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'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2017 16:19

F-35 not yet battle-worthy to full capability,read recent posts on the same.Secondly,it will be a nightmare negotiating the secrecy/IP/ inspection clauses as even bumchum the UK got shafted over JSF secrets despite being an investor in the progr.It has also not been offered to us only the two antiques F-16 & F-18.Secondly JSF deliveries first to bumchums and second-class allies with diff. stds. of capability depending upon the amt. invested.Easy to do as it is so intensely software driven.India will in all likelihood get the "cattle class " version for the price of a "Palace on Wheels tkt.!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 06 Nov 2017 16:39

Philip wrote:F-35 not yet battle-worthy to full capability,read recent posts on the same.Secondly,it will be a nightmare negotiating the secrecy/IP/ inspection clauses as even bumchum the UK got shafted over JSF secrets despite being an investor in the progr.It has also not been offered to us only the two antiques F-16 & F-18.Secondly JSF deliveries first to bumchums and second-class allies with diff. stds. of capability depending upon the amt. invested.Easy to do as it is so intensely software driven.India will in all likelihood get the "cattle class " version for the price of a "Palace on Wheels tkt.!


Very interesting term. Please define - "battle-worthy to full capability".

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 06 Nov 2017 21:18

Layers of software one upon the other reqd. to incrementally raise the performance/combat capability of the bird,immensely software driven.If perfect a revolution in air warfare.The continuing problem with this trillion+ programme,the world's most expensive,has been with the software.Unless a certain level has been installed the bird can't be used in combat.There's one that detects faults while in the air,sends the data to logistics on the ground for swift solutions.But this software,ALIS (should be respelt AILS!) is in trouble with the Brits fuming.20 new glitches are being discovered every month (Pentagon) and the first production batch was delivered without hundreds rectified.

Aircraft yet to be perfected were sent to Japan supposedly "combat ready" but had to return.In fact,recent media reports, the entire first batch costing billions, may have to be trashed because there's no money to rectify their defects which will impact upon production of planned new fighters ! A lesson for our own modest LCA programme and the underperforming MK-1s.

While the US can keep funding the programme to salvage the trillion+ spent,and build a certain qty. before beginning work on a 6th-gen bird, smaller countries which are trading in their F-16s for JSFs will be truly shafted if the JSF ends up being a turkey, a v.v.expensive turkey too!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 06 Nov 2017 22:35

I am not a US fan boy and I advocate not putting too many eggs in the US basket but at the moment the F-35 is the only 5th gen aircraft out there. It has problems but if any one can fix it its the US. Even if the F-35 has to be used only against China it will be worth having . What else is available? The AMCA hasn't even been sanctioned. The less said about the FGFA the better. The Russian's air force themselves don't want the PAK-FA. They are trying to con the IAF into bankrolling the FGFA when they wont even let IAF pilot's near the PAKFA prototypes. What's the secrecy about? They know very well that if Indian pilots are allowed to fly it, additional shortcomings will be pointed out. With the Chinese starting to fly their 5th gen fighter(whatever form that maybe), the IAF cannot be left behind. The Chinese will transfer these aircraft to their pet poodle on our western border in the not to distant future. The IAF doesn't have too many options. If they want a 5th gen fighter in the not to distant future the F-35 is the only option. Forget any tech transfer. Its not going to happen. Just buy a few to cover out backsides and go full steam on the AMCA with tie-ups with the Europeans to accelerate the program.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 22:47

srai wrote:
Philip wrote:It appears to be the no.1 priority decision to be made asap of all def. deals.If the GOI does not take a decision come 2019 election time,it will be a mockery of the "more governance,less govt." election promise last time round. The pressure is also mounting not only from the IAF but the firang rivals.Lockheed have tied up with Tatas and SAAB with Adani.Don't also rule out the poss. of a G-to-G deal also happening.Easy to justify for both birds.F-16,as a strat. partner of the US,cementing the relationship as the US desp. wants. Gripen selected as being a more modern fighter and the F-16 also used by Pak.

Why the French are also desperate for more Rafale orders as once this $10B+ deal is sealed,there won'e be much moolah left for Rafales at such prices,twice that of an SE fighter. Plus pressure from Russia too on the FGFA deal.Slow LCA dev.prod. is an understandable reason why the SE must be fast-tracked,as even with the LCA there's scope for at least 300-400 SE/LCAs,enough to keep both HAL and the firang winner happy.The French "Macaroon" is coming post haste in Dec. to try and persuade Modi to order more Rafales just as he did when he was in Paris.The 3 vultures are circling...

Weren't the same things being said the last time around in the MMRCA? In India, nothing happens quick. The other issue, not enough money around. To the general public, importing new foreign fighters is not even a priority when it comes to winning their votes.

srai is spot on. What ***might*** happen (and even that is highly unlikely at this point) is that President Macron of France pulls off a repeat order of 36 Rafales when he visits in December. And that will bolster the Govt's case that they are serious about addressing the squadron shortage in the IAF.

Even G2G deals have to go through certain parameters. Please review the C-130 & C-17 transports and the AH-64 Apache & Chinook helicopters. Correct me if I am wrong, but these were G2G deals AFAIK. The AH-64 was pitted against the Mi-28 and won. The Chinook was pitted against the Mi-26T and won. The C-17 was pitted against the IL-76 and won. But they were acquired through the FMS (Foreign Military Sales) route. Way quicker than the traditional competition process.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 06 Nov 2017 22:55

You can bet your bottom dollar that with Ambani in the picture more Rafale's are a done deal. They wouldn't invest in infrastructure in Nagpur like they are doing if it was not going to happen.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 22:59

Will wrote:I am not a US fan boy and I advocate not putting too many eggs in the US basket but at the moment the F-35 is the only 5th gen aircraft out there. It has problems but if any one can fix it its the US. Even if the F-35 has to be used only against China it will be worth having. What else is available?

Well said. +108 to you Saar.

With a F-35 purchase, the IAF can still induct 250+ Tejas. Here is a possible breakdown.

- 17 Su-30MKI Squadrons - 312 aircraft (272 confirmed + 40 more on order)****
- 14 Tejas Squadrons - 252 aircraft
- 2 Rafale Squadrons - 36 aircraft
- 3 upgraded MiG-29 Squadrons - 54 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 2.5 upgraded Mirage 2000 Squadrons - 45 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 6 Jaguar Squadrons - 108 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)

***Split the Rambha replacement into F-35 and FGFA purchases. The above table comes to 44.5 squadrons. As much as the IAF despises that plane, geopolitical circumstances will force us to acquire them. 10 F-35 squadrons + 7 FGFA squadrons.

In this way, Unkil gets her piece of the pie and wins the SE competition. A G2G deal would be a better bet, but whatever. Russia gets the satisfaction that the India is invested in the FGFA purchase. Tejas gets a 252 aircraft order (40 aircraft from SP-1 to SP-40 is being delivered, place order for 212 more, so from SP-41 to SP-252) and AMCA will roll along in the mid 2030s when the MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars will begin the retirement phase.

So in 2032, a possible IAF Orbat could look like the following;

- 17 Su-30MKI Squadrons - 312 aircraft ---> to replaced with 10 F-35 squadrons + 7 FGFA squadrons.
- 14 Tejas Squadrons - 252 aircraft
- 2 Rafale Squadrons - 36 aircraft
- 3 upgraded MiG-29 Squadrons - 54 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 2.5 upgraded Mirage 2000 Squadrons - 45 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 6 Jaguar Squadrons - 108 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)

Even with the above scenario, money is a key issue. The IAF cannot afford Rafale, F-16/Gripen, Tejas, AMCA and FGFA. Something has to give somewhere. However, bring the F-35 into the mix and perhaps you can do away with the FGFA all together. Reducing the number of Rambha 1-to-1 squadron replacements should be looked into.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 23:10

Will wrote:You can bet your bottom dollar that with Ambani in the picture more Rafale's are a done deal. They wouldn't invest in infrastructure in Nagpur like they are doing if it was not going to happen.

That will happen down the road. So if one factors two additional Rafale squadrons into the mix, this is what could happen by 2032.

- 17 Su-30MKI Squadrons - 312 aircraft ---> to replaced with 10 F-35 squadrons (180 aircraft) + 5 FGFA squadrons (90 aircraft).
- 14 Tejas Squadrons - 252 aircraft
- 4 Rafale Squadrons - 72 aircraft
- 3 upgraded MiG-29 Squadrons - 54 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 2.5 upgraded Mirage 2000 Squadrons - 45 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 6 Jaguar Squadrons - 108 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 06 Nov 2017 23:50

Rakesh wrote:
Will wrote:You can bet your bottom dollar that with Ambani in the picture more Rafale's are a done deal. They wouldn't invest in infrastructure in Nagpur like they are doing if it was not going to happen.

That will happen down the road. So if one factors two additional Rafale squadrons into the mix, this is what could happen by 2032.

- 17 Su-30MKI Squadrons - 312 aircraft ---> to replaced with 10 F-35 squadrons (180 aircraft) + 5 FGFA squadrons (90 aircraft).
- 14 Tejas Squadrons - 252 aircraft
- 4 Rafale Squadrons - 72 aircraft
- 3 upgraded MiG-29 Squadrons - 54 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 2.5 upgraded Mirage 2000 Squadrons - 45 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)
- 6 Jaguar Squadrons - 108 aircraft (to be replaced with AMCA)


Rakesh saar, I don't think Su-30 will not be coming up for replacement so early. By 2014 even the earliest Su-30MKI had barely used 1/3rd of their life (1st overhaul happened in 2014 and they needed extension because they used up less than specified no of hours). At best only 2-3 Sq will be up for replacement by 2032, which will be replaced by FGFA. Anyway I don't see FGFA coming in before 2030, if at all. Majority of our Su-30MKI will be there well past 2040s.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Nov 2017 23:53

Saar, agreed. I was using easy Math but it turned out to be Lahori math :) How is this by 2032?

- 17 Su-30MKI Squadrons - 312 aircraft ---> to replaced with FGFA and AMCA****
- 14 Tejas Squadrons - 252 aircraft
- 4 Rafale Squadrons - 72 aircraft
- 3 upgraded MiG-29 Squadrons - 54 aircraft (to be replaced with F-35)
- 2.5 upgraded Mirage 2000 Squadrons - 45 aircraft (to be replaced with F-35)
- 6 Jaguar Squadrons - 108 aircraft (to be replaced with F-35)

***Taking your date stamp (2 - 3 Rambha Sqns will be up for replacement by 2032), fits in fairly well with the FGFA and AMCA induction schedules. I personally do not see either plane joining the IAF until 2035 at the earliest. Start slow production of both and one can time it with Rambha replacement.

At the end of the day, one has to look at what capabilities do these platforms (FGFA, AMCA and F-35) offer the IAF. I am personally not a believer of this single engine, twin engine bakwaas. That is some bull cooked up to justify importing. Even the current two aircraft in the SE competition are like apples and oranges. The F-16 has a longer reach, a more powerful engine and can carry a heavier payload. Basically the Block 70 is a glorified bomb truck. The Gripen is the anti Block 70.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 00:09

^^ All that we need is couple of Rafale Sq, as many LCA as we can produce with 24 or even 32/yr until 2030-35 and full support for AMCA. All the money saved should be invested in force multipliers such as AWACS, Refueller, transporters et al.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 07 Nov 2017 00:14

Rakesh wrote:Saar, agreed. I was using easy Math but it turned out to be Lahori math :)


No wonder I found it okay because I am half Lahoria.
ha ha ha

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 00:38

Khalsa wrote:No wonder I found it okay because I am half Lahoria.
ha ha ha

:rotfl: Aiyoo, Sorry Saar!

JayS wrote:^^ All that we need is couple of Rafale Sq, as many LCA as we can produce with 24 or even 32/yr until 2030-35 and full support for AMCA. All the money saved should be invested in force multipliers such as AWACS, Refueller, transporters et al.

I agree 100% But the powers that be want to invest in SE phoren fighters. What to do?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 01:12

JayS wrote:^^ All that we need is couple of Rafale Sq, as many LCA as we can produce with 24 or even 32/yr until 2030-35 and full support for AMCA. All the money saved should be invested in force multipliers such as AWACS, Refueller, transporters et al.


$10-billion fighter deal hits tech-transfer air pocket :lol: :rotfl:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 945734.ece

India’s $10-billion single-engine fighter jet deal is believed to have hit a stumbling block over the contentious issue of transfer of technology (ToT) and equity participation. This is while negotiations are on for the purchase of more Rafale jets from France. The two main contenders for the deal — Lockheed Martin and SAAB — have made it clear to the Defence Ministry that they will not go in for a complete transfer of technology (ToT) with 49 per cent equity participation in the joint ventures that they have inked with their respective Indian partners, sources told Business Line. Under the defence foreign direct investment rules, global OEMs can invest more than 49 per cent with prior government approval. However, the fighter-jet deal has to be executed under the new ‘Strategic Partnership’ (SP) policy, and as per the norms laid out in this policy, it is the Indian entity that will have a controlling stake with 51 per cent.

The Defence Ministry is looking to acquire at least 100 of these jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF). While the US’ Lockheed Martin has offered the advanced F-16 Block 70, Swedish defence major SAAB has presented its single-engine multi-role Gripen E for the programme. Lockheed Martin and SAAB have also joined hands with Tata Advance Defence Systems Ltd and the Adani Group, respectively, to design, develop and produce the warplanes in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme. The issue of proprietary technology was also raised by US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson during his visit last month. He made it clear that ToT will come for a price.

The government is now looking at a follow-on order to buy more Rafale jets, which will be in addition to the 36 bought in September last year for $8.9 billion. The IAF is also keen on buying more of these warplanes, according to sources. The decision to buy more Rafale jets from Dassault Aviation is likely to be announced during the visit of French President Emmanuel Macron in December, sources added. However, the sources said, India has already informed the French that “not a single” Rafale will be bought in flyaway mode — they will be built in the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, run by Reliance Aerospace Ltd and Dassault Aviation in the Mihan Special Economic Zone in Nagpur. Dassault Aviation Chief Eric Trappier had recently said, in France, that the company is in talks with India for more orders.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 01:18

Saab, Adani JV eyes UAVs, helicopters manufacturing other than fighter jets to India
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/21165#.WgC7ndIzXVI

Swedish Saab and Indian Adani group joint venture is eyeing to produce a portfolio of products that include unmanned aerial vehicles, helicopters apart from supplying fighter jets to the Indian armed forces. Asish Rajvanshi, head of the Adani Group’s Defence and Aerospace division, said the joint venture was focusing on developing “foundational capabilities” to produce a wide-range of products in the aerospace sector for the domestic as well as export markets, PTI reports stated Sunday. In September, Saab and the Adani Group had announced collaboration in defence manufacturing entailing billions of dollars of investment and said the joint venture would produce Gripen military jets in India if it won the single-engine aircraft deal.

Chairman and Managing Director of Saab Group's India operation Jan Widerstrom too said the JV was not only eyeing the lucrative fighter jet deal but also looking at other areas. Rajvanshi and Widerstrom said the joint venture was aiming at building unmanned aerial vehicle, military helicopters and various other aerospace components and equipment with a broad focus on developing a world-class ecosystem for the aerospace sector in India. “If Gripen does not happen, it does not matter. We have started the journey of building foundational capabilities...We will pursue the UAV programme, the helicopter programme,” Rajvanshi told newswire PTI when asked about the future of the JV if it did not get the fighter jet deal.

The government is set to start the process soon for procuring a fleet of single-engine fighters for the IAF and U.S. defence firm Lockheed Martin will be a major competitor for Saab for the deal. The fighter jets will be produced jointly by a foreign aircraft maker along with an Indian company under the recently launched strategic partnership model which seeks to bring in high-end defence technology to India. Officials said the request for information, kick-starting the acquisition process, will begin “very soon.” In May, the government had unveiled the strategic partnership model under which select private firms will collaborate to build military platforms such as submarines and fighter jets in India in partnership with foreign entities.

Widerstrom said Saab was excited about the Indian market and was looking forward to the implementation of the strategic partnership model. “There is a need to shape it in a way that it focuses on enabling the strategic partner to build up a long term sustainable capability rather than specific business oriented capacity,” he said. The government has been focusing on strengthening the capability of the IAF. In September last year, India signed Euro 7.87- billion (approx Rs 59,000 crore) deal with the French government for the purchase of 36 Rafale twin-engine fighter jets. The IAF was keen on a follow-on order of 36 additional Rafales. The supply of Rafale jets is scheduled to start from September 2019. Sources said the IAF would start receiving a fresh fleet of 36 Sukhoi jets from 2019.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cybaru » 07 Nov 2017 02:32

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:^^ All that we need is couple of Rafale Sq, as many LCA as we can produce with 24 or even 32/yr until 2030-35 and full support for AMCA. All the money saved should be invested in force multipliers such as AWACS, Refueller, transporters et al.


$10-billion fighter deal hits tech-transfer air pocket :lol: :rotfl:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/new ... 945734.ece


If they use the Kaveri-M88 engine for new build rafales and Thales transfers RBE2 to LRDE and the RBE2 is made in india along with further work of integration with missiles, it doesn't matter who assembles the rafale (HAL/ADNANI/Reliance) etc.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 06:38

Here’s Lockheed Martin’s ‘next generation roadmap’ for the F-16 if India chooses to plug in. Courtesy @Livefist.

Image

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 06:40

And here’s Lockheed Martin’s official kit chart for a prospective Make In India F-16 Block 70. Courtesy @Livefist.

Image

Image

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 07 Nov 2017 07:54

^^^

Basically what that shows is that if F-16 is selected the IAF will also have to import those integrated US weapons. Import all the way!!!

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 07 Nov 2017 08:34

The F-16 will not come. Already rejected by the IAF, it is a dying a slow death among policy makers in the GoI now. When you don't comply with the rules of the Babu, even Bhagwan cannot help you then. As the joke in the North Block goes....Babu > Bhagwan.

What is surprising is how they got outplayed in the marketing game and the ground game by Saab and Dassault. One would think, being an American company - with scores of successful deals behind them - they would have this in the bag by now. This should have been an easy win for them. Arrogance by offering the wrong platform, underestimation of Babudom, placing faith in an unclear program like Make in India, ignoring the real customer are some of the many factors that have contributed to this.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2017 09:36

If the US is so tightfisted about a 50 yr old F-16 bird then imagine the hooplah over acquiring the JSF! Believe me it will be a miracle if that bird ever comes to India flying IAF roundels.It has also not been offered and is still-as explained not battle worthy.

The VCoAS stated,posted here that Russia offers full TOT with no strings attached.It will set us back a couple of decades if the FGFA is not finalised as we are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to aircraft design and engineering,esp. the entire aero-engine discipline.How long the GOI can fillibuster the FHFA deal remains to be seen.The Russians have their own timetable and later on we - if we want the bird will have far less leverage than as of now.

Leaving that issue of a stealth fighter aside, the GOI appears to be caught in a vice; between Ambani (linked with the Rafale deal from inception) and Adani upon whom "the Gods smile favourably".Odds are therefore closing on a Gripen-Adani win for the SE and a Reliance-Dassault win for more Rafales.Both decisions will happen before the elections. The FGFA may still be in the ICU and the LCA in the common ward.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 12:17

Looks like US is using "trade-deficit" as counter to India's "ToT" demand. US wants to sell F16 without any significant ToT and wants India to buy it as is to reduce Trade Deficit. They are also doing things like putting Rupee under monitoring. And it will not stop here. Various drones, weapons will be pushed down our throat with this same pressure tactics. It would be prudent for India to only buy, in such scenario, the stuff which acts as force-multipliers either technologically (for development of our own systems in coming time) or capability wise for our AF. Fill the gaps where we lack, rather than duplicate things which we already have.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2017 13:24

Jay you're right.The GOI should immediately review the entire threat scenario current and future holistically and the immediate reqs. of the services,using the most cost-effective manner.Import what cannot be developed/built by us within a short span,and only then the most critical "game-changers" as you say,or systems reqd. to fill gaping holes in our defence like subs,MCM vessels,ASW helos,etc. The IAF reqs. both numbers and quality. Numbers have aquality of their own.Acceptable aircraft,esp. those already being used and relatively contemporary,if acquired in extra numbers will cost the least allowing money saved for rela game-changers like more AWACS,AEW aircraft,tankers,transports and heavylift helos.Development of the armed Hawk for CS/GA duties would be far cheaper than sending a $50-100M aircraft to do the biz! Why the R. Co. and Adani can't build the LCA in extra prod. lines beats me.Someone should raise this Q in parliament why our pvt. industry has not risen to the occasion to build the LCA.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby abhik » 07 Nov 2017 18:47

Rakesh wrote:Here’s Lockheed Martin’s ‘next generation roadmap’ for the F-16 if India chooses to plug in. Courtesy @Livefist.

Image

Wonder if originally there was a Pakistan flag (amongst others) on the green bar for BLK 52 which they erased out.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Khalsa » 08 Nov 2017 00:59

JayS wrote:Looks like US is using "trade-deficit" as counter to India's "ToT" demand. US wants to sell F16 without any significant ToT and wants India to buy it as is to reduce Trade Deficit. They are also doing things like putting Rupee under monitoring. And it will not stop here. Various drones, weapons will be pushed down our throat with this same pressure tactics. It would be prudent for India to only buy, in such scenario, the stuff which acts as force-multipliers either technologically (for development of our own systems in coming time) or capability wise for our AF. Fill the gaps where we lack, rather than duplicate things which we already have.


Well captured.
Agreed. It will pay to just buy from USA and not go in for ToT.

I also believe there is another angle that we are not looking at.
The ability to buy GE engines for LCA and GE engines for AMCA.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Nov 2017 05:01

while joining a coaching institute (paying for ToT) increases the probability of one clearing JEE (getting the holy grail of ToT) the odds are still not in favor (historical experience)
If we havent got it from russia very unlikely US will give it
In the end we will have to study after coming back to home and get things ourselves only. If we think otherwise we are simply fooling ourselves. Happy to be proven wrong

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2017 05:29

You make a good point Khalsa-ji. The ability to buy GE engines for LCA and AMCA. Let us extrapolate that scenario to its logical conclusion --> so if & when F-16 loses the SE competition, America will not allow India to buy more F404 engines for Mk1 and Mk1A and no F414 engines for AMCA out of spite. Will America take that step? I don't believe it will. China is a threat to American dominance in the IOR, South China Sea and East China Sea. Will the US risk alienating India over the SE fighter competition, only to see China's belligerent behaviour continue unchecked? Not worth it, as the stakes are too high for the US.

Regardless, if and when Saab does win....GE will be laughing all the way to the bank. At a minimum order of 100 AMCAs (200 F414 engines at minimum), 123 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As (123 F404 engines at minimum), 100+ Gripen Es (100 F414 engines at minimum). After all is said and done, GE is looking at an order of ~ 500 jet engines and that is a very conservative figure. Be wary though of the MIC. As President Eisenhower said, "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military–industrial complex."

Apart from the F-16 as a dated platform, the issue with the acquisition of American military equipment lies with their fickle minded politics. The 2016 US Presidential election - which caused a lot of rhona-dhona among BRF's import lobby - proved that. From Nixon to Gerald Ford to Carter to Regan to Bush Senior to Clinton to Bush Junior to Obama and now to Trump, there is no consistency in their foreign policy. The arrival of Trump (and the departure of Ashton Carter and Manohar Parrikar) turned out to be a blessing in disguise for the SE competition. The lack of consistency is dicey for India that is still purchasing a large amount of weaponry from abroad.

Take the Mirage 2000 purchase from France for example. She arrived in 1985 on Indian Shores and she has now spent over 32+ years in IAF service. In 1985, the President of France was François Mitterrand (left leaning). Jacques Chirac came in 1995 (right leaning), then Nicolas Sarkozy came in 2007 (again right leaning), François Hollande in 2012 (left leaning) and now Emmanuel Macron (centerist). In France, political parties have changed back and forth but the French are all about business and making money. The IAF easily did a desi jugaad on the Mirage 2000 - during Kargil - that would be hard to do on an American platform like the F-16 without Unkil's approval.

Is India really prepared to have a minimum of 150+ single engine fighters (national assets bought and paid for by the Govt of India) be subject to stringent approvals and conditions from the US? How many "annual" French inspections has anyone heard of at Maharajpur AFS in Gwalior where the Mirage 2000s are based? The French will rape you - like the Mirage 2000 upgrade - but day to day operations of their aircraft in the IAF are really not their concern. Also, when did the French encourage India to sign agreements like LSA, CISMOA, BECA that the US is currently doing?

The meaning of Strategic Partnership among policy makers in the United States and their counterparts in India are like night and day. In the US, India is an extension arm of US foreign policy - to be used against China. In India, our policy makers are naive to believe that anything of value will flow from these military contracts with the US. All this talk of a global supply chain; hundreds of F-16s needing upgrades; 28 countries; industrial partnership, etc is smoke-and-mirrors to mask the real issue - screwdrivergiri. Be wary, India.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 08 Nov 2017 05:36

ArjunPandit wrote:while joining a coaching institute (paying for ToT) increases the probability of one clearing JEE (getting the holy grail of ToT) the odds are still not in favor (historical experience)
If we havent got it from russia very unlikely US will give it
In the end we will have to study after coming back to home and get things ourselves only. If we think otherwise we are simply fooling ourselves. Happy to be proven wrong

Let me flip that scenario. Sri Lanka is currently looking to replace their ageing fighters. The JF-17 was a contendor, but the deal fell through. If India does succeed in selling the Tejas to Sri Lanka, would the former agree if the latter asked for ToT? So why should the US do the same for India? Why should any country do the same for India?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 08 Nov 2017 07:31

:mrgreen:

Yes, if Sri Lanka purchases LCA and demands full ToT then it seems India will gladly oblige (given how some believe others to do the same for India). Using three decades of Indian aerospace knowledge, the Srilankans would then go on to build their own new generation of fighters. Maybe they will even be willing to sell those to India in 30-years (and promise ToT) in a never-ending import saga of another MMRCA/SE MII competition :P

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Nov 2017 18:11

Rakesh wrote:Let me flip that scenario. Sri Lanka is currently looking to replace their ageing fighters. The JF-17 was a contendor, but the deal fell through. If India does succeed in selling the Tejas to Sri Lanka, would the former agree if the latter asked for ToT? So why should the US do the same for India? Why should any country do the same for India?

srai wonderfully answered it :0, exactly my thoughts. I have high hopes from our 11 point criteria :)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Nov 2017 18:28

The 'trade deficit' argument for military imports from the US is spurious:

It has already been addressed by shifting oil/LNG purchases from the ME to the US.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1C80VE

Also, it's not about about the GE 404/414 being at risk in the event the SE is sourced from Sweden. It is the joint development of an advanced engine in India which could be with PW or GE. No SE from US, no engine development under DTTI. Similarly, no 'foundational agreements', no advanced tech for US equipment.

These are some of the dynamics driving stuff around the SE:

1. Modi wants an aerospace industry/ecosystem built on private sector participation

2. IAF wants a plane

3. HAL/PSU lobbies want screwdriver workfare monopoly

4. France/Sweden want to sell a plane

5. US/Japan want the 'Security Diamond' through interoperability of equipment

6. MoD does not know what it wants. Witness the 'Sea Guardian' drones that Modi pushed in June and now mysteriously languishing in bureaucratic limbo.

7. Indian 'Lords of War' want commissions which won't be forthcoming if the SE is from the US

8....add your own

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 08 Nov 2017 19:16

It is the joint development of an advanced engine in India which could be with PW or GE.


Mark Pearson, of GE, had made a presentation at AI17, which had a slide on the path to an engine for the AMCA. YT has a vid if that presentation, I had posted it in the AMCA thread. As far as I know GE B'luru was tasked with the effort.

viewtopic.php?t=5739&start=2760#p2199425

No SE from US, no engine development under DTTI.


Do not think they are tied to that extent. India could pay in any other form.

The F-teens for engine techs was a deal made by Parrikar (with help from Carter). Now that both have left the field both sides are repositioning. the problem, as I see, that they have not been able to overcome is the number of jobs, a Trumpism (and perhaps some tech transfer that Obama allowed, Trump has restricted).

The rest is par for the course. However, if Parriker/Carter were around things would not be as sticky. But as long as Trump is at the helm we should expect this rudderless, direction less behavior.

BTW, did you get to check out a white paper by Aston Carter that was removed from the internet (in the past week) at the request of the US Joint Chief of Staff? It had a section on how the Chinese are pumping monies into startups in silicon valley and preventing such startups from selling latest techs to the Pentagon (and I guess porting them to China).

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 08 Nov 2017 19:52

This was the Sept.17th report,which I think was posted earlier,where Trump backs winning Indian def. orders.

Exclusive: U.S. defence firms want control over tech in Make-in-India plan
Aditya Kalra, Sanjeev Miglani
6 MIN READ
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - U.S. defence firms offering to set up production lines in India to win deals worth billions of dollars want stronger assurances they won’t have to part with proprietary technology, according to a business lobby group’s letter to India’s defence minister. :rotfl:

A U.S. naval F/A-18 Super Hornet aircraft takes off from the USS Kitty Hawk aircraft carrier during wargames between navies of India, Japan, Australia and Singapore in the Bay of Bengal September 7, 2007. REUTERS/Adnan Abidi/File Photo
These companies are also saying they shouldn’t be held liable for defects in products manufactured in collaboration with local partners under Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make-in-India’s drive to build a military industrial base.

Lockheed Martin and Boeing are both bidding to supply combat jets to India’s military, which is running short of hundreds of aircraft as it retires Soviet-era MiG planes, and its own three-decade long effort to produce a domestic jet is hobbled by delays.

Lockheed has offered to shift its F-16 production line to India from Fort Worth, Texas, and make it the sole factory worldwide if India orders at least 100 single-engine fighters.

The U.S. firm has picked Tata Advanced Systems as its local partner under the defence ministry’s new Strategic Partnership model under which foreign original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) can hold up to a 49 percent stake in a joint venture with an Indian private firm which will hold the majority of shares.

The U.S.-India Business Council (USIBC) wrote to India’s defence minister last month seeking a guarantee that U.S. firms would retain control over sensitive technology - even as joint venture junior partners.
:mrgreen:
“Control of proprietary technologies is a major consideration for all companies exploring public and private defence partnerships,” the business lobby, which represents 400 firms, said in the Aug. 3 letter, reviewed by Reuters and previously unreported.

“To allow foreign OEMs to provide the most advanced technologies, the partnership arrangement between an Indian owned ‘strategic partner’ company and a foreign OEM needs to provide an opportunity for the foreign OEM to retain control over its proprietary technology,” it said, noting this wasn’t explicit in the policy document.

TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER

Technology transfer is at the heart of Modi’s drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut a reliance on imports that has made India the world’s biggest arms importer in recent years.

Without full tech transfer in previous arms deals, India’s mainly state-run defence factories have largely been left to assemble knock-down kits even for tanks and aircraft produced under license from the foreign maker.

Modi’s advisers have vowed to change that, insisting on transfer of technology so that critical military equipment are designed and manufactured in India.

A U.S. F-16 aircraft makes a landing during a joint India-U.S. air force exercises at the Kalaikunda Airbase, west of Kolkata, India, November 17, 2005. REUTERS/Jayanta Shaw/Files
Benjamin Schwartz, USIBC’s director for defense and aerospace, said the new Indian policy offered a roadmap for establishing partnerships between U.S. and Indian companies, but it raised some questions for the firms.

He said he was not in a position to name those companies concerned by the Indian policy, but there was a “general desire to see increased clarity” on several aspects, including the control of proprietary technologies.

QUALITY ISSUES

The USIBC also opposed a clause in the new rules that held foreign firms jointly responsible for the quality of the platforms provided to the military, saying legal liability is a significant factor in business decisions.

“We recommend the MoD (Ministry of Defence) affirm that foreign OEMs will not be liable for defects outside their company’s control,” the USIBC said. *(Ha!ha!Ha!) :rotfl:

Lockheed did not respond to a request for comment. Boeing, which is bidding for a separate contract to sell its F/A-18 Super Hornets for India’s aircraft carrier fleet, declined to comment on the USIBC letter. But the company’s India president, Pratyush Kumar, told a conference this month there were concerns about Indian private firms’ lack of experience in the aerospace sector.

Only state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd had made planes under license, while some private players were starting from scratch, having never built even an aircraft component. Kumar said he could not find a single example worldwide of a private enterprise with limited experience building out a plane under transfer of technology.

“Look at Turkey, look at Japan, look at Brazil - look at multiple countries. In all cases there is a fine balancing act of co-opting the capabilities of both public and private enterprise,” Kumar said at a conference organised by the Centre for Air Power Studies, a think-tank of the Indian air force.

India’s defence ministry offered no response to the concerns expressed by the trade lobbying group on the strategic partnership model, which will also apply to building submarines and helicopters as part of a $150 billion modernisation drive.

But an official, referring to sensitive technology, said the government has made clear in the past that foreign firms can be allowed to increase their stake beyond 49 percent if the technology they bring in is state-of-the art.

“It can be done on a case-to-case basis,” the official said.

Mukesh Aghi, president of the U.S.-India Strategic Partnership Forum, said that despite the starting problems, defence manufacturing looked set to be a breakthrough area in ties between India and the United States.

“It’s the next big thing. There is strong support from the (U.S. President Donald) Trump administration to take this forward.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 08 Nov 2017 21:17

^^^
...
TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER

Technology transfer is at the heart of Modi’s drive to build a domestic industrial base and cut a reliance on imports that has made India the world’s biggest arms importer in recent years.

Without full tech transfer in previous arms deals, India’s mainly state-run defence factories have largely been left to assemble knock-down kits even for tanks and aircraft produced under license from the foreign maker.

Modi’s advisers have vowed to change that, insisting on transfer of technology so that critical military equipment are designed and manufactured in India.
...
...But the company’s India president, Pratyush Kumar, told a conference this month there were concerns about Indian private firms’ lack of experience in the aerospace sector.

Only state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd had made planes under license, while some private players were starting from scratch, having never built even an aircraft component. Kumar said he could not find a single example worldwide of a private enterprise with limited experience building out a plane under transfer of technology.
...

Just who are these advisers of Modi? They are going down the wrong path.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 08 Nov 2017 22:27

tSir Philip,

U.S. defence firms offering to set up production lines in India to win deals worth billions of dollars want stronger assurances they won’t have to part with proprietary technology, according to a business lobby group’s letter to India’s defence minister. :rotfl:


The U.S.-India Business Council (USIBC) wrote to India’s defence minister last month seeking a guarantee that U.S. firms would retain control over sensitive technology - even as joint venture junior partners.
:mrgreen:


This is included in what I meant by "par for the course".

On a 1-10 scale, this is about 2/3. 10 - which does happen -'is when employees need escorts to visit the bathroom!

There are Indian companies in the US, which have secure contracts, that follow these procedures.

Any US company that has a secure contracts follows the very same procedure.

If one works on a product - as an example radar - then one has to follow these + procedures that are instituted by that company.



BTW, it was my understanding that the HAL facilities in Nashik was because the Soviets wanted to have a secure facility to build their planes. Away from B'luru.

I would imagine and hope the likes of ISRO and GTRE would have similar requirements.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Will » 08 Nov 2017 23:10

The IAF should be told, "order another 200 LCA and you will get 90 more Rafales" . Throw in 2-3 sqns of the F-35, chuck the rest and concentrate on the AMCA. A start to keeping the type of aircraft in the IAF inventory to a minimal . India is a diverse country , dosen't mean that the diversity needs to be carried into IAF inventories. :twisted: :twisted: :mrgreen:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 09 Nov 2017 01:15

N Rao wrote

BTW, it was my understanding that the HAL facilities in Nashik was because the Soviets wanted to have a secure facility to build their planes. Away from B'luru.
-----

The MiG complex had three locations, Koraput for Engines, Nashik for assembly and Hyderabad for avionics.

If you read Chavan's War diaries where the discussions are recorded it was jobs program to satisfy the Congress Satraps like Chavan, Biju Patnaik and Sanjiva Reddy. One plan was to put it all in Nashik but as Chavan was Defence Minister it would not look good. The Russians wanted in one place.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Nov 2017 05:55

Saab, Adani may expand JV scope
http://www.janes.com/article/75517/saab ... d-jv-scope

A teaming agreement between Saab and Adani Group designed to support the former’s Gripen E fighter bid to the Indian Air Force may be extended to include the potential development of unmanned aerial vehicles and rotorcraft. A collaboration plan was released by the two companies in September 2017, which claimed they were focusing on Gripen and “other high-tech products” for the Indian market. Saab has confirmed that UAV and rotorcraft development are “excellent ideas” that it intends to consider in the future, although there is no formal plan in place to extend the agreement to these areas at present, with the main focus remaining with Gripen.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 09 Nov 2017 16:28

One recent report quoting the " Trump administration" has it that unless we sign the "full Patton" on the alphabet agreements like CISMOA,etc., meshing us with the US war machine,we can kiss TOT goodbye. This puts SAAB in pole position on the SE front.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby NRao » 09 Nov 2017 17:36

Dunno. Personally do not see that happening. SAAB now has to get past Trump and he will get his pound of flesh and blood. Just cannot see Trump giving the advantage to a non US company.


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