Army strikes terror camps in PoK

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2016 13:59

gauravsh wrote:<SNIP>OT, but i remember someone i know who says otherwise on the corrupt thing. He was particularly very critical of him during his days in Leh.

He had an abrasive style and a sharp tongue. For this, he was famous across the army.

But I'll be damned if someone says he was corrupt. He is known to have initiated inquiry because he felt the size of eggs being procured were smaller than average and this was robbing the troops of their proper diet+calories!

gauravsh · Post by **gauravsh** » 12 Oct 2016 14:05

^^^
Saar, different people different perception. He made a lot of money using BRO and victimized anyone who crossed him.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 12 Oct 2016 14:10

rohitvats wrote:
gauravsh wrote:<SNIP>OT, but i remember someone i know who says otherwise on the corrupt thing. He was particularly very critical of him during his days in Leh.
He had an abrasive style and a sharp tongue. For this, he was famous across the army.

But I'll be damned if someone says he was corrupt. He is known to have initiated inquiry because he felt the size of eggs being procured were smaller than average and this was robbing the troops of their proper diet+calories!

It's possible that both of you are correct, especially if your information may come from non-overlapping sources. It's all abut perception.

But this is not about Gen. Panag's past in the army. This is about the present. Now he's a politician affiliated with retrograde, anarchist party which has attempted to muddy the political waters in exactly the same manner that Gen. Panag accuses the ruling party of doing so.

The latter half of his write up is slanted, lacks objectivity and displays an abject understanding of international affairs and democracy when he harps on "Pakistan's smart response". He comes across as no different from the small-mined "dear leader" of the party of his.

If Gen. Panag's achievements in the past a serviceman are commendable, his actions as a politco are condemnable for the reasons described above. Just because he had a distinguished career in the armed forces does not grant him the leeway to spout nonsense. He'll be rightly called out on it.

shyamal · Post by **shyamal** » 12 Oct 2016 15:06

Pampore standoff comes to an end
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... d-3078508/

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Oct 2016 16:16

Kashi wrote:<SNIP>The latter half of his write up is slanted, lacks objectivity and displays an abject understanding of international affairs and democracy when he harps on "Pakistan's smart response". He comes across as no different from the small-mined "dear leader" of the party of his.

If Gen. Panag's achievements in the past a serviceman are commendable, his actions as a politco are condemnable for the reasons described above. Just because he had a distinguished career in the armed forces does not grant him the leeway to spout nonsense. He'll be rightly called out on it.

And I'm not disputing your right to criticize him on these grounds. Heck, he's blocked me on Twitter because I called him out for taking a certain POV only because he is anti-BJP and supports AAP because his daughter is part of that outfit!

My only point was about branding someone like him as anti-national and passing disparaging comments on his Service record.

Don't pass all encompassing comments - please ensure you don't loose context.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Oct 2016 16:25

that pampore entrepreneurship building iirc was attacked a few months ago in similar manner.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Oct 2016 16:28

Panag is a gone case, that he has deliberately undercut national will on two occasions. Pathankot strike and now this one. He's an AAPiya and their task is to make people into..rhymes with AAPiya.

now, more to the point parrikar apparently made some speech today..and implied the raid was not a one off. if do, finally. we are getting steps in place.

also openly confirmed 120 tejas order.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Oct 2016 16:58

Sad though. Very sad. Close to treason. And then Ajai Shukla. I do find it hard to address these gents by rank. The entire nation is happy with the strike, fauji community morale is finally sky high and these jokers undermine it. I hope they are ostracised from the fauji communities.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Oct 2016 17:01

, I have seen people with tears in their eyes saying I never thought they would see this day ( strikes) and these people undermine it. I have lost al respect for Panag.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Oct 2016 17:10

fauji guys akshay saar? just shows how morale is such a vital thing for all of us.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Oct 2016 18:15

Yes fauji guys. Morale is crucial. It is one of the most important battle winning factors. That's why izzat is so important to the army. Hard to explain it in words.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Oct 2016 20:29

Akshay Kapoor, Thanks for the insight. Precisely because of his background, I believe Maj. Gen. G.D. Bakshi that precision artillery rounds were used.
On Lt Gen Panag, we should look at his comments on the military aspect and ignore his political comments as he has certain baggage now.

Folks our elders said "Neera Khseera Viveka!"
Learn to separate milk from water.

My father used to joke Aqueous Palus!

Palu is milk in Telugu.

I too got emails about many folks getting tears of joy that surgical strike on 250 km front and depth of 0.5 km to 3km deep with targets neutralized upto 20 km by arty fire is more like an amputation and not an incision.

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 12 Oct 2016 21:24

I'm not sure why there is such a discussion raging about what ordinance was used. We know the action comprised 'suppressing' arty on PA bases along a long front, which gave the added effect of being a diversion for a stealthier on-foot action across the LoC at several points, destroying several targets.

From my POV, I'm sure they used "heavy" and "loud" stuff on the PA bases, while I'd guess some things that are much quieter, though just as lethal, on the launchpads.

I would guess (from my naive POV) that RPO Shmels firing the thermobaric rounds would make quite a ruckus. I would guess that a 'well informed source' leaked "flame throwers" and a journo investigated the inventory and assumed he meant the RPO Shmel. From what I gather (almost speculatively) that same journo said the Paras "barged into the building and fired their RPO Shmel". Never having had any experience with such things, I can only wonder that one wouldn't want to be in the building into which one is firing a thermobaric weapon!

If something "heavy" and "loud" like an RPO Shmel was used at all, it would have been after the element of surprise was already lost. So, I can well imagine that a truckload or two of responding PA soldiers got "Shmelled" but I cannot imagine it being part of the raid itself.

Considering how everyone got back with only a slight injury by one SF member, and remembering that the surprise was total; it strongly suggests that silenced weapons and quiet methods were used on the launchpads. That's just my two paise.

As for using the precision arty; I think that system requires a 'forward observer' to lase the targets. There is a UHF dialogue between the gunner and the spotter, such that the gun signals the spotter when the round is inbound, meaning the laser is on a very short time. If this was used on PA bases 20km inside PoK, and considering the laser designator has a range of 5km, it would mean that the forward insertion was 15km inside; or otherwise that R&AW has assets there with this equipment. (Is there an airborne laser in the inventory with a greater range, like on the Heron, perhaps? I know the SAR works well beyond this range. Can the SAR be used to 'paint' a target for arty?)

Another thing I was curious about: I have not read the Koran and know very little about Islamic ideology. I think someone earlier in this thread remarked that there is supposed to be no access to heaven for those who have been burnt and die in flames. Is this true? If this is true, it might have been a motivating factor for the use of flamethrowers.

BTW: Armen T is correct, the Convention on Certain Weapons does restrict flamethrower usage against civilians or civilian targets, HOWEVER I don't think anyone would argue on behalf of civilians over-nighting on a terrorist launchpad, even in PoK.

BESIDES: I rather like the idea of Paras sneaking-up on the sentries and taking their lives quietly, setting everything on fire before they know what's going on. This scenario is much more terrifying for terrorists, than the sound of incoming arty. JMT.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 12 Oct 2016 22:29

^^
Since the Uri victims succumbed to fire, it is a befitting reply by our side.

And yes, in Islam entry to the pearly gates is forbidden with cremation although Allah can 'resurrect' the body once cremated and thus allow entry into heaven. Most Islamic codes were adopted from Jewish practice in the area and hence this follows the Judaic tradition of banning cremation. The only exception is if the person was killed in a manner that allowed no mortal remains, eg. the holocaust victims in the camps where the families did bury their ashes.

Thus, it may serve as a deterrent to Jihadis if they knew their remains would not be buried but cremated. However, I doubt the Islamic community would permit that action - even if it is a terrorist.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Oct 2016 23:15

From a utilitarian perspective, cremation is much more eco-friendly than miles of buried coffins. Unless perhaps the deserts of Arabi can be used more productively. Just sayin'.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Oct 2016 23:37

Thanks akshay. Glad to know spirit is up. After all these years of political shackling. Now, I hope these raids continue. And SF, Ghatak - heck all IA are given their due share of blood & justice. Far too long.

Can somebody link the parrikar interview. A lot of whining from the usual opposition suspects. Important points were not highlighted by MSM, he did state this was not a one off. The TV ticker isntead kept flashing what clown prince, behenji et al thought.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 13 Oct 2016 00:43

Is this true? If this is true, it might have been a motivating factor for the use of flamethrowers.

Russia is doing it in Syria

https://thehornnews.com/russia-burning- ... sts-alive/

Israel buried the bodies of the terrorists with pigs thus denying them "Heaven and 72"

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 13 Oct 2016 03:41

SBajwa wrote:
Is this true? If this is true, it might have been a motivating factor for the use of flamethrowers.
Russia is doing it in Syria

https://thehornnews.com/russia-burning- ... sts-alive/

Israel buried the bodies of the terrorists with pigs thus denying them "Heaven and 72"

Israel controls the narrative and everything else. I doubt you could do this in India, our own Malsi's wouldn't let you. Heck the Turdesai and Burkha Bibi types would lead the opposition on this.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 13 Oct 2016 04:47

My hero is general Bakshi. If he was my CO I will be willing to die for him. I have the highest respect for the Indian army officers and I know some of them and their family members are on this board. I would not disrespect any Indian armed forces officers or soldiers.In my opinion Indian army officers are the best in the world and they lead from the front (Just look at the casualty statistics from any war or the Kargil war ) It is this man and he is a repeat offender.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 13 Oct 2016 05:41

SBajwa wrote:
Is this true? If this is true, it might have been a motivating factor for the use of flamethrowers.
Russia is doing it in Syria

https://thehornnews.com/russia-burning- ... sts-alive/

Israel buried the bodies of the terrorists with pigs thus denying them "Heaven and 72"

Israelis follow judaism and for them pork/pig is equally haraam as it is for jihadis, so why would they be willing to touch pigs just to ensure that jihadis go to hell?

Wouldn't this be case of cutting your nose to spite your face?

At least Russians and Americans and others (most of them atleast) will not have such compulsions.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Oct 2016 05:45

Going OT.
Rein it in.

ramana

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 13 Oct 2016 08:10

Our media needs to learn the usage of the word- former.

and it specially should be used for clowns like Ajai shukla.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Oct 2016 09:37

I think it was Gen. Bakshi who remarked in one of the TV shows, that the terrorists don't like getting burned because they do not get their 72 virgins. I could not believe that was being said openly on TV

I am sorry if I got the name wrong.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Oct 2016 10:03

Is this Vinod Sharma Congressi, Paki or just plane natural idiot.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 13 Oct 2016 10:22

After the Dawn newspaper it is now The Nation

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 815185.cms

Why can't Pakistan take action against Masood Azhar, Hafiz Saeed, asks daily

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 13 Oct 2016 10:24

Well, the Dog and Pony show should be allowed to continue in paki land. But keep preparing for ongoing surgeries.

la.khan · Post by **la.khan** » 13 Oct 2016 11:51

shyamal wrote:Pampore standoff comes to an end
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... d-3078508/

Once the pigs were trapped in the building, NSG should have been called. The Black Cats would have ended the misery in a 3-4 hours. Any specific reason the NSG wasn't called in?

Ravi Karumanchiri · Post by **Ravi Karumanchiri** » 13 Oct 2016 12:05

^^^^^^
Probably busy in Goa, securing sites for the BRICS summit, which is set to begin shortlee.

BTW: The cops here in my home town, the 'special ones', are in the practice of sending at least one truck in the opposite direction, whenever they get some kinds of 'weapons calls'. This is because high-end criminals are often known to create a diversion on one end of town, when they intend to rob some place on the other end of town.

Just because a couple of wannabe martyrs seize an empty building, is no reason to change your whole game plan.

And now that that chapter is over, the rush should be on to restoring the building to it's original condition, and putting it back to work, doing what it was supposed to do. That's where the rush should be on.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 13 Oct 2016 12:33

la.khan wrote:
shyamal wrote:Pampore standoff comes to an end
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... d-3078508/
Once the pigs were trapped in the building, NSG should have been called. The Black Cats would have ended the misery in a 3-4 hours. Any specific reason the NSG wasn't called in?

Urgency in time is an artificially created need. IA in valley has been dealing with these pigs since '89. Trust your Army. Give them the space and time and see the pigs getting killed with minimum casualties on our side. In a situation where pigs are holed up in a building without escape route, they are limited in time by ammo, food, fatigue and luck. IA is not. Just ride out. Trust me the pig feels helpless and really scared, every moment he lives like this. "The end times are near" and they are unable to hurt anybody. A double whammy for the pigs.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 13 Oct 2016 12:44

la.khan wrote:
shyamal wrote:Pampore standoff comes to an end
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... d-3078508/
Once the pigs were trapped in the building, NSG should have been called. The Black Cats would have ended the misery in a 3-4 hours. Any specific reason the NSG wasn't called in?

What's the hurry?

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Oct 2016 13:14

I think NSG is only used in extraordinary situations like 26/11 or Pathankot. Also the nearest NSG unit to Pampore is based in Delhi and they are busy guarding the Red Fort since there is a threat of terror attack to the building during Diwali

gaurav_w · Post by **gaurav_w** » 13 Oct 2016 14:56

NSG is employed in case of hostage like situation or even if there is a threat of hostages being taken. Same arose in Pathankot imo where the pigs were holed up close to residential quarters and NSG was called.Pampore once IA was sure of no hostages they had the pigs on the roast.And I agree that tactical commanders
shud nt be rushed. It is criminal to loose brave young trained men so tv anchors and audience is satisfied.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Oct 2016 15:09

la.khan wrote: Once the pigs were trapped in the building, NSG should have been called. The Black Cats would have ended the misery in a 3-4 hours. Any specific reason the NSG wasn't called in?

I think you are imagining things. If you have terrorists hiding in a building with 120 rooms (60 rooms+ 60 bathrooms) - you think there must be some magical method of getting them which NSG could do (other than bringing the whole building down).

I would be happy to hear you describe the manner in which they might do this - but I ask as a taunt because if you take the bait I am only going to show that it is not possible without risking casualties . When you can starve them out why finish the job in 2 hours? What is the hurry? Soldiers going home for Dussehra?

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 13 Oct 2016 16:36

snahata wrote:My hero is general Bakshi. If he was my CO I will be willing to die for him. I have the highest respect for the Indian army officers and I know some of them and their family members are on this board. I would not disrespect any Indian armed forces officers or soldiers.In my opinion Indian army officers are the best in the world and they lead from the front (Just look at the casualty statistics from any war or the Kargil war ) It is this man and he is a repeat offender.

Following the '65 and particularly the '71 war, as teenagers we were in total awe of the Indian armed forces. I remember asking this question of a young officer who had come to our school for a pep talk to the students. I asked him if it was true that the Indian soldiers and officers were the bravest and best in the world. The jingo in me desperately wanted to believe that to be the case. Of course it is true, he replied.

Later in my cynical years I looked back and thought, well, all soldiers in all armies are equally brave.

It took Kargil to remind me of the little incident back in school, and I am now a believer again

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 13 Oct 2016 17:15

Primusji, very true. Following Kargil (not on BRF but via DDM MSM) the bravery, sacrifice and the sad realities of war became clear to me. Getting hit in the eye with AK47 when attempting to capture a peak seems like an impossible job. Our officers and men did that. We can only hope that the GOI at that time had better reasons than we know about in open source to make them do that. As Tukaram Omble demonstrated, the much lampooned Pandu/Mama of Mumbai can stun many a rambos to silence. Time and again, the country has been served by the humble citizens with unparalleled bravery.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 13 Oct 2016 17:48

Prem wrote:Is this Vinod Sharma Congressi, Paki or just plane natural idiot.

you are assuming there is a difference between all three

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 13 Oct 2016 19:16

Gus wrote:
Prem wrote:Is this Vinod Sharma Congressi, Paki or just plane natural idiot.
you are assuming there is a difference between all three

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 13 Oct 2016 20:03

Prem wrote:Is this Vinod Sharma Congressi, Paki or just plane natural idiot.

its a creature much worse than that. i avoid any discussion that involves it.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 Oct 2016 21:12

Prem wrote:Is this Vinod Sharma Congressi, Paki or just plane natural idiot.

You missed the 'all of the above' option.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 13 Oct 2016 21:36

partha wrote:I think NSG is only used in extraordinary situations like 26/11 or Pathankot. Also the nearest NSG unit to Pampore is based in Delhi and they are busy guarding the Red Fort since there is a threat of terror attack to the building during Diwali

I believe that was the exact reason for this Pampore nautanki. 2 cannon fodders were asked to create a fortified stand off situation to pull in NSG from Delhi.

The second team in the waiting would have caused a mayhem in the relatively unprotected capital and "avenged the surgical strike".

we foiled the plan by not taking the bait and waiting it out.