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LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2017 02:50

Indranil: Once Aero India is over, can we please start new threads for the following;

LCA - News & Discussion
LCA Navy - News & Discussion
Make In India - Single Engine Fighter

Let gurus (Yourself, Kartik, Cybaru, Karan M, JayS, Marten) summarize all the AI stuff and we can start afresh.

All three threads above have been polluted. Thank You.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 02:54

Note the Uttam layout. This is virtually the same classic layout adopted way back for the MMR - widely mocked in the MSM for being of no use.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Wd9ydPCC3mk/ ... -MMR-2.jpg

The ERP - is a consolidated Exciter Receiver and Processor.

LCS below is the Liquid Cooling System.

The MAWS developed for Su-30 MKI.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MJIG7Qg9ey4/ ... -30MKI.jpg

The significance IMHO is the MAWS was a problem for the Su-30 because it messed up aerodynamics and there was no space to fit it in the plane. So they have put a pylon based arrangement to field this MAWS.

It can be replicated for the LCA. There seem to be six units overall for the Su-30, two fuselage based, two per pylon and adding to a total of six. LCA may require fewer.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 02:59

Build to print and customized work packages for LCA
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WNI2ft2rh1M/ ... ster-1.jpg

Uttam design specs
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-eFl3M7xUaN4/ ... -MMR-1.jpg

The biggest thing - if they achieve it - is the LPI. Its more a suite of techniques than anything else, but it will be a big plus against earlier gen fighters with basic warners (think F-7 etc) and even newer gen ones which may not pick up the radar easily.

In NATO exercises, the mere fact that MIrage 2000s launched ARHs in TWS mode and did not switch to high grain tracking (which means continuous illumination and squawk from warner) meant a decisive advantage against unprepared F-16s.

The specs otherwise are aimed for, in the Zhuk-FGA-35 class
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O_AaDV71Z1c/ ... 2BMRCA.jpg

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 03:01

DARE's displayed active EW hardware for an AESA based jamming solution.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nMFmEHZCys8/ ... 2BAMCA.jpg

This was codeveloped with Elettronica in all likelihood & is the basis of the MiG-29 and now Su30 jammer.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 17 Feb 2017 03:01



Good display it appears. Couldn't find another video with a more stable camera and without the cameraman losing the jet

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 17 Feb 2017 03:05

^^ Karan, the Gorshkov & MiG-29 were rejected by IN three times. Refer here -

http://cdasecbad.ap.nic.in/sankalan/COM ... 0India.pdf

Page 25

A foreign country offered the cruiser as a `gift' but linked the offer to the R&R activities and fighter aircraft acquisition under the package deal.

Two IN delegations that visited the foreign country in August 1995 and January 1998 commented on the deteriorating material state of the ship and stated that it was apparent that little or no maintenance efforts had been undertaken. A third delegation (October 1999) also observed that the material condition of the ship `Q' had further deteriorated and that the process of deterioration was likely to accelerate with the passage of time. The delegation indicated that the state of machinery and systems had worsened to such an extent that the refit could hardly be called `repair'.


Note CAG correctly referring it to as a cruiser and not purpose built aircraft carrier. The superstructure is in the middle and not side, wasting deck space.

Note the very correct assessment of 3 IN teams.

Post 1999 Kargil, PM Vajpayee and RM George Fernandes wanted to better equip forces, so they -

1. Immediately sanctioned Project 71 INS Vikrant at CSL

2. Purchased Gorshkov to fill the gap between INS Viraat decommissioning and INS Vikrant commissioning despite the earlier 3 rejections.

2a. The other option was UK Invincible / Illustrious that were in worse shape. Sea Harrier manufacture had stopped. Infact because of lack of Pegasus engine spares, we had to retire the Sea Harrier. USMC is facing the same problem.

Both PM Vajpayee and RM George Fernandes were very good people with honest intentions who were taken in by Russian assurances.

There is history to consider - in 1960s, after China & Pakistan wars, Soviets gave generous financing and know how to build Vizag Base. Admiral Sergei Gorshkov himself visited Vizag in 1968.

The Russians accepted Rupee payments - and barter commodities like Tea, Cotton & Jute - for Ships & Fighters.

If we ran short of spares, Soviets would fly them from Tashkent overflying Pakistan and China. None dared stop Soviet resupply flights.

Our good friend Philip is still living in those golden days.

PM Vajpayee and RM George Fernandes were cheated - despite the accurate & professional IN assessments.

There was another fundamental problem. Test pilots those days only checked how aircraft flew, not how reliable or maintainable they were.

Su-30MKI flew phenomenally well and MiG-29K operated phenomenally well from the aircraft carrier.

Not assessing reliability and maintenance of both aircraft was a very serious error.

Having said that, we SDREs learn from our mistakes. This was rectified in MMRCA contest, that focused on Performance & Operations Guarantees and Performance Based Logistics.

For Pilatus PC-7, C-130 and C-17, this works well.

Coming back to Tejas, post IOC-2, 123 aircraft are on order, and there is institutional support.

As regards to the mean 3-legged cheetah comments, it was more political in nature.

You see, ADA, HAL and IAF are in a perpetual political tussle.

Refer the comments here -

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/excl ... 99866.html

T Suvarna Raju, Chairman and Managing Director, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the manufacturer of the aircraft, said, "We have established manufacturing infrastructure in Bengaluru for production of eight LCA per annum. The rated capacity would be achieved once the Standard Of Preparation (SOP) is frozen by ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency)."


CD Balaji, Director ADA said, "Updates will keep taking place as the aircraft is flown more often. To say that the design isn't frozen and that it is delaying everything is not correct."


Both TSR and CDB are very respectable. Yet see both of them blaming the other. The truth lies somewhere in between.

Another example would be the spat between Ratan Tata & Cyrus Mistry. Ratan Tata hired Cyrus Mistry to run the Group, but overnight finds him 3 legged Cheetah.

As is the example of the spat between N R Narayanamurthy and Vishal Sikka. NRN hired Vishal and suddenly Vishal Sikka is a bad boy.

The nasty 3 legged Cheetah comment is similar to Ratan Tata, Cyrus Mistry, NRN & Vishal Sikka powerplay.

The good thing is 123 Tejas Mk1/Mk1A are on order and NLCA Mk2 is going strong.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nirav » 17 Feb 2017 03:16

Rakesh wrote:Indranil: If you are reading this, I URGE you to kindly request nirav to stop posting. He is not providing anything valuable other than going round in circles. He is needlessly wasting valuable time from members like Yourself, Karan M, Marten, Kartik, Cybaru among others. Since I fought with him as well, if you want to ban me till his tamasha cools down...please do so. Ban Me Saar, but please get him off this board...even if it is temporarily. There is not a single thread where he has not derailed it with drivel.

Informed members - like the ones I mentioned above - have to waste time explaining things to him which is absolutely pointless. Valuable threads - with good info - is getting mixed up with his nonsense.


Rakesh,
I'm making it easier for you guys.
You won't have to tolerate me and my drivel anymore.
Hope you and your attack dog can continue your mutual admiration society, abuse the AF with gay abandon, still call yourself "Bharat Rakshak"s and make this amazing place an Indian pakdef, where you just can't stand a differing point of view.

I'd like to thank all the other contributing members over the past 13 years I've been here.
I've learnt a lot.
Thank you.
Over and out. ;)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 17 Feb 2017 03:20

Karan M wrote:LCA Radar Warner Jammer

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Paj714_xifM/ ... 2BMK.2.JPG


is this proposed for the Mk1A?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 04:12

Rakesh,

It would have been much easier if others had behaved. If I exercise my ban-vaash band, many here would have to be granted leave.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 04:29

Some good soul can work out the number of TRMs.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zsoi1d5JgCc/ ... Barray.JPG

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2017 04:40

Indranil: you have seen the list of folks that have complained about him. It is not just not me or Karan. It is a long list. But i agree, many of us would have to be granted leave. I will it up to you to make the call. Thank you.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 04:46

Rough estimate, 660 odd TRMs, each of around 7.9W peak power.
For reference: my post from October 2015
viewtopic.php?p=1922326#p1922326

The first BEL Quad TRM module
https://i.imgur.com/oW3Wx0M.jpg

Uttam testing has advanced its capabilities (likely). There has been a 50% range increase mentioned.
The Mk-II is also likely to sport an indigenously developed active electronically scanned array (AESA) fire control radar currently under development by DRDO's Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) under Project Uttam. Hardware has already been realized for this radar which has a range of 100 km and rooftop testing is underway. Apparently December 2015 has been set as a time for both DRDO & the IAF to take stock of the maturity of this radar since the IAF wants clarity on the radar front for the Tejas Mk-II. Though the Uttam AESA currently weighs 120 kgs which is some 40 kgs more than the current MMR, there will be no problem in integrating it with the Mk-II which can easily carry a radar of this weight. So if the end-2015 stock taking exercise satisfies all stake holders, Mk-II will definitely feature LRDE's AESA once it completes development. In fact this radar if successful is also intended as an upgrade package for the IAF's Jaguars and Mig-29s and the Indian Navy's (IN's) Mig 29Ks.

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/568460816208367616

The experience in making AESAs has advanced significantly thanks to AEW&CS but a fighter FCR is not easy.

Astra mentions 10W per x-band TRM (versus BELs quote of 8W)

2015
X-band T/R modules: Partnered in the development of the product. Astra has already supplied two modules of X-band T/R. The user is testing the same. Astra expects orders for AESA radars from Tejas to come after four-five years.

T/R Module Chipsets: The MMICs in the transmit chain can cater to power levels of 38dBm in C band and up to 10W in X-band. Astra also supports with the required driver amplifiers and medium power amplifiers to achieve required power levels at the Transmitting Antenna. These power amplifiers feature very good PAE and hence consume lower power.


The real interesting part is this.

X-Band TRMs are used for QRSAM FCR as well. They are also Quad-TRMs. If DRDO is using the same modules for both programs, thats a large production run (and hence better cost).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 17 Feb 2017 04:51

LCA Aerobatics - AeroIndia 2017
https://youtu.be/2OiBrTDb2p4?t=920

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 04:51

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:LCA Radar Warner Jammer

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Paj714_xifM/ ... 2BMK.2.JPG


is this proposed for the Mk1A?


A podded version is what will come on Mk1A (IMHO). The Mk2 would have a RWJ. If EL/M-2052 is selected + Toplite (which you posted about) then the special pylon which has been cleared for Litening will be used for EW too. However, your guess is as good as mine as to how mature the Israeli radar and EW pod really are, beyond their brochure.

Also, above RWJ needs to clear trials. In what is a perfect example of shortsighted thinking, to avoid CAG censure, IAF and DRDO foreclosed the MiG-27 EW program before it was finalized. The same/similar system formed the basis of LCA EW etc. While one can argue that it consolidated resources, fact remains we had a flying testbed and yanked the program before trials were completed and system matured to any reasonable degree.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 04:52

Kartik wrote:
Karan M wrote:LCA Radar Warner Jammer

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Paj714_xifM/ ... 2BMK.2.JPG


is this proposed for the Mk1A?

I heard that Mk1A's solution will be like this

Image

The outboard pylon can take the extra load.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 04:56

Indranil, so a combination of EW pod + MAWS? Two EW pods?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 05:00

QRSAM

Quick Reaction Surface-to-Air Missile
(QRSAM): QRSAM weapon system is capable
of search on move, track on move and fire on
short halts while engaging multiple targets
at ranges of about 30 km with two vehicle
configuration for Area Air Defence. System
design has been completed and most of the
sub-systems including X-Band Quad Transmit
Receive Modules (QTRMs), Two Way Data
Link (TWDL) onboard segment etc. are under
realization. Missile configuration has been
finalized.


If Astra derivative is used in QRSAM and MMR developed QTRM on the radars, then that is true cross pollination of tech.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 05:26

Karan M wrote:Indranil, so a combination of EW pod + MAWS? Two EW pods?

They havn't finalized yet. But that is what I have heard.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 17 Feb 2017 05:33

So wait qrsam is Astra missile?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 17 Feb 2017 06:04

Cybaru wrote:So wait qrsam is Astra missile?


that would make sense, wouldn't it? SpyDer uses the Python V and Derby, there are AMRAAM based QRSAM, called the SLAMRAAM or NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System), since it was the first application of the AMRAAM in a SAM role.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:42

@vina and @Indranil saars had discussed the aerodynamic finish of the refueling probe - you can see the finish here:

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:43

Any idea what this soap-like thing is? I asked the ADA guy at the display, but he was from the avionics side and didn't know.

Image

If is talks like a soap, walks like a soap, looks like a soap.... ;)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2017 07:45

I was gonna say clay bar, but then I realised that is a plane and not a car.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:45

Last one for this thread for now:

Wish the AF version looked like this!
Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 17 Feb 2017 07:56

Thanks for posting these! Really nice pictures.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Shankk » 17 Feb 2017 08:56

Just my two cents...Nirav and tsarkar, if you guys are reading this, PLEASE do not leave this thread or forum. Your inputs are valuable particularly to keep the thread balanced. Honestly speaking, ideologically I am with other posters and at times have gotten really angry with army and IAF for their actions, but do not want to miss the balance you guys bring even if it get out of hands at times. This is just a temporary phase so please stick around. Sorry others, no more on this topic; just wanted to convey this. Thank you.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Shankk » 17 Feb 2017 09:04

arshyam wrote:Any idea what this soap-like thing is? I asked the ADA guy at the display, but he was from the avionics side and didn't know.


:D :D :rotfl: :D :D

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby abhik » 17 Feb 2017 09:10

Karan M wrote:Some good soul can work out the number of TRMs.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zsoi1d5JgCc/ ... Barray.JPG

736?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Sid » 17 Feb 2017 09:14

arshyam wrote:Any idea what this soap-like thing is? I asked the ADA guy at the display, but he was from the avionics side and didn't know.

-----------

If is talks like a soap, walks like a soap, looks like a soap.... ;)


Since you made it so close to LCA, can you please share the cockpit view as well.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby pralay » 17 Feb 2017 09:57

It will be good if Mk1 standardizes on a single type of screw head,
that will reduce the tools required for assembly and maintenance and hopefully one less item from logistics point of view.
arshyam wrote:Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Eric Leiderman » 17 Feb 2017 10:29

Each bolt screw fastner has a different head for a variety of reasons, Torque,assesability,material,etc Though I think star heads suck, Robertson heads wear well.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jamwal » 17 Feb 2017 15:18

The quality of refueling probe on Tejas is excellent. Compare it to Jaguar's

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Feb 2017 16:00

the jaguar one is well used! thats the difference!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby pralay » 17 Feb 2017 16:35

That one is just a mockup aircraft with real cockpit and refueling pod.
idrw.org/visitors-conned-by-displayed-lca-tejas
arshyam wrote:Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby vina » 17 Feb 2017 18:00

Lalmohan wrote:the jaguar one is well used! thats the difference!

No. Look closer. The Jaguar's is just a circular cross section tube, and it has an ugly adapter where it joins the fuselage. The LCA's is full symmetrical airfoil shaped refuelling probe and a nice clean join with the fuselage. The Jaguar's will have larger aero dynamic drag losses.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Feb 2017 18:09

you are right. great attention to detail.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby habal » 17 Feb 2017 18:43

arshyam wrote:Any idea what this soap-like thing is? I asked the ADA guy at the display, but he was from the avionics side and didn't know.

Image

If is talks like a soap, walks like a soap, looks like a soap.... ;)


it looks like a clay bar to clean the cockpit canopy, some remnants of that white stuff stand out at various places on the canopy.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby RajD » 17 Feb 2017 19:24

http://idrw.org/visitors-conned-by-disp ... ore-125087.
Gurus, Is it true? The article says its a mock up.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Lalmohan » 17 Feb 2017 19:40

vina wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:the jaguar one is well used! thats the difference!

No. Look closer. The Jaguar's is just a circular cross section tube, and it has an ugly adapter where it joins the fuselage. The LCA's is full symmetrical airfoil shaped refuelling probe and a nice clean join with the fuselage. The Jaguar's will have larger aero dynamic drag losses.


quite right, well spotted

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 17 Feb 2017 20:29

Image


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