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'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2017 00:03

Brazil the first customer has not received their first aircraft. The first aircraft has not yet flown either. Last time they announced a first flight delay Brazilian IOC target was 2024.


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2017 01:52

Weren't there test delays announced late summer/early fall of last year?

Edit -

http://aviationweek.com/defense/saab-pu ... rst-flight

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2017 02:04

Yeah was supposed to fly last year

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nirav » 15 Feb 2017 02:27

I have a feeling that the Americans will eventually swing it their way.
If they do, I'd like to call the Gripen "most leveraged fighter" ever. :mrgreen:
I doubt if any other fighter has been used in competitions like the Gripen to negotiate better deals for another fighter !

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2017 02:34

Cybaru wrote:Yeah was supposed to fly last year


From the article -

The company had originally planned to fly the prototype, 39-8, by the end of the year, but has elected to push the window for the first flight into the second quarter of 2017.

The driver behind the delay is Saab’s strategic decision to qualify the software to a commercial standard known as DO-178C. The company says the decision is not one driven by customers or regulators, but it will provide confidence when customers want to upgrade the aircraft.

The company says the program is still on track to achieve first deliveries in 2019. The second and third Gripen E prototypes, 39-9 and 39-10, are in assembly while the first aircraft for the Brazilian test effort also is being built.


That is 4 - 6 months delay in first flight. Most schedules have some breathing room but the entire flight test portion is ahead of them so they are probably eating up margins fast.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2017 03:54

How long do you think for shee-gripen?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 15 Feb 2017 04:21

Given a delay and a pre delay 2023 IOC estimate I think it's still a middle of next decade cspsbility. There is a lot of work to do here and they are just getting started with the flight test portion.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 05:28

With all due respect to all concerned, really, really, really doubt gripen is coming. It literally has nothing except for operational costs over solah. Saab is just being leveraged to get the f16 at friendship prices. Solah has it in every other department...from induction speed to proven performance. But LM will have to make an offer that can't be refused...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2017 05:41


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 15 Feb 2017 05:43

I don't think prices will be an issue. For the solah.
Ultimately, it is L1 that is expected to win. When you consider the cost of development will be lesser for Block 70 vs. the E, and the time for qualifying both, it is difficult to see either being inducted within five years. Whatever we need for the AMCA, in terms of radar or sensors, this tender is the vehicle for that capability.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 15 Feb 2017 06:31

ES-05 Raven AESA
Skyward-G IRST
IFF & housing
BriteCloud

All developed, produced and delivered by Selex ES i.e. Leonardo i.e. Finmeccanica.

Wherever there is capital procurement of Finmeccanica and their subsidiaries, all requests for proposal (RFP) will be closed. I am very clear." - Manohar Parrikar

---------------------------------------------------

The MoD could still clear the proposal with the justification that Saab was lead contractor but I don't see it wanting to adopt the complication - it'll just use the Gripen to squeeze LM on the cost & industrial offer (thus also avoiding a single vendor roadblock).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2017 07:28

^^^^^

IF I may add .................

July 11, 2016 :: In exclusive deal, India to get ‘most advanced’ F-16 fighter jets by 2019-20

The multi-billion dollar deal was “finalised” during the recent visit of Lockheed Martin’s Chairman, President and CEO Marillyn Hewson here last week, a top official, involved in the talks, told BusinessLine.


However, with the recent push on India-US defence ties, talks on setting up the F-16 plant in India have steadily progressed. The deal was “almost finalised” when Prime Minister Narendra Modi had visited Washington last month.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 08:53

Marten wrote:I don't think prices will be an issue. For the solah.
Ultimately, it is L1 that is expected to win. When you consider the cost of development will be lesser for Block 70 vs. the E, and the time for qualifying both, it is difficult to see either being inducted within five years. Whatever we need for the AMCA, in terms of radar or sensors, this tender is the vehicle for that capability.


What about Rafale deal? Seems like Kaveri is coming along with Snecma. Once Dassault shows and proves that it is serious about offsets and tech cooperation, perhaps more orders will go their way and some more exotic tech will come to desh.

Having said this, what exactly does India need to get a 5Gen design going? Through the LCA much of the core competence has already been developed. Truly speaking, only engine was the issue and this seems to be addressed via Rafale.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2017 09:11

XPosting from LCA thread

NRao wrote:Navy to bear 25% cost of upgraded LCA

He was convinced that the entire aviation industry was set for a boom. “We will require about 1,000 aircraft for civil aviation alone. The requirement for helicopters in defence could be 800-1,000 and fighters around 600-800. We would need 5,000 engines for helicopters alone,” Parrikar said.


It would have been nice if he had provided an approx timeline. But, plenty to go around.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2017 12:40

One understands LEMOA,etc. when the Reliance deal was announced for the USN,for its Pip. shipyard to repair USN warships,a deal worth billions! The USN has no worthwhile ship repair facility in the IOR .This will make India a virtual USN base. Watch this space for the "R" co. if the F-16 deal is sealed too.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ashthor » 15 Feb 2017 14:33

Delhi Defence Review ‏@delhidefence 2h2 hours ago

LCA Navy Mk-2 detailed design will be completed in 18-20 months when plate cutting will begin. Raw material has already been ordered.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 14:42

Also, 1 mtr more length and 25% more fuel.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ashthor » 15 Feb 2017 15:04

Delhi Defence Review ‏@delhidefence 3h3 hours ago

25 percent increase in internal fuel volume for the LCA Navy Mk-2 is also a design goal.


Delhi Defence Review ‏@delhidefence 3h3 hours ago

Cmd Balaji says 1 metre length extension for Mk-2 likely. MTOW target is in the 16-16.5 ton range.


Delhi Defence Review ‏@delhidefence 3h3 hours ago

Also mentions that engine ha been identified. AMCA engine consultations are being done with IAF.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby negi » 15 Feb 2017 15:14

Karan M wrote:Also, 1 mtr more length and 25% more fuel.

Engine kaunsa hai ?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Karan M » 15 Feb 2017 15:24

ge414 ins6 is my take

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 15 Feb 2017 15:35

*poof*
Last edited by JayS on 15 Feb 2017 16:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby sankum » 15 Feb 2017 15:45

Same as Gripen E class. Then what is the need for Gripen.

16T MTOW for STOBAR and 16.5T MTOW for CATOBAR is my estimate.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 15 Feb 2017 15:56

From what I understand, it takes only 7 months for manufacture + assembly (assuming LRUs are already ordered 24-30 months prior since a majority of these will not change at all or will require minor changes that should not affect suppliers). (added later: not sure if this include "metal cutting").

Does raw material refer only the CF fabric, prepeg, and "metal" for the structure? Meaning all other items will be ordered as and when signed off and will await assembly...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ashthor » 15 Feb 2017 16:28

Cross-posting

sankum wrote:REVEALED: The Indian LCA Navy’s Big Fight Back

Two GE F414 engines — one for the AF prototype and one for the LCA Navy — arrived earlier this month, the first batch of eight engines contracted from GE for the Mk.2 programme.

For starters, the team plans to move the wings outboard by about 350mm, increasing the space significantly between the fuselage and the wings. This would immediately optimise load transfer (the ADA has had weight issues with the landing gear) and free up the central fuselage for fuel. ‘We believe the change will free up space for up to 700 kg additional fuel, providing about 22 minutes of additional time on task,’ Balaji tells Livefist. That’s huge for the tactical envelope the LCA platform was developed for.


Balaji’s team will freeing up LCA Tejas LSP-2 shortly for ground integration of India’s indigenous Uttam AESA radar. The ADA has asked the DRDO’s LRDE lab to keep the Uttam’s interfaces as similar as possible to the current

A full scale model of the LCA Navy Mk.2 will be ready by early next year.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 15 Feb 2017 18:18

ashthor wrote:
Delhi Defence Review ‏@delhidefence 3h3 hours ago

Also mentions that engine ha been identified. AMCA engine consultations are being done with IAF.


Any more details on this?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2017 22:58

That 700 kgs extra fuel is music to my ears. It means an extra 800-900 liters of fuel.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2017 23:05

After reading Shiv Aroor's article, I think I am gonna cry. Like I said before...we are on the cusp of something great in the Tejas. Oh how I wish the policy makers saw it too and stop this single engine fighter charade.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2017 23:10

Karan M wrote:ge414 ins6 is my take

If it's going to be mirage 2000, f16 class 7-8 ton fighter, no point being pawam and repeating the mistake of saab and dassault with puny 10 ton engines. Praying for min 12.5 ton beast of engine. Perhaps this can be tied to solah deal.

That way the question of being underpowered uggs simply not in the picture.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 15 Feb 2017 23:44

Cain Marko wrote:
Karan M wrote:ge414 ins6 is my take

If it's going to be mirage 2000, f16 class 7-8 ton fighter, no point being pawam and repeating the mistake of saab and dassault with puny 10 ton engines. Praying for min 12.5 ton beast of engine. Perhaps this can be tied to solah deal.

That way the question of being underpowered uggs simply not in the picture.


I think the optimum solution for this is to start a sarfran-kaveri 12 ton engine, just like the 9 ton venture. Fund it, give it a go and let it get there in the next 5-9 years. Till then use IN6 for first prototype etc. If it pans out, use that, or go with the IN6 engine.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Feb 2017 00:44

Frankly, while they can work on a higher thrust kaveri simultaneously, i would so want them to drop the bloody 414.

The idea that they can extend the fuselage by 1 meter, increase payload by 2-3 tons, move the wings outboard and still reduce the weight or keep it the same seems quite frankly, over ambitious. You are looking at a 7.5-8 ton fighter....all design bureaus across the world have landed up at this weight range for these specs, LM, Dassault and now, Saab. Experience with the m2k tells us that a 10 ton engine for this size is not the best idea. The gripens current weight issues further corroborate this. Iirc, they were talking of some 7 ton empty weight initially, and now they are up to 8. And ada/hal are talking of actually reducing weight our keeping it the same. Nuts.

Not a good idea, Especially not if you want to try stobar carrier ops. Might as well go a little bigger right now with the engine than have to redesign 10 years from now.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 16 Feb 2017 02:05

I wonder if the sarfran help is towards the original specs of 52kN engine or the revised 58-60kN engine? Perhaps it will be towards the earlier and then scaled to latter.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby negi » 16 Feb 2017 08:37

What is the f16 deal for ? Katrina is not coming ?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 16 Feb 2017 09:37

sankum wrote:Same as Gripen E class. Then what is the need for Gripen.

16T MTOW for STOBAR and 16.5T MTOW for CATOBAR is my estimate.

No need for Paper NG whatsoever, however until Kaveri is proven (I am hoping Snecma-Safran comes thru...the recent announcement that Tejas will fly @ AI 2019 with the Kaveri engine gives me hope) having a common engine makes a whole lot of sense. On that account alone, it could tilt the choice in Paper NG's favour. But then there is the geopolitical angle and nobody comes close to Unkil in that respect.

What is the f16 deal for ? Katrina is not coming ?

More Katrinas will likely come. I find it hard to believe the IAF will stop at just two squadrons. You don't invest all that money in setting up two bases (like they are doing now at Hasmira in West Bengal and Sarsawa in Uttar Pradesh) and then just have one squadron each. Defies logic. Also remember, do not think a repeat order of 36 is going to cost the same as the first order of 36. The first order includes a host of other items that is not needed in follow on orders. You have to account for inflation, but both deals (if a second one materializes) have to be scrutinized with a fine tooth comb. That is not going to happen as per recent IAF reports.

Air Force declines to share details on Rafale deal
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 980097.cms

The article below is highly unlikely, but worth a read into Dassault's pitch...
Dassault sets sights on supplying 200 Rafale jets to India over next decade
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... pLCZK.html

I have a feeling we will repeat the 80s again. India purchased 51 Mirage 2000s and then went in for MiG-29s, when there was an option for licensed production of 110 more Mirage 2000s. We just purchased 36 Rafales and will purchase 100 or 200 single engine fighters.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 16 Feb 2017 09:51

Strategic Partners policy absent from Aero India's opening day
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/aer ... -roadblock

While announcing the Defence Procurement Procedure, or DPP, in March 2016, the Ministry of Defence said a chapter on SP policy will be added to the DPP. However, the SP policy is still in the discussion stage despite it first being mooted by the Dhirendra Singh Committee back in July 2015.

For once I am proud of our babus. Our PM set the policy - Make In India, but the bureaucrats run the show. The Govt is now realizing (and feeling) the push back they are getting from the bureaucracy on the MII. Was bound to happen. Vision is nice, but execution is proving hard.

Eleven months and we are not even close to completing a chapter of SP policy. WOW! :roll: :lol:

Learn efficiency (or the lack thereof) from our very own beloved Babus. Sau Saal Jiyo!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Feb 2017 10:28

What we need is some phyrring of babus and replacements taken straight from BR - not kidding. I'm absolutely certain there are folks here who are far more knowledgeable in these matters :evil: . I read somewhere that it takes about 10000 hours of effort to become world class experts in a given field or for a given skill; I'm willing to bet that there are some on BR who have easily averaged close to that number over the last 15 years. Hell, I'm sure I'm close to 1 hour per day for few years, SHQ's monitoring notwithstanding :mrgreen: !

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby svinayak » 16 Feb 2017 12:36

NRao wrote:XPosting from LCA thread


He was convinced that the entire aviation industry was set for a boom. “We will require about 1,000 aircraft for civil aviation alone. The requirement for helicopters in defence could be 800-1,000 and fighters around 600-800. We would need 5,000 engines for helicopters alone,” Parrikar said.
It would have been nice if he had provided an approx timeline. But, plenty to go around.


This is clear that India has to make the engines in India

There has to be atleast 4 types by 2030. The challenge is to get that tech and the mfg capability in India by that time.

My earlier estimation was 2000 units but the Indian economy will need atleast 5000 or more in another 25 years

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 16 Feb 2017 14:54


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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nirav » 16 Feb 2017 18:17

If we go by that press report that said that the f16 deal was almost finalised during PMs US visit last year, I have a strong sense that they will seal the deal with the next NM-Trump meet.

I hope this process is expedited ASAP and a contract for a minimum 100 Solah is signed.

I also hope that HAL/ADA combine either find a second vendor for the radome or indigenise it quickly.
For now Cobham has too much leverage.
White pakis have leverage to delay FOC production if they play truant with radome deliveries.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 16 Feb 2017 20:11

More Rafales will be ordered. For the first 36 order, India secured help for Kaveri from Snecma-Safran, and according to reports Kaveri will be flying on an LCA in 2-3 years. If the French deliver on its promises, then another 36 would likely be ordered. It makes sense from a huge infrastructure investment the IAF is making as well.

Other development is that LCA Mk.2 looks more and more to be a Mirage-2000 class fighter. "Medium" category would be fulfilled by it post 2025. In the meantime, more cheap LCA Mk.1A would need to be ordered to make up for retiring MiGs. HAL has mentioned that they will be able to produce 25 LCA/year once outsourcing of all the major components (wings, tail, fuselage, etc) is complete.

Production of Su-30MKI is coming to an end in the next 2.5 years. More should be ordered to take advantage of a local production line that can build a MKI from raw-materials.

Then, there is always an option to buy second-hand Mirage-2000s and upgrade them to the Indian standard. Qatar, UAE, Greece, Brazil and France will have quite a few retiring airframes over the next 5-7 years. One or two squadrons plus top-up of existing squadrons would be recommended. Armaments and some components would be common with the Rafale.

IMO, the above approach would give better "bang-for-buck". The overall cost of inducting yet-another-foreign fighter is huge and needless to say time consuming process. Doubt that a new foreign plane would be inducted within the next 10-years given the Indian bureaucracy. If foreign-fighter is desired, then a better bet at this point would on F-35--latest generation and not some legacy planes.


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