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Army strikes terror camps in PoK

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Karan M
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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:25

rkhanna wrote:
The pending list is substantial too. However, it does show GOI is now emphasizing spending on defense as a priority.
Otherwise MOD would not be clearing these deals since MOF would stall them.


Unfortunately the Cynic in me is still begrudging. Rafales, SAMs, Subs are to prepare for a War that may come and 'big ticket items' look good on the CV of the Govt.

Ignoring the "non sexy" bigger priority of Small Arms, Battle Field First Aid, Protection, Optics, Small unit level Drones, etc means we continue to bleed in the battle we currently are fighting.

Everything I had heard and seen with this MoD (and due to professional reason some of it is first hand) tells me that while you are correct on Govts Priority in Def Spending (its not just hogwash) they have a lazer focus on these "big ticket items" and the "smaller details" will get left behind.


The focus is on big ticket items and smaller ones too.

Depends on multiple issues - state of progress of trials, vendors compliant, state of progress through CCS, DAC etc.

50K BPJs were procured from TAML as a priority (likely for COIN) but:

Recently we had this: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 025273.cms

Defence ministry sources on Monday said a contract for 1,58,279 light-weight ballistic helmets, worth around Rs 170 crore, is on the anvil now.


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

Helmets
And previously: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 632004.cms
BPJs

NEW DELHI: The Army chief has assured bulletproof jackets for soldiers would be procured speedily. The 'process to procure 1.86 lakh jackets, with new qualitative requirements, has passed technical trials and were undergoing field trials as part of the second stage of the process, he said.

"The Army is moving to provide the jackets at the earliest," said Gen Suhag said at his annual press conference last week. Sources in the Ministry of Defence told ET that this is the first time the process of acquisition has cleared the technical stage, since the procurement process began in 2009.


Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

So the numbers are identical, around 1.86 lakh in both cases. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so. We are seeing a speedy push to rectify all sorts of deficiencies. The gap in what was needed and what was available was huge & its being fixed one step at a time.

The next things to come through will be optics, mostly NVGs and TIs (optics for rifles will be separate) & infantry comms.

BTW, BEL just announced they have developed - a new gunners main sight for the T-90. In one fell swoop, if this works, this fixes the most critical vulnerability of the T-90 tank!!
Last edited by Karan M on 15 Oct 2016 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:28

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Karan M wrote:The pending list is substantial too. However, it does show GOI is now emphasizing spending on defense as a priority.
Otherwise MOD would not be clearing these deals since MOF would stall them.


I have spent some time searching for contracts signed and still can't find much. I do hope Parikkar's remark is actual contracts signed and also does not inlcude renweals of Ordance contracts with OFB and standard ordnance suppliers - we sign contracts for boots, standard ammo, uniforms, etc all them time from DGOS - DG Ordance Services. The process is still too cumbersome...services project a need, goes through vetting at MOD by cluless babus who often change (in that case snake bites and down the body to starting point...train new babu, explain whole thing again), the goes to DAC (lots of back and forth and finanly approval comes), then goes to MOF, then CCS...its a joke.


Akshay, it includes all deals - standard ones for ammo & other items from OFB etc, and big-ticket items such as ships, aircraft etc. Some deals of course skew the whole procurement, e.g. a single Rafale deal. But still a very substantial sum otherwise, even if halved.

Anyway coming back to this thread, when I searched for Parikkar (for contracts signed) all I got is TOI and other articles question him on surgical strikes. Is this some kind of collective insanity a substantial part of the press suffer from ?


The press in India are a gone case.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:37

Speaking of big ticket purchases add these to the list:

GOA: In a game-changing arms acquisition+ , India on Saturday announced that it will buy the S-400 'Triumf' air defence systems+ from Russia, worth over $5 billion, and collaborate in making four state of art frigates besides setting up a joint production facility for making Kamov helicopters.

The deals were announced following talks held between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin+ on the sidelines of the BRICS Summit being held here.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 866428.cms

120 LCA, 36 Rafale, 5 S-400 regiments & focus on Su-30 spares ...the IAF is not doing too badly with current GOI.

I predict the SF guys will be the next focus (all the way to PMO level) that raid into POK and Myanmar will make them stand out & their priorities will be focused on.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:39

Rafale deal was $8.8 Bn.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:40

In contrast specific infantry needs for SF will not even be $100 Mn and hence can be fast tracked..

Not sure about NSG though. Under MOH, and have not been tracking their progress.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 17:58

Some interesting stats about how much ROI India actually gets from local R&D as versus the drift spun by media of only delays etc.

So, leaving out the Agnis etc, the total number of DRDO programs by value on order/inducted is around $30 Bn.

Products/Systems/Technologies Developed by DRDO Inducted/Under Induction into Services as on 22 Dec 15
Systems Cost (Rs in Cr) Inducted Under Induction
Missile Systems 23863.25 46519.67
Electronics and Radar Systems 14010.44 23622.22
Advanced Materials and Composites 4400.90 608.84
Armament Systems 8406.67 19096.12
Aeronautical Systems 598.76 24668.59
Combat Vehicles &Engg Systems 13235.46 11499.54
Life Sciences Systems 292.21 305.70
Naval Systems 1061.06 1332.88
MED & Computational Systems 1450.64 4649.41
Total 67319.39 132302.96
Grand Total (Inducted + Under Induction) Rs 199622.35 Cr
Note: Strategic Systems not included.


How much do we spend on Defense R&D as % of defense budget?

Total GDP vs Defence R&D Expenditure (Rs. in Cr) Year Total GDP* Defence R&D Expenditure Defence R&D Expenditure (as % of Total GDP)
2010 - 11 7674148.00 10149.00 0.13
2011 - 12 8832012.00 9894.00 0.11
2012 - 13 9280803.00 9794.80 0.10
2013 - 14 9921106.00 10868.88 0.11
2014 - 15 10656925.00 13257.98 0.12
2015 - 16(BE)* 11350962.00 12391.21 0.11


We spend only 6% of our defense budget on R&D

Year Defence Expenditure R&D Expenditure %age of Defence Expenditure
2011-12 1,70,913.00 9,893.84 5.79
2012-13 1,81,776.00 9,794.80 5.39
2013-14 2,03499.35 10,868.88 5.34
2014-15 2,22370.00 13257.98 6.05
2015-16(RE) 224636.00 12491.21 5.56
2016-17(BE) 249099.00 13593.78 5.46

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 18:04

On how budgets for future programs were delayed, and current GOI focus

‘Every year budget requirement is projected by DRDO based on the ongoing
projects/programmes and futuristic requirements. Nearly, 80% of total budget is
being utilised on Mission Mode (MM) Projects with deliverables for Armed Forces.
Short falls in budget affect Technology Development (TD), Science and Technology
(S&T), Development of Infrastructure and Facilities (IF), and projects related to
Product Support (PS). Due to shortage of funds, projects and other ongoing
activities are re-prioritized.
Government is making all possible efforts to meet the
budgetary requirement of DRDO, within the available resources, so that its flagship
programmes do not suffer due to lack of funds’.


Recent inductions for Services are:

For the Forces viz. Army, Navy and Air force - Army: Prithvi, Agni, Akash,
BrahMos, Lakshya Nishant, MBT Arjun Mk-I, AAD Mk-I, AERV, Sarvatra, Pinaka,
ROV, Radar-3D TCR, WLR, BFSR, Samyukta EW, DivyaDrishti and Samvahak.
Navy: Dhanush, LRSAM, BrahMos, Sangraha EW, Varuna ESM, Dolphin ESM,
Humsa NG, USHUS,TAL, Revathi – Radar, Maareech, Varunasta, Submarines and
Escape Set. Air Force: Prithvi, Akash, MRSAM, Lakshya, Eagle EW, LCA Tejas,
AEW&C, Rohini, Aslesha, SAR-Radars, Avionics for MiG 29, Su-30, Laser Designator
cum TI, Aerial Delivery Systems and CPSS.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 18:25

Some orders for new kit for IA include:
2014-15

Building up ammo stocks and improving serviceability:

In financial year 2014-15 a number of important contracts viz High Zone Modules of Bi Modular Charge System (BMCS) for 155mm Guns, Component Level Repair Facility for Tank T-90, Rockets for Smerch, L-70 Gun Upgrades, HMV GS 6x6 with Mechanical Handling Crane (MHC), P-7 Platform System and Extended Range Rockets for GRAD BM-21 MBRL were signed.


The BMCS was from France. Not seen media reports about it.

Also
'A system of five years roll on indents has been introduced and a road map on
ammunition has been approved which envisages procurement ex-import and ex-trade to
build up adequate targeted stocks along with three years training requirement.


An institutionalized mechanism in the form of Working Group to review critical items of
ammunitions and issues of spares, barrels, overhaul programme of infantry and
mechanized forces have also been set up.

Second Five Year Ammunition Roll on indent for the period 2014-19 amounting to Rs
26,378.47 Crs has been placed on OFB.
29 capital procurement projects amounting to Rs 28621.70 Crs with likely cash outgo of Rs 3619.51 Crs are at advanced stages of
approval. Ammunition with recurring large annual training requirement and high cost has been informed to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Ordnance Factory Board(OFB) for indigenous development.'


War Wastage Reserves

(a) Annual Priority Procurement Plan (PPP) has been formalized and being
closely monitored.
(b) Financial Powers of Service HQ enhanced for procurement of ordnance
items. This will expedite the procurement cycle and making up deficiencies of
equipment and ammunition of ordnance origin.
(c) A system of long term five years roll on indents has been introduced and a
road map on ammunition has been approved which envisages procurement eximport
and ex-trade to build up adequate targeted stocks along with three years
training requirement. An institutionalized mechanism in the form of Working Group
to review critical items of ammunitions and issues of spares, barrels, overhaul
programme of infantry and mechanized forces have also been set up.'

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Oct 2016 20:05

Thanks Karan

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 15 Oct 2016 20:40

IAF orders placed already, current GOI:

Contracts signed during 2015-16
EO/IR Payload for MI-17 V5
Ground Based Mobile Elint Systems (GBMES)
Additional Cheetal Helicopters
Thermal acquisition binocular for Garud
Attack Helicopters
Heavy Lift Helicopters (HLH)
Additional IACCS Nodes and Associated System
Microlight
Light Weight Portable Laser Target Designator
Full Mission Simulator for Su-30


Contracts underway/in progress/some signed already
1. 2xADDL AWACS
2. Spice -2000 NGPGM
3. Software Defined Radios
4. 6+ EO/IR + SAR Recce PODS for SU- 30
5. MLH Upgrade
6. 14xFUs of Akash MK-I
7. Additional -130 j 30
8. ARMT for ALH WSI
9. 6xFlight Refuelling Aircraft
10. Jaguar Re-Enginning
11. Avionics UPG for IL-76/78/AWACS
12 38xPC & MK-II
13. D-26EW System for MIG-29
14. 48 X MLH
15. 20X Additioan Hawk
16. 56 x AVRO Replacement
17. 65 x Ka 226-T RSH
18. LR SAM

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 15 Oct 2016 23:46

phalcons refuellers and Jag reengining are no where in sight. What is MLH ?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Karan M » 16 Oct 2016 01:59

Medium Lift Heli I presume.. basically more Mi-17s.

About reengining, FRAs etc,

Raha saar
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... f_2016.htm

IS: Fighter jets: The MMRCA completion was scrapped in favour of a direct deal with France, whose Rafale was selected by the Indian Air Force (IAF). The aircraft is expensive, and the number asked for-36- is too small. IAF had planned for 126+63 aircraft for the MMRCA competition in 2007. That requirement should now be touching 300, as more of its existing aircraft are due for phase-out. Could you give an update on the IAF’s fighter fleet?

AR: The Ministry of Defence has prepared a road-map for induction of fighter aircraft in the IAF with an aim to build up to the sanctioned strength of 42 fighter squadrons at the earliest. Various options are being considered by MoD. To start with, the deal for procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft has been signed and it will greatly enhance the operational capability of the IAF. We should receive the first aircraft in 36 months time and delivery of all aircraft would be completed in 66 months. Meanwhile, upgrade programmes of Mirage-2000, MiG-29 and Jaguar fleets are progressing well. The LCA has also been inducted and manufacturing of another type of Fighter aircraft under the ‘Make in India’ initiative is also being considered by the Government.


He said there had been some delays but upgrade of the Jaguar with new engines and avionics is likely to be finalised soon. The MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 are already on upgrades.


IS: IAF’s decision to acquire Airbus A330 MRTT has been reversed. That should affect your plans. Is IAF looking afresh at newer systems, now that Boeing has also put its latest tankers in the market? What are the options now? We have been told earlier that IAF plans for 100 per cent midair refuelling capability?

AR: The IAF has been pursuing the case for acquisition of additional Flight Refueller Aircraft. This case is being progressed based on Total Cost of Acquisition model which considers the Life Cycle Costs. Various options are being considered to ensure that the Flight Refuelling Aircraft are acquired at the earliest with emphasis on meeting our operational requirements.

IS: Helicopters: IAF is acquiring Chinook and Apache helicopters from the US, as also Mi-17s from Russia. There are still some more requirements, like larger numbers of these choppers, utility helicopters and VVIP requirements. Your comments please?

AR: A case is under progress for procurement of 200 Kamov 226 T helicopters from Russia under an Inter-Governmental Agreement. Out of 200 helicopters, 140 would be coproduced by a Joint Venture between the Russian companies and HAL. 65 out of the 200 helicopters will be inducted in the IAF. Subsequently, based on the success of 2-3 Tonne class indigenous LUH being designed and developed by HAL, balance requirement of helicopters in the Light Utility category will be progressed. Both these helicopters are planned to replace Cheetah and Chetak fleets of the IAF. At present, Mi-17 V5 helicopters are being utilised to meet VVIP requirements.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Gyan » 16 Oct 2016 13:41

Karan M wrote:On how budgets for future programs were delayed, and current GOI focus

‘Every year budget requirement is projected by DRDO based on the ongoing
projects/programmes and futuristic requirements. Nearly, 80% of total budget is
being utilised on Mission Mode (MM) Projects with deliverables for Armed Forces.
Short falls in budget affect Technology Development (TD), Science and Technology
(S&T), Development of Infrastructure and Facilities (IF), and projects related to
Product Support (PS). Due to shortage of funds, projects and other ongoing
activities are re-prioritized.
Government is making all possible efforts to meet the
budgetary requirement of DRDO, within the available resources, so that its flagship
programmes do not suffer due to lack of funds’.


Recent inductions for Services are:

For the Forces viz. Army, Navy and Air force - Army: Prithvi, Agni, Akash,
BrahMos, Lakshya Nishant, MBT Arjun Mk-I, AAD Mk-I, AERV, Sarvatra, Pinaka,
ROV, Radar-3D TCR, WLR, BFSR, Samyukta EW, DivyaDrishti and Samvahak.
Navy: Dhanush, LRSAM, BrahMos, Sangraha EW, Varuna ESM, Dolphin ESM,
Humsa NG, USHUS,TAL, Revathi – Radar, Maareech, Varunasta, Submarines and
Escape Set. Air Force: Prithvi, Akash, MRSAM, Lakshya, Eagle EW, LCA Tejas,
AEW&C, Rohini, Aslesha, SAR-Radars, Avionics for MiG 29, Su-30, Laser Designator
cum TI, Aerial Delivery Systems and CPSS.


Does AAD MK-1 refer to BMD SAM AAD missile?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Aditya G » 16 Oct 2016 14:12

Plainspeak by Gen GD Bakshi on Surgical Strike.

He also hints that one of the covert strikes hit targets 12 Kms deep. This was prior to the hits on 29th Sept.


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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby prashanth » 16 Oct 2016 14:51

^^ Are editors and reporters of The Hindu listening??

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Aditya G » 16 Oct 2016 17:30

prashanth wrote:^^ Are editors and reporters of The Hindu listening??


Military veterans coming out in public forums and news channels is a direct reaction to commies and libtards having a free run over the dark decade that was UPA. Men like Major Gaurav Arya belong to the generation who is not going to silently retire and watch by sidelines while the award wapasi gang takes the country to the dogs.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby shiv » 16 Oct 2016 17:34

prashanth wrote:^^ Are editors and reporters of The Hindu listening??

It is important to keep the libtard sponsors of these mofos out of power. That is more vital than gloating now.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby deejay » 16 Oct 2016 17:54

Aditya G wrote:
prashanth wrote:^^ Are editors and reporters of The Hindu listening??


Military veterans coming out in public forums and news channels is a direct reaction to commies and libtards having a free run over the dark decade that was UPA. Men like Major Gaurav Arya belong to the generation who is not going to silently retire and watch by sidelines while the award wapasi gang takes the country to the dogs.


Yes and there are more avenues to make presence felt today than in the past. Respect for Maj Arya and his great service even as a a Veteran.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Rahul M » 16 Oct 2016 18:13

Aditya G wrote:Plainspeak by Gen GD Bakshi on Surgical Strike.

He also hints that one of the covert strikes hit targets 12 Kms deep. This was prior to the hits on 29th Sept.


all the videos of the event are worth a watch.

especially the difference b/w this attack and previous badla missions.


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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Aditya G » 16 Oct 2016 23:16

One particular difference between Operation Ginger (and like) vs SurgicalStrikes is that latter are not only Punitive but also Preventive. Preventive because it eliminated terrorists ripe for infiltrating into India. IIRC a report mentioned <150 militants were inside Kashmir. So by knocking of 50 at source you have severly degraded the pipeline.

While Ginger had a deterrence benefit, it was restricted up to division level. After 2016, every time LeTs and JeMs want to attack a military target, they will be overruled by ISI. Hence deterrence at strategic level.

1 Para SF had executed strikes in Bangladesh way back in 1995. But since nobody knew about it, and hence no deterrence value. Now somebody may argue that "those who need to know, know" - but i am not sure that applies in cultures like Pakistan where inconvenient truths are hushed up and never acknowledged.

In hindsight, Surgical Strikes followed the template set by Operations Peace closely. Pakis should have known this was coming;

At approximately 2.45 am on June 9, two teams from the 21 Para (Special Forces) quietly slipped into Myanmar on foot ‒ one team entering from Manipur and the other from Nagaland ‒ heading towards insurgent training camps of the National Socialist Council of Nagaland (Khaplang) group.

Code named Operation Peace 1 in the Manipur sector and Operation Peace 2 in Nagaland, this was a carefully deliberated act of retaliation for the insurgent attack in Manipur that killed 18 soldiers of a Dogra battalion on June 4. The Indian army had not seen such high casualties in over a decade and the Indian government was clearly looking for options to retaliate quickly.

The National Security Adviser, AK Doval, a former director of the Intelligence Bureau with years of experience in the North East, was clear that a surgical strike against the insurgents was the only option left for India. A few days before the operation took off, Doval went into a huddle with the Union home and defence ministers and the two intelligence chiefs – Dineshwar Sharma of the IB and Rajinder Khanna of the Research and Analysis Wing – to finalise the retaliatory strike.

Among the options that were examined was a surgical strike by the Indian Air Force, using precision guided missiles launched from the Indian side into Myanmar. However, the option was quickly dismissed since it could easily be construed as an act of war and could lead to heavy civilian casualties. The six key people involved in the planning agreed that the retaliation had to be manageable but deadly enough to establish New Delhi’s intent to hit back at the insurgents with precision on their turf.

....

After much deliberation, the five decision-makers sat down with army chief, Dalbir Singh Suhag, to finalise a plan to use the Indian military to conduct the retaliatory strike. Doval also contended that since the Indian Army had suffered casualties, it was their prerogative to strike back at the militants. Khanna agreed and deployed his intelligence assets to identify the NSCN (K) camps that would be targeted.

The decision on who would hit the camps was a forgone conclusion. The only troops capable of carrying out such a delicate operation was secretive unit known as 21 Para (Special Forces).

Forging a new legacy

The success of the June 9 operation has demonstrated the need for India’s military to re-examine the use of its Special Forces. As the top security leadership grappled with options to retaliate against the insurgents, it fell on 21 Para (Special Forces) as the only unit to carry out such a delicate operation. A failure would mean international embarrassment, a major diplomatic fallout and embolden the insurgents to hit targets in India with impunity. At the very least, this could prove disastrous for the men who had been inserted covertly into Myanmar to carry out the operation.

In the early hours of June 9, a team from 21 Para (Special Forces) led by a veteran Manipuri officer entered Myanmar on foot from Manipur. Another team was launched simultaneously into Myanmar from Nagaland, to target a NSCN (K) camp in Aungzeya. The team led by the Manipuri officer headed for a PLA camp in the south, closer to the town of Kalaymyo. This was not the first time India’s Special Forces had slipped across an international border to hit strategic targets. In 1995, a team from 1 Para (Special Forces) was sent into Bangladesh to hit insurgent camps operating out of Sylhet district. Since 2000, retaliatory strikes have been regularly conducted across the Line of Control by Indian Special Forces to dissuade the Pakistani military from sending in militants into the Kashmir Valley.

But what distinguished the Myanmar operation was a deliberate strategy to leak out key details to signal intent. Deterrence is a key strategy that has driven military doctrines throughout history. It is not clear how and why the two insurgent camps were chosen for the assault. The NSCN (K) camp was deserted as the first team arrived, and found that the cadres had disappeared into the jungles fearing a strike.

A signal of intent

The other team found a sleepy but populated insurgent PLA camp that had been sending insurgents into Manipur for years. “The PLA was not behind the earlier attack on the Dogra battalion, but the intention was to ensure that a message goes out to all the insurgent groups,” according to a senior intelligence official familiar with the raid. By morning, as dawn broke, the Special Forces team had set out for the Indian border when several Dhruv helicopters from the Indian army’s aviation regiment took off to bring the troops back home.

For the first time, an Indian government took a strategic decision to deliberately leak the information about the operation to the world. Through carefully worded briefings and press releases, it made it clear in no uncertain terms that insurgent camps had been hit by Indian Special Forces. The decision to leak the news was preceded by intense discussions between the principal decision-makers. Finally, Doval’s argument convinced Prime Minister Narendra Modi that there was merit in leaking out the news informally. Doval argued, said officials familiar with the decision, that unless the intent and the reach was not publicised, India would never be able to establish deterrence. The US had released the transcript of a detailed briefing within hours of the Abbottabad raid that killed al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in 2011 for precisely the same reasons articulated by Doval. It wanted to signal its reach and intent to go after its enemies in faraway lands as a measure of deterrence.

....

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby rohitvats » 17 Oct 2016 01:59

This is especially for Singha - Video of unarmed combat demo in the IA. This one seems to have been shot on a mobile phone. Pretty interesting stuff. The point where he snatches the pistol from the opponent is quite slick.


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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2016 06:21

Wow Rohit, that dude is amazing. He makes it look so damn easy.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Oct 2016 07:45

Is this IA or paramilitary? Instructor is from north east. Clearly an experienced instructor as he keeps reinforcing the key points of each technique. Feel sorry for the young sardar 'helping' with the demo. :mrgreen:

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby deejay » 17 Oct 2016 08:10

Raja Bose wrote:Is this IA or paramilitary? Instructor is from north east. Clearly an experienced instructor as he keeps reinforcing the key points of each technique. Feel sorry for the young sardar 'helping' with the demo. :mrgreen:


Its always a pain being a demo partner in Unarmed Combat. :mrgreen:

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2016 08:33

Raja Bose wrote:Is this IA or paramilitary? Instructor is from north east. Clearly an experienced instructor as he keeps reinforcing the key points of each technique. Feel sorry for the young sardar 'helping' with the demo. :mrgreen:

Definitely. But he actually gets up. If I was in his place I would go down and stay down

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby wig » 17 Oct 2016 09:03

http://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/ind ... e-loc.html
there was no surgical strike. What the Indian Army did to seven Pakistan Army-guarded terrorist launchpads across the Line of Control was a covert commando operation. An eminently successful one at that.

A surgical strike, says the Macmillan Dictionary, is “a military attack, especially by air, that is designed to destroy something specific and to avoid wider damage”. The common military understanding is that it is an attack carried out without warning and intended to deal only with a specific target. Such operations are quick and covert, but the result is left open for the world to see. The classic example is Israel’s air raid on Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981.

What the Indian Army did on the night of September 28-29 was a slow and laborious operation, which had troops creeping, climbing and crawling across the LoC and across two kilometres of rugged terrain, avoiding stepping on land-mines or alerting village dogs, reaching largely undefended targets, catching the enemy off-guard, killing him and destroying his camp in the dark. No photos sent, no bodies carried back, no trophies. But they did it.

As much was conceded, though inadvertently, by Air Marshal (retd) Shahzad Chaudhry of the Pakistan Air Force: “What India has done is an LoC violation. Not a surgical strike.”

The Indian Army had done it earlier, too (see graphics). Pointed out Lt Gen Hardev Singh Lidder, former chief of Integrated Defence Staff and veteran special forces officer: “We have had strikes earlier, but those were mostly local. This is the first time that strikes were carried out as a national policy.”

The idea of a covert counterstrike was mooted on September 18 night, when Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and Army chief Dalbir Singh Suhag were flying back to Delhi from the brigade headquarters in Uri, where 18 soldiers had been killed in a terror strike early that morning. Parrikar wanted the general to give him a few actionable options that they could present to Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the cabinet committee on security the following day.

Meanwhile, Modi had been in touch with National Security Adviser Ajit Doval. He wanted to know whether the attack had a confirmed Pakistani link. Yes, said Doval. A GPS set found on the attackers had shown that they had come from across the LoC.

That night, on Gen Suhag’s orders, the directorate-general of military operations headed by Lt Gen Ranbir Singh burnt the midnight oil. Doval ordered all intelligence inputs, from the National Technical Research Organisation (NTRO), the Research and Analysis Wing, and the Intelligence Bureau, to be made available to the DGMO. But Ranbir Singh had a problem. The Army’s Northern Command had informed him of the existence of 30-odd launchpads across the LoC within striking distance, but they had all been emptied out immediately after the Uri attack. Yes, the Pakistanis were expecting payback.

A launchpad, as an officer explained to THE WEEK, is like a bus shelter. The training camps, mostly run by ex-army officers on the payroll of outfits like Lashkar-e-Taiba, are deep inside Pakistan-occupied Kashmir—often 30 to 40km inside. From there, the trained boys are taken to the launchpads, where they spend days until the coast is clear for infiltration. Guides, mostly villagers and double agents, take them across the LoC.

At the cabinet committee on security the following day, the Army’s proposals (“not one, but several,” said a senior officer) were discussed. An in-principle clearance for an operation was given. (The final clearance would come a week later.) Meanwhile, Doval advised the committee to discuss other options like revisiting the Indus Water Treaty, stopping trade and suspending diplomatic relations. “All that talk created the clutter that we wanted,” said the officer. “It also lured the enemy into thinking that we wouldn’t hit back.”

The trick worked. “In a few days, we had inputs that the launchpads were again getting peopled,” said the officer. The enemy had an urgency. It would start snowing in a few days and the infiltration routes would get blocked.

Once the in-principle go-ahead was issued, Modi called on President Pranab Mukherjee and briefed him. On September 20, Doval told the PM that a defensive approach would not suffice this time. “We need to be offensive-defensive,” he is said to have told Modi.

Once Modi charged him with overseeing what could be done, the first thing Doval did was to “empower” the chiefs of the forces, the various intelligence gathering units and the surveillance agencies to forget procedural clearances. “If there are any glitches, sort them out yourselves. Share as much as you can among yourselves,” Doval is said to have told them.

The chiefs did not have a problem. They knew that the Army had resorted to cross-LoC actions several times in the past, but it was the first time they were being asked by the political leadership to do it. All such actions in the past had been cleared at the brigade, division, corps or command level.

The political clearance eased things. For the first time, the agencies opened their operational rooms to other agencies. The uphill task was to decipher the satellite imagery and provide real-time technical intelligence to the Army’s Northern Command headquarters in Udhampur, which would have to supervise the strike. “For any intelligence agency, assets and techniques are paramount,” explained an NTRO officer. “They cannot be accessed by even the chiefs of other agencies. For the first time, we allowed the Army inside our base and they allowed our men. At both the locations, our men were sitting together. As a result, what would have taken five to eight hours for one agency to decipher, was done in five minutes.”

Meanwhile, the Northern Command, headed by Lt Gen D.S. Hooda, was making its own assessments. He had the freedom to choose the targets. The morale of the military was paramount. So was the timing. Hooda asked the formation commanders under him to identify 150 commandos for a few tasks. The commanders chose three broad target areas which fell under the 19 Division (Uri), 28 Division (Kupwara) and 25 Division (Rajouri). By then, the military’s own intelligence, too, had provided targets across Uri, Poonch and Bhimber sectors.

But who would do the strikes? It had to be a commando operation undertaken by the special forces. The two units chosen for the task were the Udhampur-based 9 Para (SF) and 4 Para (SF), commanded by Col Kapil Yadav and Col J.S. Sandhu, respectively.

An SF battalion comprises four assault teams which have close to 100 men. The teams are further divided into three assault troops comprising 24 men, supported by troopers who operate heavy weapons such as RPO7 flamethrowers and PK machine guns. But Hooda correctly assessed that the operation could not just be ‘outsourced’ to the special forces. The units that had taken the terrorist hit at Uri would like to have their pound of flesh. So a few Ghatak commandos of the 10 Dogra, 6 Bihar and 19 Punjab, which are otherwise regular infantry, were also selected. They were to avenge the death of their buddies.

Hooda now ordered a few diversionary activities. Formations were told to move troops along the 250km arc from Uri to Rajouri sectors on the LoC to confuse the enemy. Artillery batteries were asked to open up all along to keep the Pakistani posts engaged. The IAF’s Western Command also chipped in. It restarted its Exercise Talon, which had been put on hold because of a mishap involving a Jaguar deep-strike aircraft in Ambala. As the airspace on the Indian side got saturated with Indian fighter flying, the Pakistan Air Force suspended all civilian air activity over PoK and Gilgit-Baltistan, and kept its air defences on high alert.

When Modi was addressing BJP workers in Kozhikode in Kerala on September 24, Lt Gen Ranbir Singh was conferring with Lt Gen Satish Dua, commander of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, and Lt Gen N.N. Nimbhorkar, commander of the Nagrota-based 16 Corps. And, in an undisclosed location, the SF troopers were practising strikes.

As soon as Modi returned from Kozhikode, there were further diversionary tactics at the political and diplomatic level. On September 26, he summoned experts and explored the possibility of choking the Indus waters. As think-tanks, the media and the government’s spin-doctors discussed the pluses and minuses of the move, others speculated on how China would hit back by choking the Brahmaputra. The spin the following day was about severing trade ties and diplomatic links.

The final go-ahead was given on September 27. A couple of hours before the H-Hour, the Kupwara division intensified small arms and mortar fire. By then, the assault troops of 24 each from 9 Para (SF) and 4 Para (SF) had been divided into four groups of 12 each. They had been taken by helicopters to four locations on the Indian side of the LoC in Kel, Tutmari Gali, Nangi Tekri and Baalnoi post in Mendhar sector. “No helicopter flew to the other side,” said an officer.

A couple of teams slipped out between the Beloni and Nangi Tekri battalion areas in Poonch sector and across the Tutmari Gali in the Nowgam sector. The Ghatak teams were pushed in separately, but they were told that the assault would be made by the para commandos. They could join the fight and kill, if the enemy opened fire on the commandos on their way back.

Around 11pm on September 28, Parrikar and Doval reached the Army’s operations room. Gen Suhag was waiting for them. The three had skipped a dinner hosted by the Coast Guard chief for his commanders’ conference.

The Ghatak teams had crossed the LoC the previous evening, and had been lying in wait. The idea was that even if they were caught, the Pak troopers would have thought of them as teams who had come to avenge the killing of their buddies. Any exchange of fire with them would have also been a diversionary tactic from the main operation.

About an hour after the midnight of September 28, the commandos crossed the barbed-wire fences, which in most places are about a kilometre short of the LoC. There was a nip in the night air, a sign of the approaching winter. In a few days, there would be snowfall, and the passes and tracks would become difficult to traverse. That also meant another certainty, confirmed by the NTRO’s decoded maps: the launchpads had been peopled again with infiltrators. “The enemy had evacuated all launchpads immediately after the Uri attack,” said an officer. “But the boys were brought back because they had to be sent across before the passes got blocked.”

How did the commandos get to know of the tracks? “Didn’t you know of the guides on the LoC?” asked an officer. “There are local villagers who help the infiltrators. They also help us. Some are from our side; some from the other.”

By around 1am, most teams had traversed the stretch between the fence and the LoC, and crossed into enemy territory. They hardly carried any electronic equipment, for fear of being caught by the enemy’s electronic sensors. They knew the coordinates of the terrorist launchpads from the satellite images provided by the NTRO. A few maps had also shown unusual activity at some of the launchpads on previous days.

The commandos knew one thing for sure. The boys at the launchpads would not be armed. The Pak army never allowed terrorists to roam around the nearby villages with arms. They were given arms only when their mission began.

The SF troops, wearing jungle camouflage, walked slowly with the aid of night vision devices and night sights on their Tavor rifles, and reached their designated targets. There was little resistance from the Pakistan troops. Most pickets on the LoC were still being engaged by the Indian small arms fire. The few soldiers who were guarding the launchpads were gunned down in no time.

As the SF troops reached the villages housing the launchpads, they barged into the buildings and used the Russian RPO7 flamethrowers, which created a temperature of 3,000 degrees Celsius and caused massive explosions. Once they reached their targets, it was more of an arson exercise than actually engaging the enemy in combat.
he job was done in less than 40 minutes in most target areas. The commandos returned before daybreak with Ghatak troopers guarding their rear. “Once the troops returned to their launch bases, helicopters were sent to fetch the officers, who were lifted straight to Udhampur and Nagrota for debriefing,” said the officer. Overall, the operations lasted almost four hours. Four to five launchpads (whether one was actually a launchpad or an abandoned village hut was not certain), located up to 2km deep in enemy territory, had been destroyed.

How many did they kill? The Army is not giving specific numbers, because “they just set fire to the launchpads and made quick exit. No one knows how many were there inside.” The estimate is 40 to 45 killed, based on estimates of the number of persons each launchpad can hold. But five launchpads and two Pakistan army posts—which were co-located with the launchpads—were destroyed and all occupants killed. The most realistic estimate is that about 30 were killed in three launchpads.

A statement released by Pakistan’s Inter Services Public Relations said, “At least two armymen were killed as Indian and Pakistani troops exchanged fire over the LoC in Azad Jammu and Kashmir.” A few hours later, ISPR released the photographs of the dead soldiers, havildars Jumma Khan and Naik Imtiaz. The casualty on the Indian side? Two para commandos injured in land-mine blasts on their way back.

By 4.30am on September 30, the operation was declared successful and Modi was briefed. The PM was not shown a “live telecast” of the operation, as reported by some.

Early morning, Lt Gen Ranbir Singh called up his Pakistani counterpart, Maj Gen Sahir Shamshad Mirza, who had taken over recently as director-general of military operations, and told him that India had struck at the launchpads in the territory under his control.

Uri was avenged.
Last edited by wig on 17 Oct 2016 10:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Pratyush » 17 Oct 2016 09:10

This is the argument being used by doubters. We are so blessed by having such SLIME's in the contry. NOT!

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Oct 2016 09:19

deejay wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Is this IA or paramilitary? Instructor is from north east. Clearly an experienced instructor as he keeps reinforcing the key points of each technique. Feel sorry for the young sardar 'helping' with the demo. :mrgreen:


Its always a pain being a demo partner in Unarmed Combat. :mrgreen:


Even more painful (to mard ego and body) when the instructor is female. Don't ask me how I know. :oops: :oops:

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2016 09:27

I don't care for dictionary definition. If DGMO says it was surgical strike, so it is a surgical strike.
Folks I don't appreciate further doubting Thomases aka SLIME reports on Bharat Rakshak Forum. Its no longer just discussion.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2016 09:41

Pratyush wrote:This is the argument being used by doubters. We are so blessed by having such SLIME's in the contry. NOT!

These f**kers as well as the dictionary writers do not know what surgery means. It has nothing to do with time or stealth. It is precision. Buffoons all.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Raja Bose » 17 Oct 2016 11:12

It is a slime article artfully written under pretext of being neutral while trying to tomtom the paki viewpoint (surgical means airstrike blah blah). And bunch of unsuspecting readers are going wah wah in the comments sections instead of slapping the authors silly with verbal chappals.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Oct 2016 12:43

Raja Bose wrote:Is this IA or paramilitary? Instructor is from north east. Clearly an experienced instructor as he keeps reinforcing the key points of each technique. Feel sorry for the young sardar 'helping' with the demo. :mrgreen:


Raja, Assam regt is full of North East boys, could also be 3 Para, or he could be from one of the all class regts like Guards or Para. Or even from the supporting arms - arty or Engrs.

Rohit, technique 1 in pistol disarm is for Ustaads only. Too much can go wrong -enemy hand can be stuck in the grip or trigger, and much more.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Oct 2016 12:55

Can we change this thread to Army strikes terror in camps in POK ? I always read that when I open the thread.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby rohitvats » 17 Oct 2016 13:37

Akshay Kapoor wrote: Raja, Assam regt is full of North East boys, could also be 3 Para, or he could be from one of the all class regts like Guards or Para. Or even from the supporting arms - arty or Engrs. Rohit, technique 1 in pistol disarm is for Ustaads only. Too much can go wrong -enemy hand can be stuck in the grip or trigger, and much more.


Your comment about NE boys brings back a pleasant memory - at one point in time, our Sahayak was a young chap from Nagaland. As you'd expect, soft spoken, good spoken English and pretty smart.

Guess what? He used to exchange cassettes of latest English boy-band groups with my brother (Yes, I'm that old when we used to have cassettes). And his style quotient was amazing - there is a natural panache in NE young people from Nagaland. Even got us some awesome stuff which they used to get from Myanmar. Had a hot GF back home and used to share stories with us.

BTW -- the troops are definitely from the IA. And instructor is an officer for sure, given his comfort level around the troops. I happened to see similar snippet of unarmed combat in the Discovery Channel programme on SF probation.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Oct 2016 13:59

You are quite right - instructor is an officer. His Hindi is very good. How did I miss that.

Was your dad from Assam Regt ?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby ks_sachin » 17 Oct 2016 14:35

Assam Rifles deputation?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby rohitvats » 17 Oct 2016 17:57

Akshay Kapoor wrote:You are quite right - instructor is an officer. His Hindi is very good. How did I miss that.

Was your dad from Assam Regt ?


No, Sir. He is ex-AMC. But not a doctor. Non-technical officer. AMC has a small cadre of officers who've taken commission from ranks and look primarily after administrative tasks like QM, Company Commander (in hospitals or training center), Assistant Registrar etc. Record Officer in Center is always non-technical officer. Can go up to Brigadier rank within AMC.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 17 Oct 2016 18:31

Thanks Rohit.

Ask your dad if he knows Col Dr Vijay Panoli (Para and PBG). He has a horror story to tell about Barkha Dutt. He was Comdt or Dy Comdt of base hospital during Kargil and Barkha wanted wounded jawans/offrs laid out in a particular way for camera and was getting heavily in way of treatment. Col Panoli threw her out.

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Mihir » 17 Oct 2016 19:36

Apart from needlessly nitpicking the nomenclature, what's wrong with that article in The Week? It has high praise for the way the political and military leadership acted in concert to make the operation a success and explains very well why it was a very challenging mission. It also lays to rest any doubts that it was a routine cross-border strike.

It even got panned by some of the usual suspects in the media for the use of "jingoistic" language.

What am I missing?

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Re: Army strikes terror camps in PoK

Postby Rakesh » 17 Oct 2016 20:50

Mihir: The nomenclature is what is wrong. If the Army calls it surgical strike, then surgical strike it is. Why call it by another name?


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