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'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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UlanBatori
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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 07:55

I heard a 400% reliable rumor: That HAL etc flat-out declined to accept an offer from a major Oiropean manufacturer (named above), to ship the entire line of production to India. Because India simply could not handle the technology, or train enough ppl to take the tech.

I assume that this is because the production is so highly automated, maybe like single-piece composite casting and intricate robotic welding? Also miniaturized electronics? It begins to make sense. Wonder how the F16 line transfer will work. Of course the problem will only get worse as manufacturing advances are delayed in India.

They REALLY need to bring in the automobile production experts into HAL/ADA etc.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2017 08:20

indeed. china is leveraging the massive scale, diversity and sophistication of its commercial manufacturing ecosystems. from iphones to airbus quality parts to every consumer electronics to machine tools and production lines, they make them all.
they already have hybrid and ev domestic cos manufacturing at scale
http://www.byd.com/la/auto/e6.html
we only have the scrawny golf cartish mahindra e2o and maini reva. :oops:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2017 08:25

might be good to bring in a outside agency to compare the productivity and manufacturing tech at HAL vs say EF or lockheed. at present only HAL and GOI insiders know and they are not telling...

it might actually be lockheed makes 3x the planes with 3x less labour due to automation. thats a huge red flag to the unions here.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 08:32

at present only HAL and GOI insiders know and they are not telling...

I wonder if this is the key point that must go into that one-pager. But what is the solution to propose?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Prasad » 13 Jul 2017 08:38

Loosen purse strings. Get tech help, give tech help to private cos to outsource whatever sub-assembly pertains to that tech and remain integrator. No other way to do it in the short term. Creating new tech takes more time as you'd know yourself.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2017 08:42

UlanBatori wrote:I heard a 400% reliable rumor: That HAL etc flat-out declined to accept an offer from a major Oiropean manufacturer (named above), to ship the entire line of production to India. Because India simply could not handle the technology, or train enough ppl to take the tech.

I'm guessing that HAL's bureaucracy and unions would not be able to handle it

1. Defence ministry pregrinations - 4 years
2. Political debate about setting up "greenfield" project in underdeveloped Thar desert or Dandakaranya forest - 3 years
3. Land acquisition-2 years
4. Land disputes - 2 years
5. NGT permission - 3 years
6. Elections, drought, floods - etc - 1 year
7. Air force refuses 45 year old plane in 15 year old project - 2 years
8. Plane forced down Air Force's throat , project to begin "soon"
9. OEM has closed down OEM aircraft plant
10. Select new aircraft. Rinse. Repeat


A private player probably would do better

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 13 Jul 2017 08:47

Here are the people I would like to see heading the future of India's defence aviation
Lalloo Prasad Yadav
Mamata Banerjee
Digvijay Singh
Rahul Gandhi

These people bring together great awareness of India's strategic needs and are in touch with cutting edge technology and I look forward to the, guiding us in future

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 09:04

shivji: Can go offline if needed, but I wanted to see the stones from the experts here. Request for 1-pager is fairly serious, from VERY serious ppl. :eek: Damocles Sword etc. Every word has to be very well thought-out and knowledgeable which of course goes against my policies. I assume I have to tell them something that The Reader does not know and The Baboons cannot go "nah-nah-nah-nah!"
Let's say that it may go to a big fan of "Make in India". And of the Lockheed deal, for reasons that have nothing to do with F-16s.

For instance, "Concerted govt-university-nationallab-industry effort" would get the 1-page dismissed on the spot as fluff. They do a lot of that already, there is a Gas Turbine Combustion Center set up at IITM for instance. Led by good ppl.
"bring in auto industry" sounds good to me, but is it insane? Is there some fundamental reason why airplane building is very different from car-body building? I don't know any Lexus that can go Mach 1.4, maybe the materials are fundamentally more difficult to keep under control?
What does it take to bring up robotic manufacture very fast to, say, the level in France? Is this the issue in fact?

One thing I do want to say is that the only way to match and pass China-type numbers is by going to UCAVs. And mass production and test-to-destruction in large numbers.

Plus a Hyman Rickover/ KPS Gill type focus on end results, creating entire cultures and procedures as needed, cost be damned.

But that still requires engines, robotic manufacture, miniaturized electronics and radiation-hardened enclosures. Plus awesome software and computers, plus guidance/navigation/control/weapon choice/ aerial combat algorithms, which are all brain issues.
But I do want to add one requirement:
Fire In the Bello. what is the chaste and culturally appropriate Hindi for that pls? "pet mein aag" sounds inelegant transliteration.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby abhik » 13 Jul 2017 09:12

UBji are you referring to the Dornier Do 228? Wasn't that a end of life product much like the f16?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby negi » 13 Jul 2017 09:14

In words of the honorable PM the equivalent phrase is "khud ka jeevan khapa dene ki aur kuch kar gujarne ki ichcha honi chahiye" (desire to do something and give one's entire life to the cause).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2017 13:19

One thing I do want to say is that the only way to match and pass China-type numbers is by going to UCAVs. And mass production and test-to-destruction in large numbers.


So we are going to match Cheen with UCAVs when Cheen is the largest drone maker on earth and has not only armed its own military with the stuff but has sold hundreds of its Predator rip-offs to unethical wahabbi regimes that are already killing people in the Middle East? While we are still monkeying around with an unarmed Rustom for ages and ages?

This is a major deficit area. The ability to produce numbers here are far more in favor of Cheen than even conventional aircraft.

We need something we are good at that can tip the balance. I am thinking ISRO and maybe rocketships.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 13 Jul 2017 13:29

Votever 'appened to the LCA td.? Shot down,harbinger of things to come? Nein,says zis report on BVR integration!

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... ile-263162
Xcpt:
The missile, fitted with a fire-and-forget guidance system, has an estimated range of over 50 kilometers and an estimated speed of Mach 4. According to Rafael, the LCA could be equipped with an extended-range variant of the I-Derby with a range of up to 100 kilometers. The weapon can be fired from missile rail launchers fitted underneath the aircraft’s wings.

The Tejas LCA is a supersonic, single-seat, single-engine multirole light fighter aircraft, which has been under development since 1983 by the Aeronautical Development Agency in cooperation with Indian state-owned military aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). As I noted elsewhere:

The Indian Air Force intends to induct a total of 123 Tejas Mark-IA aircraft. In November 2016, the Indian MoD cleared the purchase of a first batch of 83 Mark-IA LCAs. The IAF is also currently slated to receive 40 Tejas Mark-I aircraft by early 2018.

However, HAL has so far not yet been able to meet the target of eight aircraft per year. In July 2016, the IAF inducted the first two serially-produced LCAs, followed by three more aircraft during the year. A sixth LCA is expected to join the IAFs Number 45 Squadron. HAL is expected to produce 16 LCAs during the full-production phase.

In addition, I explained (See: “India’s Newest Fighter Jet Completes Maiden Flight”):

The Mark-I variant (…) suffered from a number of technical shortfalls, according to a May 2015 report by the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India — the Indian government’s principal oversight body — including inadequate electronic warfare capabilities, problems with the on board radar system, and reduced internal-fuel capacity.

The technical shortcomings will be corrected in the Mark I-A variant. Gun trials for the LCA are slated to commence in August 2017.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 16:53

We need something we are good at that can tip the balance. I am thinking ISRO and maybe rocketships.

OT, but there is no hope of deterring Cheen with a few glamorized and budget-breaking pieces of anything. Yes, India may be way behind in UAV production, but there is no joy in just ignoring that. UCAV vs. F16 is the old story of horse vs. elephant. If the horse gets near enough the elephant can core/stomp one or two, but what happens when 10 attack at the same time?
My point is that the common problem in both UCAV and fighter mass production is engines & composite manufacture. All those other things like servos/fly by light fly by wireless, whatever components can be imported piecemeal for the short term and eventually improved from desi sources. Plus the way to develop good engines is to manufacture several and launch them on UCAV shells. So what if they crash?

Why is HAL unable to meet 8/yr target on LCA? Lack of engines, inability to get the fuselage quality right (composites) or lack of electronics parts? Robotic arms not working? (I hope they are not building these entire by Rosikkutty The Riveter driving one rivet at a time?) Or something else? Why is it harder to build than Su-30MKIs? Is the separation between ADA/DRDO/NAL/HAL obstructing quick improvement? Where are the HAL production Gurus in this business? I think they were able to do better with Gnats way back, hain?
Seems like this is a relevant test case for a Make In India fighter: sheer inability to build. They are still talking about Serial Production - isn't that build one, open the Rooh Afza, then start on the next one? No Production/Assembly Line?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 16:57

One more insight: Apparently, post-Kargil, Defense Procurement committees etc are stacked majority with uniformed types. IOW, "So how are they getting away with blaming the baboon?" Serious implication that many cited "problems" are not honest problems but deliberate foot-dragging and writing/keep changing Requirements to sabotage systems. No idea what is the truth. If someone sets out a Requirement for a system to be delivered in 2010, and in 2015 the Requirements are changed, and the first system is still 5 years from completion, who is to be blamed?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby darshhan » 13 Jul 2017 19:51

Singha wrote:might be good to bring in a outside agency to compare the productivity and manufacturing tech at HAL vs say EF or lockheed. at present only HAL and GOI insiders know and they are not telling...

it might actually be lockheed makes 3x the planes with 3x less labour due to automation. thats a huge red flag to the unions here.


Singha ji, I was reading somewhere that lockheed's final production plan for F-35 envisages completion of one F-35 daily i.e 365 F-35's annually. Now that is what you call manufacturing prowess. The aircraft itself might not be upto the mark as far as reliability and quality are concerned. But scale of production will more than make up for all the F-35 flaws.

On the other hand HAL is huffing and puffing to manufacture just 8 aircraft a year. Something is definitely rotten and it is not the lack of funds. HAL is very much a cash rich company.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 13 Jul 2017 19:55

Lockheed most certainly does not plan on having 365 work days on its line. One a day delivery is the maximum capacity that the FW line is designed to handle but they won't crew up for around the clock 7/365 days shifts. At its peak they will likely get very close to 200 deliveries (signed early contracts for Lot 12-14 takes them to min. of 156 per 12 month period in LRIP-13) but theoretically they could go higher using capacity they have in their production plan.
Last edited by brar_w on 13 Jul 2017 19:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2017 19:57

i think part of HALs clout is being a navaratna and generating a surplus profit from its guaranteed order book which is duly returned to the finance ministry.

with 80 Mk1A orders I dont see why they cannot order the tools and train the people necessary to turn out 16 a year.
its not as if the jigs and tools will need to be thrown away, most of it can be reused for whatever is next or sold to PAC kamra.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2017 20:01

like modular shipbuilding where 90% complete sections of ships incl internal fittings are welded together and pipes and wires connected, i wonder if the goras have done that to aircraft...ie assemble nearly complete sections and then rivet them and connect wires. our crates seem to stand on assembly line for a year with people crawling in and out connecting miles and miles of wires, while these gora chi chi kittens seem to roll off like camry cars

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 13 Jul 2017 20:01

Singha wrote:i think part of HALs clout is being a navaratna and generating a surplus profit from its guaranteed order book which is duly returned to the finance ministry.

with 80 Mk1A orders I dont see why they cannot order the tools and train the people necessary to turn out 16 a year.
its not as if the jigs and tools will need to be thrown away, most of it can be reused for whatever is next or sold to PAC kamra.

HAL could have funded their LUH and HTT-40 earlier with those "surplus profit".

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Singha » 13 Jul 2017 20:02

we need someone in aerospace production engg field to explain what exactly we lack vs the rest...people, tools, techology, food, morale, money .... its a mystery to me.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby darshhan » 13 Jul 2017 20:05

negi wrote:In words of the honorable PM the equivalent phrase is "khud ka jeevan khapa dene ki aur kuch kar gujarne ki ichcha honi chahiye" (desire to do something and give one's entire life to the cause).


Jeevan to HAL employee bhi khapa raha hai par paperwork aur regulation mein.(Translation: HAl Employees are also sacrificing their entire lives but in paperwork and regulation). The same is true for all DPSUs and other PSUs too. They are always busy. Busy in drafting office note/backdated letters etc. Never in actual productive work.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 13 Jul 2017 20:15

Singha wrote:like modular shipbuilding where 90% complete sections of ships incl internal fittings are welded together and pipes and wires connected, i wonder if the goras have done that to aircraft...ie assemble nearly complete sections and then rivet them and connect wires. our crates seem to stand on assembly line for a year with people crawling in and out connecting miles and miles of wires, while these gora chi chi kittens seem to roll off like camry cars

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ldev » 13 Jul 2017 20:51

Forget about aircraft. I cannot think of a single product, conceived, designed and mass produced in India which is not as a result of foreign colloboration. I will be happy to be corrected. Even the Hindustan Ambassador is the Old Morris Oxford. There seems to be an inability to apply the production techniques and lessons learned from a foreign collaboration to a completely domestic product. i.e. there does not seem to be a repository of knowledge among a critical enough mass of people even if such people have been exposed to such knowledge and information.

As far as "fire in the belly" is concerned, there was only one opportunity India had to generate that "fire in the belly" on a large enough scale and that was within I would say 20-30 years of independence. That initial "fire in the belly" that people had in the 1947-1967 period, to do that they could for their newly independent country, never saw any results because of the flawed economic policies of Nehru. Human psychology dictates that if you do not see tangible improvements to your and your children's lives in one generation, people stop believing in the system. And they then tend to do what is necessary to improve their economic well being by resorting to corruption if in India and emigration if there were no options in India. Countries such as South Korea delivered on that promise of tangible improvements to their people's lives in one generation and so people there believe in the system and will therefore do whatever is needed.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chola » 13 Jul 2017 20:59

ldev wrote:Forget about aircraft. I cannot think of a single product, conceived, designed and mass produced in India which is not as a result of foreign colloboration. I will be happy to be corrected. Even the Hindustan Ambassador is the Old Morris Oxford. There seems to be an inability to learn the production techniques and lessons learned from a foreign collaboration and apply them to a completely domestic product

As far as "fire in the belly" is concerned, there was only one opportunity India had to generate that "fire in the belly" on a large enough scale and that was within I would say 20-30 years of independence. That initial "fire in the belly" that people had in the 1947-1967 period, to do that they could for their newly independent country, never saw any results because of the flawed economic policies of Nehru. Human psychology dictates that if you do not see tangible improvements to your and your children's lives in one generation, people stop believing in the system. And they then tend to do what is necessary to improve their economic well being by resorting to corruption if in India and emigration if there were no options in India. Countries such as South Korea delivered on that promise of tangible improvements to their people's lives in one generation and so people there believe in the system and will therefore do whatever is needed.


Moovies.

Dangal and Bahubali 1|2 are breaking records. Completely produced in Bharat.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ldev » 13 Jul 2017 21:04

chola wrote:Moovies.

Dangal and Bahubali 1|2 are breaking records. Completely produced in Bharat.


:lol:
We should beam these movies on giant screens at the Chinese border and defeat China with the power of these movies!!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 21:50

Are the screens made in India or assembled from 399% imports? So I gather that failure to retain lessons from tech transfer is a major point. Thanks. How about auto industry, now that India is maybe the largest exporter of cars etc? Those lines are highly automated, robotic, and they achieve amazing tolerances of fit with composites. Re: composites/wiring, circa 2004 my evil 6th coujin got close-up tours of C-17 components and B717 lines. The big breakthrough (this was immediately pre-787) was that instead of composite panels, entire large sections were being cast as one piece WITH THE WIRING ALREADY PUT IN!!!! So instead of crawling inside tiny spaces to string miles and miles of wiring (they had special tiny ppl experts in that!!) they now use connectors between these big pieces. Huge breakthrough, though it is a nightmare to set up in CAD beforehand.

If the line is fast and repetitive, can India fine-tune quality to auto industry standards. And with composite airframes, this quality makes a huge improvement in drag, and therefore in range, endurance etc.
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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 13 Jul 2017 21:51

Singha wrote:like modular shipbuilding where 90% complete sections of ships incl internal fittings are welded together and pipes and wires connected, i wonder if the goras have done that to aircraft...ie assemble nearly complete sections and then rivet them and connect wires.


Yes this is done on the Military side as well. On the JSF, Northrop Grumman ( which has offloaded some of this work to foreign companies for partner nations and/or FMS customers according to their program participation status) delivers completed and pre-wired center fuselage sections from its Palmdale production site to Lockheed Fort Worth for final assembly. The aft fuesalage is made by BAE in UK and shipped wired as well while Lockheed makes the forward section and the wings at the Fort Worth plant (with work having been offloaded to international partners and FMS customers )

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jul 2017 22:18

chola wrote:Moovies.

Dangal and Bahubali 1|2 are breaking records. Completely produced in Bharat.

In 70 years, if all we have learnt is to make movies than we are doomed. Anything of worthwhile value in india has largely been screwdrivergiri. And with the MII SE program, we will do the same. As per the AWST article that Kartik posted, we are onlee doing screwdrivergiri (FACO line) on the F-Solah. The Gripen E aka vaporware will be no different.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jul 2017 22:33

^^^ Reposting Kartik's post (from a previous page in this thread)....

---------------------------------------------------------

AW&ST article. Posting the relevant snippets.

The whole aim of the Make In India Single Engined fighter program is to kick-start a private sector aerospace firm that gets involved in much more than just final assembly or manufacturing know-how. So, if the F-16 proposal is to only shift final assembly to India and continue with the bulk of the manufacture in the US, then it beats the fundamental purpose of this program itself.

Makes the whole F-16 proposal look unappealing. My feeling is that Saab will be more amenable to transferring significantly more than just a FACO to India, since they know that an Indian order could completely transform the Gripen E's future. But, going with the Adani Group for a partnership just doesn't make sense to me, unless they're banking on the possible influence that the Adani Group has on the BJP govt, just as Dassault partnered with Reliance for their ability to grease the wheel of Indian bureaucracy and politics.

...

Lockheed hopes the deal with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd., the defense arm of India’s Tata Group, will help tip the scales in the F-16’s favor. If India chooses Lockheed’s Fighting Falcon over Saab’s Gripen for the new fleet, Tata will be Lockheed’s primary partner for final assembly of the aircraft in India, says John Rood, senior vice president of Lockheed Martin International.

The agreement is a clear nod to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s “Make in India” campaign to boost local manufacturing. If New Delhi elects to buy at least 100 F-16s, Lockheed is looking to permanently shift final assembly of all new Fighting Falcons to India.

In that case, Lockheed and Tata will set up and operate an in-country facility where the new fighters will be assembled, Rood says. Lockheed will still build most components in the U.S., but the two companies are in talks to potentially build certain parts in India.


If the deal materializes, Lockheed and Tata would jointly build a new Indian fleet of F-16Vs, also known as “Block 70s.” The V configuration sees the addition of Northrop Grumman’s APG-83 scalable, agile-beam active, electronically scanned array radar; a center pedestal display; a new advanced mission computer; a joint helmet-mounted cueing system; and the auto-ground collision-avoidance system. Lockheed is already under contract with Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan to upgrade a total of more than 300 F-16s to the V configuration.

..

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Mihir » 13 Jul 2017 22:42

Rakesh wrote:Point 11 - All the above requires serious infusion of cash. Increase the % of GDP in relation in defence and R&D in defence.


At what cost, though? Defence spending is already more than 17% of total government expenditure. Are we willing to make drastic cuts to personnel numbers so that more of that money could be allocated to capital expenditures? Or make cuts in other areas? Our spending on healthcare and human resource development is already piss-poor. To give you some rough numbers, China officially spends something like 5.5% of it's total budget on defence. It spends approximately 17% on education and 9% on healthcare. Our numbers in those areas are something like 3.5% and 2% respectively. Spending on roads and railways is less than 6%. Agriculture, food distribution, etc. take up 10%, but best of luck making cuts there without starving people to death.

This is why people have been crying themselves hoarse over economic reform. If we spend even more money on defence than we do at present, we'll probably bankrupt ourselves before Mudikaka's reforms have the chance to boost revenue.

Apologies for taking the discussion slightly off track, etc. etc.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Jul 2017 22:46

permanently shift final assembly of all new Fighting Falcons to India.

This is the dangled bait. Export market. Jobs in US because with lower cost they can beat the Oiropeans and Rooskies for phoren contracts. Jobs in India assembling these components. Inspired by car companies.

(Also, per my chaiwallah, there are other totally aircraft-unrelated things tied into this. I believe this F-16 line was a General Dynamics line. Pls check what else General Dynamics makes/used to make).
But how big is the Export Market once Khan starts exporting UCAVs?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Marten » 13 Jul 2017 22:51

^Now that would be a game changer, if the IAF were up to the drastic change in doctrine! The thought itself is exciting because it might actually help kickstart the program that we really need (not talking about Aam-khaa).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 13 Jul 2017 22:54

Lockheed only purchased General Dynamics's Military Aircraft division (mostly concerned with fighter aircraft at the time). Rest of GD's programs are still owned by the GD corporation (which is still the 5th largest defense contractor in the US by revenue) although some other business units were also sold around the same time but none to Lockheed. As far as the export market unless cost falls significantly you are looking at at the most (best case) 50-100 aircraft.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 13 Jul 2017 23:00

Mihir: No apologies needed. You are very much on topic. All the points that UlanBatori raised requires money....serious money. I am quoting just some of the points he raised.

4. To seriously deter China, India needs thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of aerial fighters.
5. Such numbers cannot be bought, they must come from indigenous production.
6. Engines, and miniaturized electronics, are areas where India does not have 21st century manufacturing capabilities. Without these, Item 1 cannot be satisfied. Hence it is the greater priority.
7. Engines cannot be developed to 21st century standards without a massive program of test-to-failure and pushing the boundaries. This requires a close partnership under a very focused program, between govt, academic research, national labs, DRDO, the Armed Forces - and - the automobile mass manufacturing sector.

I do not believe the IAF needs thousands or tens of thousands, but to achieve a 60+ squadron strength to fight the 2.5 wars that Ramanaji has stated...you will need to cough up some serious money. Where is this going to come from if there is no money available or the govt spends on projects without any long term planning?

As per UB, we do not have 21st century manufacturing capabilities. I fully endorse that view and to get such a capability, again one needs serious investment. What have we done in that regard?

With regards to point seven that UB raised, what is the level of partnership/collaboration between those institutions? I am assuming it is not up to par, otherwise UB would not have brought it up.

I agree with what you are saying. I am not discounting it. However there needs to be a serious rethink of what are the priority platforms and what is really not. As Akshay Kapoor Saar and others have been saying in the Indian Naval thread, we should be inducting more submarines, helicopters (basically essentials) than expensive capital ships such as aircraft carriers. Our sub fleet is dismal. Our ASW helo fleet is much left to be desired. Files take forever to move at the MoD.

Tejas production, depending from one person to the next, is either not up to par or is just fine. But the reality is that we need more fighters - relevant to this thread. A lot more fighters. Import whatever is needed, but there has to be a return on that investment. Neither platform offers anything in that regard. One is a FACO line and the other is vaporware (empty promises). What will we learn after spending $10 - $12 billion?

We cannot envision ourselves to be a world power, blue water navy, force projection or whatever we need to do, without the capability to back it up. And for that you need money.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Viv S » 14 Jul 2017 00:08

brar_w wrote:As far as the export market unless cost falls significantly you are looking at at the most (best case) 50-100 aircraft.

Oh come on! 50-100!

India has a better shot of exporting the Tejas than it does of exporting the F-16. At least, the former has a USP in terms of cost going for it, even if the production capacity is, for the moment, absent. An export F-16 is unlikely to come off an Indian assembly line before 2030. Meanwhile the market for an F-16, is disappearing even as we speaking, and will in all likelihood be non-existent post-2020 (losing it to the Gripen, Su-30/35 & FA-50).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby brar_w » 14 Jul 2017 00:21

As my post mentions this would be under the best case, where Tata and Lockheed jointly market the aircraft along with after sales support and there is a significant reduction in unit cost. This would be the absolute ceiling in terms of export potential imho. But yeah, overall export prospects do not look very good even in the best case scenario.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 14 Jul 2017 01:21

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:Moovies.

Dangal and Bahubali 1|2 are breaking records. Completely produced in Bharat.

In 70 years, if all we have learnt is to make movies than we are doomed. Anything of worthwhile value in india has largely been screwdrivergiri. And with the MII SE program, we will do the same. As per the AWST article that Kartik posted, we are onlee doing screwdrivergiri (FACO line) on the F-Solah. The Gripen E aka vaporware will be no different.


Amen and Agree with the Admiral.
Admiral with your permission I would like to add my pet peeve to your movie list.

Cricket !!
The Brits came up with it when their 180 Million slaves worked beautifully under the guidance of 150,000 administrators.
They needed a time black hole of a game.
ENTER THE GAME OF CRICKET AND CUCUMBER SANDWICHES !!!

Biggest time waster and we take on average 9 hours to figure out who won.
And its not even our own game.
The Europeans have been doing the same in 80 minutes (Rugby/ Football)

We should have spent time on other fast mover games, Hockey and our very own Kabbadi.

Cricket is a deemak which promotes waiting 8hrs and sometimes 5 days to figure out who won.
No wonder it does not make it into Olympics.

Sorry Sorry OT but cricket just gets me going on and on and on.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Jul 2017 01:23

The final assembly line seen in Brarji's and the A-380 lines, has some big jigs to move things in 3 degrees of freedom and maybe some rotation. But beyond that, it has very little robotics capability seen. A couple of arms that are guided by operators to drive fasteners, that's about it. So this is not where the "crown jewels" of manufacturing are, hain? Surprising, because the US stated theme is that they will outsource the "details" but retain the System Design Integration and the Final Assembly in the US as the top value addition segments.

From what I see, the final assembly guy does not get to see inside most of the components, but there has to be some quality control knowledge on the final line. Otherwise it's getting close to the role of the car dealership. Clean, wax, and roll it into the showroom/parking lot to impress the suckers. Plus, ship them out.

Are fighter planes are shipped fully assembled, or in boxes (like Wrong Way WongWei's EP3) containing wings, tails etc separately. Or do they just fly them with long-distance fuel tanks?

By contrast look at an auto manufacturing line, from modern India. The caption says Hyundai, I have my doubts whether it is in India but I guess a given manufacturer has to use the same sort of tooling anywhere in the world.

You can see why the "final assembly line" is a looooong way from "production capability". The fun is building the composite fuselage and wing segments, plus the electronics, the hydraulics. So if one vendor offers full manufacturing in-country and the other offers "final assembly", there is a huuuge difference in resulting technical advances (assuming that you are able to learn something from the former).

Then again, note that a lot of CAD etc for aircraft parts is actually done in B'Looru by entities like RANAL. So maybe the plane is conceived in B'looru and ends up being born in Mumbai, traveling all over the world in between. Once you have Final Assembly, the manufacturer is motivated to move more of the production nearer. Look at the pains they undertake with the multi-nation Airboos 380, shipping huge pieces by road and canal! All political.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 14 Jul 2017 06:38

UlanBatori wrote:..
Then again, note that a lot of CAD etc for aircraft parts is actually done in B'Looru by entities like RANAL. So maybe the plane is conceived in B'looru and ends up being born in Mumbai, traveling all over the world in between. Once you have Final Assembly, the manufacturer is motivated to move more of the production nearer. Look at the pains they undertake with the multi-nation Airboos 380, shipping huge pieces by road and canal! All political.


There are companies in India that design ASICs (??) which may not be exported to India :)

We know how to design. We just can't make them for some reason.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Jul 2017 06:45

If only we could have a war between computer pictures made in china and ones made in India...


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