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'Make in India' Single engined fighter

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2017 07:55

India's military-industrial complexities
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/10/i ... ities.html

Role of OEMs

The selection of SPs only decides which Indian firm will lead the manufacture of a particular defence platform. Alongside that, a separate competitive selection process is undertaken to shortlist vendors who make weaponry that meets the military’s “minimum qualification criteria”. The qualified SPs are then required to submit sale-cum-manufacturing proposals based on technology supplied by these OEMs.

Some prospective OEMs, however, have tired of waiting for the defence ministry to complete its cumbersome processes. Both the putative OEMs in the Indian Air Force’s forthcoming procurement of single-engine fighters – Saab of Sweden and US giant, Lockheed Martin – have gone ahead and formed partnerships with the Adani Group and Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) respectively, even though these companies have not been chosen as SPs. “Does this mean the foreign vendors and Indian SP aspirants are pre-empting the MoD’s processes? Is the MoD going to allow these pressure tactics?” wonders a public sector chief executive.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2017 08:00

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915259005995380736 --> There are some fools who are suggesting that India should 'appease' Trump by importing more weapons to reduce the trade deficit.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915259886086234112 --> Understand this, China would be more than happy to have India in the US camp. That way it will negotiate directly with Washington.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915260040495243264 --> An unfettered India is much more of a problem for China, which will not be able to depend on America to calibrate our behaviour.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915546398371733505 --> What we can't afford to have for much longer is an imported air force. More than anything else.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/915546943635337216 --> Which is why the Tejas build program must exceed 300 units at the least. And India must get serious about turbofan development.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2017 08:21

Enhancing India-US Defence Ties: Easier Said Than Done
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017100410 ... ense-ties/

“Sitharaman would know that the US doesn’t 'co-develop' weapons or transfer military technology developed at enormous cost. It prefers to sell weapons and keep the end-users on a tight leash,” M.K. Bhadrakumar, a former career diplomat, wrote in an op-ed article in The Tribune. Bhadrakumar opines that “US firms want to retain control over technology” and avoid “liability” when jointly producing equipment with Indian counterparts, therefore “‘Make in India’ is fast becoming a nuisance.”

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby JayS » 05 Oct 2017 14:03

Lots of psy-ops...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Gaur » 05 Oct 2017 22:51

IAF to start process to acquire single engine jets this month

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/iaf-to-start-process-to-acquire-single-engine-jets-this-month/articleshow/60958830.cms

Chief of Air Staff B S Dhanoa said having a new fleet of single engine jets was a "priority" for the IAF and the request for information (RFI) for it is likely to be issued "very soon".

Another top official of the IAF told that the RFI, kick starting the acquisition process, will be issued this month.



Asked about the fifth-generation fighter aircraft project (FGFA) with Russia, Dhanoa said a high-level committee has submitted its report to defence ministry which will take a call on it.

"The case is with the ministry of defence. The preliminary design phase has been completed. The Varthaman committee has submitted its report which is classified and we have also given our response," Dhanoa said.



Answering a question, the Air Chief said that the IAF will consider procuring Predator unmanned combat aerial vehicle in case it is offered by the US.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Indranil » 05 Oct 2017 23:55

Chief of Air Staff B S Dhanoa said having a new fleet of single engine jets was a "priority" for the IAF and the request for information (RFI) for it is likely to be issued "very soon".

Another top official of the IAF told that the RFI, kick starting the acquisition process, will be issued this month.

With the highest of respect to the IAF, I do want to ask what happened to the priority of getting twin medium engined jets that we had since 2001?

I have been putting off writing columns. Perhaps, it is time.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2017 00:38

Indranil wrote:With the highest of respect to the IAF, I do want to ask what happened to the priority of getting twin medium engined jets that we had since 2001?

I have been putting off writing columns. Perhaps, it is time.

Thank you for mentioning the part on respect. The import lobby will otherwise accuse us of slandering the IAF and her Chief.

2001 was when the single engine Mirage 2000 was to be acquired by the IAF and then some wise guru in the MoD decided against it and in favour of multi-vendor situation. To think that had that deal gone through, we would be flying approximately 10 squadrons of M2K-5s now.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2017 00:51

In addition to the article that Gaur posted, here are some other nuggets of info....warning, do not click on link...your screen WILL freeze.

India can handle a simultaneous two-front war, says IAF chief
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 959893.cms

India can handle a simultaneous two-front war if push comes to shove despite depleted air combat power due to huge delays in induction of new fighters, said the IAF chief on Thursday, in the backdrop of Pakistan keeping the western front on the boil and China not reducing force-levels on the eastern one after the troop disengagement from the Doklam stand-off.

Tackling Pakistan alone is not a problem at all, asserted Air Chief Marshal B S Dhanoa. Asked about Pakistan often brandishing its tactical nuclear weapons as an effective counter to India's conventional military superiority and the "Cold Start" strategy, he said "IAF has the capability to locate, fix and strike targets across the border." The IAF chief also pointed to India's stated nuclear doctrine that clearly holds that an adversary's first strike -- by a strategic or even a smaller tactical nuclear weapon -- will invite massive retaliatory strikes designed to inflict unacceptable damage. IAF also has "adequate capability" to handle China's numerically-superior air force. "It is not what they have but what they can project against us...what they can bring to Tibet," said Dhanoa, speaking in the run-up to the IAF Day on October 8.

In the event of a conflict, China can deploy over 20 fighter squadrons from its eight airbases in Tibet and other airfields to their north, but the weapon and fuel-carrying capacity of their jets will be quite limited due to the high-altitude and rarefied air there. Fully-loaded Indian Sukhoi-30MKIs, taking off from bases like Tezpur, Chabua and Hasimara, in turn, can strike high-value targets deep inside China. The IAF chief said China had not reduced its military forces in the Chumbi Valley region, at the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet tri-junction, after the rival troops disengaged from the eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation at Doklam on August 28. "But I expect them to withdraw as their exercises end and winter approaches," he said, adding that "a peaceful and mature" resolution would be in the interest of the two major countries.

The IAF, of course, continues to make do with just 33 fighter squadrons despite the collusive threat from China and Pakistan. "Yes, we need a strength of 42 squadrons to carry out full-spectrum operations in a two-front scenario. But it does not mean we are not capable of fighting a two-front (war) as we speak. We have a Plan B in place," said Dhanoa. "The possibility of a two-front war in the current geopolitical situation is low....But intentions (of enemies) can change overnight," he said, adding that IAF will achieve its authorized strength of 42 fighter squadrons only by 2032.

Consequently, IAF is strongly pitching for acquiring another 36 Rafale fighters after it gets the first 36 jets under the mega Rs 59,000 crore contract (7.87 billion Euro) inked with France in September last year, as was first reported by TOI. But the IAF's immediate plan is to kick off the process for setting up a single-engine fighter production facility under the defence ministry's "strategic partnership" policy as part of the "Make in India" thrust of the Modi government. "We are going for this as a top priority to make up numbers," said Dhanoa.

The RFI (request for Information) for the project, under which 16 fighters will be directly imported while another 98 will be manufactured in India through a tie-up between a foreign aviation major and an Indian partner, will be issued within the next three to four weeks. The American F-16 (Lockheed Martin) and the Swedish Gripen-E (Saab) are in the fray for this project, which will

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 06 Oct 2017 02:29

^^^
Budget seems to be infinite ;)

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2017 05:34

Another 36 Rafales for $200M each! Does the good ACM have a magic money tree growing at AHQ? For that cos 4 MIG-35s can be comfortably acquired,with bargaining possibly even 5! The money saved can go into the FGFA prog. How will a Rafale fare against a Chin J-20 stealth bird? An FGFA was estimated officially as around $100M again half a Rafale's cost.

The IAF appears to be clueless about fiscal matters and fondly believe that in this age of austerity we will jump to sal the deal! The attention of the govt. and Opp. are now upon the next election.Simultaneous election reform may see one next autumn.No chance of any major Def.
deal getting sealed unless
NS has been given a mandate and date from the PMO.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2017 05:40

Philip, please. An additional 36 Rafales are not going to cost $200 million each. You are factoring everything into the price (simulator, spares, weapons, tools, etc) from the first contract. For the that matter....neither will a repeat order of F-Solahs or Gripen Es cost the same from the first batch. And same will be true of FGFA or any other plane acquired.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2017 05:53

Ok give us the revised fig.I saw a recent official statement about a slight reduction from the "original" cost recently.Let Dassault make an offer.After all it is for the same birds with same specs.Let's see how dramatically costs will come down. This is the simplest method to augment numbers by ordering more aircraft of those in service.Let the MOD draw up a table of options for the CCS to take a decision.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 06 Oct 2017 06:01

The IAF pushes for 36 additional Rafale fighters
http://quwa.org/2017/08/28/indian-air-f ... -fighters/

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is eager to acquire an additional 36 Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters to join its 36 fighters already on order (from the $8.8 billion U.S. deal signed in September 2016). The Times of India reports, citing Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources, that a follow-on Rafale order would cost 60% of the initial package’s value, which also includes weapon systems, India-specific customizations and a five-year support package guaranteeing an operational rate of 75%.

60% of $8.8 Billion is $5.28 Billion. That works out to $146 million a plane. The first contract costs ~$245 million a plane. Do the math. That is like nearly ~$100 million cheaper! The F-16 and Gripen E are not going to be significantly cheaper than ~$150 million/bird after you factor in the factory, the jigs, the tools, spares, weapons, etc. The Bahrain deal puts each F-16V (with spares, simulators, weapons, etc) at around the $145 million mark. Since the first Rafale contract has been signed, a follow on 36 planes are worth every penny. Both bases (Hasmira and Ambala) are earmarked for 36 Rafales each anyway.

And do not bring FGFA into the mix yet. Let her finish trials and enter service and then we can talk.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 06 Oct 2017 07:38

^^^
Rakesh wrote:The IAF pushes for 36 additional Rafale fighters
http://quwa.org/2017/08/28/indian-air-f ... -fighters/

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is eager to acquire an additional 36 Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters to join its 36 fighters already on order (from the $8.8 billion U.S. deal signed in September 2016). The Times of India reports, citing Ministry of Defence (MoD) sources, that a follow-on Rafale order would cost 60% of the initial package’s value, which also includes weapon systems, India-specific customizations and a five-year support package guaranteeing an operational rate of 75%.

60% of $8.8 Billion is $5.28 Billion. That works out to $146 million a plane. The first contract costs ~$245 million a plane. Do the math. That is like nearly ~$100 million cheaper! The F-16 and Gripen E are not going to be significantly cheaper than ~$150 million/bird after you factor in the factory, the jigs, the tools, spares, weapons, etc. The Bahrain deal puts each F-16V (with spares, simulators, weapons, etc) at around the $145 million mark. Since the first Rafale contract has been signed, a follow on 36 planes are worth every penny. Both bases (Hasmira and Ambala) are earmarked for 36 Rafales each anyway.

...

It makes more sense to just spend that $10 billion and acquire additional 72 Rafales and be done with both the SE and MRCA requirements. Investment has already been done and it's better to expand on it. Get more capacity for in-country support and spare production in subsequent deals.

Put the "money" for SE import into the LCA Mk.1, Mk.1A and Mk.2. Spend $20 billion over two decades on the LCA.

Questions remain on how much "real" budget is available though? I think the budget available realistically over the next 10-years is around $10-15 billion for fighter acquisition. Something got to give. Can't have all of the above.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2017 11:16

Egypt signed a contract in April 2015 for 50 MiG -35s worth over $2 billion, and has made a down payment on this order. Egypt's MiG-35s will be equipped with high precision targeting pods.

http://en.yibada.com/articles/144482/20 ... -force.htm

Just an xcpt. to show how much a MIG-35 costs,around $40M when compared with the asinine costs of Rafales,etc. cash-strapped India in an eco down-turn would be committing a serious blunder ordering a second batch of Rafales. Instead,the LCA prog. ,being treated like the second-wife's child,languishes with little statements about pursuing all the LCA future options while talk is only of the SE prog.,which even if sealed within the next 6 months will take 4-5 yrs. to deliver! By that time the obsolete aircraft would soar in value as an antique,fit for museums!

Another aircraft,a MIG-23 trainer crashed yesterday,both pilots ejected safely.There was one media report saying that by 2022,all 83 LCAs would be ready.How is it possible when we're still producing this bird at the rate of just 6/yr and there's no sight of a second production line on any horizon?
A barrage of conflicting reports is only adding to the confusion. But what can clearly be seen is that the SE acquisition is the top priority for the IAF,it just wants more firang birds (Rafales and SE), and cares little about the LCA,all the pious statements being made wanting it,etc.,are meant for public consumption well knowing the truth of the matter,capability of HAL to deliver the goods and lacklustre attitude of the GOI in supporting the programme to the hilt as top priority.

The former VChief was spot on,when he said (to APJAK) that the programme (being neglected) was a "fraud upon the nation".Let's see by 2019/2020 how much has changed with it,for better or worse.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Oct 2017 11:22

This is BS, get 36 more Rafale, ask the french to set up a Jet engine production in India and scrap the Single engine fighter. Use this domestic engine for LCA, LCA Navy, AMCA.

Man this import lobby is strong.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 07 Oct 2017 15:06

http://www.defencenews.in/article/IAF-b ... eet-383975
IAF begins process to add 114 Fighter Jets to its fleet
Saturday, October 07, 2017
By: DNA India

The Indian Air Force has begun hunt for 114 fighter jets to enhance its operational capabilities and add firepower to its depleting fleet. Air Forces said a formal Request for Information (RFI) will be issued in the next 2-3 weeks to begin the process of acquisition.

This will be done under the Strategic Partnership Model of the Narendra Modi government that aims at a synergy between foreign and Indian manufacturers to boost indigenisation in defence manufacture.

"Of the 114 fighter jets, 16 will be flown from the country of origin, and the rest will be manufactured in Indian production lines set up here," an Air Force officer said.

Speaking the annual press conference, Air Chief Birender Singh Dhanoa on Thursday said the full strength of 42 squadrons will be in place only by 2032. He added that despite the possibility of a two-front war with China and Pakistan in the current geopolitical scenario was low, the intention of the enemy can change overnight and one needs to be prepared for that.

"We need the strength of 42 squadrons for a two-front scenario. But we have a plan B to deal with any satiation. We are prepared to fight in a short notice," he said.

A squadron has 18-20 aircraft. Currently there are 30-32 squadrons, with many not having full strength. By 2019, five extra squadrons are expected to be part of the fleet, but with some being withdrawn the number will remain around 33 for some time, sources said.

While 36 Rafale and Sukhoi jets will be part of the fleet by 2019, another 83 Light Combat Aircraft are expected to be inducted by 2020. :mrgreen:

Swedish company Saab and Adani group recently announced a collaboration plan for defence manufacturing keeping in mind the strategic partnership model focussing on the design, development and production of single engine Grippen fighter jet aiming to set up production hubs in India.

They will competing with US Major Lockheed Martin who have struck a partnership with Tata Group to win the bid for single engine fighter jets and set up production line for the F-16 in India. The RFI for 114 single engine fighter jets will close the gap of the desired requirement of at least 200 such jets.

INDIGENISATION ::

Of the 114 fighter jets to be introduced to the Indian Air Force squadron, 11 will be flown in from other countries and rest will be indigenously manufactured in Indian production lines.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby nash » 07 Oct 2017 15:56

New thing is the number-114 and around 11-16, about 10-15% of order as per SP model in DPP, will be from OEM.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby chetak » 07 Oct 2017 16:11

Rakesh wrote:
Indranil wrote:With the highest of respect to the IAF, I do want to ask what happened to the priority of getting twin medium engined jets that we had since 2001?

I have been putting off writing columns. Perhaps, it is time.

Thank you for mentioning the part on respect. The import lobby will otherwise accuse us of slandering the IAF and her Chief.

2001 was when the single engine Mirage 2000 was to be acquired by the IAF and then some wise guru in the MoD decided against it and in favour of multi-vendor situation. To think that had that deal gone through, we would be flying approximately 10 squadrons of M2K-5s now.


in a multi vendor situation, the bidding war increases the fallout and this very fallout then goes on to up the chances of a vendor slanging match that results in a swollen kitty for interested parties.

everyone gets gifts in cash or kind, gift value varies as per the perceived importance of the person and his/her access to important/vital inputs and his status in the food chain.

that is why "multi vendor" is desirable because of more "willing" people are scrambling for the same elusive pie.

in almost all cases, the vendor is known even before the intent is expressed.

In a govt to govt deal, the seller govt rakes in the money because the vendor then pays them off to extract the maximum prices from the customer.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby negi » 07 Oct 2017 18:33

Having dealt with some Indian PSUs in enterprise software I can only imagine what military deal might look like ; there is a reason why almost every military deals needs a middleman there are lots of small companies many even shell accounts whose only objective is to serve as a liaison between the MOD procurement division and the actual OEM. Both OEM and likes of Ak Anthony would like to keep the mindu white while all the heavy lifting is done by these middlemen . Admiral Nanda's son used to run such an agency then cousin of another Admiral who was involved in Naval war room leak is one such example however these were highlighted as they were caught and then there are many other small chiller companies that supply spares for the Indian military all of them are run by middlemen . Anything that military uses drips in corruption , people who crib about bottle of water retailing at INR 50 at PVR have to see how Indian military procures logistics . There are companies whose very existence is dependent on supplying to the military their rates if mentioned here won't even sound believable.

Multi vendor tendering was introduced by MOD to pay lip service to anti corrupt practices , remember the IAF chopper scam was multi vendor until the bad apples in IAF colluded with the MOD and altered the requirements to suit an Italian player .

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 08 Oct 2017 06:36

IAF to issue RFI for Single Engine Combat Aircraft within October 2017
http://www.indiastrategic.in/2017/10/05 ... ober-2017/

Notably, Lockheed Martin has tied up on its own with Tata Advanced Systems Ltd (TASL) and so has Saab with the Adani Group. After either or both are selected on technical parameters in flight trials, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) will approve the winner on the basis of commercial terms and how much Transfer of Technology (ToT) in sophisticated equipment accrues to India. According to IAF Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R Nambiar, IAF expected the two companies to respond to the RFI in about three months, the flight trials should take about a year, the contract should be signed shortly thereafter, and the process should wrap up with deliveries of the first lot of flyaway aircraft in less than five years as of now. As the two companies have already tied up with their Indian partners, the process to set up the factory for the selected aircraft should begin soon after the winner is announced, and just as the winner completes the delivery of the flyaway aircraft, its production in India should also begin simultaneously.

- How is the MoD going to approve a winner on the basis of how much ToT in sophisticated equipment comes to India? What is the criteria that the MoD uses to determine what is sophisticated equipment? Who in the MoD writes up these asinine requirements? Neither company is going to provide zilch and why should they? LM has already flatly refused and Saab - despite all the hot air - can't transfer nothing without Uncle Sam's approval. This is MMRCA redux all over again :roll:

Let us breakdown the timeline based on the above article.

1] The IAF plans to issue the RFI this month itself. LM and Saab are expected to respond to the RFI within three months. Let us assume that both companies respond by Dec 31, 2017 for argument's sake since it is still early October.

2] Flight trials are expected to take another year. So that takes it to the end of 2018.

3] The MoD expects the contract to signed shortly thereafter - which means endless negotations - but let's say that takes only a year. So now that takes us to the end of 2019 when the contract will be signed. Fingers Crossed 8) And if the Congress Party wins the 2019 General Elections and AK Antony comes back, hehehehehe :P

4] The first of the flyaway aircraft are expected to join the IAF roughly five years from that date. So now the end of 2024 for the delivery of the first of 18 flyaway aircraft. Hopefully! :)

5] Assume it then takes 1.5 years to deliver 18 flyaway aircraft and now we are in mid 2026.

6] Mid 2026 is roughly the same time production will commence in the Indian factory as per the article above.

7] Now as per LM's own admission, scaling up production will take time. Saab is surprisingly silent on that issue. So let's say it takes 12 months to roll out the first plane from the factory. So now expect the first screwdrivergiri plane to arrive at mid 2027 :lol: What is really tragic is hundreds and thousands (maybe millions) of our fellow countrymen will be starving for jobs for another 10 years because after all assembling these planes is meant to boost other sectors of the economy. Perhaps we should invite the United Way (or some other charitable organisation) to feed, clothe and house all the people who will be unemployed till 2027.

8] From that date, the factory has FIVE years by Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa's own admission...that the IAF will reach a full strength of 42 squadrons. 2032 to be exact. And that claim is there in that above article also. So that means close to 20 aircraft per year to reach the magic number of 96 aircraft to be made in the factory. From two organizations - Tata or Adani - that has zero experience in screwdrivergiri, because that is what this will be.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2017 06:57

Can F-16s take off from ski-ramp carriers?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 08 Oct 2017 10:03

This is Turing into a nightmare of epic proportions. The more I am looking at it. The more I am convinced that this a scam of epic proportions the only answer is Tejas.

Unless the iaf bites the bullet and goes the whole hog and buys the f 35.

And please spare me the argument of strategic reliability of us a supplier. As LCA grippen both use us injuns. The f 16 is entirely American.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 08 Oct 2017 12:03

Admiral saab,

Don't know who these people involved are trying to fool ... if not themselves only. Any sane individual can see through this farcical but the powers that be continues to prod on obliviously :-?

How about increasing the LCA quantities and adding more production lines (private players JV w/HAL)? What is "Make in India"?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Oct 2017 18:36

Tejas is already selected? will increasing the numbers withing existing contracts take more time than the hallowed SEF competition and subsequent contract drafting? If yes then perhaps we need to stop both Tejas and AMCA right here and right now.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Pratyush » 08 Oct 2017 19:14

ArjunPandit wrote:Tejas is already selected? will increasing the numbers withing existing contracts take more time than the hallowed SEF competition and subsequent contract drafting? If yes then perhaps we need to stop both Tejas and AMCA right here and right now.


The follow on orders for tejas will be like the follow on orders for the MKi. So it will be like a smooth well oiled machine. No delays will be taking place in drafting the contract. Only the price escalation needs to be taken into consideration.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 08 Oct 2017 19:34

UlanBatori wrote:Can F-16s take off from ski-ramp carriers?

I betcha it can take off. But it won't land without breaking its ankles and ripping out its piles with tail hook

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 08 Oct 2017 19:36

Suppose we get 83 Tejas, 36 Rafale and 113 SE fighter - man what will the IAF look like then. 2 phront war anyone?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Oct 2017 21:01

unless F16 gives us a free pass to retake PoK there is nothing on this earth that this poor abdul can see in the deal for us indians

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby UlanBatori » 08 Oct 2017 21:31

shiv wrote:Suppose we get 83 Tejas, 36 Rafale and 113 SE fighter - man what will the IAF look like then. 2 phront war anyone?


IAF will have 166 Tejas pilots, 3 Rafale pilots, 100 SE fighter pilots, 17 ground techs qualified on Tejas sitting around twiddling their thumbs, 2000 Rafale techs desperately trying to figure out the Phrogistani Manuals on the 33 grounded Rafales, and 11,300 SE fighter ground support staff and 150,000 bureaucrats to fill out all the forms for the American SEs. Oh, plus the 500 staff in the Mess to serve the Chamapagne to the visiting Expeurtes de Frogistan.

If we could take POK and Uttar Dharamsala and KunniMangalam by filling out forms, we got it.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Oct 2017 21:38

UlanBatori wrote:If we could take POK and Uttar Dharamsala and KunniMangalam by filling out forms, we got it.

haha, before i stalked good 500+ of your posts i always wondered the source of creativity of south indian movies

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 08 Oct 2017 21:40

The IAF has already called it! The want the Gripen E and they want it so bad, that they used the SKAT team to make a Gripen E shape on the 85th anniversary of the Air Force Day. The IAF will not touch the F-Solah. It has "plague" written all over it.

It's a bird...it's a plane...it's the Gripen formation on Air Force Day
http://www.wionews.com/india-news/its-a ... -day-21131

Image

By Raghvendra Rao

There were a few red faces in the Indian Air Force on Sunday (October 8th) as the Surya Kiran aerobatics team, which performed several heart-stopping mid-air manoeuvres during the Air Force Day celebrations at the Hindon Air Base, flew what was called the "Gripen formation". The fact that Swedish aerospace firm Saab — which manufactures the Gripen fighter planes — is in the running to bag a major contract to provide 100 single-engine fighters to the Indian Air Force, and is locked in a direct contest with US defence firm Lockheed Martin — which is offering its latest F-16 figher jet to IAF — ensured that the "Gripen formation" flown by the Surya Kirans, and announced during the live commentary, could not go unnoticed.

The Surya Kirans flew several other formations as well —the Rafale formation, the Sukhoi 30 formation and the Tejas formation. But it was the Gripen formation that proved to be the head-turner with many left wondering whether the IAF had already zeroed in on the Swedish fighter as it's next single-engine fighter plane. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was asked this question minutes after the function to mark the 85th Anniversary of the Indian Air Force ended. The Air Chief consulted one of his fellow officers before replying and said, “No, it has got nothing to do with that. It is just an aircraft shape with an canard in the front. It can be Rafale, it can be Gripen, anybody with a canard in front...(even a) Sukhoi-30. They just called it Gripen. It means nothing. Nothing to do with Gripen.”

My Comment - GUESS WHAT DOES NOT HAVE A CANARD - F-Solah, Block 70 :lol:

The Indian Air Force is aiming to significantly upgrade its combat capabilities by inducting 100 single-engine fighters in its squadrons. A Request for Information (RFI) document—which essentially collects written information on the capabilities of various bidders—is likely to be issued soon. Both Lockheed Martin and Saab are offering the latest variants of their respective fighter planes—the F-16 Block 70 and Gripen E, respectively. Since these fighter planes have to be built by an Indian firm in collaboration with a foreign defence firm, Lockheed Martin has paired up with Tata Group and Saab has tied up with Adani Group to manufacture these planes.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Oct 2017 02:09

srai wrote:Admiral saab,

Don't know who these people involved are trying to fool ... if not themselves only. Any sane individual can see through this farcical but the powers that be continues to prod on obliviously :-?

How about increasing the LCA quantities and adding more production lines (private players JV w/HAL)? What is "Make in India"?

More LCA will be the logical and automatic result of this rather long winded process.. :D. The entire thing is setup for failure. financial negotiations in an election year, yeah we know how long that will take...

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Oct 2017 02:44

sometimes i think i should send a fake report to PMO/CAG/CBI for corruption in this deal to stall it, the same amount of money to have this SE fighter could be used much better elsewehre..

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2017 03:18

Said ad nauseam,fastest way to plug the falling numbers gap is ordering more of types already in service.Quite rightly the SE acquisition will take 4-5 yrs. to deliver.So the LCA,MKI,and MIG-29 are logically the types to be beefed up.The MIG-35 is a variant of the 29,is only around $40M around1/3rd the cost of a discounted Rafale batch-2.
Don't also forget that Rafale spares and support will also be at least twice that of a MIG.There is also the option of extra Jags or armed Hawks for the GA/CS role,but this is
considered a lowly job by the IAF,if you take the IA's sniping at times and their demand for full control of attack helos.

NS must be advised as to the best cost-effective options.There is every possibility that come the next decade we will have no 5th gen fighter when the major air forces /West Europeans are already investing in R&D for the 6th-gen fighter. An LCA stealth variant needs to be finesse at the light end as well as a heavy FGFA.These could both arrive at the same timeframe as that estimated for the SE.

Ps:Just for the record a single-seat new SU-35 costs between $40-65M a pop.Which aircraft type would an air force prefer to have with a budget of say around $40-$60+M to beef up numbers and capability?
A $70M Gripen, $+150M+ Rafale, $30+M LCA , $40M+ MIG-35, or more MKIs/35s?

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby srai » 09 Oct 2017 04:42

Rakesh wrote:The IAF has already called it! The want the Gripen E and they want it so bad, that they used the SKAT team to make a Gripen E shape on the 85th anniversary of the Air Force Day. The IAF will not touch the F-Solah. It has "plague" written all over it.

It's a bird...it's a plane...it's the Gripen formation on Air Force Day
http://www.wionews.com/india-news/its-a ... -day-21131

Image

...
The Surya Kirans flew several other formations as well —the Rafale formation, the Sukhoi 30 formation and the Tejas formation. But it was the Gripen formation that proved to be the head-turner with many left wondering whether the IAF had already zeroed in on the Swedish fighter as it's next single-engine fighter plane. Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was asked this question minutes after the function to mark the 85th Anniversary of the Indian Air Force ended. The Air Chief consulted one of his fellow officers before replying and said, “No, it has got nothing to do with that. It is just an aircraft shape with an canard in the front. It can be Rafale, it can be Gripen, anybody with a canard in front...(even a) Sukhoi-30. They just called it Gripen. It means nothing. Nothing to do with Gripen.”

My Comment - GUESS WHAT DOES NOT HAVE A CANARD - F-Solah, Block 70 :lol:

...

:rotfl:

This is MRCA redux -> everyone knew Rafale would be the winner. Now we know Gripen it is ;) These sort of competitions are a real farce. Let's hope LCA is not shafted to get Gripen at all costs.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2017 05:44

Cain Marko wrote:
srai wrote:Admiral saab,

Don't know who these people involved are trying to fool ... if not themselves only. Any sane individual can see through this farcical but the powers that be continues to prod on obliviously :-?

How about increasing the LCA quantities and adding more production lines (private players JV w/HAL)? What is "Make in India"?

More LCA will be the logical and automatic result of this rather long winded process.. :D. The entire thing is setup for failure. financial negotiations in an election year, yeah we know how long that will take...

The Tejas is the ONLY 4+ generation single engine fighter the IAF should be procuring right now. Not this F-Solah/Gripen E nonsense. And order another 36 Rafales and that should be it. No more 4th generation fighters for the IAF. Work on the 5th generation AMCA or acquire the F-35 via a FACO line. The FGFA is a red herring. Another aircraft that is the plague.

Spend the money allocated for the SE deal on another 36 Rafales and up the order from 83 single engine Tejas Mk1As to a 100 birds. So 72 Rafales + 100 Tejas Mk1As = 172, which is 46 aircraft more than the original 126 aircraft. The IAF can induct both - Rafale and Tejas - at a faster rate than the F-Solah or Gripen E. The first 36 Rafales are expected to arrive in Sept 2019, a good five years before the first SE is expected to arrive. All 36 will be delivered by 2022. The IAF can have 172 aircraft by 2024/2025, way before even the first SE plane arrives in flyaway condition from LM or Saab.

srai wrote:This is MRCA redux -> everyone knew Rafale would be the winner. Now we know Gripen it is ;) These sort of competitions are a real farce. Let's hope LCA is not shafted to get Gripen at all costs.

If the IAF could do a Bollywood song & dance on the Gripen E, they honestly would. They love the plane and from the IAF's perspective, you can't really blame them. She is a beautiful bird with some serious capability and she is everything the Tejas Mk2 is. The problem is two-fold i.e. anything of value on that plane is American and that will mean the death of the Tejas Mk 2. And you cannot and must not end a domestic program that has tremendous value for the country. The IAF has to come around to seeing the value of continuing with the Tejas program. And that can *ONLY* happen as more aircraft are inducted into the IAF. I believe there will be a change of heart in the IAF in the next few years. Protracted delays in the SE program - as shown in the article above - is a good thing for the Tejas.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2017 05:44

Aditya_V wrote:This is BS, get 36 more Rafale, ask the french to set up a Jet engine production in India and scrap the Single engine fighter. Use this domestic engine for LCA, LCA Navy, AMCA.

Man this import lobby is strong.

Boss, that domestic engine is the Kaveri onlee being refined now by Snecma. I have no doubt in Snecma's ability to get the Kaveri working and certified, but whether they *want* to do it is a different story. Offsets - which is what Snecma is doing right now from the Rafale deal - have a weird and twisted way of turning out in negatives for India.

nash wrote:New thing is the number-114 and around 11-16, about 10-15% of order as per SP model in DPP, will be from OEM.

Saar, it is 18 in flyaway condition. Basically an entire squadron.

ArjunPandit wrote:sometimes i think i should send a fake report to PMO/CAG/CBI for corruption in this deal to stall it, the same amount of money to have this SE fighter could be used much better elsewehre..

As Amrish Puri said in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - Bali Chada Do! Bali Chada Do! Bali Chada Do! Bali Chada Do! :mrgreen:

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2017 08:30

Philip wrote:Don't also forget that Rafale spares and support will also be at least twice that of a MIG.

Please tell me you meant the above as a joke :eek:

Philip wrote:Which aircraft type would an air force prefer to have with a budget of say around $40-$60+M to beef up numbers and capability? A $70M Gripen, $+150M+ Rafale, $30+M LCA , $40M+ MIG-35, or more MKIs/35s?

What capability are you looking for? Each platform you mentioned above has a different role to play and different roles comes with varied cost.

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Re: 'Make in India' Single engined fighter

Postby shiv » 09 Oct 2017 08:53

ArjunPandit wrote:sometimes i think i should send a fake report to PMO/CAG/CBI for corruption in this deal to stall it, the same amount of money to have this SE fighter could be used much better elsewehre..

This is so clever because it can be done by anyone for any deal and is probably the reason for most delays already


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