Bharat Rakshak Forum Announcement

Hello Everyone,

A warm welcome back to the Bharat Rakshak Forum.

Important Notice: Due to a corruption in the BR forum database we regret to announce that data records relating to some of our registered users have been lost. We estimate approx. 500 user details are deleted.

To ease the process of recreating the user IDs we request members that have previously posted on the BR forums to recognise and identify their posts, once the posts are identified please contact the BRF moderator team by emailing BRF Mod Team with your post details.

The mod team will be able to update your username, email etc. so that the user history can be maintained.

Unfortunately for members that have never posted or have had all their posts deleted i.e. users that have 0 posts, we will be unable to recreate your account hence we request that you re-register again.

We apologise for any inconvenience caused and thank you for your understanding.

Regards,
Seetal

'Make in India' Single engined fighter

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 20 Sep 2017 17:34

The amount of time and effort put in to creating a new line for an old imported fighter will easliy allow for an increase in production rates for LCA. To an extent that the gap in fighter.numbera can be filled relatively quickly.

The HAL chief is on record that an investment of 1600 ces will allow him to double the production of LCA.

So why not invest that money at HAL only.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 20 Sep 2017 18:08

Pratyush wrote:The amount of time and effort put in to creating a new line for an old imported fighter will easliy allow for an increase in production rates for LCA. To an extent that the gap in fighter.numbera can be filled relatively quickly.

The HAL chief is on record that an investment of 1600 ces will allow him to double the production of LCA.

So why not invest that money at HAL only.


Being done slowly. But clearly GOI is not throwing its full weight behind it.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2024
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby abhik » 20 Sep 2017 19:57

"^^^LM has stated that by the 7th year, it expects to roll out a near completely 'locally sourced' F-16. So 90% by year 6 is not a stretch."
It will be 50% by value not 90%, similar to what we are doing for MKI and what was expected in the MRCA deal.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 20 Sep 2017 20:26

Any imported fighter as long as it is not LCA. If the production of LCA is not scaled up. India will forever dependent of taking easy way out for defense production. And forever stuck at screwdriver level of technology.

It is really a choice of no choice. However you spin it.

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 115
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby arvin » 20 Sep 2017 21:09

Since this is destined to be another screwdriver giri project can we extract something from the engine makers
of the winning plane.
There are 3 engines in the fray here 1.) GE f110 & PW F100 for F-16 2.) GE f414.
Just like snecma was asked to make kaveri flightworthy via its offset obligation, my wish here is make GE or PW help
us in making a instrumented B747 flying test bed by borrowing 1 from Air Indias fleet of 4.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 05:21

arvin: Expect nothing of value in the DTTI engine deal. No company on earth is going to give away their valuable IP. GE will do the same that Snecma is doing now.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 05:25

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^LM has stated that by the 7th year, it expects to roll out a near completely 'locally sourced' F-16. So 90% by year 6 is not a stretch.

Near completely locally sourced F-16 by year seven? So apart from the engine and the AESA radar, everything else will be locally sourced by the seventh year?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5883
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2017 05:41

The pro-import lobby should make up their mind on what they think will be the true gain:

1. When ToT is questioned, they move to job creation,
2. When job creation is questioned, they move to building up ab-initio companies,
3. When ab-initio companies are questioned, they move to ToT.

Bhai, first make up your mind, before you start to argue!

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 06:27

Bait & Switch Indranil Saar. Bait and Switch! :)

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3346
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 Sep 2017 06:56

Rakesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:^^^LM has stated that by the 7th year, it expects to roll out a near completely 'locally sourced' F-16. So 90% by year 6 is not a stretch.

Near completely locally sourced F-16 by year seven? So apart from the engine and the AESA radar, everything else will be locally sourced by the seventh year?


Why don't you ask them? It's in the public domain.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3346
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cosmo_R » 21 Sep 2017 07:09

Indranil wrote:The pro-import lobby should make up their mind on what they think will be the true gain:

1. When ToT is questioned, they move to job creation,
2. When job creation is questioned, they move to building up ab-initio companies,
3. When ab-initio companies are questioned, they move to ToT.

Bhai, first make up your mind, before you start to argue!


There seems to be a massive misconception among the so-called 'indigenous PSU lobby ' that the SE is going to come at the expense of LCA/AMCA/HAL etc. Just look at what has happened in the past. The competition for financial resources has come from populist schemes. The game has been to drag out negotiation (anyone remember the MMRCA?) and to return defense allocation back to MoD and use them to fund populist job schemes to win votes.

The 'import lobby' now led by Narendra Modi, wants to use defense monies to fund populist urban job schemes. The 'indigenous PSU lobby' has a long list of questions regarding MII, no answers but their minds are already made up.

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 21 Sep 2017 07:27

Why don't you answer the questions and see if they stand the BS test to your self.

You will see that they don't. Because for every answer you will give. You will get LCA can do it as well if not better.

That's why the so called PSU lobby has made up it's mind not for any other reason.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 07:57

Cosmo_R wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Near completely locally sourced F-16 by year seven? So apart from the engine and the AESA radar, everything else will be locally sourced by the seventh year?


Why don't you ask them? It's in the public domain.

I don't need to, because they just contradicted themselves by asking for assurances that they want total control of their properity technology. So that includes the sensors, radars, engine, weapons...basically all the meat & potatoes. So locally sourced will be the rest...of which we already have enough experience in. This locally sourced F-Solah by year seven is a BS argument, but new tactic to spin it and you know it :)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 08:19

Cosmo_R wrote:There seems to be a massive misconception among the so-called 'indigenous PSU lobby ' that the SE is going to come at the expense of LCA/AMCA/HAL etc. Just look at what has happened in the past. The competition for financial resources has come from populist schemes. The game has been to drag out negotiation (anyone remember the MMRCA?) and to return defense allocation back to MoD and use them to fund populist job schemes to win votes.

The 'import lobby' now led by Narendra Modi, wants to use defense monies to fund populist urban job schemes. The 'indigenous PSU lobby' has a long list of questions regarding MII, no answers but their minds are already made up.

Clearly shows you have not been following the Tejas dhaaga which illustrates so clearly - from Dileep - that delays in the LCA program has indeed come because of the SE deal. Keep spinning that yarn.

This is like your earlier claim that SE deal is meant to get the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy, which was disproven. Then you switched to the benefit of exporting F-16s to other countries which is also gone down the tubes because they do not want to be held liable for defects in products manufactured in collaboration with local partners. They you switched to job creation which is also disproven because they would rather partner with HAL than collborate with a private firm, because HAL is the only one experienced in screwdrivergiri. So actual "net" job creation will be minimal at best.

Now the latest tactic is locally sourced F-Solah by year seven which when year seven actually rolls along you will come up with another spin. :lol:

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 08:29

Plan to build fighter jets hits a hurdle
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/p ... 722460.ece

“Without real technology transfer, the whole idea of SP will fall apart. We will once again be doing assembling as has been happening for the last four decades,” one industry official said.

That is fine, because it is all about jobs u see :lol:

While SAAB has assured full transfer of technology, it would still require U.S. government clearance for transferring specific components.

I hope Saab wins, so the US denies the government clearances out of spite :)

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3870
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Manish_Sharma » 21 Sep 2017 08:38

Rakesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:There seems to be a massive misconception among the so-called '........


Clearly shows you have not been following the Tejas dhaaga which illustrates so clearly - from Dileep - that delays in the LCA program has indeed come because of the SE deal. Keep spinning that yarn.

1. This is like your earlier claim that SE deal is meant to get the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy, which was disproven.

2. Then you switched to the benefit of exporting F-16s to other countries which is also gone down the tubes because they do not want to be held liable for defects in products manufactured in collaboration with local partners.

3. Then you switched to job creation which is also disproven because they would rather partner with HAL than collborate with a private firm, because HAL is the only one experienced in screwdrivergiri. So actual "net" job creation will be minimal at best.

4. Now the latest tactic is locally sourced F-Solah by year seven which when year seven actually rolls along you will come up with another spin. :lol:


Apologies Rakesh Saar , just wanted to put numbers on all the excuses of US supporters you have exposed, for better readability.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5883
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2017 09:43

There are no two ways about it.

1. Each imported single engined fighter means one lesser LCA.
2. Every imported fighter creates less Indian jobs than every LCA because LCA has much more desi components today, and will have much more desi components in the future. In the next five years, its radar and its BVR will be desi. So will every kind of strike munitions.
3. Every imported fighter erodes our capability to design future aircrafts in large numbers
4. Every imported fighter is more expensive
5. Every imported fighter is an impediment in growing our desi ecosystem
6. Every imported fighter is lesser autonomy on our own weapons

And I don't care for a DPSU. Ask Tata to build Tejas. I would be most happy about it too.

Bagal wale Sharma ji ka beta is always better. Doesn't mean you throw out your own son and adopt him.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 21 Sep 2017 10:06

Ind.V.true.However,the tragedy is that tx. to past govts. apathy and neglect of def. indeginisation issues compounded by babu machinations,we are unable to rely on desi R&D to deliver key aerospace tech like engines (the core component),AESA radars,etc. Even the LCA is a masala of desi and firang components. There is no quick solution.

Nevertheless,the LCA has crossed the ridge and therefore nothing should stop the acceleration of the programme by setting up 2 or even 3 prod. lines to get the MK-1,1-A and MK-2 out as fast as they can into series production. But how HAL/pve. entities will produce enough delivered on time for the sev. hundreds of MIG-21s and MIG-27s retiring is anyone's guess,therefore the demand for an SE fighter.The numbers remaining for replacement and increasing sqd. strength has to be through acquisition of extra aircraft and their variants from abroad,best if more numbers of those in servcie are procured. Extra armoured jags/Jag upgrades will help replace the MIG-27 GA requirement. This still leaves the req. for the FGFA and future AMCA. Both these programmes must be synced with max leverage from the FGFA into the AMCA.

Now that the US has shown us its true colours,we have little alternative but to press ahead for the Gripen.SAAB will have to guarantee/prove that it is immune to US machinations/sabotage of the programme.If it can't manage that to the GOI's satisfaction ,then it will be back to Mother Russia and the MIG-35!

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5883
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2017 10:15

Philip sahab, how is Mig-35 not an imported aircraft?

About how great Mother Russia's latest and greatest are. This is what happened two days back. Apparently wrong lock.


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19933
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Austin » 21 Sep 2017 10:44

Indranil wrote:There are no two ways about it.

1. Each imported single engined fighter means one lesser LCA.
2. Every imported fighter creates less Indian jobs than every LCA because LCA has much more desi components today, and will have much more desi components in the future. In the next five years, its radar and its BVR will be desi. So will every kind of strike munitions.
3. Every imported fighter erodes our capability to design future aircrafts in large numbers
4. Every imported fighter is more expensive
5. Every imported fighter is an impediment in growing our desi ecosystem
6. Every imported fighter is lesser autonomy on our own weapons

And I don't care for a DPSU. Ask Tata to build Tejas. I would be most happy about it too.

Bagal wale Sharma ji ka beta is always better. Doesn't mean you throw out your own son and adopt him.


Every Word is The Truth and Worth in Gold !

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 21 Sep 2017 11:08

If we pressed any number of red buttons today on the desks of the high and mighty of the def. establishment,we won't get anymore LCAs than HAL is capable of delivering,a paltry 6 or there about/yr! Even if backsides of the project heads are burnt alive ,you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse. A completely new army of brooms is reqd. to cleanse the stables of HAL.ADA,etc.,and impose a new mantra (BMos mantra as Dr.Pillai has advocated for achieving results) for the LCA programme to achieve its objectives at the greatest speed possible.Setting up extra prod. lines,with the pvt. sector in tow,etc.,etc. has to be done but will take time and not plug the growing gap in numbers and sqds. available to the IAF,which has sunk to its lowest levels ever.Even if prod. today is doubled,it means barely 12+ aircraft/yr.That means at least 4-5 yrs. before HAL delivers on its first batch of 40+ MK-1s.In that time over 200+ MIG-21/27s would've retd. and even the 120+ MIG-21-Bisons will be wanting to end up in the museums!

We currently have only 3 programmes in hand apart from the LCA.MKI production will end in a few yrs. time (upgrades of 200+ MKIs will not increase numbers) Jag upgrades and M2K upgrades the other two.I think that the entire MIG-29 upgrades have been completed. So what choice does the IAF have to stem the rot? Unless more aircraft of types already in service are acquired,which can be made,assembled here,it will be in dire straits should another crisis like Doklam erupt into conflict. Such a policy will be the easiest and most cost-effective to achieve as it would not impose on extra infrastructure,trg. and support facilities. The MIG-35 is a vastly upgraded variant of the 29 and can be manufactured here too.There would be some degree of commonality between the two aircraft and pilot trg. easier becos its an improved version of the legacy/upgraded MIGs.But even this policy will still fall short of the IAF's approved 45 sqd. req.

If the IAF have to meet their approved 45 sqds.when actually 60 is required now according to analysts ,the 45 sqd. req. made decades ago,,there is no alternative to acquiring a foreign fighter/s to supplement local production. Let's be realistic.Even if a magic wand cures HAL's LCA ailment,and production greatly improved to say 24+/yr,a yawning gap still remains. It would've taken HAL a decade to have replaced all the MIG-21s and MIG-27s with LCA variants.With the Rafale costing so much,forget about more Raffys.Simply unaffordable.We have to look for more realistic solutions also keeping in mind the FGFA/stealth req. to counter China's advanced stealthy fighter programme.

The idea of the SE fighter was clearly a cost-effective solution in place of unaffordable Rafales,low LCA production and the opportunity to acquire a complete brand new aircraft prod. infrastructure which could be used for our future programmes. If the Yanquis aren't prepared to play ball then SAAB must offer a cast-iron guarantee for its bird. I can just imagine some babus intent on scuttling this plan rubbing their hands in glee shouting,"how can we OK a single-vendor product?" :mrgreen:

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5883
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2017 11:38

Philip wrote:If we pressed any number of red buttons today on the desks of the high and mighty of the def. establishment,we won't get anymore LCAs than HAL is capable of delivering,a paltry 6 or there about/yr! Even if backsides of the project heads are burnt alive ,you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse.

If I pressed any number of buttons on your desk, will your opinion change?

I will tell you some facts now. I will leave it to you to believe it or not.
1. HAL is supposed to ramp up to a production capacity of 16 per year. The 6 per year production rate of this year, was not decided this year. It was decided 4 years back. 2 in the first calendar year (2016), 6 in the next year (in 2017), 10 in the next year (in 2018) and 16 in the next year (in 2019).

2. And it is not just HAL. Any company in the world would have executed an order of 40 aircraft exactly this way. Let me give you examples:
a. What was the production rate of Rafale till they got export orders: 8 per year. Why?
b. What is the production rate of Eurofighters now?
c. What you have heard how the MII line will also ramp up. Why?
d. LM or Mig or SAAB won't even shift their existing lines to India for an order of less than 100, Why?
e. LM has said that they can reach a production rate of 30 aircraft per year from its fourth year. Does anyone want to bet any amount of money that they will never attain that rate is the order is just 100?

3. Even if you give twice the money, I can't increase the production rate overnight. It will take me a close to 12-15 months to get some of the parts if I order them tonight. Even, if I order in bulk. Even, if I pay premium price.
a. This is why Rafales ordered in 2015 start arriving in 2018 even after special govt. pressure
b. This is why if you ordered Migs today, they will arrive 3 years later. And if they flying off a ship, it will have flight critical parts falling off the plane midflight.

It is easiest for us to blame the nameless babu and a hapless DPSU. In this case, currently the buck is currently stopped at GoI and IAF.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3628
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby deejay » 21 Sep 2017 12:20

Indranil wrote:...

Bagal wale Sharma ji ka beta is always better. Doesn't mean you throw out your own son and adopt him.


Well said Indranil. I propose we rename this thread "Bagal wale Sharma ji ka Single Engine fighter Beta" :mrgreen:

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17855
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 21 Sep 2017 13:05

Ind.,yes,your facts are correct,but how long has the LCA programme taken? 3-4 decades! Just go back to the press reports,GOI /MOD decisions of the last decade alone and see how many times deadlines have slipped,BS about dev.,production,etc. been mouthed by Def. Mins.,DPSU/DRDO bosses,iAF brass,etc.If a former VChief who was selected by 4 committees,including the last by the then PM,been made Dir-Gen, of the ADA over a decade ago,a v.distinguished aviator,headed upgrades. for one type,ASTE head,first Indian to fly the MIG-25,etc.,a man who told APJAK to his face that the entire prog. at that stage was a "fraud upon the nation" (when APJ said in 2003 that by 2013 we would have 200 LCAs in service!) perhaps we would have a few sqds. in the air by now.He never lobbied for the post but said that if both the IAF and DRDO were unanimously for it he would agree to it.But babudom and the DPSUs were determined to prevent him from taking over with "hire and fire" powers that a Dir-Gen. would have.Instead mere project directors were put in place,relatively toothless. They wanted their incompetence to continue ,no responsibility for failure or delays,and an endless flow of budgetary allotments.

Yes,ultimately the GOI is the principal stakeholder and the 10 yrs. of UPA abdication of responsibility must weigh principally upon Snake-Oil Singh and AKA's shoulders. However,3 yrs. have passed since the NDA-2 arrived and time is running out of their first term. One has to take stock of what has been achieved (LCA) during their term thus far.Have they too succumbed to babudom pushing for the SE prog. while slowing down the LCA?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 21 Sep 2017 13:42

Philip wrote:If we pressed any number of red buttons today on the desks of the high and mighty of the def. establishment,we won't get anymore LCAs than HAL is capable of delivering,a paltry 6 or there about/yr! Even if backsides of the project heads are burnt alive ,you can't turn a donkey into a racehorse.


Philip saar, if I could put it in any more humble way, I would have. But if you start a post with this kind of statements, it really turns off readers from reading whatever follows next. How many times on BRF its shown as a fact that HAL is on schedule as per the decided plan as far as the first 20 SPs are concerned..? A few times to you directly. And how many times other projects have been compared with LCA for timelines and shown that LCA is not that awfully lagging project after all, given steep objectives, ab initio development, trickle funding and changing requirements. Then why keep saying the same thing again and again..? After a while it becomes pointless tirade rather than criticism or analysis. There are 100s of wrong things about LCA project or HAL. Pick anything you like. Why hanker after factually wrong things..?

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 21 Sep 2017 13:45

Anyone remember anymore the offer that GOI gave to private companies for manufacturing 250 LCA MK2 jets with 12B $$ fund infusion back in 2015...?? Was floated to all aspiring big biz houses. What happened to that exactly..?? Why was it quietly buried...??

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 21 Sep 2017 14:25

Jay S, this member is the only member on my ignore list and was on my ignore list even before the server crashed.

It is really to preserve my sanity. I prefer if members don't quote him. That way I will never have to read his stupid Russia pumping posts. While running down Indian accomplishments however small they may be.

LCA is not a small accomplishment and it needs to grow. After all this hard work and time spent on it. It makes no sense for us to squander it in favor of some half baked imported fighter which will only subsidise the MIC of its home country and not really help india in any meaningful way.

So why import a fighter. Invest in enhancing production capabilities of LCA and I am reasonably sure that in 3 years from now HAL can churn out 60 aircraft per year. If a decision is made of support the line. With HAL acting as system intigeretor. The bulk of components being produced by tier 1 and 2 subcontractors.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12503
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Sep 2017 14:47

Read on twitter: "tejas banao desh bachao"
Thats all

nash
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 21 Sep 2017 15:21

JayS wrote:Anyone remember anymore the offer that GOI gave to private companies for manufacturing 250 LCA MK2 jets with 12B $$ fund infusion back in 2015...?? Was floated to all aspiring big biz houses. What happened to that exactly..?? Why was it quietly buried...??


Yes i remember, it was MP who come up with this idea but later he only proposes this SE-MII, not sure why. :-?

Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7528
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 21 Sep 2017 15:35

May be for him single engine mii was tejas and people reached their own conclusions regarding solah and the grippen.

But I am deeply disappointed at the non response to the tejas production by pvt sector.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 21 Sep 2017 16:52

nash wrote:
JayS wrote:Anyone remember anymore the offer that GOI gave to private companies for manufacturing 250 LCA MK2 jets with 12B $$ fund infusion back in 2015...?? Was floated to all aspiring big biz houses. What happened to that exactly..?? Why was it quietly buried...??


Yes i remember, it was MP who come up with this idea but later he only proposes this SE-MII, not sure why. :-?


IMO SE MII is not MP's baby as such. It looks more like a compromise between GOI (read PMO) and IAF for MMRCA. Instead of 126 rafales, IAF got 36 rafale and was promised 120 of another western fighter. I think MP only wanted SE MII to be done with SP model with substantial amount of work and tech coming with it. To me the decision was taken at PMO level and he was left to do the needful in best possible manner. SE classification is only to keep MiG, Rafale, EF our of competition and making it another MMRCA. HE has consistently mentioned separate Twin jet under MII as well. Whether its the IN requirement he was referring to or separate IAF requirement, we don't know. I have no chaiwala info so this is based on public domain reports only.

I am very much interested to know what happened to that 12B $ 250 LCA mk2 proposal.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 691
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 21 Sep 2017 17:08

A Babu from MoD may know about the proposal. I agree with Pratyush, MP might want to create SE-MII for LCA because in those days after Rafale deal MP was full on LCA as the alternative to fill the numbers and that 12 billion $ may be for this only but it has drifted down to this drama.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3870
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: RENTING US FIGHTERS VS TEJAS Thread

Postby Manish_Sharma » 21 Sep 2017 17:57

It's deja vu from Armour thread circa 2010 - 11.
When the fight used to be on lines of "no no t90 won't eat into Arjun's share. Despite Army buying 2000 t90, there will be place for Arjun's to replace t55 and later t72 tanks. Now after 8 years we know where things stand. Those supporting t90 were Natasha lobby.

Now after 8 years we all know where things stand wet Arjun orders.

In Tejas' case Hillary lobby enters and gives same arguments that f16 won't eat into Tejas numbers.

1. 5 years back there was a news that LM is proposing to transfer f16 line at in believable price. Although I can't find the news item but price indicated was 16 million dollars per plane. And now Kartik has exposed the price to be 146 million per plane.

2. While Dileep ji has posted how Tejas isn't getting enough funds by current so called nationalist govt. While fatty Maharashtra CM sits in gripped cockpit hoping to manufacture it in Maharashtra, but expressed no such desire for Tejas up to now. Ack thoo! !

3. Another hillary lover was suggesting Rafale to be too expensive at 200 million but is quite on 146 million f16. Same hillary lover was announcing we need to just lease Rafale till 2036 as after that it will be too obsolete. But supports unobsoletable f16 in if till 2065. Same guy calls Tejas is just a tech demonstrator no need to procure in large numbers.

4. Our anti-national media is slowly slowly making f16 without any ToT a more digestible proposition.

5. Suddenly one day Navy announcing that it needs 57 AFF (Any Foreign Fighter), and LCA is totally unwanted. Sooooo sudden, BK's CT theories aside daal mein kuchh to kalaa hai !

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4151
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2017 17:59

Indranil wrote:And I don't care for a DPSU. Ask Tata to build Tejas. I would be most happy about it too.

Well said once again! I say get Tata and Adani to both open Tejas lines. They are bidding for phoren aircraft production. Give them both a 100 aircraft order for the Tejas. HAL has gone on record stating that they have no orders post Rambha production.

Also get Birla, Godrej, Bajaj, MRF Tyres, Sheetal Fashion and Raymond Group to all pitch in. The latter two can design & make the uniforms for the folks that Tata and Adani are going to hire...oh wait, they are HAL employees onlee :mrgreen:

All about job creation and getting the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2720
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 21 Sep 2017 19:21

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:And I don't care for a DPSU. Ask Tata to build Tejas. I would be most happy about it too.

Well said once again! I say get Tata and Adani to both open Tejas lines. They are bidding for phoren aircraft production. Give them both a 100 aircraft order for the Tejas. HAL has gone on record stating that they have no orders post Rambha production.

Also get Birla, Godrej, Bajaj, MRF Tyres, Sheetal Fashion and Raymond Group to all pitch in. The latter two can design & make the uniforms for the folks that Tata and Adani are going to hire...oh wait, they are HAL employees onlee :mrgreen:

All about job creation and getting the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:


I pulled out that 12B 250 LCA Mk2 offer's reference for this only. It seems it was already pitched, what is being suggested in your post. But it went no where. Why..??

IR, you have any chaiwalla info..?

chola
BRFite
Posts: 1739
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chola » 21 Sep 2017 20:45

JayS wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Well said once again! I say get Tata and Adani to both open Tejas lines. They are bidding for phoren aircraft production. Give them both a 100 aircraft order for the Tejas. HAL has gone on record stating that they have no orders post Rambha production.

Also get Birla, Godrej, Bajaj, MRF Tyres, Sheetal Fashion and Raymond Group to all pitch in. The latter two can design & make the uniforms for the folks that Tata and Adani are going to hire...oh wait, they are HAL employees onlee :mrgreen:

All about job creation and getting the ball rolling in other sectors of the economy :lol:


I pulled out that 12B 250 LCA Mk2 offer's reference for this only. It seems it was already pitched, what is being suggested in your post. But it went no where. Why..??

IR, you have any chaiwalla info..?



I really do wonder why. Why would they angle for a phoren tie-up but not take part in a domestic program run by HAL? Is the problem HAL and ths private sector not wanting to work with them or because there is more profit to be made in a firangi venture?

To be sure I am highly disappointed in our firms if this rejection is true.

Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12503
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Lalmohan » 21 Sep 2017 21:06

Maybe phoren firms have offered to help set up multi tier supply chains and future global manufacturing hubs...?

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1400
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srin » 21 Sep 2017 22:47

Funny, much of the same arguments on this thread were the same made on the MMRCA thread, and the saga still continues. The solution is still the same.
If we are only building 4/4.5G fighters, the easiest to augment is: order more Sukhois (2sq per year), more LCAs (2sq per year).
Focus more on getting better missiles and radars and other sensors and better engines.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3519
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Kartik » 21 Sep 2017 23:51

Indranil wrote:If I pressed any number of buttons on your desk, will your opinion change?

I will tell you some facts now. I will leave it to you to believe it or not.
1. HAL is supposed to ramp up to a production capacity of 16 per year. The 6 per year production rate of this year, was not decided this year. It was decided 4 years back. 2 in the first calendar year (2016), 6 in the next year (in 2017), 10 in the next year (in 2018) and 16 in the next year (in 2019).

2. And it is not just HAL. Any company in the world would have executed an order of 40 aircraft exactly this way. Let me give you examples:
a. What was the production rate of Rafale till they got export orders: 8 per year. Why?
b. What is the production rate of Eurofighters now?
c. What you have heard how the MII line will also ramp up. Why?
d. LM or Mig or SAAB won't even shift their existing lines to India for an order of less than 100, Why?
e. LM has said that they can reach a production rate of 30 aircraft per year from its fourth year. Does anyone want to bet any amount of money that they will never attain that rate is the order is just 100?

3. Even if you give twice the money, I can't increase the production rate overnight. It will take me a close to 12-15 months to get some of the parts if I order them tonight. Even, if I order in bulk. Even, if I pay premium price.
a. This is why Rafales ordered in 2015 start arriving in 2018 even after special govt. pressure
b. This is why if you ordered Migs today, they will arrive 3 years later. And if they flying off a ship, it will have flight critical parts falling off the plane midflight.

It is easiest for us to blame the nameless babu and a hapless DPSU. In this case, currently the buck is currently stopped at GoI and IAF.


I'm afraid your reasoning, which is perfectly logical, is going to fall on a set of deaf ears. He won't understand and you'll continue to see snide remarks embedded in his posts. Behaviour honed over years won't change because if he had been following this thread, or any thread related to fighters, he'd know that production scales up and doesn't reach peak production levels overnight. You could just quote the example of MiG-29Ks delivered to the IN, but its all a waste of time and energy, IMO. Best to ignore his rants.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 48145
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ramana » 22 Sep 2017 00:16

Indranil wrote:The pro-import lobby should make up their mind on what they think will be the true gain:

1. When ToT is questioned, they move to job creation,
2. When job creation is questioned, they move to building up ab-initio companies,
3. When ab-initio companies are questioned, they move to ToT.

Bhai, first make up your mind, before you start to argue!



4. Just get the money.

its not about any of the three things you mention.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: shobhits89, srin and 57 guests