordability exercise that factors in capability, ability to meet missions, platform availability and support. On paper the Chinese Predator/Reaper knockoffs are much cheaper but there is plenty of information out there that provides a fairly good context to what also comes with that "affordable" sticker price. The T-7 is designed for 60 aircraft a year production rate so at FRP it should get quite affordable for what you get and possibly as affordable if not more affordable than some of the lesser capable trainers it will compete with.

Having said that, the air-vehicle piece of the T-7 is only about 50-60% of the program. As a trainer, nearly half of that program revolves around simulated training, Live and Virtual Construct and Open Mission Systems that allow very easy integration of new and projected capability into the training system. I suspect those buying the trainer will be evaluating that more heavily as sustaining that part of the enterprise over the next 3,4 or 5 decades is going to cost money, be technically challenging and require a level of dedication and investment that comes from a large single user or a large user-base in general. It will not only be traditional trainer for many but also an aircraft that will supplement flight hours for in-service experienced pilots. This is what will set it apart compared to the competition given the USAF and its budget is backing it with a 300-400 aircraft order sized and it is going to be a strong contender for the USN in the future adding hundreds of additional aircraft.

Though there would be very little overlap between the T-7 user base and those of the FTC-2000 and L-15. I suspect the T-7 user community will be users operating 4+ generation, 5th generation fighters and eyeing 6th generation aircraft. The FTC-200/L-15 market will predominantly be users who won't have access to the higher end western milware or may not want to operate it for other reasons.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3613
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 21 Jan 2020 16:13

https://www.janes.com/article/93809/chinese-type-052d-destroyer-fitted-with-possible-anti-ship-missile-decoy-launchers

Image

Images have emerged of a Chinese Type 052D (Luyang III)-class destroyer fitted with what appears to be an anti-ship missile countermeasures system.

The photographs, which were taken during the nine-day 'Sea Guardian 2020' maritime exercise between the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) and the Pakistan Navy (PN), show that the destroyer Yinchuan (pennant number 175) has been modified, with a pair of tubes installed on each side of the hangar roof, which appear to be roughly 500 mm in diameter and perhaps 2 m in length.

The system is similar in appearance to the US Navy's (USN's) Mk 59 decoy launch system, which can deploy an expendable inflatable decoy designed to seduce an incoming anti-ship missile. The Mk 59 was first fitted to Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Ramage in late 2013.

source : Janes.com

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3613
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby kit » 21 Jan 2020 16:17

i presume the decoy to be something to the one like this


Image

FDS3 inflatable floating corner reflector decoy at NAVDEX 2015. Based on the latest version of the Royal Navy’s Outfit DLF soft-kill decoy system, FDS3 is a ship-deployed, passive radio frequency (RF) countermeasure that can be used in seduction, distraction and confusion roles against even the most modern RF missile seekers.

The FDS3 system comprises a deck-mounted launch tube, which is preloaded with the stowed decoy.

Following launch activation in the operations room, the decoy package – of ‘metallised fabric’ construction – is launched out of the tube and then fully inflated alongside the ship’s hull on the sea surface.

Once fully inflated, the decoy is automatically released and floats free past the stern. According to Airborne Systems, the very rapid deployment and inflation time “means that full radar cross-section is achieved within seconds of launch into the sea… this provides for a very effective seduction capability suitable for use against supersonic and late turn-on threats”.

In September 2013, Airborne Systems announced a contract award from the US Navy to supply a variant of the FDS3 decoy system – designated Mk 59 Mod 0 – to meet a rapid response effort for improved soft-kill self-defence. In July 2014, it chalked up another success when New Zealand selected FDS3 as part of its ANZAC class Frigate Systems Upgrade programme.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7886
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2020 22:01

brar_w wrote:
Indranil wrote:I will make a prediction. FTC2000 and L-15 derivatives will be the most exported aircraft out of Chinese stables. They will become the modern day Mig21 and F5 equivalent. And they don't even have competition. The closest would be the T-7 derivatives which will be more expensive to acquire and maintain.


We don't know whether T-7 will be more expensive to acquire than any of those unless we have the data in front of us and whether we are looking at an economic exercise (I have x $$ how many aircraft can I buy) or an affordability exercise that factors in capability, ability to meet missions, platform availability and support. On paper the Chinese Predator/Reaper knockoffs are much cheaper but there is plenty of information out there that provides a fairly good context to what also comes with that "affordable" sticker price. The T-7 is designed for 60 aircraft a year production rate so at FRP it should get quite affordable for what you get and possibly as affordable if not more affordable than some of the lesser capable trainers it will compete with.

Having said that, the air-vehicle piece of the T-7 is only about 50-60% of the program. As a trainer, nearly half of that program revolves around simulated training, Live and Virtual Construct and Open Mission Systems that allow very easy integration of new and projected capability into the training system. I suspect those buying the trainer will be evaluating that more heavily as sustaining that part of the enterprise over the next 3,4 or 5 decades is going to cost money, be technically challenging and require a level of dedication and investment that comes from a large single user or a large user-base in general. It will not only be traditional trainer for many but also an aircraft that will supplement flight hours for in-service experienced pilots. This is what will set it apart compared to the competition given the USAF and its budget is backing it with a 300-400 aircraft order sized and it is going to be a strong contender for the USN in the future adding hundreds of additional aircraft.

Though there would be very little overlap between the T-7 user base and those of the FTC-2000 and L-15. I suspect the T-7 user community will be users operating 4+ generation, 5th generation fighters and eyeing 6th generation aircraft. The FTC-200/L-15 market will predominantly be users who won't have access to the higher end western milware or may not want to operate it for other reasons.

I love the T-7. As I have said before, I love any product which is good enough. T7 is an all aluminium plane driven by a reliable engine which doesn't push on the limits of its capability (yet!)

Chinese penetration into the defence markets of African, South American and South east Asian countries is grossly underestimated. 8000 Mig-21s and nearly 3000 F-5s have retired or at the brink of retirement. How many countries have the wherewithal to replace them with $100-$300 million fighter jets?

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2895
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Rony » 21 Jan 2020 23:26

This One Cheap Fighter Jet From Sweden Crushed China's Air Force

A 2015 war game in Thailand underscored the enduring flaws in Chinese aerial-warfare tactics. Despite flying a modern fighter type, Chinese fighter pilots in Thailand were vulnerable to long-range attacks and slow to react to aggressive tactics.

Exercise Falcon Strike 2015, which ran at Korat Royal Thai Air Force Base for two weeks in mid-November 2015, was the first-ever joint exercise between the Chinese and Thai air forces.

The Chinese brought J-11 fighters to the war game. The Thai air force operates F-16s from Korat, but the for the war game the Thai air arm sent Gripen fighters from Surat Thani Air Force Base.

The Thai air force operates 12 JAS-39C/D Gripens.

For seven days straight the J-11s tangled with the Gripens. The J-11, which is a Chinese variant of the Russian Su-27, proved to be the superior dogfighter, a Chinese participant in the exercise explained in a presentation at China’s Northwestern Polytechnical University on Dec. 9, 2019. But in Thai hands the Gripen was a better long-range shooter.

Aviation website Alert 5 was the first to report on the presentation.

During the first day of mock combat, the J-11s and Gripens fought visual-range battles. The result was a lopsided victory for the Chinese air force. The powerful, twin-engine J-11s with their internal cannons and infrared-guided short-range missiles -- possibly PL-8s -- “shot down” 16 Gripens for zero losses.

In Thai service, the single-engine Gripen for close-range combat is armed with AIM-9 infrared-guided missiles and an internal cannon. It’s worth noting that the Gripen has a relatively poor thrust-to-weight ratio compared to many other fighter types. That limits its maneuverability in dogfights.


The Chinese pilots scored nine kills for one loss on day two. But as the war game continued, the Chinese pilots struggled to repeat their early successes.

The exercise shifted to beyond-visual-range engagements, where the Gripen armed with AIM-120 medium-range missiles proved to be the better fighter than the J-11 with its own medium-range missiles, possibly PL-12s.

On day three, the Thai pilots “shot down” 19 J-11s for a loss of three Gripens. Over the final three days of the war game, the Thais killed 22 Chinese jets and lost three of their own. The final tally for the exercise favored the Thai air force. The Gripens shot down 42 J-11s while the J-11s shot down just 34 Gripens.

Overall, 88 percent of the Thais’ kills occurred at a range of at least 19 miles, while the Chinese scored just 14 percent of their kills at the same range. The Gripens scored 10 kills at a distance of more than 31 miles. The J-11s scored no kills at this range.


“The Chinese pilots had poor situational awareness,” Alert 5 reported, citing the presentation. “Too much focus was on front of the aircraft rather than all around.” In phases of the war game where J-11s escorted other planes, there was a “lack of coordination.”

Chinese pilots “were not experienced in avoiding missile shots,” Alert 5 continued. “Their responses were too mechanical and [they] could not judge correctly the evasive techniques for missiles with different ranges.”



Beijing knows its pilots need better training. Around 2005 the Chinese air force began organizing realistic aerial war games in the vein of the U.S. Air Force’s Red Flag exercises. But these training events have yet to produce skilled pilots who are capable of fully exploiting the best Chinese-made warplanes.

"Numerous professional articles and speeches by high-ranking Chinese officers indicate the [Chinese air force] does not believe that its past training practices prepared its pilots and other per­sonnel for actual combat,” the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency explained in its January 2019 report on the Chinese military. “Unrealistic training manifested itself in multiple ways that hin­dered the [Chinese air arm]’s air-combat capabilities."


The Chinese military "recognizes that a gap exists between the skills of its pilots and those in 'the air forces of powerful nations," the DIA continued in its report. "To address training weak­nesses, [a former air force] commander said that when the [air force] trains, it must 'train for battle' instead of 'doing things for show…[or] going through the motions.'"

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 22 Jan 2020 00:13

Indranil wrote:Chinese penetration into the defence markets of African, South American and South east Asian countries is grossly underestimated. 8000 Mig-21s and nearly 3000 F-5s have retired or at the brink of retirement. How many countries have the wherewithal to replace them with $100-$300 million fighter jets?



$100-$300 Million aircraft aren't the only game in town, and neither are just new fighters. There are plenty of designs at a much lower cost (and capability) across the various needs. Yes manyof them are Chinese, but there are also Russian, European, South Korean and even the US with both new and used aircraft..Chinese aircraft (and not just manned) will likely pick up orders here and so will others..but that doesn't really compete with the T-7. The T-7 program will likely produce upwards of 700 aircraft over its lifetime but very little of those export orders will be in direct competition with Chinese aircraft..these will mostly be with nations who want the highest end capability currently available, and an aircraft to flex experienced pilots on. When a combat version of it is created..it will likely be for those who operate other western systems, operate the trainer and want a combat variant, or who want to integrate with western (US/NATO etc) systems but can't afford higher end fighters.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8128
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby brar_w » 27 Jan 2020 05:58

Estimating the Arms Sales of Chinese Companies (SIPRI)


Quantitative research on the finances of the Chinese arms industry has been limited by the scarcity of available data. A scoping study to estimate the financial value of the arms sales of companies in the Chinese arms industry—using a new methodology—found information on four companies: the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the China Electronics Technology Group Corporation (CETC), the China South Industries Group Corporation (CSGC) and the China North Industries Group Corporation (NORINCO). These four companies cover three main sectors of conventional arms production: aircraft, electronics and land systems.

The estimates suggest that China is the second-largest arms producer in the world, behind the United States and ahead of Russia. All four of the profiled companies would be ranked among the 20 largest arms-producing and military services companies globally in 2017, with three—AVIC, NORINCO and CETC—in the top 10. The new methodology improves the understanding of the structure, size and evolution of the global arms industry.

Vamsee
BRFite
Posts: 544
Joined: 16 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Vamsee » 28 Jan 2020 01:42

(Only part of this report is available for non-premium users. But looks like they are struggling with engine technology)
--Vamsee
========================

Chinese military jet engine production plans exposed

Turning to the data unveiled, no more than five WS15 jet engines, which power the J-20 stealth fighter, will be produced annually from 2020-26. The data also listed a lower-end conservative production rate of three engines per annum if the target of five cannot be attained.

This will mean the J-20 will have to continue relying on Russian Saturn AL-31F M2 engines for the foreseeable future.

The same production figures of five units yearly apply to WS15 engines for the FC-31 export-oriented fighter.

Moving to larger aircraft, the WS18 engine is an indigenous powerplant for the H-6K bomber and Y-20 transport aircraft. Significantly, the filing revealed that R&D had run into serious difficulties, and progress is partially suspended while the company develops new materials and alloys for it.


Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2174
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Postby Vivek K » 28 Jan 2020 02:23

brar_w wrote:
Indranil wrote:Chinese penetration into the defence markets of African, South American and South east Asian countries is grossly underestimated. 8000 Mig-21s and nearly 3000 F-5s have retired or at the brink of retirement. How many countries have the wherewithal to replace them with $100-$300 million fighter jets?



$100-$300 Million aircraft aren't the only game in town, and neither are just new fighters. There are plenty of designs at a much lower cost (and capability) across the various needs. Yes manyof them are Chinese, but there are also Russian, European, South Korean and even the US with both new and used aircraft..Chinese aircraft (and not just manned) will likely pick up orders here and so will others..but that doesn't really compete with the T-7. The T-7 program will likely produce upwards of 700 aircraft over its lifetime but very little of those export orders will be in direct competition with Chinese aircraft..these will mostly be with nations who want the highest end capability currently available, and an aircraft to flex experienced pilots on. When a combat version of it is created..it will likely be for those who operate other western systems, operate the trainer and want a combat variant, or who want to integrate with western (US/NATO etc) systems but can't afford higher end fighters.

By not allowing local MIC to come up - India will be a non-player in this large market where LCA light (perhaps with Kaveri), IJT, HTT-40 could have grabbed some sales.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests