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'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 06:27

Cosmo_R wrote:Good to know that the F-16 will be in service until 2048. By that time GoI will make a decision. To buy 36 F-16 Block 70s upgraded to MMLUs (many many midlife upgrades) ..at a unit cost in today's dollars of $650MM against a hard fought contest with SU-75s the stealth UANFVs (Unmanned Aerial Non Functional Vehicles) which are invisible to both enemy and buyer alike.

The Namo/Jet Li approach to security is no different than Mumble Mumble Singh's. They really don't get it.


right. the GOI should just become an extended US client state and buy some extra dooper special F-16s.
the Namo govt just doesn't get "it" - because clearly they need to be told about what's happening with PRC, Pak & hence all the emergency procurement to build up WWRs, improve serviceability is all for show & bluster.
or perhaps, just perhaps, the current dispensation knows exactly what the current state is of the respective services & how much improvement is possible via restocking, improving serviceability & iterative advancement, while striking the best possible deal with the Indian Govt's cash. as versus handing out gifts for unreliable vendors.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 16 May 2017 05:17

And here we go again....

DOGFIGHT: The Gripen vs F-16 For India
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/05/ ... fight.html

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 16 May 2017 05:24

Rakesh wrote:And here we go again....

DOGFIGHT: The Gripen vs F-16 For India
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/05/ ... fight.html


Facepalm (seriously).
Not aimed at Shiv Aroor but this cycle which never seems to die.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Neshant » 16 May 2017 10:54

Now they are talking about buying more Rafales. The ink has barely dried on the Rafales already purchased.

The arms import lobby has turned the procurement process into a joke.

Expensive foreign stuff is being purchased left and right without the slightest bit of planning.

They need to stop.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 16 May 2017 12:44

Neshant wrote:Now they are talking about buying more Rafales. The ink has barely dried on the Rafales already purchased.

The arms import lobby has turned the procurement process into a joke.

Expensive foreign stuff is being purchased left and right without the slightest bit of planning.

They need to stop.


Thats still better than buying another imported single engine fighter or even a twin engine in future as parrikar has said.

Buy the Rafale full hog and lic buid it in India , Increase IAF fleet standardisation and reduce logistics over head.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 16 May 2017 12:48

Yeah,$200M an aircraft. So for another $10B,you would get around 40-50 aircraft.For half that price you could get 150 MIG-35s and around 200 LCAs!!!

Even the Yanqui grandmas come in at around $65-70M a pop with all the bells and whistles.Costing double that of a better Russian bird. Remember that the MIG-29 (legacy) has kicked the F-16's backside in tests.

The Gripe..n will cost not less than $70M a pop,around the same cost as an MKI! Frankly,which bird would you prefer to have? What the IAF need is an interim solution for the short and med term until futuristic fighters arrive (FGFA and Super-Sukhoi with BMos).At the most,another sqd. of Rafales to bring the number upto 60. This will cost us $4-5B too! IT would however make numbers of the bird more satiufying for the money spent on infrastructure for it,and give the IAF a serious chance to evaluate it against other options in service,MIG-29UG,MKIs,LCAs,so that future acquisitions can be based upon both quality and cost. The Gripen preferred to the F-16,as the Pakis are v.familiar with the F-16 and will be forced to acquire a superior aircraft.

US operating the F-16 upto the '40s show that the JSF has been a huge cock-up programme-wise,and that hundreds of legacy fighters equipped with PGMs can do most of the biz as effectively.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chola » 16 May 2017 13:35

Time for Bharat to man up and build shit on our own by hook or crook. All this fvcking talk about paying again for Rafalr, Gripen. Feel the urge to punch something.

What the fvck good are all these TOTs for MKI and Hawk when we can't use anything we learn after their build runs? HAL always talking how they are 60, 70 percent indigenous.

I say fvck the limiting contracts and just go about it. Make MKIs for as long as we want and any variants we want. Same with the Hawk.

If Russians complain or Brits complain, negotiate engine deals with them.

Use our Hawk knowledge as a base for a single engine design. Use our Flanker knowledge to design something around the AL-31. Hell, reverse engineer the AL-31. HAL actually receives "manufacturing contracts" from the GOI for AL-31.

Tire of being the nice rule-following patsy on IP. It gets us nothing but repeated contracts of individual screwdrivergiri runs. Being a nice guy means you are a soft fvcking mark. All this talk about how following the rules keeps India in good company because phoreners "trusts" us with their latest technology. It's complete shit. They "trust" us because we pay and build only until contract ends so we can never become a competitor.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 16 May 2017 13:56

chola wrote:Time for Bharat to man up and build shit on our own by hook or crook. All this fvcking talk about paying again for Rafalr, Gripen. Feel the urge to punch something.

What the fvck good are all these TOTs for MKI and Hawk when we can't use anything we learn after their build runs? HAL always talking how they are 60, 70 percent indigenous.

I say fvck the limiting contracts and just go about it. Make MKIs for as long as we want and any variants we want. Same with the Hawk.

If Russians complain or Brits complain, negotiate engine deals with them.

Use our Hawk knowledge as a base for a single engine design. Use our Flanker knowledge to design something around the AL-31. Hell, reverse engineer the AL-31. HAL actually receives "manufacturing contracts" from the GOI for AL-31.

Tire of being the nice rule-following patsy on IP. It gets us nothing but repeated contracts of individual screwdrivergiri runs. Being a nice guy means you are a soft fvcking mark. All this talk about how following the rules keeps India in good company because phoreners "trusts" us with their latest technology. It's complete shit. They "trust" us because we pay and build only until contract ends so we can never become a competitor.


+ 100

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 16 May 2017 14:06

I don't think that there's any problem about more MKIs,unfortunately,from CAG reports,HAL built MKIs cost about 25% more than fully imported ones from Ru! But MKI support,availability are improving steadily with more OEM-desi entity support and amendment to Russian laws whereby India can now deal directly with component/OEM suppliers for spares,etc.

Problem with MKIs is that they're two-seat birds. The cost of supporting the extra pilot,his family,etc.,etc. eventually is a huge responsibility and cost for the service. The lack of support for getting the LCA into faster production and dev. of imp[roved variants remains the unanswered Q. Why can't a third LCA line be established,if need be with the pvt. sector or even IAF at one of its BRDs. There would then be no need for the SE req. with more MIG-29/35s and MKIs to take up the slack.

Armed Hawks,dumped by the MOD cos of the Hawk engine scandal it appears,but no ban on RR! Crazy.Prof. Das in a recent Vayu apart from pushing for more LCA variants,has also as an academic exercise suggested building new Gnats using better tech available today for the job of GA/close support. The new avatar,with an armoured cockpit,could be ideal for us as it was most difficult to spot in combat,and that the basic design has much potential for the specific job of a GA fighter at v.low cost as well as for point defence.Alternatively,the cheap YAK-130,whose design was also given to the Italians to produce their own trainer version of it (M-346).It was flown by an IAF pilot who raved about it some time ago in a def. journal.OPne rgeat advantage is its ability to simulate characteristics of other front line aircraft .

(The Avionica fly-by-wire flight control system is used to adjust the stability and controllability characteristics and flight safety systems to simulate a number of aircraft such as the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, Typhoon and future fighters such as the F-35.
The pilot selects the software model of the simulated aircraft's control system on the Yak-130 on-board computer. The pilot can select the model during flight. The system can be forgiving to allow cadet pilots the easy acquisition of piloting skills.)
Cost just $15M.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 67637.html
Set back for Make in India initiative after IAF says no to advanced Hawk trainer jets
By Pradip R Sagar | Express News Service | Published: 06th February 2017 08:16 PM |
Last Updated: 06th February 2017

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chola » 16 May 2017 14:25

Italians getting the Yak-130 design and being able to modify and export as their own is a fine point in contrast compared to the shit we are forced to eat in our equivalent contracts with the Ruskies. All those years of building MiG-21s, -27s and MKIs, we were never allowed to build anything that varied one screw from the designs we signed up for much less export anything.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 16 May 2017 18:30

chola wrote:Italians getting the Yak-130 design and being able to modify and export as their own is a fine point in contrast compared to the shit we are forced to eat in our equivalent contracts with the Ruskies. All those years of building MiG-21s, -27s and MKIs, we were never allowed to build anything that varied one screw from the designs we signed up for much less export anything.


But it was with the best of intentions
:lol:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 16 May 2017 18:39

chola wrote:..

Tire of being the nice rule-following patsy on IP. It gets us nothing but repeated contracts of individual screwdrivergiri runs. Being a nice guy means you are a soft fvcking mark. All this talk about how following the rules keeps India in good company because phoreners "trusts" us with their latest technology. It's complete shit. They "trust" us because we pay and build only until contract ends so we can never become a competitor.


We caved on the the AK-74 design when Kalashnikov protested. So we import AK-47 knock offs from Bulgaria, Poland anyone.

The Russkies are so far up our colon that we need permission to have a BM. You'd have to fire the entire MoD babudom to extarct ourselves from the embrace.

Forget reshaping MKIs into ++. HAL can't even contemplate replacing those AL-31s with PW-F100s which the Israelis can help us with.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 20:51

How about less rants and more signal in this thread?

Please don't make every thread a whine fest.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_P » 19 May 2017 12:03

The Avionica fly-by-wire flight control system is used to adjust the stability and controllability characteristics and flight safety systems to simulate a number of aircraft such as the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, Typhoon and future fighters such as the F-35.


I am intrigued by what seems to be a marketing speil

So just by selecting a mode, the YAK-130 flight dynamics and control characteristics can be changed.. to what extent ?

I mean to ask - does this mean the aircraft can do the super controlability maneuvers like the Pugachevs Cobra, for instance, or the hover ability of the F-35 ?

Surely the inherent limits of the Yaks own design will come into play and have limits on the characteristics it can simulate..

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 19 May 2017 12:17

The PIlatus PC-21 is a much cheaper option ,as it can also mimic superior jets. Flight Mag's editor some years ago raved about this inexpensive way to train rookies for more advanced fighters.However,the PC cannot serve as a combat bird for GA/close support. The Yak option was always with us if we wanted to leverage it like the Italians,but I think that the IJT was the flavour of the time,which has flamed out,so to speak.Despite an armed Hawk in a dev. stage,we've decided to punish BAe for the alleged commissions given by it to arms dealers. The Brits are the ebst experts at this judging from their vast ME sales to the Soothis,etc.,where even parliament was prohibited form inquiring too closely into such deals.So where does that leave us with an inexpensive GA fighter?

More armoured Jags as I've often said,desi built at low cost,or an armoured trainer like the excellent Yak. The US is shortly to decide upon its light attack bird,should be an interesting watch. Prof. Das has his out-of-the-box idea of an armoured Gnat,easiest to develop,build and costwise too the cheapest solution.Such a bird should be in the $10M + range,where we could have 5-7 such birds for the price of just one western SE! Numbers do definitely give a quality of its own.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 20 May 2017 02:01

So the PAF has again ordered the Erieye.

While the GOI and IAF hop around the world thinking whom to give valuable Indian tax money to, while the AMCA et al languishes, this happens.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... thin-aewc/

When we have the LCA at home, and keep doing this, its just feeding other folks aerospace industry.

Turkey and Japan are both working with BAe for their 5G programs. We are yet to even formally fund the AMCA to a decent degree.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 20 May 2017 07:15

Ordering high value assets is easy, integrating and protecting them when battle breaks out is hard. It will be interesting to see how they use it, if ever. We have so many assets on our side (ground and air) that can change the FEBA almost on wish. With S400 and LRSAM in fray, they will be forced to fly these assets at least 120-150 kms from the edge during peacetime as well. I wonder what their strategy is for these assets.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 20 May 2017 07:42

Manish_P wrote:
The Avionica fly-by-wire flight control system is used to adjust the stability and controllability characteristics and flight safety systems to simulate a number of aircraft such as the MiG-29, Su-27, Su-30, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mirage 2000, Rafale, Typhoon and future fighters such as the F-35.


I am intrigued by what seems to be a marketing speil

So just by selecting a mode, the YAK-130 flight dynamics and control characteristics can be changed.. to what extent ?

I mean to ask - does this mean the aircraft can do the super controlability maneuvers like the Pugachevs Cobra, for instance, or the hover ability of the F-35 ?

Surely the inherent limits of the Yaks own design will come into play and have limits on the characteristics it can simulate..

I think too much attention is paid to fancy manoeuvres that are not part of most flights. Every plane has some do's and don't in terms of attitude, speed etc which can be mimicked. The instrument panel and the way the plane responds can be mimicked. The fact that a plane can fly at Mach 2 hides the fact that most of the time it will be manoeuvring in the subsonic regime doing stuff than can be mimicked by a suitably sophisticated FBW trainer
Last edited by shiv on 20 May 2017 08:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 20 May 2017 07:45

Karan M wrote:So the PAF has again ordered the Erieye.

While the GOI and IAF hop around the world thinking whom to give valuable Indian tax money to, while the AMCA et al languishes, this happens.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... thin-aewc/

When we have the LCA at home, and keep doing this, its just feeding other folks aerospace industry.

Turkey and Japan are both working with BAe for their 5G programs. We are yet to even formally fund the AMCA to a decent degree.

Karan - you of all people using a Pakistani order to bash Indians? Not nice. Anyone who follows Pakistan will know that deals are oiled by hefty bribes and you probably know better than anyone else on this board what a nightmare it is to seamlessly integrate avionics of one sophisticated platform with the overall avionic environment of national defence.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ashishvikas » 20 May 2017 18:24

SAAB is in talks with the Adani group for the Gripen. Lockheed Martin is in talks with the Tatas for the F-16.

So the battle for the single engine fighter jet "Make in India' project is likely to be thus: SAAB-Adani (Gripen) vs Lockeed-Tata (F-16).

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/865913660765421569

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 20 May 2017 18:42

I read today amca first proto itself would roll out in 10yrs and production 2035....no foreign partner is yet finalized for anything...the final airframe config is a year away from testing

My hunch is its been trickle funded like science project ...with no demanding timeline...no real user involvement and urgency...so scientists are also in slow mode ...user is creating ppts showing why jsf need is urgent...

http://idrw.org/india-pushing-full-stea ... e-project/

While the similar j31 might not be a product yet...atleast it is flying and improving while cheen.develops the mission eqpt and weapons...the j20 is in squadron service or atleast in their tacde

We are conceding huge leads in critical areas that will bite us badly on other fronts

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 20 May 2017 18:47

Reading Shivshankar Menon's book "Choices" right now and he says that it is only in the last 10 years that the Indian army has achieved frorce levels on the border with China sufficient to check Chinese creeping infiltration. In the last confrontation - China poured in hundreds of troops - but were soon matched by an Indian force that made the Chinese withdraw in 3 weeks.

The point is - with the need to get much much stronger in terms of force levels - where does the AMCA fit into the scheme of things? It is at least 70% science project. Probably OT for this thread...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby abhik » 20 May 2017 23:15

We are never going to be able to match the chinese numbers using imported/screwdrivered fighters. Ideally LCA would have been the solution for the present and AMCA for the future. But instead, after botching up the LCA we are now on track to botch up the AMCA too with the 'science project' attitude and the single engine, double engine MII and FGFA.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 20 May 2017 23:39

The LCA is not "botched".

Each nation has its curve. Indian curve is, perhaps, behind all of them. But that is more attributable to bad vision and planning.

Outside of an engine, I feel, India can still field an air craft that will be a pain for the Chinese. And that is all India needs. Just enough to make Xi keep his paws to himself.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 May 2017 01:36

shiv wrote:Reading Shivshankar Menon's book "Choices" right now and he says that it is only in the last 10 years that the Indian army has achieved frorce levels on the border with China sufficient to check Chinese creeping infiltration. In the last confrontation - China poured in hundreds of troops - but were soon matched by an Indian force that made the Chinese withdraw in 3 weeks.

The point is - with the need to get much much stronger in terms of force levels - where does the AMCA fit into the scheme of things? It is at least 70% science project. Probably OT for this thread...


OT indeed but worth a reference. The AMCA like many wildly ambitious schemes of the Indian Defense establishment, is doomed to disappointment for the simple reason that it follows the same pattern as the other schemes. And it will have the same result. OTOH as Ramana has correctly pointed out: more signal less whine (noise). Just finished glancing through the 'new' SP policy which contributed to the downer.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 21 May 2017 08:32

Mil goods are useful to keep client states. Cheen has a full portfolio for that from cheap L15 trainers to yuan subs. And mountains of small arms

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 10:08

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:So the PAF has again ordered the Erieye.

While the GOI and IAF hop around the world thinking whom to give valuable Indian tax money to, while the AMCA et al languishes, this happens.

http://saabgroup.com/Media/news-press/n ... thin-aewc/

When we have the LCA at home, and keep doing this, its just feeding other folks aerospace industry.

Turkey and Japan are both working with BAe for their 5G programs. We are yet to even formally fund the AMCA to a decent degree.

Karan - you of all people using a Pakistani order to bash Indians? Not nice. Anyone who follows Pakistan will know that deals are oiled by hefty bribes and you probably know better than anyone else on this board what a nightmare it is to seamlessly integrate avionics of one sophisticated platform with the overall avionic environment of national defence.


Shivji , you misunderstood what I am saying.

Why are we buying from groups that sell the same equipment to TSP?

Our answer should be to stop importing non stop, because one way or the other somebody or the other is going to sell to TSP, and codevelop our own ASAP.

The go slow on AMCA is inexcusable IMHO because the IAF & MOD marie-biscuit syndrome will ensure more imports are required as interim.

We have to spend where it matters, because even countries like Turkey, with a fraction of our engineering capability are striking it hot, with firms like BAe, which have no option but to look abroad as UK funding is diverted to JSF etc.

That's what I am saying. I agree with your point about integration - we should just buy 2-3 more squadrons of Rafale and then depend on Tejas for the bulk of our requirements.

Otherwise we will just keep buying stuff and operationalizing it is another issue.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 10:13

ashishvikas wrote:SAAB is in talks with the Adani group for the Gripen. Lockheed Martin is in talks with the Tatas for the F-16.

So the battle for the single engine fighter jet "Make in India' project is likely to be thus: SAAB-Adani (Gripen) vs Lockeed-Tata (F-16).

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/865913660765421569


Both suppliers of TSP.

And why do we need these aircraft when we have the LCA?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 10:18

Singha wrote:I read today amca first proto itself would roll out in 10yrs and production 2035....no foreign partner is yet finalized for anything...the final airframe config is a year away from testing

My hunch is its been trickle funded like science project ...with no demanding timeline...no real user involvement and urgency...so scientists are also in slow mode ...user is creating ppts showing why jsf need is urgent...

http://idrw.org/india-pushing-full-stea ... e-project/

While the similar j31 might not be a product yet...atleast it is flying and improving while cheen.develops the mission eqpt and weapons...the j20 is in squadron service or atleast in their tacde

We are conceding huge leads in critical areas that will bite us badly on other fronts


You said it.

My one disappointment with Modi govt has been the MII policy which has not been sufficiently supported for defence. More like trickle feed development of existing programs (bar a few successes like LCA orders) and Acquire from abroad, assemble in India. Modi tends to look at MIC orders as foreign policy quid pro quos, and with the churn in DM, the MII as in Design in India, from Indian suppliers has languished.

There really was NO need for this entire single engine fighter joke of a procurement. More LCAs and a couple of squadrons of Rafales would be much more economical and give India better logistics of scale. Screwdrivering yet another type with limited TOT at Adani or TASL brings zero benefits to India bar making the IAF yet again, dependent on the easy-import fix it has got addicted to over decades.

And tomorrow if there is an Indo-TSP conflict, some green party in Sweden or some think tank in Khan will advice their decision makers on stopping spares to "de-escalate the situation". What then?

Oh wait. We are only planning for 10 days of war, so all iz ok per IAF and MOD.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ashishvikas » 21 May 2017 10:21

Karan M wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:SAAB is in talks with the Adani group for the Gripen. Lockheed Martin is in talks with the Tatas for the F-16.

So the battle for the single engine fighter jet "Make in India' project is likely to be thus: SAAB-Adani (Gripen) vs Lockeed-Tata (F-16).

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/865913660765421569


Both suppliers of TSP.

And why do we need these aircraft when we have the LCA?


IMHO, Winner will probably fund political parties in Next election. So, we need them as LCA can't do funding.

How can you consider Gripen when it hasn't achieved IOC and Final operational clearance will be achieved only in 2023
Last edited by ashishvikas on 21 May 2017 10:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 10:22

It just galls me that the same firm which is all over the DDM airwaves about "transfer of radar tech bla bla bla" to India is busy hawking AWACS to TSP, while the other firm is busy giving us yesterdays aircraft which its own home AF is intending to replace, and of course the same aircraft is with TSP and tomorrow will get upgraded to. What exactly is the point of this single engine farce?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby arvin » 21 May 2017 14:47

^^^ Good points karan. In this era of unmanned F-16 we might be getting our first manned/wommaned F-16 no earlier than probably 2025. This will go down as the most absurd defence deal ever conceptualized. The only motive seems to be to make the strategic partner model (of which I am not a fan) look like a success and give the selected SP some work by way of bringing in foreign aircraft manufacturing which are near end of life. This is nothing but license manufacturing by private players.
I shudder to think what kind of submarines and helicopters will be made next as part of SP.
We dont need F-16 or Gripen. Ask private players to make Tejas and boost numbers. As flying carpet al tecqniki once suggested even Toyota types can be bought in.
The concept of SP should be reversed. Designed in India. Manufactured by the world in India.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 21 May 2017 18:44

I have a sneeking suspension that the so called single engine fighter will be a tejas variant that will be produced by a pvt sector player. In addition to being manufactured by HAL.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ldev » 21 May 2017 19:39

Karan M wrote:[
Oh wait. We are only planning for 10 days of war, so all iz ok per IAF and MOD.


This publicly stated policy of a being prepared only for a 10 day war is the most suicidal thing I've ever heard. What if China which manufactures it's ammunition, missiles and spares in country decides to bear losses in the intial 10 days of a war and then prolong it beyond 10 days and what if the US and Russia decide not to intervene in that war within 10 days and leave India dangling on the wire, then what? The IAF may have surviving aircraft but runs out of missiles, ammunitions and spares, because their war policy is to only stock for 10 days? And after that does the PLAAF have free reign over India?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 May 2017 20:38

Karan M wrote:It just galls me that the same firm which is all over the DDM airwaves about "transfer of radar tech bla bla bla" to India is busy hawking AWACS to TSP, while the other firm is busy giving us yesterdays aircraft which its own home AF is intending to replace, and of course the same aircraft is with TSP and tomorrow will get upgraded to. What exactly is the point of this single engine farce?


To be fair, LM offered the F-35 way back in 2005 when the MMRCA saga started. It was rejected as the requirement was a a plane that was in service. LM then went a step further and said if India would buy ~180 F-16s, it would trade them in for F-35s when they became available. Moreover, it said, there be huge efforts to build in the transition which I assume meant upgraded avionics that would familiarize IAF pilots with those to come in the F-35. That was shot down too by the Indian side as irrelevant since they only wanted to consider the actual fighter in service not some vaporware. Boeing offered the F-15 which was rejected as duplicating the MKI. This is all from the public domain though I no longer remember the links but they were posted on BRF somewhere.

The MMRCA bake-off proved a disaster. We have bought 36 Rafales to assuage the French not to sue us for sidelining the winner. The PAK/FA is being seen for what it is: a science project for the Russians who will deliver it at$135MM plus $6bn in development costs some 10 years after the F-35 has become operational and whose unit cost is now pegged at $85MM and which seems to be deployed in sensiitve areas. The PAK/FA is the plane of the future and always will be.

I think if we can put aside our fear that somehow the LCA would be scuppered by a MII initiative (it won't), then F-35 is about the only alternative we have. But that only makes sense if we adopt the same approach that Turkey or Israel have done. Turkey will assemble F35s with some low value sub assemblies, while Israel has focused on key high value components (Google) while eschewing assembly.

If I were dictator, I would follow the Israeli approach in partnership with them so that plane would be built in the US but have Indo-Isareli components. What we get is MII for the high value stuff and the Israelis get scale.

This will not only get us F-35s at a good price but also set the base for the high value stuff for the AMCA and possibly even the LCA-2.

The Israelis have let it be known that following Modi's visit in July (??), 'the sky is the limit' (Netanyahu said it). Modi is also visiting the US in June. Donald likes to make deals:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/worl ... .html?_r=0

And he needs diversions for the disasters he's spawned in just 100 days. So he wants a deal ("Hey Mare, can you do F-35 for the Injuns for your best price that makes me look good")

This requires nimbleness—not a MoD/GoI strong suit. But one can hope...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 21 May 2017 21:23

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:[
Oh wait. We are only planning for 10 days of war, so all iz ok per IAF and MOD.


This publicly stated policy of a being prepared only for a 10 day war is the most suicidal thing I've ever heard. What if China which manufactures it's ammunition, missiles and spares in country decides to bear losses in the intial 10 days of a war and then prolong it beyond 10 days and what if the US and Russia decide not to intervene in that war within 10 days and leave India dangling on the wire, then what? The IAF may have surviving aircraft but runs out of missiles, ammunitions and spares, because their war policy is to only stock for 10 days? And after that does the PLAAF have free reign over India?

We are suckers when it comes to swallowing what the media tell us. It is perfectly true that the powers that be have asked for preparing for a 10 day war - but it must be seen in the context of the entire machinery from top to bottom having its role perfectly well defined so that there are no lapses and failures. I think it is easy to misunderstand without real life examples

When the Maldives action was ordered by Rajiv Gandhi - the paras had to get ready at short notice - hours in fact.There were 250 paras - and there were 65 parachutes.

In Sri Lanka a beleaguered group of paras - a few dozen were under attack from 400-500 LTTE men. The pars called for artillery fire because there were two artillery pieces available - but guess what? the ammunition had not been flown in from India.ultimately fire support was given with mortatrs by the Sri Lankan army

10 days war is not easy. if everyone - all 2 million or more members of our large and complex armed forces can look at all past failures and success and plan for a "perfect" 10 day war with logistics, ammunition communication and supplies that will be one step forward from chaos that can set in within 2 days of war.

So 10 days is an example - it does not mean that war will last only 10 days - but it does mean "get everything right" It could also mean that we are getting ready to achieve our objectives in 10 days.

This is not about China. I will talk about China elsewhere. It now occurs tome that BRF is 20 years behind time in its views about China. We have concentrated so much on Pakistan that we don't know what the situation is. I kid you not.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 21 May 2017 21:44

ldev wrote:
Karan M wrote:[
Oh wait. We are only planning for 10 days of war, so all iz ok per IAF and MOD.


This publicly stated policy of a being prepared only for a 10 day war is the most suicidal thing I've ever heard. What if China which manufactures it's ammunition, missiles and spares in country decides to bear losses in the intial 10 days of a war and then prolong it beyond 10 days and what if the US and Russia decide not to intervene in that war within 10 days and leave India dangling on the wire, then what? The IAF may have surviving aircraft but runs out of missiles, ammunitions and spares, because their war policy is to only stock for 10 days? And after that does the PLAAF have free reign over India?


Well at least its a stated policy now, with at least x days of intensive war fighting reserves (10 days refers to that) kept. Till date, we didn't even have that and many critical items were in short supply.

I will dig up the reference when i get time, but the 10 days refers to intense fighting & then x days for relatively slower pace etc.

Agree its not optimal.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 21 May 2017 22:12

The war reserves are some where between 1 to 3 months , During Ops Safed Sagar when after 1 month of air operation AF was using some of the pgms very conservatively when asked why they said they wanted to save it should a full scale war breaks out.

War reserves is also very generic term as some of the spares rotables weapons etc can be bought and stored for many months to years while in some cases it may not be feseable to purchase large quantity in advance due to many reasons including cost , we are talking of thousands of spares and equipment

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 22 May 2017 07:11

Indigenous munition is a must for any long duration conflict. India needs to sustain its indigenous efforts with long-term low rate production (i.e 50/year or 200/year etc) and with a capacity to increase to larger quantities in short order. Inventory need to be stockpiled for at least a 3-month medium-intensity war. All platform types need to standardize on these munitions. To top this off, a select few weapons could be imported (one-off or on-going small batches) for specialized tasks.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Neshant » 22 May 2017 07:44

Cosmo_R wrote:I think if we can put aside our fear that somehow the LCA would be scuppered by a MII initiative (it won't), then F-35 is about the only alternative we have.


Tejas will be killed (or sidelined) if foreign single engine fighters start arriving.
The sad reality is all that potential for an indigenous aerospace R&D industry will go down the toilet as the addiction to imports continues.

Also its never a good idea to buy a new foreign aircraft right out of the gate and be a guinea pig.
Nobody yet knows what design flaws, reliability issues, maintenance costs, effectiveness these F-35 planes actually have.
That will only become apparent 5 years down the line once the plane has seen use (and perhaps combat).
So far its been a marketing blitz to sell these planes.


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