Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 04:15

ArjunPandit wrote:
Karan M wrote:Can you tell me one time they crossed into TSP and did what we have done twice? Even the OBL raid was carefully choreographed to avoid an open fight with the TSP guys.
Main thing is their eastern borders are not that protected

I think nam is talking about this
Salala Attack

I know about that attack nam is referencing and I was one of the guys who posted the book excerpts on BRF. You can search for it. It was touch and go and the US actually used bombers to stop the attack before it got to the troops.

The bigger point is for all the tough talk and being on the receiving end of such attacks, the US did not n-bomb TSP or even bomb it with any proper force. They gave it more billions in aid. What a farce. And this is the policy we should emulate? Giving jiziya? Stop complaining for once and try to see what the Govt is doing.

Buy the book on surgical strikes and see how the Govt worked to confuse TSP before the strikes occurred and went about it methodically.

We are seeing a new policy in action.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 04:23

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/2016-su ... ri-attacks

Shiv Aroor and Rahul Singh’s India’s Most Fearless: True Stories of Modern Military Heroes takes us through the journey of extraordinary courage and grit of the country’s armed forces.

As blanket coverage of the Uri attack took over television news and the internet on the morning of 18 September, a chill descended upon India’s Raisina Hill in Delhi. Emergency meetings were held in the most secret ‘war rooms’ of the security establishment, one of them presided over by Prime Minister Narendra Modi along with National Security Adviser Ajit Doval.

It was at this meeting that the Indian leadership secretly took two major decisions: (1) the Indian military would take the fight to the enemy this time to deliver a brutal response to the Uri attack; (2) the country’s ministers, including Modi himself, would play their parts to perpetuate and amplify India’s reputation for inaction until such a time when the response had been delivered. An elaborate, carefully crafted political masquerade would thus begin the following morning.

The next morning, as they began their journey to Srinagar, things were already in motion in Delhi. The first minister to make a statement was former Army Chief, General V K Singh, who, after the traditional condemnations, made a remarkably generous appeal in the circumstances — he said that India could not act on emotion. It would be a critical spark to the success of the masquerade, followed shortly thereafter by Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar, who declared that the sacrifice of the Uri soldiers would not go in vain. Speaking to the Army in Srinagar, Parrikar sounded a familiar note, asking the Army to take ‘firm action’, but not specifying what such action needed to be. This was standard-issue Bharat Sarkaar (Indian Government) response after a terror attack.

However, to ensure that the government’s messaging was not so measured as to rouse suspicion, junior ministers were tasked with adding some fire to the proceedings. That crucial bit was deftly served up by Manohar Parrikar’s junior minister, Subhash Bhamre, who declared that the time had come ‘to hit back’.

Two more top-level meetings took place on 19 September — one chaired by Home Minister Rajnath Singh, who had cancelled his visit to Russia, and the other by Prime Minister Modi at the PMO. Army Chief Gen Dalbir Singh, who had dashed to the Kashmir Valley just hours after the previous day’s attack, had been conveyed the government’s clear political directive. He arrived in Srinagar with the green signal that the SF had so far only ever dreamt about: permission to plan and execute a retaliatory strike with the government’s full backing.

Over the next 24 hours, the Army would draw up a devastating revenge plan, with options for the government leadership to choose from.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 04:25

So this is now increasingly the policy. The GOI is giving the IA a free hand to provide India retaliation options. The IA comes up with them, GOI greenlights them. The more such actions occur, the more our decision makers get used to them.

The TSP guys will definitely now try to do a terror strike in India & ratchet up in J&K.

But guess what, they have already done that and are already trying to do so.

The shoe is on the other foot. They have pretty much been murderous throughout, it was us who kept silent out of farcical "secularism", "what will the world say", "n-war" and similar rubbish.

Guess what, we just did two strikes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 04:29

And IA is anything but stupid. Why will they only limit themselves to SF, if the re-equipping continues. Is there some special mark on the ULH 155mms that they can't be airlifted to J&K and used to hammer TSP outposts?
Is there some special rule in place that Ghatak guys familiar with the local terrain can't deal with any TSP outposts which provide covering fire to infiltrators?
Yes, the war got hotter but it was always hot in J&K, and I bet during all these days of Modi sarkar, day in and night out, ISI has been trying to rain attacks. They wont stop because we turn the other cheek, now at least we are establishing a new deterrence.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 28 Dec 2017 04:50

We should be ready for a limited war over Kashmir. If there is any big terrorist attacks then India will be justified to cross LoC and use cold start with 48 HR mobilisation to cross LOC at multiple places and blast Hafiz Saeed. I will not fear nbum threat of isloo as I don't think they will have guts to use it and make Pakistan perish. It is only 300 miles wide so I don't expect war to lar more than a month and Puke army annihilated. NoKo will pukes naah as they don't have balls to fight.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 28 Dec 2017 05:05

In addition to three admitted dead by porkis who per them were caused by "ghost" non state actors, two more terroistan special forces operators (SSG/ SSG-Navy) were eliminated by IA before 26th itself:

1) Shah Faisal , SSG-N, Sniper
2) Hawaldar Yasin, SSG

From Here :

1) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DSC3znqV4AY1GAM.jpg
2) https://twitter.com/Nexoft001/status/945597025873047552

But I still maintain, these men do not mean anything to them these shameless will abandon their dead and will not accept anything, unless POK is taken by slow salami slices, 10km at a time.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 28 Dec 2017 07:39

We have decided to respond in the same coin, and quickly," a senior army officer sitting in the Army Headquarters told THE WEEK,

Trouble with this is that the Pakis can do their calculations: Kill 3 Indian soldiers, lose 3 useless cannon-fodder who are on punishment assignments to the lower-level border posts which get hit by Indian fire.

There is a serious problem in Dilli where they hold the LOC to be sacred. What is the point of this? It's called the Line of CONTROL, it is not a recognized international border. It is the line of control where the terrorist goat-lovers hold the posts in the Indian state of J&K. If tomorrow India pushes 10km into POK, that will be the new Line of Control, and Pakis will have to scramble to build new defensive posts.

Pakis need to see that every attack by them will be used as an EXCUSE by the Indians, to push them back further and further. Sure, this means a battalion-level attack with air cover to "rationalize" the LOC each time the Paki make another terrorist attack. At the end of each year, Pakis need to see that they are having to build new Border Posts deeper and deeper into POK, and then down into Pakjab. Let them try explaining that to their sponsors. What are they going to do, launch a full-scale attack? That would be an excuse for tea at RYK.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 28 Dec 2017 08:12

Karan M wrote:This is the new "normal" and it is historic, because it shows the surgical strikes were not a one off. But now, more and more, its policy.

Thank you for capturing this so well.

I also said the same two months after the surgical strikes.
Once pakistan admitted that it was a figment of indian imagination , I said bravo here lies our opportunity to make this a norm.

Because Pakistan will not admit that we crossed, because if they do , they must retaliate and if they do , then it could go nuclear because they have first use. Therefore lets strike and counter strike.

To put some perspective, during the early 90s.
Anything over 1000 rounds of Medium Machine Gun at certain places was sanctioned by GOC.

Who do you think sanctioned this, nope not the PM.
Today was de-centralised that crossing of border to local commanders.

Karan is quite right. Welcome to the new age.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 28 Dec 2017 08:25

I hope we are proactive here as well. Just as we scored 200+ in Kashmir through good intelligence inputs, wish we get the same from other side of LoC and we proactively take them out. Seems to me there's plenty of dissent in people there, we can use that as our intelligence.
BTW Have we received those 10 armed Israeli UAVs yet.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2017 08:44

Bakis always claim that hot war in cashmere will go nukular in 5 mins. Baki pasand and cheeni supported jarnails & #mediapimps across the globe have bought in that line for their own reasons.

How do you break through this conundrum? It is called an abstract "salami slicing". Basically for every attack there is a counter-attack and very slowly escalating. Reports now suggest that 8 baki pigs have died. Next time it should be a little more and a little more and a little more. A death by 1000s of cuts, and all under nukular cover. At what point will they declare that their nukular threshold is crossed? It *definitely* is not crossed now. Next up maybe increase the baki body count and destroy several posts. Next up destroy supporting infrastructure around those posts. Next up make bakis abandon the post and withdraw a little bit.

Bakis are entering into a liquid oxygen chamber.

And a lesson on geo-politics. In US of A, all talk is about tax or how bad or good or confusing it is. Nobody is bothered about cashmere.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 28 Dec 2017 09:02

disha wrote:Bakis always claim that hot war in cashmere will go nukular in 5 mins. Baki pasand and cheeni supported jarnails & #mediapimps across the globe have bought in that line for their own reasons.

How do you break through this conundrum? It is called an abstract "salami slicing". Basically for every attack there is a counter-attack and very slowly escalating. Reports now suggest that 8 baki pigs have died. Next time it should be a little more and a little more and a little more. A death by 1000s of cuts, and all under nukular cover. At what point will they declare that their nukular threshold is crossed? It *definitely* is not crossed now. Next up maybe increase the baki body count and destroy several posts. Next up destroy supporting infrastructure around those posts. Next up make bakis abandon the post and withdraw a little bit.

Bakis are entering into a liquid oxygen chamber.

And a lesson on geo-politics. In US of A, all talk is about tax or how bad or good or confusing it is. Nobody is bothered about cashmere.

Aren't you are assuming two things here:
1. Pakistan hopes to prevail in their sub-conventional conflict.
2. Attrition in terms of losing land features or the lives of their ORs at the border is painful enough to make them desist.

IMO, Pakistan realizes now that they will not be able to prevail in their sub-conventional war. They have now changed focus to keeping the narrative of their conflict alive. This narrative help PakMil in the following ways:
a. This narrative, that they are bravely resisting the 'occupation' of Kashmir by 7 trillion Bharti forces by way of jihad, helps them keep the local green chaps in line.
b. This narrative justifies the relative importance of PakMil in the state of affairs within the Pakistani polity.
c. Lastly, it keeps alive the hopes of the Jihadi die-hards, that at an opportune moment when India if week, perhaps due to internal religious strife, they will be able to attack.

As for point (2), I think neither losing slices at the LoC, nor losing OR lives at the border will work as in the minds of Pak elite, their lives simply do not matter. Pak state is not an ordinary state, with the welfare of its people foremost, rather it is a citadel of Islamism, found to serve Allah.

The only thing that will change this equation is replying to a terror spectacular by spectacular operations of our own deep within Pakistan (and other SAARC countries), that destroy the pak mil narrative that they are relevant to the conflict, can resist Indians, can defend ordinary Pakistanis. Other aspects will need effective psychological warfare techniques.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Dec 2017 09:16

nam wrote:
While this response time is a commendable improvement, we should get out of the equal-equal warfare mode as its just a war of attrition. So, a campaign could be conducted to align the LoC that make their cross border raids initiative extremely difficult. The Indian side which always asks for useful goals etc., to act can use this, then comes dominating the CPEC route.
There is no way to seal the LoC. Google Earth 3d mode showed me the reality. The LoC is crazy. Thousands of Mountains & valleys and thick forest.

It is up to IA how to respond to an incident. It it does want to to, there is nothing we chattering class can do, other than blaming GoI.

I wish we could just go out and do some kranti in Pakistan but I guess the local commander will pick a fight where he is sure of victory. He won't start a fight which he cannot end on his terms. A broad front assault requiring multi unit action will require political approval for sure as there are possible escalation scenarios.

disha · Post by **disha** » 28 Dec 2017 09:25

^Sudeep'ji., you are reminding me of the hollywood movies where the protagonist even when beaten to pulp rises up again & again. Bakis may think that they are heroes fighting the global jihad. And will continue on forever.

That is not true in real world.

Let them have whatever narrative or pindi chana they want for their own momeens. They have narratives for 47, 65 and 71. They can have as many narratives they want, the more glorious and more delusional the better.

And for BakMil to own the state of affairs in bakistani policy, they do not require any justification. Based on the pindi chana fart and its parfum, they will come up with a justification. Action by desis at LOC or not, it does not matter. They justified throwing away mujibir in 70s itself, so what's new?

---

My point is simple, keep on doing opportune strikes and slowly calibrate the strikes upward. Basically a graduated strike rate. Bakis have to justify which strike actually crossed their line to go nukular. My bet is that they are nukular nood (they do not have the missile tech to deliver nuke) and their airforce is pretty much a baki fizzleya. So let their baki fauj gain control of their "polity" (or kabila) and let them justify when to go for a nukular war.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 28 Dec 2017 10:43

nam wrote: The biggest issue with capturing large part of pakiland is, what do we do with ... Pakis who come along with it!

If we capture Lahore, I am pretty sure the whole of Pakistan will stream into the city overnight. Which paki will not like to be Indian. 10 times more GDP, no cavity search, "secular parties" etc... Indian tax payers will then have to feed these freeloaders for their life.

We have trouble hunting 3 mil illegal Bangladeshi. imagine if their western brothers join in..

This is the lot which consider Indian medical visa as their birthright.

It is much simpler if we have the objective, in a short conventional war, to destroy Lahore's economic potential - which we can do by advancing
a couple of km across the IB and bring Lahore within artillery range (its 4 Corps HQ inside the city is a legitimate target). The same with Sailkot.
Unsure of our intentions, Pak army will have to deploy to defend both cities and fight a battle of attrition on their soil, which they can only lose.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 11:59

I reiterate that we have to calibrate our repsonse many notches higher and more importantly a long term end game has to be clearly agreed by the political leadership. I don't want to spend too much time on the second because that's not the focus of this thread but I do want to say that we must not buy the nuclear blackmail and second existence of Pak in its current form is detrimental not only to us but to this entire planet - flora and fauna included. But this requires serious national will. In a country where an ex PM who made big statements about terror post 26/11 actively attends the enemy's biryani parties to plot the downfall of the current government, and is ably joined by an ex VP do expect that will? . So I agree with Karan let's not rant here. Twitter the ex PM and VP , raise these issues in various media etc.

Having said that lets spend some time on the first. Calibrate our response and also look at offensive actions. The first thing is to understand the situation - they infiltraye ,we patrol to block the infiltration and they use BAT teams to come inside and attack our patrols. They have excellent intelligence , are hardening their local defences too. So what can we logically do in the local tactical space. The first thing is we on BR need to realise that arty assaults are not always effective against hardened defences. And to have any deterent value our fire assaults have to inflict serious officer casualties. I firmly believe this. But their officers don't lead upfront so we will have to attack their BN HQ. In this case the Baloch units HQ needs to be destroyed ideally when the CO and his staff are in it. I wonder where this HQ is - possibly at least a few km from LC? So we need near real time intel we also need a whole spectrum of options including arty and possibly air power. But that requires political sanction. We also need to harden out defences to protect against counter attacks from them. Gen Hasnain points this out in his article 'nation will get defence it pays for '.

So local brigade commamder can only make shallow local attacks and we'll done to him for that and we'll done to govt for decentralising that and giving the strong precedence for it. But these will not be effective deterrents. I think we should harden out defences asap, get NVG and other basic infantry equipment and launch regular offensive actions across a very wide frontage. If options don't exist to take out the Baloch units HQ why not take out a unit at another sector even in a different div or corps area. Wherever we can inflict officer casualties we should.

So chief should order all his formations across the LC to proactively take out a few officers in local attacks. And he should lobby government to let him do this across IB also. This should be tried and I think we will see some good results

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Dec 2017 12:34

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I reiterate that we have to calibrate our repsonse many notches higher and more importantly a long term end game has to be clearly agreed by the political leadership. I don't want to spend too much time on the second because that's not the focus of this thread but I do want to say that we must not buy the nuclear blackmail and second existence of Pak in its current form is detrimental not only to us but to this entire planet - flora and fauna included. But this requires serious national will. In a country where an ex PM who made big statements about terror post 26/11 actively attends the enemy's biryani parties to plot the downfall of the current government, and is ably joined by an ex VP do expect that will? . So I agree with Karan let's not rant here. Twitter the ex PM and VP , raise these issues in various media etc.

Having said that lets spend some time on the first. Calibrate our response and also look at offensive actions. The first thing is to understand the situation - they infiltraye ,we patrol to block the infiltration and they use BAT teams to come inside and attack our patrols. They have excellent intelligence , are hardening their local defences too. So what can we logically do in the local tactical space. The first thing is we on BR need to realise that arty assaults are not always effective against hardened defences. And to have any deterent value our fire assaults have to inflict serious officer casualties. I firmly believe this. But their officers don't lead upfront so we will have to attack their BN HQ. In this case the Baloch units HQ needs to be destroyed ideally when the CO and his staff are in it. I wonder where this HQ is - possibly at least a few km from LC? So we need near real time intel we also need a whole spectrum of options including arty and possibly air power. But that requires political sanction. We also need to harden out defences to protect against counter attacks from them. Gen Hasnain points this out in his article 'nation will get defence it pays for '.

So local brigade commamder can only make shallow local attacks and we'll done to him for that and we'll done to govt for decentralising that and giving the strong precedence for it. But these will not be effective deterrents. I think we should harden out defences asap, get NVG and other basic infantry equipment and launch regular offensive actions across a very wide frontage. If options don't exist to take out the Baloch units HQ why not take out a unit at another sector even in a different div or corps area. Wherever we can inflict officer casualties we should.

So chief should order all his formations across the LC to proactively take out a few officers in local attacks. And he should lobby government to let him do this across IB also. This should be tried and I think we will see some good results

+1008. Couldn't agree more.

While things look improving on the military side, the GOI is still doing nothing significant on economic or geo-political side. We cannot even take away MFN status or declare pakis a Terrorist country. GOI is happy in winning small games on geopolitical level. If we choke all points simultaneously, pakis will come to knees in no time. But it almost feels like GOI, whoever might be sitting there, doesn't want any permanent solution to the situation and is more than happy to keep status quo, however skewed it might be for us.

Our response needs to be far more comprehensive.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Dec 2017 12:52

JayS, MFN is a nomenclature. I am actually impressed with what GOI has been doing without catching attention. Actions and speeches in UN, The playing up of Balochistan, absolute block of wood on CPEC cooperation, Afghan trade corridors by Air and by Iran, KBY case in ICJ and some more.

I do not say I understand all the advantages this MFN and medical visa outreach provides to the GOI but the Govt is surely working. The internal handling of J&K, specially using J&K police in countering separatists is commendable achievement. NIA raids on Hurriyats and exposing the links to Pakistan are also part of this.

I wish I could see the end point of these actions, but I would disagree with anyone saying we are status quoist on this front these days. In fact just a couple of days ago I was arguing how the Status Quo has been changed viz Kashmir and Pakistan since May 2014. My understanding is that the present GOI will act but will never go "full monty". They are working to keep everything below threshhold while endeavouring to push the threshhold backwards in slow steps.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 28 Dec 2017 12:59

Declaring Pakistan a terrorist nation might satisfy a few hawks but we gain nothing concrete from it. If we declare it a terrorist nation, then we have to stop trade. Remember, it is india that benefits from flooding paki market with our cheap products. We earn valuable forex as well. Trade is a part of economic warfare on pakistan. Chanakya neeti says never do anything that doesn't benefit you in some way. Declaring pak as terrorist nation is such a measure which will only tie up our hands.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 28 Dec 2017 13:09

Akshay Kapoor wrote:In this case the Baloch units HQ needs to be destroyed ideally when the CO and his staff are in it. I wonder where this HQ is - possibly at least a few km from LC? So we need near real time intel we also need a whole spectrum of options including arty and possibly air power.

Sir, quite right that the PA officer corps should feel unsafe because the OR are simply cannon fodder to them. But even if their officers are not caught in the fire assault, surely the use of area weapons to destroy the infrastructure of a Bn HQ or barracks will send a stronger message than shallow actions. This to be followed up with cross-border raids as and when we choose, just when we feel like it. I think the big change has to be that our polity should be prepared for own casualties and that all raids may not be successful. So we should be prepared for reverses and simply accept it as part of a larger game-plan that will yield dividends years down the line. Anyway we are taking casualties, its better that its taken in offensive action.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 28 Dec 2017 13:25

Even burning cannon fodder will bring a response slowly but surely. TSP doesn't have an endless supply of idiots willing to die. Their media is also quite critical of army and when they keep highlighting the burning fodder, then TSP army will have to answer. At the very least, it will break the shining inage of army that is brandished in the minds of their populace. That in itself is a win.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Dec 2017 13:40

If you have an cockroach infestation in your home - squashing them with a chappal every time you see one out in the open is not going to get rid of the infestation. Yes chasing the little critters might give you an adrenalin rush and seeing the crushed body of the roach might give a great sense of victory. But no matter how many you kill they will always be more the next day. We have been playing this tit-for-tat game with the pakies on the LoC for 30 years. Every few months there is an outrage (with many

posts in BRF), followed by a 'mou tor jawab' with exclusive what-really-happened-behind-the-scenes stories from some journos and leaked footage on Times Now of some paki bunkers getting pulverized (and jubilant

posts on BRF). On a tactical level we are just playing ping-pong, the 'mou tor jawab' business is just for short term gratification.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 13:48

Anoop wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:In this case the Baloch units HQ needs to be destroyed ideally when the CO and his staff are in it. I wonder where this HQ is - possibly at least a few km from LC? So we need near real time intel we also need a whole spectrum of options including arty and possibly air power.
Sir, quite right that the PA officer corps should feel unsafe because the OR are simply cannon fodder to them. But even if their officers are not caught in the fire assault, surely the use of area weapons to destroy the infrastructure of a Bn HQ or barracks will send a stronger message than shallow actions. This to be followed up with cross-border raids as and when we choose, just when we feel like it. I think the big change has to be that our polity should be prepared for own casualties and that all raids may not be successful. So we should be prepared for reverses and simply accept it as part of a larger game-plan that will yield dividends years down the line. Anyway we are taking casualties, its better that its taken in offensive action.

All depends on the tactical situation , terrain and how hardened their defences are. Our defences are not hardened so we really need to do that asap. I think the so called ceasefire is dead a long time ago so we must bring all weapons including arty and rocket arty back into the mix. I agree we are taking casualties anyway so going up the matrix of escalation is good and is the only sane choice. We should also attack often along LC to destroy positions and realign LC in our favour wherever needed.

I agree with JayS that all elements of national power need to be used. I wonder what we are doing on the intelligence front. R&AW was defanged by Gujral and subsequently it's ops given away by Vajpayee. I really hope Doval ji KC is reviving it. Nothing replaces solid human intelligence. I recommend a study of R&AW ops. They have done a very good job when properly lead and empowered. Sadly they have been consciously degraded by subsequent politicians. But I have hope now. On gnay note do read Shiv Aroors book on India's hero's. The deception plan put in by govt for surgical strikes was masterful.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 28 Dec 2017 14:04

Sir,

What does hardening of a Bn HQ mean in actual terms? Underground bunkers? I assume that at the HQ there will be daily PT drills, sports etc at fairly predictable times. What about using rocket arty to catch soldiers out in the open? And in return, how can we harden our own defences to protect against similar retaliation? Would an option be effective CB fire, so that we can take away their retaliation options?

Yes, I read Shiv Aroor's book it was very interesting. On a related note, I saw his program on this cross-LoC strike where a Pakistani 'defence analyst' Cheema was on. It was quite ludicrous to hear this Cheema guy, at least those parts that were not drowned out in the cross-talk or feed interruptions. It goes to show that the pain has to be felt in the inner corridors of power before Pakistani behavior changes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 14:09

Highlighting the precise points. There is a clear movement to put constant pressure on TSP without making it the usual BBC-NYT wailfest and by the other cockroaches who tacitly support them.
Keep the pot on the boil without letting it boil over.

deejay wrote:JayS, MFN is a nomenclature. I am actually impressed with what GOI has been doing without catching attention. Actions and speeches in UN, The playing up of Balochistan, absolute block of wood on CPEC cooperation, Afghan trade corridors by Air and by Iran, KBY case in ICJ and some more.[/b

I do not say I understand all the advantages this MFN and medical visa outreach provides to the GOI but the Govt is surely working. The internal handling of J&K, specially using J&K police in countering separatists is commendable achievement. NIA raids on Hurriyats and exposing the links to Pakistan are also part of this.

I wish I could see the end point of these actions, but I would disagree with anyone saying we are status quoist on this front these days. In fact just a couple of days ago I was arguing how the Status Quo has been changed viz Kashmir and Pakistan since May 2014. My understanding is that the present GOI will act but will never go "full monty". They are working to keep everything below threshhold while endeavouring to push the threshhold backwards in slow steps.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 14:14

No, this is NOT the tit-for-tat game at the LOC.
This is open cross border ops openly messaged by a confident India showing a big middle finger to TSP and all those who think India better be a good mannered boy. And its setting a new precedent for more actions on the same line and steadily enhancing our capabilities to inflict pain on TSP.

abhik wrote:If you have an cockroach infestation in your home - squashing them with a chappal every time you see one out in the open is not going to get rid of the infestation. Yes chasing the little critters might give you an adrenalin rush and seeing the crushed body of the roach might give a great sense of victory. But no matter how many you kill they will always be more the next day. We have been playing this tit-for-tat game with the pakies on the LoC for 30 years. Every few months there is an outrage (with many posts in BRF), followed by a 'mou tor jawab' with exclusive what-really-happened-behind-the-scenes stories from some journos and leaked footage on Times Now of some paki bunkers getting pulverized (and jubilant posts on BRF). On a tactical level we are just playing ping-pong, the 'mou tor jawab' business is just for short term gratification.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 14:27

Anoop wrote:Sir,

What does hardening of a Bn HQ mean in actual terms? Underground bunkers? I assume that at the HQ there will be daily PT drills, sports etc at fairly predictable times. What about using rocket arty to catch soldiers out in the open? And in return, how can we harden our own defences to protect against similar retaliation? Would an option be effective CB fire, so that we can take away their retaliation options?

Yes, I read Shiv Aroor's book it was very interesting. On a related note, I saw his program on this cross-LoC strike where a Pakistani 'defence analyst' Cheema was on. It was quite ludicrous to hear this Cheema guy, at least those parts that were not drowned out in the cross-talk or feed interruptions. It goes to show that the pain has to be felt in the inner corridors of power before Pakistani behavior changes.

It could be bunkers, weapons emplacements using pillboxes , siting weapons in a cave or the side of a rock etc. I doubt Pak units in operations areas would do PT !!

We need similar things on our side. Conditions are pretty poor on our side. Do Read Gen Hasnains article ‘country will get the security it its for ‘and link it here as well pls. He explains things well.

Anoop, many things can be done to attack Pak from a purely tactical perspective. I suggested one optio - go for officers across sectors. But for what you suggest politics approval is necessary because of the depth the attack needs to go in (the HQ will not be just 500 mts from LC) , the scale and the potential for escalation. Or perhaps an aggressive Div Commander can attack a coy position without approval. The current environment is certainly more conducive to it than for many years.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 14:28

Karan M wrote:No, this is NOT the tit-for-tat game at the LOC.
This is open cross border ops openly messaged by a confident India showing a big middle finger to TSP and all those who think India better be a good mannered boy. And its setting a new precedent for more actions on the same line and steadily enhancing our capabilities to inflict pain on TSP.

abhik wrote:If you have an cockroach infestation in your home - squashing them with a chappal every time you see one out in the open is not going to get rid of the infestation. Yes chasing the little critters might give you an adrenalin rush and seeing the crushed body of the roach might give a great sense of victory. But no matter how many you kill they will always be more the next day. We have been playing this tit-for-tat game with the pakies on the LoC for 30 years. Every few months there is an outrage (with many posts in BRF), followed by a 'mou tor jawab' with exclusive what-really-happened-behind-the-scenes stories from some journos and leaked footage on Times Now of some paki bunkers getting pulverized (and jubilant posts on BRF). On a tactical level we are just playing ping-pong, the 'mou tor jawab' business is just for short term gratification.

Very true. Guys the messaging and ownership of the action is crucial. But at the same time we have just taken the first step. Many more need to be taken and the strategic objective of eliminating this problem needs to be looked at.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 28 Dec 2017 14:38

India today article claims a major rank officer was targeted in the raid along with three soldiers, army wanted this to be done ASAP as porkis were not expecting such quick response :

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 18483.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 14:49

here is the big deal.

Troops cross LoC, surround enemy, blast IED and shoot targets in a flash; local units authorised to carry out such attacks if needed.

A small team of an infantry battalion deployed in the Poonch sector crossed over into PoK and placed improvised explosive devices (IEDs) for the enemy troops coming to patrol in the area which was a temporary post and was close to a water source, sources told Mail Today.

After waiting for some time, the Pakistani troops walking in the area triggered a massive IED explosion which stunned them for a few seconds.

Waiting for the Pakistanis to fall in their trap, the army commandos opened a barrage of fire with small arms which resulted in the instant death of three Pakistani personnel of 59 Baloch regiment while another died later because of injuries, the sources said.

The Pakistan fatalities include one major-rank officer and three soldiers named Sajjad, Abdul Rehman and Mohammad Usman, they added.

The operation came over a year after India's Para Special Forces had crossed over into Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir to destroy terrorist launch pads there.

Sources said the latest raid was carried out by the local brigade commander but the go-ahead had come from the topmost level of the army headquarters.

"The units involved in the operation had informed the headquarters that they were planning an operation on ground which would be carried out soon. The army headquarters in return instructed them to do it swiftly as Pakistanis would not be expecting a retaliatory action so soon by the Indian army," the sources said.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 14:54

If this article is correct then a few things important to note =

1. Surprise was crucial and was achieved with very quick action.

2. The tactics were quite innovative - ied was the best part.

3. Approval was still sought from AHQ. And reading between the lines it does seem that orders from govt are to react as needed but not proactive offensives. This needs to change.

4. Most of the initiate was taken by Brig Cmdr. Cohesive strategy to go on offensive still does not exist. See point 3.

I think as some posters mentioned it’s definitely not stays quo and compared to past a very big shift. This should never be forgotten. But in the big picture much more needs to be done. I strongly feel that a big reset is needed. Lastly even if we want to be very calibrated thresholds can be pushed back much more and that we are still being too cautious.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 14:56

Absolutely, i see this as the first step in building a new politico mil relationship beyond the craven babucracy.

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:No, this is NOT the tit-for-tat game at the LOC.
This is open cross border ops openly messaged by a confident India showing a big middle finger to TSP and all those who think India better be a good mannered boy. And its setting a new precedent for more actions on the same line and steadily enhancing our capabilities to inflict pain on TSP.

Very true. Guys the messaging and ownership of the action is crucial. But at the same time we have just taken the first step. Many more need to be taken and the strategic objective of eliminating this problem needs to be looked at.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 14:58

I predict this will be next step. Proactive attacks.

3. Approval was still sought from AHQ. And reading between the lines it does seem that orders from govt are to react as needed but not proactive offensives. This needs to change.

4. Most of the initiate was taken by Brig Cmdr. Cohesive strategy to go on offensive still does not exist. See point 3.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 14:59

Good point re building trust between army and politics bypassing babucracy. I hadn’t thought of that. If that is indeed achieved then this is a BIG BIG thinh and will have implications for long term national security and indeed survival. May you be right.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 28 Dec 2017 15:03

Karan M wrote:here is the big deal.

Troops cross LoC, surround enemy, blast IED and shoot targets in a flash; local units authorised to carry out such attacks if needed.

A small team of an infantry battalion deployed in the Poonch sector crossed over into PoK and placed improvised explosive devices (IEDs) for the enemy troops coming to patrol in the area which was a temporary post and was close to a water source, sources told Mail Today.

After waiting for some time, the Pakistani troops walking in the area triggered a massive IED explosion which stunned them for a few seconds.

Waiting for the Pakistanis to fall in their trap, the army commandos opened a barrage of fire with small arms which resulted in the instant death of three Pakistani personnel of 59 Baloch regiment while another died later because of injuries, the sources said.

The Pakistan fatalities include one major-rank officer and three soldiers named Sajjad, Abdul Rehman and Mohammad Usman, they added.

The operation came over a year after India's Para Special Forces had crossed over into Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir to destroy terrorist launch pads there.

Sources said the latest raid was carried out by the local brigade commander but the go-ahead had come from the topmost level of the army headquarters.

"The units involved in the operation had informed the headquarters that they were planning an operation on ground which would be carried out soon. The army headquarters in return instructed them to do it swiftly as Pakistanis would not be expecting a retaliatory action so soon by the Indian army," the sources said.

One big change. Brig sahab will probably become Major Gen for this. In the past it could have been a career limiting move.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 28 Dec 2017 15:32

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/my-hq-w ... -live-with

Sir, linked the relevant article here.

I want to follow up on a point you raised viz. that Pak troops would not be doing PT in operational areas. My idea about what a Bn HQ is is from movies like Lakshya which shows PT, troop barracks etc. I realize that these will be a few kms deep into PoK, but is this not a trypical arrangement along the LoC? I also realize that with the COIN deployment on our side, things like ROP, anti infiltration patrols, ambush laying, fence repair duties etc, there is no time for PT and games. But on the Pak side, with no such compulsions, what is life like, I wonder.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 28 Dec 2017 15:39

Re military political relationship, success begets support. But if a raid goes awry and Indian soldiers are captured on PoK soil, causing a diplomatic and political fallout that will be a truer test of political support. I will be happy to ve proven wrong.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 28 Dec 2017 15:39

nam wrote:
There is no way to seal the LoC. Google Earth 3d mode showed me the reality. The LoC is crazy. Thousands of Mountains & valleys and thick forest.

It is up to IA how to respond to an incident. It it does want to to, there is nothing we chattering class can do, other than blaming GoI.

If the Indian army processes the initiative and is the proactive party, then by default the onus to seal the border becomes a puki problem. Again, no retaliation should be expected from India as we need to be the aggressor in these matters. Leave the issues of retaliation and reaction to the pukis. Seize the initiative. Systematically destroy them and their posts. Border must be hot and expensive, both in numbers of casualties and the money they expend in defence.

In air defence, there is a tactic called lob pecking where you fly just low enough to avoid the enemies detection ability, ie radar warning receiver helps you identify the enemy's radar lob size. We need to do the reverse here. We need him to see us all day long and all day long deploy to react to our presence. He has cannon fodder and we have ammunition. Lets tango and see which one runs out first, his guts or our munitions.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 28 Dec 2017 15:42

Anoop wrote:Re military political relationship, success begets support. But if a raid goes awry and Indian soldiers are captured on PoK soil, causing a diplomatic and political fallout that will be a truer test of political support. I will be happy to ve proven wrong.

No troops need to cross the border, punish them remotely, primarily by artillery. It will been seen and heard a long way away. Everybody need to know what we are doing. It must be a very public punishment so all adjoining posts understand and know what awaits them.

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 28 Dec 2017 15:56

The system of permanent assets in terms of habitat and fighting infrastructure, to include hardened bunkers, weapon emplacements, trenches with measures to prevent collapse, living structures, lighting conductors, toilets and cooking facilities, all come under the generic head of operational works. This is different to the works budget which is used for infrastructure in the hinterland and peace stations. The budget for operational works is so limited that it will take another fifty years before our defenses at the LoC are sufficiently hardened.

I wish the various news channels that report from the front lines highlight these aspects also. Usually, they are simply chest thumping reports and that has its value. But it would be good to cover these aspects with some sensitivity, without embarrassing the host units. These reports can then form the nuclei for panel discussions with ex military personnel who can then be more forthcoming about the needs of the soldiers, since they have more credibility.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Dec 2017 16:09

Anoop wrote:Re military political relationship, success begets support. But if a raid goes awry and Indian soldiers are captured on PoK soil, causing a diplomatic and political fallout that will be a truer test of political support. I will be happy to ve proven wrong.

Anoop, that is the kind of thinking that has led to Indian troops hunkered in their bunkers all because of the "what if".
That scenario too should be considered by the Indian authorities and the IA will likely respond, yes it can happen & we signed up for this because we are dealing with complete turds who don't value life, so let us keep attacking them. The kulbhushan yadav case has not prevented us from attacking TSP soldiers. We cannot afford to let another IC-814 make us into a weeping group of crybabies either.
For this, the media should be effectively handled and any deliberate attempts to paralyze national will should be dealt with severely.