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LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Cain Marko
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Jul 2017 05:18

Indranil wrote:Although, sad if true, FOC doesn't matter. LCA MK1 is on a guide path. No structural modifications are foreseen. So they are ramping up production as planned. Qualification and addition of features will continue in parallel. This is exactly how it should be.

There are other things too.
1. Supersonic tanks of various sizes
2. Plumbing midboard pylon
3. Astra integration
4. Qualifying centerline pylon for things other than a DFT.
5. Better shaped (pinched) DFTs
6. Qualification with other smart weapons like SAAW

The plane is here for next 30-50 years. The list will go on. Production numbers shouldn't be held up because of such lists.


While I agree that many of these things will be added on as the bird enters into service, and the production setup should not be affected, I had hoped to see an additional order of mk1 until the mk1a became available. I doubt that this will happen now.

This will make imports more likely and give an impetus to the SEI fighter IMHO... Truly unfortunate.

Also does little for the trust between end user and developer, which wasn't exactly in surplus to begin with.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Jul 2017 06:32

Cain Marko: The SE fighter will arrive, whether Tejas has a FOC now or by June 2018. That is guaranteed. A final decision will happen in a couple of years, but it is coming.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nash » 27 Jul 2017 12:18

Cain Marko wrote:
nash wrote:As per Minister of state for Defence Subhash Bhamre statement in Parliament, FOC of LCA delayed to June 2018, may be FOC will be with MkIA configuration.


Source? Horrible news if confirmed. But dileep Saar did imply this.


http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/

didn't find any other source, not sure where we can see the records of statement in parliment

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 27 Jul 2017 13:00

^^You can find ref from LS/RS site.
http://164.100.47.4/newrsquestion/ShowQn.aspx



Induction of Tejas aircraft

1016 Shri Derek O Brien

Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-
(a) whether the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas has been inducted into the Indian Air Force;

(b) if so, when and how many along with the details thereof;

(c) whether the aircraft has received Final Operation Clearance and if not, by when it is likely to;

(d) whether a Tejas Mark II is being developed and if so, the details thereof; and

(e) if so, by when it is likely to join squadron service and details thereof?


ANSWER

MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DR. SUBHASH BHAMRE


(a) & (b): Yes, Sir. The first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – Tejas squadron was formed on 1st July, 2016 with two aircraft. Three LCA Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) Series Production Aircraft have so far been delivered to the Indian Air Force by HAL.

(c) The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected to be completed by June, 2018.

(d) & (e): The LCA Mk 2 is in the Design and Development stage


Look who asked the question. :wink:

nash
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nash » 27 Jul 2017 13:17

JayS wrote:^^You can find ref from LS/RS site.
http://164.100.47.4/newrsquestion/ShowQn.aspx



Induction of Tejas aircraft

1016 Shri Derek O Brien

Will the Minister of DEFENCE be pleased to satate :-
(a) whether the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas has been inducted into the Indian Air Force;

(b) if so, when and how many along with the details thereof;

(c) whether the aircraft has received Final Operation Clearance and if not, by when it is likely to;

(d) whether a Tejas Mark II is being developed and if so, the details thereof; and

(e) if so, by when it is likely to join squadron service and details thereof?


ANSWER

MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
DR. SUBHASH BHAMRE


(a) & (b): Yes, Sir. The first Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) – Tejas squadron was formed on 1st July, 2016 with two aircraft. Three LCA Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) Series Production Aircraft have so far been delivered to the Indian Air Force by HAL.

(c) The Final Operational Clearance (FOC) is expected to be completed by June, 2018.

(d) & (e): The LCA Mk 2 is in the Design and Development stage


Look who asked the question. :wink:


My bad didn't come to my mind that there is a REVISED document of every day :D

He was a quiz master so we can give him that much anyway it was good set of Questions, is there any possibility of him lurking BRF.

Philip
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Philip » 27 Jul 2017 13:24

Great sqd. with only 2 aircraft! I wish O'Brien...sorry,Derek No'Brain... had also asked for the rate of production,whether the second prod. line had been approved and from when would it start production? Also,how many had the MOD/IAF planned to induct and by when?

Kakarat
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kakarat » 27 Jul 2017 13:39

Philip wrote:Great sqd. with only 2 aircraft! I wish O'Brien...sorry,Derek No'Brain... had also asked for the rate of production,whether the second prod. line had been approved and from when would it start production? Also,how many had the MOD/IAF planned to induct and by when?


What is your problem?
Its a well known fact that the Squadron was formed on 1st July, 2016 with two aircrafts and it doesn't mean that the Squadron will have only 2 aircrafts. More Tejas will join once they are handed over to IAF, According to Tejas FB page its 4 aircrafts as of today.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 27 Jul 2017 15:38

nash wrote:
JayS wrote:^^You can find ref from LS/RS site.
http://164.100.47.4/newrsquestion/ShowQn.aspx




Look who asked the question. :wink:


My bad didn't come to my mind that there is a REVISED document of every day :D

He was a quiz master so we can give him that much anyway it was good set of Questions, is there any possibility of him lurking BRF.


Going by the the commie junk he puts up on twitter, I would say he must be detesting the very name "Bharat Rakshak" :lol:

I am thinking why the hell he is taking so much interest in LCA.

Prasad
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Prasad » 27 Jul 2017 17:10

From past questions to stir up trouble with our programs or attempts to glean info, we cannot rule out nefarious motives that might not be evident/visible to the questioner at all. Sorry for the o/t.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 27 Jul 2017 19:17

nash wrote:http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/

IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately


So looks like induction wont be delayed and we'll have 20 Mk1 IOC, 20 Mk1 IOC + some FOC criteria and 83 full FOC + Mk1A standard aircraft.

Nothing depressing about it…production and induction is on track.

As I've mentioned for years, induction is dependent on flight characteristics and not systems.

Even JF-17 Batch 2 supposed to have IFR doesn’t have it.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 27 Jul 2017 19:36

Kartik wrote:
Indranil wrote:Although, sad if true, FOC doesn't matter. LCA MK1 is on a guide path. No structural modifications are foreseen. So they are ramping up production as planned. Qualification and addition of features will continue in parallel. This is exactly how it should be.

There are other things too.
1. Supersonic tanks of various sizes
2. Plumbing midboard pylon
3. Astra integration
4. Qualifying centerline pylon for things other than a DFT.
5. Better shaped (pinched) DFTs
6. Qualification with other smart weapons like SAAW

The plane is here for next 30-50 years. The list will go on. Production numbers shouldn't be held up because of such lists.


Indranil, is that the list of items being worked upon by ADA/HAL/NFTC based on your discussions with sources or is it the list of things that you feel will need to be worked on?

I too agree that while disappointing to hear about the slide in FOC, one needs to keep in mind that even without an internal cannon or IFR, the Tejas Mk1 is a capable fighter. it is the production at desired rates that needs to be achieved and nothing should come in the way of that. Many of the much vaunted 4th gen fighters didn't get to their FOCs till they were well into squadron service.

1 and 4 is being worked on. 2, 3, 5 are being talked about. 6 is my wishlist :D

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 27 Jul 2017 20:58

Philip wrote:Great sqd. with only 2 aircraft! I wish O'Brien...sorry,Derek No'Brain... had also asked for the rate of production,whether the second prod. line had been approved and from when would it start production? Also,how many had the MOD/IAF planned to induct and by when?



Philip, Constant putting down and sniping is not becoming of you.

Please restrain yourself.

The LCA production rate is I year : 8/yr , II year :12 yr and then III year onwards : 16/yr .....
Average 16 planes/ squadron.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Jul 2017 04:08

PMO snubs DRDO over Peikarumbu expo launch

By Pradip R Sagar | Express News Service | Published: 27th July 2017 08:57 AM |

With most of the DRDO projects, ranging from Tejas light combat aircraft to long range surface-to-air missile systems, repeatedly missing deadlines and facing huge cost overruns, Modi’s outright rejection to inaugurate an exhibition at the venue of the memorial of a former DRDO is seen as his attempt to distance from the white elephant (DRDO), which often faced criticism. In fact, during his first interaction with DRDO scientists, Modi had sent a stern message to the agency for their ‘Chalta hai’ (lackadaisical) attitude.

Vivek K
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Vivek K » 28 Jul 2017 05:30

What rubbish reporting!!

ramana
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 28 Jul 2017 07:43

We should rebut that bogus article on SM.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sum » 28 Jul 2017 09:32

^^ Why are we sure its not correct ? ( just playing the devils advocate)
He did tick off the DRDO very strongly in his first interaction which was posted here at that time and IIRC, Modi did the same thing to Times Group to show his displeasure( publicly refusing to grace the event) and they got the picture and started backpedalling.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 28 Jul 2017 10:04

Modi did no such thing in his first encounter. He made a lot of statements praising the org and one statement asking all Govt orgs to speed up. The same Antony said, the same as Parrikar and yet it was picked up by DRDO baiters like Pandit to attack the org. The same JOURNO chaps who gleefully bat for imports. It does not take much to see what their motivations were and are. Immediately thereafter and continuing DRDO budget picked up, the numbers are posted on the forum.

Just the other day, Modi led GOI awarded a huge deal for Akash and MRSAM and then extended both programs. Does that indicate a GOI distancing itself from lical programs?

Have some discernment and see the history of the reporter in question, he has been a long time DRDO baiter and was even ticked off by Gen Hasnain openly recently for his trolling the services. Hasnain mentioned him by name and clearly asked him to desist from trolling the services.

Further, a cursory search of Modis tweet timeline shows him congratulating DRDO for the BMD tests and several other programs. If he was indeed ticked off at any ONE org, he would not bother making those statements.

Next, DRDO is getting far better fiscal support under this Govt and its chief has mentioned as such.

Lastly, for the first time DRDO even got to showcase its products at the Parliament and that too occured under Modis watch, including a recent cancellation of SRSAM for Akash. Jaitley is now continuing the same.

Your post is a perfect example of how quickly motivated reporting causes FUD and dismay. Modi keeps journalists at arms length.

What next? You will state Modi doesnt believe in the armed forces because he couldnt attend some function and some random journalist says so?

Sagars timeline is full of anti DRDO bilge and of late he has tried to extend it to the services till Hasnain spoke up. DRDO has no such folks to smack him down, so use your discernment rather than jumping on every anti DRDO article with a frazzled oh gawsh, it must be true. Thats worry warting and playing the DDM game.

Of course a lot needs to be done to improve bureaucracy etc, but this sort of hack job is so obvious.

The DDM has a vested interest in pretending Modis govt is fraying, he is unhappy with his own GOI orgs, there are divisions in the BJP, the central govt doesnot trust the services and is hence forcing measures on them.. this sort of kite flying occurs 24/7. Modi gives two hoots for the media.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JTull » 28 Jul 2017 14:59

Manish_Sharma wrote:
PMO snubs DRDO over Peikarumbu expo launch[/b]

By Pradip R Sagar | Express News Service | Published: 27th July 2017 08:57 AM |

With most of the DRDO projects, ranging from Tejas light combat aircraft to long range surface-to-air missile systems, repeatedly missing deadlines and facing huge cost overruns, Modi’s outright rejection to inaugurate an exhibition at the venue of the memorial of a former DRDO is seen as his attempt to distance from the white elephant (DRDO), which often faced criticism. In fact, during his first interaction with DRDO scientists, Modi had sent a stern message to the agency for their ‘Chalta hai’ (lackadaisical) attitude.


PM Modi failed to receive me last time I was in Delhi. He hates my ilk and is anti my community. He even didn't wipe my bu?? this morning.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby uddu » 28 Jul 2017 20:59

haha..These mediacrooks...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby VKumar » 29 Jul 2017 00:51

Would be terrific learning for all if a Kaveri engine is mounted on a LCA. check the dimensions, then the plumbing and wiring, followed by static and taxi trials. After that we consolidate the learning and proceed to flight trials.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby chetak » 29 Jul 2017 00:59

VKumar wrote:Would be terrific learning for all if a Kaveri engine is mounted on a LCA. check the dimensions, then the plumbing and wiring, followed by static and taxi trials. After that we consolidate the learning and proceed to flight trials.



you have compressed many long years into a few short sentences. :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rudradev » 29 Jul 2017 03:20

Sorry I am late to the party, but why is the above not being done? I am no engineer but it seems like the obvious path forward.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 29 Jul 2017 04:18

VKumar wrote:Would be terrific learning for all if a Kaveri engine is mounted on a LCA. check the dimensions, then the plumbing and wiring, followed by static and taxi trials. After that we consolidate the learning and proceed to flight trials.


What I recall circa 1995 the Kaveri engine weight to thrust ratio was bad for the TDS.

However if the LCA is going to lose weight from the ballast and landing undercarriage they should re study the weight balance issues.

RD, all aircraft are right now allocated for the numerous flight trials.
Once the FOC is achieved, should be able to see how it integrates.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Jul 2017 04:21

Rudradev wrote:Sorry I am late to the party, but why is the above not being done? I am no engineer but it seems like the obvious path forward.

There's a very educative thread here Rudradev jee, you'll enjoy very much:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6387
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 29 Jul 2017 11:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rudradev » 29 Jul 2017 04:56

Thanks Manish, will do my homework there and then come back :)

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gagan » 29 Jul 2017 05:22

GTRE wants a Mig-29 testbed to test the Kaveri first

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 29 Jul 2017 06:24

One seriously mango question - From what I remember Keveri was developed with LCA size and other particulars. It is not developed for Mig29. Kaveri has certain size etc and weight and so does the present engine RD 33 of MiG 29 has its own size and weight. I checked both engines in Wiki Chacha. They are not even nearly close. How does the Kaveri fit in? Does it mean some modifications will be done to MiG 29 to make Kaveri fit in and used for the testing purpose?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Gagan » 29 Jul 2017 07:15

The russians use the following:
IL-76 for subsonic testing
Mig-29 / Sukhoi 27 series for supersonic testing

Image

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jul 2017 07:28

Why MiG-29 and not underwing testing on something?
1. Supersonic? (Ah! Tubelight goes on - that's exactly what Gagan has said above!)
2. High angle of attack?
3. Fast controls?
4. High altitude?
Anyway, it would be great if MiG-29 is modified to take a Kaveri. Encouraging move.

BTW, I had not realized that there a mature manufacturing line for MiG29 (and Su-30MKI?) including engines in India. Plenty of airplanes flying around! Hopefully some are used for control surface testing and all sorts of other testing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jul 2017 07:30

Wow! Thanks for the pic, Gagan. Why the elaborate nacelle I wonder.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Singha » 29 Jul 2017 08:20

Mig29 has BRD not manufacturing line in india.

the more strong looking pylon and cowl could be to contain any explosion or fire in a new engine ... it looks like the inlet diameter is variable to suit different engines.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 29 Jul 2017 08:33

UlanBatori wrote:BTW, I had not realized that there a mature manufacturing line for MiG29 (and Su-30MKI?) including engines in India. Plenty of airplanes flying around! Hopefully some are used for control surface testing and all sorts of other testing.

Overhaul onlee for MiG 29 AFAIK

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby DavidD » 29 Jul 2017 10:10

tsarkar wrote:
nash wrote:http://idrw.org/lca-tejas-foc-delayed-update/

IAF has not stressed for equipping the Second batch of 20 LCA MK-1 with Inflight-refueling probe immediately


So looks like induction wont be delayed and we'll have 20 Mk1 IOC, 20 Mk1 IOC + some FOC criteria and 83 full FOC + Mk1A standard aircraft.

Nothing depressing about it…production and induction is on track.

As I've mentioned for years, induction is dependent on flight characteristics and not systems.

Even JF-17 Batch 2 supposed to have IFR doesn’t have it.


I thought all JF-17 Batch 2s have removable IFRs that are attached when needed. I only follow the JF-17 peripherally though so I might be wrong.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jul 2017 11:19

What IAF mission requires Pantry Car?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jayasimha » 29 Jul 2017 16:04

some old link regarding LCA production rate.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=153870


Presently, HAL has established facilities for manufacturing and delivery of 8 LCA per annum.

There is a plan to ramp up the production rate from 8 to 16 Aircraft per annum progressively by 2019-20.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri MI Shanavas in Lok Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ  

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jayasimha » 29 Jul 2017 16:34

Till we get some updates on Tejas, we can cherish some old news ,,,,
---------------------

http://www.sainiksamachar.nic.in/englis ... 16/h11.htm

"Tejas" Inducted into No. 45 Squadron of IAF
The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) "Tejas" was inducted into No. 45 Squadron of Indian Air Force (IAF) on July 1, 2016. No 45 Squadron, also called the "Flying Daggers", was last equipped with MiG 21 Bis Aircraft and operated from Nalia. Its motto is "Ajeet Nabha". The Squadron will operate from Bangalore for nearly two years before it moves to its designated location at Sulur near Coimbatore. It is the first fighter Squadron to be a part of the Southern Air Command of IAF headquartered at Thiruvananthapuram.


Gp Capt Madhav Rangachari, an alumnus of the National Defence Academy, is the Commanding Officer of Flying Daggers. He flew the inaugural flight of LCA in 45 Squadron. Apart from operational experience on Mirage-2000 and MiG 21, he also has considerable experience on flight testing of LCA prototypes.
Tejas is the Fly-by-Wire (FBW) first advance fighter aircraft designed, developed and manufactured in India. Conceived as a MiG-21 replacement, the aircraft has been designed and developed by Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) and produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). It is to the credit of its designers, manufacturer, technicians and test crew, that LCA has flown more than 3000 sorties / 2000 hrs till date without any accident.

Tejas is a 4th Plus generation aircraft with
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A]glass cockpit
B]equipped with state of the art Satellite aided Inertial Navigation System.
c]digital computer based attack system and an autopilot.
D]It can fire air-to-air Missiles, bombs as well as Precision Guided Munitions.


The induction of the aircraft is being planned in a phased manner.

The IOC aircraft
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
E]armed with Close Combat air to air Missiles,
F]Helmet Mounted Display
G]Precision Guided Weapons like Laser Guided Bombs.
H]capabILITY TO DROP unguided bombs with much higher accuracy due to highly advanced indigenous mission computer.

The FOC aircraft
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
I] incorporate Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles,
J] improved and better stand-off weapons and air to air refueling capability.


LCA Mk 1A
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
K]would incorporate new generation Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar with simultaneous air to air and air to ground capability,
L]an integrated advanced Electronic Warfare Suite,
M]advanced versions of air to air and air to ground weapons
N]maintainability improvements.


With 45 Squadron commencing operations, soon the Tejas would be employed to defend the Indian skies.
- Wg Cdr Anupam Banerjee

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jayasimha » 29 Jul 2017 16:37

Image

The Vice Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal S.B. Deo and the Air Vice Marshal A.P. Singh after a sortie of the indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas), during the Aero India 2017, at Air Force Station, Yelahanka, in Bengaluru on February 18, 2017.
CNR :93695 Photo ID :99077

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby jayasimha » 29 Jul 2017 16:37

Image

UlanBatori
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jul 2017 17:11

Is it a 2-seater or did the Air Marshal ride as External Stores? (JUST CONFUSED, pls don't attack!) The ViceMarshal has the map pad in his right thigh pocket, suggesting that he sat in the left-hand seat if there are 2 seats. The Air Marshal made my day. My tummy also looks that way, Marshalji!

UlanBatori
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Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 29 Jul 2017 17:15

Hain, why is there a small intake like that for an APU, way up on the spine of the LCA far behind the pilot? Is this for the super-secret Mach 6 SCRAMJET mode for missions to Urumyi? Same question as I asked above: what IAF missions require in-flight refueling? Ferrying Air Marshals from TVM to DEL?


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