Army strikes terror camps in PoK

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ashishvikas
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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ashishvikas » 27 Dec 2017 10:18

Ruthless Strike Across LoC Signals India’s Eye-for-an-Eye Resolve
By Syed Ata Hasnain
December 26, 2017

https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/voic ... ssion=true

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Philip » 27 Dec 2017 13:01

This is the only medicine that the Pakis respect.A bayonet up the nether end,suffering large losses. We should also use arty and MBRLs like Smerch/Pinaka extensively,taking out items of opportunity.Every Paki military base is a terrorist haven,that should be India's stand as long as it mollycoddles the like of one H.Sayeed and his tribe of jihadis. It was a sick joke reading about an MP in P'ment saying that we should allow visas to moderate Pakis who are trying to strengthen democracy in that terrorist state!

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby UlanBatori » 27 Dec 2017 18:39

Wonder if it is possible to push the LOC 1 mile for each Indian soldier killed by terrorists. India needs to rent some B-52s to prepare the parking lots to set up the new fence. When the LOC reaches downtown Islamagood, perhaps they will get the message. Where is Cholaji?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Thakur_B » 27 Dec 2017 19:54

^^ I believe start of every season, all paki posts facing our posts should be razed to ground. Then let pakis spend money, resources and manpower rebuilding it and then raze it again. Let it happen 3-4 times a season and they will start shifting their posts farther and farther.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby nam » 27 Dec 2017 22:26

UlanBatori wrote:Wonder if it is possible to push the LOC 1 mile for each Indian soldier killed by terrorists. India needs to rent some B-52s to prepare the parking lots to set up the new fence. When the LOC reaches downtown Islamagood, perhaps they will get the message. Where is Cholaji?


We would generally attack Paki post which are at lower ridges. Pointless capturing them, as you need to maintain a defensive position, like the Pakis. The Pakis will then start attacking these new posts from their ridges. There are places where Pakis dominate, it would worthwhile to get those, however we have seen how difficult it is during kargil.

The recent strike brought a question in my mind. Why only attack on one post? Did GoI specially tell IA, to attack only one post? If yes, then GoI is placing a operational constrain. With so much CFV this year, I dont see why GoI would place such a silly constrain.

If GoI did not, why did IA attack only 1 post? why not 5?

I am coming to the conclusion. that IA does not want to give massive response. This is going to go on for a long time.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby sudeepj » 27 Dec 2017 22:39

Our goal should be to make the Pakis stop these misadventures, not to engage in some kind of an 'honor and dignity' fight with them where we 'equal the score' and call it even. The latest strikes across the border are somewhat satisfying in that some action is being taken, but I doubt they will result in the Paki elite having second thoughts about escalating in one sector or another at a time of their choosing.

Even if Paki border posts are hit and destroyed, the only chaps killed are ordinary puki jawans. Their lives are expendable to the Paki elite. What is needed is something that hits the officer corps and capital assets of the Paki army. Unless brigadiers and above die, or suffer severe financial loss, they will not stop these misadventures.

I dont see why a fire assault can not be carried out on a group of Paki officers. I dont see why a civilian high economic value soft target can not be hit. I dont see why their banks can not suffer from a hack attack that destroys billions, similar to what the Bangladeshi central bank suffered.

Nothing is going to be decided at the LoC.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby vasu raya » 27 Dec 2017 22:52

nam wrote:There are places where Pakis dominate, it would worthwhile to get those, however we have seen how difficult it is during kargil.


While this response time is a commendable improvement, we should get out of the equal-equal warfare mode as its just a war of attrition. So, a campaign could be conducted to align the LoC that make their cross border raids initiative extremely difficult. The Indian side which always asks for useful goals etc., to act can use this, then comes dominating the CPEC route.

Also show us how a 'Kargil war' now would be fought? than it was done in 1999. A 1km alignment correction may land us quite a number of PoWs as well.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 27 Dec 2017 23:02

Thakur_B wrote:^^ I believe start of every season, all paki posts facing our posts should be razed to ground. Then let pakis spend money, resources and manpower rebuilding it and then raze it again. Let it happen 3-4 times a season and they will start shifting their posts farther and farther.


Basically as we fix internal security and the economy starts flowing to the material resupply such as Bharat Forge churning out shells...and most importantly a BJP Govt is in power, then we can fully expect TSP to be hammered round the clock.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby nam » 27 Dec 2017 23:11

While this response time is a commendable improvement, we should get out of the equal-equal warfare mode as its just a war of attrition. So, a campaign could be conducted to align the LoC that make their cross border raids initiative extremely difficult. The Indian side which always asks for useful goals etc., to act can use this, then comes dominating the CPEC route.


There is no way to seal the LoC. Google Earth 3d mode showed me the reality. The LoC is crazy. Thousands of Mountains & valleys and thick forest.

It is up to IA how to respond to an incident. It it does want to to, there is nothing we chattering class can do, other than blaming GoI.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby nam » 27 Dec 2017 23:15

Did we make a treaty as part of 2003 ceasefire not to use 155 MM? Or we are waiting for Pakis to fire first.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Trikaal » 27 Dec 2017 23:29

Time to put dhanush to use. Field trials on paki posts.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Aditya G » 27 Dec 2017 23:29

http://www.theweek.in/news/india/indian ... istan.html

We have decided to respond in the same coin, and quickly," a senior army officer sitting in the Army Headquarters told THE WEEK, giving his reaction to the Indian Army's cross-border raid on Pakistani Army posts to avenge the recent killing of four Indian Army men, including an officer of the rank of major.

According to the military establishment, the Indian Army over a period of time, especially after the June 2015 'hot pursuit' into Myanmar, has changed its strategy to react immediately to enemy action. And also to publicly acknowledge it.

"Nowadays, we are always in 'hurry' to react. It not only sends a message to the outside world, but is also good for the morale of the unit and to bring back its confidence, as it lost its men in enemy action,"an officer explained.

The Army was rattled by the deadly ambush on a convoy of 6 Dogra Regiment in a border district of Manipur that killed 18 soldiers in June 2015. Days later, special forces of the Indian Army carried out a cross-border operation and neutralised 30-40 NSCN (K) insurgents hiding in the jungles of Myanmar. Calling it a 'hot pursuit', the then Director General of Military Operations, Lt. General Ranbir Singh, came out on camera and claimed to have inflicted massive damage to the insurgent camps.

And a similar strategy was adopted last year after the September 18 attack on the Uri brigade, in which 19 Indian Army troops were killed by militants with the help of regulars of the Pakistani Army. Exactly 10 days later, the Indian Army carried out a 'surgical strike' in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir and caused massive damage to the militant camps based in the area. And the same Lt. General Ranbir Singh came out with a statement before the media, publicly admitting to the cross-border commando operation on enemy soil.

"From Myanmar to the surgical strike, we have adopted a strategy to take revenge as early as possible. And our stance was also changed and we don't hesitate to admit our soldiers' daring act. Over a period of time, it has become a norm to react immediately,"said a senior army officer, while adding that political leadership has left the decision with the Army to respond in a manner it wants to.

Speaking with authority and command, Army Chief General Bipin Rawat recently told in a public event that the Indian Army will not hesitate to repeat surgical strikes. "The surgical strike was conducted to send a message and if our adversaries do not understand, it will be repeated,” the Army Chief reportedly said.

Army sources also maintained that it has become a necessity to admit to operations publicly before it takes a wrong sentiment. They gave the example of the beheading of two Indian soldiers in January 2013 by a border action team comprising militants and regulars from the Pakistani Army. The then Army Chief General Bikram Singh reportedly responded by saying that Indian Army will take action at the time and place of its choice. Eventually, it led to lot of public anger and put the political leadership under pressure.

While explaining about the situation on the Line of Control, Army sources claim that the present year of 2017 has seen the maximum number of ceasefire violations by the Pakistani Army in comparison with previous years.

According to the figures available with the establishment, the Pakistani Army has violated the ceasefire along the International Border and the Line of Control in Jammu and Kashmir more than 720 times this year, the highest in the past seven years. Last year, the Pakistani Army violated the ceasefire 221 times on the LoC, while the 2015 figure was only 60 such incidents. Repeated firing on the border led to the killing of 61 Indian troops in 2017.

"This year, the number, intensity and calibre of ceasefire violations have been so high. We also decided to respond in the same manner, which led to increase in number of casualties on both sides," an officer told THE WEEK.

Major Moharkar Prafulla Ambadas, Lance Naik Gurmail Singh, Sepoy Gurmeet Singh and Sepoy Pargat Singh, belonging to 2 Sikh Regiment and posted in Chingus area of Rajouri, were killed in the border action team action carried out by the regulars of Pakistani Army, along with militants, on December 23.

Within hours, the Poonch Brigade of the Indian Army launched a cross-border attack with five-seven commandos of its Ghatak unit and targeted posts of the 59 Baloch Regiment under 2 PoK Brigade, also called as Rawalkot Brigade of the Pakistani Army. There were at least three confirmed casualties and one injured, but unconfirmed reports claim casualties could be more.

Without calling it a surgical strike, a senior defence ministry official told that it was a 'local tactical level' action taken by the local commanders of the brigade level. “It was a short-distance raid about 200-300 metres inside the LoC,” the official explained.

Army sources claim that Sunday's strike was in retaliation to the Pakistani Army's action, in which they infiltrated into the Indian side by nearly 400 meters to target Indian soldiers.

“It was a tit-for-tat action involving selective targeting. Such actions do not last very long. The commandos targeted a group of Pakistani soldiers on patrol near a temporary post. An explosion was triggered near the Pakistani patrol, which may have led to the killing of Pakistani soldiers," the officer added.

An officer maintained that such tactical-level operations keep happening on the border, especially when the situation is volatile. However, the tactics have changed. Instead of waiting for the enemy to be less alert or careful, the Indian Army is retaliating 'quickly and strongly'.


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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ashishvikas » 27 Dec 2017 23:34

By - Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain
December 26, 2017

Having operated extensively on the LoC, I can vouch for the above vulnerabilities, and can confirm that it is near impossible to be secure everywhere because all deployments carry an element of risk.

The Indian Army’s vulnerability is higher because of deployment in smaller detachments and sub-units aimed at curbing infiltration. Patrolling is done to dominate gaps.

https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/voic ... ssion=true

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 27 Dec 2017 23:45

Karan M wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ I believe start of every season, all paki posts facing our posts should be razed to ground. Then let pakis spend money, resources and manpower rebuilding it and then raze it again. Let it happen 3-4 times a season and they will start shifting their posts farther and farther.


Basically as we fix internal security and the economy starts flowing to the material resupply such as Bharat Forge churning out shells...and most importantly a BJP Govt is in power, then we can fully expect TSP to be hammered round the clock.


Political will is the single most important criteria. I’ll give you an example. Very recently I was talking to a senior retired general whose formation was responsible for making a very important thrust into Pak during Parakram. After final discussions The army chief had asked “where will we have breakfast on xxx date ‘. He told him the place - it was deep in Pak territory. Army chiefs asked “ are you sure you can do this”. He said “yes inshiah allah :D “. They were waiting for final orders to go but they never came as we all know. And he said “even though we were disappinted I couldn’t help thinking - we have superiority , we are committed , will probably take a lot of territory. We will have casaulties doing it. And then a few months later we will give it back. What’s the point ? we know at the end of the day we will always be let down and whatever we have achieved will be given away “.

Itwill take a committed govt some years of positive signals on ground and purposeful action to dispel this concern.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby atamjeetsingh » 27 Dec 2017 23:54

nam wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Wonder if it is possible to push the LOC 1 mile for each Indian soldier killed by terrorists. India needs to rent some B-52s to prepare the parking lots to set up the new fence. When the LOC reaches downtown Islamagood, perhaps they will get the message. Where is Cholaji?


We would generally attack Paki post which are at lower ridges. Pointless capturing them, as you need to maintain a defensive position, like the Pakis. The Pakis will then start attacking these new posts from their ridges. There are places where Pakis dominate, it would worthwhile to get those, however we have seen how difficult it is during kargil.

The recent strike brought a question in my mind. Why only attack on one post? Did GoI specially tell IA, to attack only one post? If yes, then GoI is placing a operational constrain. With so much CFV this year, I dont see why GoI would place such a silly constrain.

If GoI did not, why did IA attack only 1 post? why not 5?

I am coming to the conclusion. that IA does not want to give massive response. This is going to go on for a long time.


My guess is b'cos of Kulbushan Jadhav we dont want to increase tempo to that level yet.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Dec 2017 00:00

ashishvikas wrote:By - Lieutenant General Syed Ata Hasnain
December 26, 2017

Having operated extensively on the LoC, I can vouch for the above vulnerabilities, and can confirm that it is near impossible to be secure everywhere because all deployments carry an element of risk.

The Indian Army’s vulnerability is higher because of deployment in smaller detachments and sub-units aimed at curbing infiltration. Patrolling is done to dominate gaps.

https://www.thequint.com/amp/story/voic ... ssion=true




That is why I agree with some posters on this thread that the response has to be calibrated several notches above what we have done. And for that - as I explained on the post above - we need a clear strategy and politics will to achieve it. What’s the objective and the end game. That ha at one clearly enunciated otherwise we will keep having these discussions in the coming months and years as new atrocities happen.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Aditya G » 28 Dec 2017 00:15

Every winter Pakis pull off a spectacular. Parliament attack, 2611, pathankot etc.

Every winter we are left angry due to inaction.

Have we seen this winters spectacular? If so this time we have also seen a response.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Lisa » 28 Dec 2017 00:28

Indian Army is reacting to puki attacks. This in essence is wrong. We should be the dominant force that is attacking on a regular basis leaving the pukis to work out how to react. There cannot be peace on this border until the pukis are on the defensive. Constant, proactive and robust assaults from India are a minimum benchmark.
Last edited by Lisa on 28 Dec 2017 00:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Dec 2017 00:30

Aditya G wrote:Every winter Pakis pull off a spectacular. Parliament attack, 2611, pathankot etc.

Every winter we are left angry due to inaction.

Have we seen this winters spectacular? If so this time we have also seen a response.


This wasn't a spectacular but a normal BAT action that they keep doing. These actions first came into public consciousness with NK Hemraj beheading. We have responded but not officer has been killed. Is this response a deterrent to future action. I don't know buyy gut feel is no it's not. As posters have e pointed out their sepoys are just cannon fodder and the BATs have an unlimited supply of trained jihadis. Pak army and terrorists are the same for a very long time now. It's not in their interests to stop these attacks, they will keep getting opportunities because we are essentially presenting them tragets as we patrol LC t prevent infiltration. And they keep us tied down in the valley.

This situation will never change unless we fundamentally reset it.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Dec 2017 00:32

Lisa I agree.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby chetak » 28 Dec 2017 00:35

Lisa wrote:Indian Army is reacting to puki attacks. This in essence is wrong. We should be to dominant force that is attacking on a regular basis leaving the pukis to work out how to react. There cannot be peace on this border until the pukis are on the defensive. Constant, proactive and robust assaults from India are a minimum benchmark.


I see your point but its kind of hard to practice, especially with hostile malsis on both sides of the LOC with the hostile local malsis actively telegraphing almost every move made by the IA.

let them feel the pain. Reduce central aid to the state by simply scaling it back to a level given to any another average Indian state and stop mollycoddling these creeps. They will never improve.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Lisa » 28 Dec 2017 00:42

I understand but what's to stop us from attacking any puki post we wish to and to do so regularly. Artillery is cheap and we process more men and material then they do. We should start in a small way and slowly expand our theater of punishment. When you have time look at this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Attrition

I would be very interested in your opinion.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Prem Kumar » 28 Dec 2017 01:33

Firstly, we ought to acknowledge that Modi sarkar is a 1000 times better than Sonia (who was a friend of ISI).

That being said, a "guaranteed reaction", however disproportionate, is just that - a reaction. The enemy will soon figure out that its coming. So, the Pakis still have the element of surprise on when to attack first.

If you are in a fight, if you defend all the time, it emboldens your attacker because he knows that you aren't taking the initiative.

As Mike Tyson said, "Everyone's got plans, until they get punched in the face". So, we should go beyond massive retaliation towards pro-active face-punching.

Mid term objective should be nothing less than the destruction of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal & dismemberment of that terrorist state. Defeat of Islam needs to be a civilizational objective.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Bart S » 28 Dec 2017 01:52

Lisa wrote:Indian Army is reacting to puki attacks. This in essence is wrong. We should be the dominant force that is attacking on a regular basis leaving the pukis to work out how to react. There cannot be peace on this border until the pukis are on the defensive. Constant, proactive and robust assaults from India are a minimum benchmark.


+1 Gazillion.

This is the lesson that we are reluctant to learn from the days of Prithviraj Chauhan or earlier. They are a bunch of uncivilized delusional people who have sworn to destroy us and will keep attacking us no matter how strong we get. The only way to handle them is to proactively destroy them, and in the narrow context of the LOC, keep attacking them preemptively.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 01:55

Gentlemen, again - please see how the stakes are being redrawn. After decades of kadi ninda, and occasionally hush oh so silent revenge raids, now we are openly conducting SF strikes. So the game and so called redlines have all been redrawn. Every time IA SF delivers, the political establishment will give them more tools and freedom to actually cause deterrence. Procurement is being put in place that the IA itself will become so formidable that the local PA commander thinks thrice before even undertaking any stupid action.

In return, as Akshay mentions, the mindset of our services will also change, because they will finally have the Govt their performers deserve & will in turn work with GOI to meet political and service related objectives of deterrence.

We are living in momentous times. The gloves are finally being taken off from our security forces perspective.

We have waited 70 odd years for this moment, savor it.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Bart S » 28 Dec 2017 02:04

nam wrote:
While this response time is a commendable improvement, we should get out of the equal-equal warfare mode as its just a war of attrition. So, a campaign could be conducted to align the LoC that make their cross border raids initiative extremely difficult. The Indian side which always asks for useful goals etc., to act can use this, then comes dominating the CPEC route.


There is no way to seal the LoC. Google Earth 3d mode showed me the reality. The LoC is crazy. Thousands of Mountains & valleys and thick forest.

It is up to IA how to respond to an incident. It it does want to to, there is nothing we chattering class can do, other than blaming GoI.



Could we perhaps deforest certain strategic areas so that they don't have the cover of foliage?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 02:06

BTW - following orders are now in pipeline - the hangup is just confirmatory trials and similar stuff, which is occurring as we speak.
100 odd SPH are on order as are 175 ULH 155mm guns. The DRDO ATAGS has been asked to be ready for an initial indent of 150 odd units. The Dhanush is 114 unit LSP. Even if the latter doesn't happen, we are already looking towards a steady pace of induction of new arty & the IA has now been cleared to upg more 130mms as well to 155mm, plus private sector firms are now allowed to bid for ammo. Many DRDO missile programs are already tapping private firms for explosives.

Pinaka 2 has cleared trials & guided Pinaka too had successful trials recently.

TI sights for the T-72s have been inducted en masse & ditto for the BMPs. Grade 2 ERA is now on order for enhanced protection over the current fit.
The problem child aka the T-90, has three issues - one is its FSAPDS ammo (which though of older gen, in its Russian import form is sufficient for most TSP armor), its new gun sights are headed for trials & both T-72 and T-90 are to get new Indian commander TI sights. With these 3 fixes, the T-90, will become fairly potent round the clock (as versus stores having to be carefully managed for conflict usage).

Our great DPSU HAL has been taken to task and hence serviceability for its products is now a KPI by which it is tasked. This is again a big deal as a dysfunctional system has been shaken out of its slumber.

The list goes on and on and on...

All I can say is, its fairly evident the services are getting re-equipped on a significant scale. Again, its not to the level, say we on BRF want, but to a moth eaten TSP which has always barked way above its bite, its translating to significant dominance.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Prem » 28 Dec 2017 02:06

Karan M wrote:Gentlemen, again - please see how the stakes are being redrawn. After decades of kadi ninda, and occasionally hush oh so silent revenge raids, now we are openly conducting SF strikes. So the game and so called redlines have all been redrawn. Every time IA SF delivers, the political establishment will give them more tools and freedom to actually cause deterrence. Procurement is being put in place that the IA itself will become so formidable that the local PA commander thinks thrice before even undertaking any stupid action.In return, as Akshay mentions, the mindset of our services will also change, because they will finally have the Govt their performers deserve & will in turn work with GOI to meet political and service related objectives of deterrence. We are living in momentous times. The gloves are finally being taken off from our security forces perspective.
We have waited 70 odd years for this moment, savor it.


The Retired retard Puke general A. Shoaib noted this change few months ago and mentioned on TV that Paki fauj should expect big trouble from IA from now on as offensive force and not in defensive mode.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Khalsa » 28 Dec 2017 02:19

nam wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Wonder if it is possible to push the LOC 1 mile for each Indian soldier killed by terrorists. India needs to rent some B-52s to prepare the parking lots to set up the new fence. When the LOC reaches downtown Islamagood, perhaps they will get the message. Where is Cholaji?


We would generally attack Paki post which are at lower ridges. Pointless capturing them, as you need to maintain a defensive position, like the Pakis. The Pakis will then start attacking these new posts from their ridges. There are places where Pakis dominate, it would worthwhile to get those, however we have seen how difficult it is during kargil.

The recent strike brought a question in my mind. Why only attack on one post? Did GoI specially tell IA, to attack only one post? If yes, then GoI is placing a operational constrain. With so much CFV this year, I dont see why GoI would place such a silly constrain.

If GoI did not, why did IA attack only 1 post? why not 5?

I am coming to the conclusion. that IA does not want to give massive response. This is going to go on for a long time.


2 Sikh must have played part in choosing the target.
They lost the men, they are given the opportunity and are usually found leading the retaliation planning.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Khalsa » 28 Dec 2017 02:22

Karan M wrote:Gentlemen, again - please see how the stakes are being redrawn. After decades of kadi ninda, and occasionally hush oh so silent revenge raids, now we are openly conducting SF strikes. So the game and so called redlines have all been redrawn. Every time IA SF delivers, the political establishment will give them more tools and freedom to actually cause deterrence. Procurement is being put in place that the IA itself will become so formidable that the local PA commander thinks thrice before even undertaking any stupid action.

In return, as Akshay mentions, the mindset of our services will also change, because they will finally have the Govt their performers deserve & will in turn work with GOI to meet political and service related objectives of deterrence.

We are living in momentous times. The gloves are finally being taken off from our security forces perspective.

We have waited 70 odd years for this moment, savor it.



Well said Karan, well said.
Yes I remember the days of Kadi Ninda.... USELESS !!!

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby nam » 28 Dec 2017 02:46

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Political will is the single most important criteria. I’ll give you an example. Very recently I was talking to a senior retired general whose formation was responsible for making a very important thrust into Pak during Parakram. After final discussions The army chief had asked “where will we have breakfast on xxx date ‘. He told him the place - it was deep in Pak territory. Army chiefs asked “ are you sure you can do this”. He said “yes inshiah allah :D “. They were waiting for final orders to go but they never came as we all know. And he said “even though we were disappinted I couldn’t help thinking - we have superiority , we are committed , will probably take a lot of territory. We will have casaulties doing it. And then a few months later we will give it back. What’s the point ? we know at the end of the day we will always be let down .


The biggest issue with capturing large part of pakiland is, what do we do with ... Pakis who come along with it!

If we capture Lahore, I am pretty sure the whole of Pakistan will stream into the city overnight. Which paki will not like to be Indian. 10 times more GDP, no cavity search, "secular parties" etc... Indian tax payers will then have to feed these freeloaders for their life.

We have trouble hunting 3 mil illegal Bangladeshi. imagine if their western brothers join in..

This is the lot which consider Indian medical visa as their birthright.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby nam » 28 Dec 2017 03:07

Khalsa wrote:
2 Sikh must have played part in choosing the target.
They lost the men, they are given the opportunity and are usually found leading the retaliation planning.


What concerns me is the scope of response. We are dealing with an army which has provided cannon fodder to russia Afghan war, American Afghan war, Kashmir, kargil in thousands.

A company sized FC attack on a Afghan base was wiped out by Americans. No one knew about it until one of US serviceman wrote about it.

10, 15, 30 is not a number PA general will waste time on. Don't know why would IA think one attack will deter the pakis.


PS: I always wondered about paki pension bill for its cannon fodders.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Dec 2017 03:40

Karan M wrote:Gentlemen, again - please see how the stakes are being redrawn. After decades of kadi ninda, and occasionally hush oh so silent revenge raids, now we are openly conducting SF strikes. So the game and so called redlines have all been redrawn. Every time IA SF delivers, the political establishment will give them more tools and freedom to actually cause deterrence. Procurement is being put in place that the IA itself will become so formidable that the local PA commander thinks thrice before even undertaking any stupid action.

In return, as Akshay mentions, the mindset of our services will also change, because they will finally have the Govt their performers deserve & will in turn work with GOI to meet political and service related objectives of deterrence.

We are living in momentous times. The gloves are finally being taken off from our security forces perspective.

We have waited 70 odd years for this moment, savor it.

Karan sir sorry to disagree on some of the things.
1. People on BRF did not wait so long for this calibrated response. Can we explain this calibrated response to the widows or families of our martyrs? Yes it is better than kadi ninda but does it bring true deterrence
2. Trust me IA will never be strong enough to deter pakis. IA has to be brutal with these b***ds. Their heads severed, genital mutilation or burnt with pig oil or capture and fed with pork or pigshit. There are only two ways we can deter, use a tactical nuke everytime they cross line or cause a bloodbath so much that they realize they dont have the capability to do that
3. Yes IA reequipping program is coming up well, but that needs to be accelerated. We need to take off the self imposed limits of use of airpower. A
4. Pakistan and its forces can not sustain a protracted escalation/ or a full scale conflict and will have to climb down because of their resources.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Dec 2017 03:51

nam wrote:A company sized FC attack on a Afghan base was wiped out by Americans. No one knew about it until one of US serviceman wrote about it.

Which one??

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 03:54

Arjun Pandit, again you are missing the point completely and your post is sorry to say, the usual rant we have seen so far on multiple social media without even considering the facts as they stand.

Yes, the families of martyrs will be happy their families were avenged as versus being told 'kadi ninda" and reading about dossier diplomacy.

Our decision makers in the past were either of the wrong moral fiber or lacked the necessary confidence to take action thanks to their own inaction in equipping the services.

It is different now.

With each action the IA is reestablishing its psychological dominance over its enemy and GOI is signalling it has IA's back, so that puts the entire nation on a better trajectory.

Next, responses are always calibrated.

Yelling 'war, claiming tactical nukes are the answer is childish. Because it is not going to happen and is a waste of bandwidth. Which sane indian decision maker wants to sacrifice his nations rational growth path to shut down TSP while China chuckles in the background? Instead, they were all this while searching for alternatives, having convinced themselves ANY action would be dangerous and cause an instant war.

It was analysis paralysis and moral turpitude, aka cowardice to constantly sacrifice our soldiers while pretending no retaliation was possible

This GOI and IA have openly called TSPs bluff. It is a historic moment.

The TSP supporters in India, the overground p-sec types like Swamy, the assorted G-clan followers on are apoplectic with rage. The entire sham edifice of Nehruvian secularism of constantly absorbing blows by TSP is collapsing.

The current GOI and the services are redrawing Indian policy.

If it makes you feel better to vent it out on BRF, then ok you just did it. But you know for a fact that neither our services nor our decision makers are stupid enough to sacrifice what India has gained over 70 years in economic and social progress over a nuclear conflict.

So deterrence has to be established, in a manner that plays to OUR strengths in conventional warfare without giving the TSP morons a chance to use nukes as deterrence.

The IA is establishing that with its calibrated use of regular forces - its SF today, it will be Ghataks tomorrow. The writing is on the wall.

Understand the point I am making viz reequipping. A battery of Bofors can deliver a significant payload without airpower or any fearsome editorials in NPA warning of n-war because India used airpower & hence dont invest in India blah blah.

Same way, all of IAs current inductions will allow it to plaster the Pakis without even breaking a sweat in terms of recalculating this stock, or that reserve.

When this becomes the new norm on parts of the LOC, you will automatically see TSP realize that war with India is no longer as fun as they thought it was, by letting the jihadis and sepoys bleed.

The current Govt and the services are setting a new deterrence paradigm in place, understand it and watch - it started with one raid, now we have two and it will only go further from here. The fake redlines drawn on not crossing the LOC/LAC etc are disappearing, and today its infantry, tomorrow its arty and it will only continue. If a J&K attack happens, and multiple TSP outposts get razed as a given, then automatically the message will start percolating to TSP. And over time, we will likely not even wait for attacks but hit pre-emptively. The entire policy is being changed, one step at a time. Wait and watch.

Or rant angrily about how to decapitate TSP with nukes and similar unrealistic stuff. Your choice.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 04:04

nam wrote:
Khalsa wrote:
2 Sikh must have played part in choosing the target.
They lost the men, they are given the opportunity and are usually found leading the retaliation planning.


What concerns me is the scope of response. We are dealing with an army which has provided cannon fodder to russia Afghan war, American Afghan war, Kashmir, kargil in thousands.

A company sized FC attack on a Afghan base was wiped out by Americans. No one knew about it until one of US serviceman wrote about it.

10, 15, 30 is not a number PA general will waste time on. Don't know why would IA think one attack will deter the pakis.


PS: I always wondered about paki pension bill for its cannon fodders.


Rome was not built in a day.

You quote the Americans. Can you tell me one time they crossed into TSP and did what we have done twice? Even the OBL raid was carefully choreographed to avoid an open fight with the TSP guys.

You quote them as an example, when they could not even secure the Afghan hinterlands and their exposed outposts were routinely attacked by huge Taliban groups with even FF and PA personnel embedded. What was the answer - give more aid.

What IA is doing is setting a new pattern in place. They used to go into TSP for recce and always knew they could strike. Now they are striking. More they do this, more the GOI will support them.

It won't just be IA SF - it will be Ghataks, it will be arty, anything and everything.

This is the new "normal" and it is historic, because it shows the surgical strikes were not a one off. But now, more and more, its policy.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Dec 2017 04:08

^^Yes sir it is a rant,
1. Please dont think I am angry with the current govt or you either
2. I dont have any choice except vote for this govt and pay my taxes honestly
3. The nuke point was obviously an exaggeration. I also realize that its not feasible.
4. Sadly, many things you said is based on this govt continuing. I sincerely pray that it does and all what you said turns out to be true.
5. Crying war may be childish, but to me we are in a low intensity warfare with a self imposed restraint which was strengthened by inaction/impotence of UPA1/2. If mumbai attack was not an act of war then what else would be.
6. Lastly, what you have written in the post above is something I agree but this ranting jingo would like it to happen sooner.

I agree with this new normal part. I doubt PA would have invested in 'infiltration detection' capabilities as much as we have

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 04:10

The next time a threat presents itself, and a debate begins on action to take, when some muthrakumar or mani shitty type bloviates about shared values then blusters about the n-threat from TSP and how we should "talk" to sort out issues.. NOW, thanks to the current GOI and IA leadership (and the troops themselves)... the then COAS will lean back with a smile and say, sir we have been hitting them all this while, Where is the so-called war you MEA/IFS types are scared about? And that gentlemen, is how the policy of precedence matters.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Dec 2017 04:11

Karan M wrote:Can you tell me one time they crossed into TSP and did what we have done twice? Even the OBL raid was carefully choreographed to avoid an open fight with the TSP guys.


Main thing is their eastern borders are not that protected

I think nam is talking about this
Salala Attack

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 04:13

Again, you are missing the point.

The more such strikes occur and become the new "normal", even if a weepy MMS type is in power, or a complete coward who wants the easy way out, the IA can showcase these strikes and say "see, we called their bluff, so don't worry" and that is a BIG thing.

We are setting a precedence.

When NDA-2 came into power, they made India a nuclear weapons state. Officially declared. MMS raged and ranted against it in parliament. He and his cronies did their best to keep the services weak. But guess what, Arihant was still launched because NDA-2 set a new normal which became the de-facto state.

This Govt is attempting to do the same.


ArjunPandit wrote:^^Yes sir it is a rant,
1. Please dont think I am angry with the current govt or you either
2. I dont have any choice except vote for this govt and pay my taxes honestly
3. The nuke point was obviously an exaggeration. I also realize that its not feasible.
4. Sadly, many things you said is based on this govt continuing. I sincerely pray that it does and all what you said turns out to be true.
5. Crying war may be childish, but to me we are in a low intensity warfare with a self imposed restraint which was strengthened by inaction/impotence of UPA1/2. If mumbai attack was not an act of war then what else would be.
6. Lastly, what you have written in the post above is something I agree but this ranting jingo would like it to happen sooner.

I agree with this new normal part. I doubt PA would have invested in 'infiltration detection' capabilities as much as we have


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