LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

[prasannasimha]

If I remember right they had multiple planes on jigs in one photo

[JayS]

Number of reasons. One is the physical cost of upkeep. You have X number of parameters that you maintain on a given aircraft. Stealth adds Signature Management, and RCS restoration to the task. This involves taking each and every process that you perform not he aircraft and making it compliant with stealth and RCS signature management. Then comes the physical cost of maintain signature over life-time. As I have shown on the Int. thread Lockheed with FiberMat have been able to largely reduce the added cost of coatings keeping them at a minimum.

Then there is a design cost. Stealth forces internal bays, larger fuel volume resulting in a larger aircraft over the same mission requirements compared to a 4th generation aircraft. All these things have an added cost. We can then move on to the electronics and mission systems where you need to maintain stealth as well. Net, you end up paying an O&S cost although over time and with newer technology you have reduced the gap quite significantly in that regard.

Point of the question is, why not think of a new design philosophy which will get us cheap LO tech rather than following existing philosophies.

For example, rather than hiding an aircraft's signature absolutely, we can simply hide it in large number of signatures by use of cheap decoys..?? (not a new concept but giving as an example to contrast with LO). Finally what matters is that the enemy should not be able to stop you from your intended mission. Can we achieve it in a way other than stealth..??

If we define mission objectives and constraints clearly then the designers can think of innovative ways to come up with a solution. But if the program starts with "requirements" or "Specifications" such as supercruise, stealth, internal bays etc, then the solution necessarily gets pushed to the same path. AMCA will go down the tried and tested path. But we can try to create a new path with something like LCA-Mk3.

[JayS]

I was just reading recent report by Anantha Krishnan again and was positively surprised by last lines. HAL hopes to deliver SP6 by March-17.

Is it really possible ?

HAL hopes to take the Tejas deliver tally to six aircraft (SP-1 & SP-2 included) by end of March 2017. Components up to SP-9 are already in different stages of assembly, coupling and equipping on various jigs at the LCA Division.

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/mobile/n ... -1.1373414

HAL needs to make 8/yr this year, so they better be doing this anyway.

[NRao]

For example, rather than hiding an aircraft's signature absolutely, we can simply hide it in large number of signatures by use of cheap decoys..??

Most such tricks have existed since WW-II. Chaff was (is?) commonly used to tmp hide an air craft. They have tried delaying the signals (wrong distance/height), providing more than one signal (more crafts than there are), jamming, etc. The problem is that the enemy still has substantial knowledge of your arrival. "Stealth" (not even LO, which can be achieved via other means) delays the detection of your presence to make it too late for the defender.

[Rakesh]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

[ArmenT]

Most such tricks have existed since WW-II. Chaff was (is?) commonly used to tmp hide an air craft. They have tried delaying the signals (wrong distance/height), providing more than one signal (more crafts than there are), jamming, etc. The problem is that the enemy still has substantial knowledge of your arrival. "Stealth" (not even LO, which can be achieved via other means) delays the detection of your presence to make it too late for the defender.

Chaff is used for short term decoying (e.g. for confusing an incoming missile seeker head). For long term decoying, there have been a few examples e.g. the Quail, which is a small subsonic cruise missile that looks like a B-52 bomber on radar and up to eight of these could be carried by a single B-52 at a time. The idea was to launch these to overwhelm Soviet missile defense systems and to cause them to reveal the location of their SAM launchers. Another model, the Northrop BQM-74, was very successfully used during the first day of Op. Desert Storm. These were launched in groups of three to resemble a squad of fighter aircraft: one group managed to successfully divert a group of Iraqi fighter jets away on a futile intercept mission and about 30 of them circled over Baghdad for hours causing the Iraqi radar systems to be overwhelmed and later targeted by anti-radar missiles. As far as India is concerned, this might not be the way to go though because (a) India =/= USA (b) Pakistan =/= Soviet Union (they have a lot less territory to move radars around) and (c) since India doesn't make jet engines yet, can't see them using an expensive imported jet engine on a decoy when they could use it for the real LCA. Perhaps a low-end engine would suffice here. Doesn't need to have the performance/lifetime of the LCA engine, just enough to look the part.

The other alternative is to use aircraft with dedicated electronic warfare (EW) hardware to jam enemy radar systems (e.g.) the EF-111, EA-6B Prowler, EA-18G Growler, Tornado etc. These were successfully used against Libya (Op. El Dorado Canyon), Iran (Op. Praying Mantis), Iraq (Op. Desert Storm), Afghanistan etc. Using EW hardware on an existing fighter aircraft seems more practically suited for India's purposes. Who knows, maybe an EW variant of the LCA is in the works for later.

[shiv]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

Will these touch screens work with gloves?

MK-2 will sport Touch based two 6×8 main display with Smart MFDs and one 5×5 smart MFD which will have Day and Night mode .

[srin]

I was wondering the same too. Touchscreens used in aircraft *seem* to be resistive screens (one we used to have on phones 10 years ago, that can work well with gloves but you need to press on the screen) and not the capacitative displays which require an electrical conductor to touch the screen (rules out ordinary gloves) but much easier to use.

[NRao]

You get winter gloves that work with things like iPhone, etc.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywo ... wAodnfcNJg

I would imagine they would have figured out a solution for aviation too.

[shiv]

Or gloves with open fingertips - because gloves reduce accuracy

[Dileep]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

Will these touch screens work with gloves?

MK-2 will sport Touch based two 6×8 main display with Smart MFDs and one 5×5 smart MFD which will have Day and Night mode .

Yes, they will One of the line items in the requirements is that onlee.

According to the EoI (which is published online), the touch screen is IR based, zero force touch.

[NRao]

I am told one can use the gloves to text on an iPhone and the like.

[GShankar]

Or gloves with open fingertips - because gloves reduce accuracy

Back in the day, nokia brought a phone first with this touch screen tech from synaptics - http://www.theverge.com/2012/9/5/329361 ... creen-tech

Now probably all phones have this. And other touch screens could have them too.

[ramana]

ArmenT, What do you know of the Chukkar drone assembled Der license from US?

[ArmenT]

ArmenT, What do you know of the Chukkar drone assembled Der license from US?

Chukar is the Northrop BQM-74 that I mentioned in my post above.

[Farooq]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

Take note gentlemen - from the article:

IAF and MOD are exploring feasibility of starting Second production line for Tejas MK2 while IAF is still not put a final figure on MK-2 aircrafts they want but it is estimated that final figure might be close to 300 aircrafts till then IAF is committed itself in procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk 2s and the Indian Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 for Indian Navy. Talks have been held with Private Defence companies and Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) is emerging as a viable option said source.

Record this. These are first Mk1, Mk 1A, Mk2 combined estimates I have come across. These are just Indian orders. I expect some international orders too.

In addition check this link http://idrw.org/is-parrikar-planning-pr ... tejas-mk2/

[Vivek K]

India would be foolish not to keep the LCA going to the MK3-6 versions - look at Mig-21 F/FL/PF/M/MF/BIS, F-16 A - F-16 Block 60 and so on. You can only be a power on your own weapons.

[ashishvikas]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

Take note gentlemen - from the article:

IAF and MOD are exploring feasibility of starting Second production line for Tejas MK2 while IAF is still not put a final figure on MK-2 aircrafts they want but it is estimated that final figure might be close to 300 aircrafts till then IAF is committed itself in procuring an initial 83 Tejas Mk 2s and the Indian Navy has expressed its firm requirement for 46 LCA Mk2 for Indian Navy. Talks have been held with Private Defence companies and Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) is emerging as a viable option said source.

Record this. These are first Mk1, Mk 1A, Mk2 combined estimates I have come across. These are just Indian orders. I expect some international orders too.

In addition check this link http://idrw.org/is-parrikar-planning-pr ... tejas-mk2/

It's true, couple of RFPs have been issued for Mk2 by HAL but at the moment I'm not convinced on other information like order etc mentioned by this report.
What's their source of information, can't say if this is authentic news.

[Neshant]

A Canadian "startup" company produces zero force touch screen technology which can be added to any regular screen of any dimension to produce a touch screen. It works even with gloves and can handle multiple touches at the same time.

Created by an Indian innovator.

They are developing & qualifying it for the aerospace industry.

It has detectors around the edge of the screen which compute the positioning of finger/s and works under all kinds of conditions including bright lights.

http://baanto.com/

[NRao]

India would be foolish not to keep the LCA going to the MK3-6 versions - look at Mig-21 F/FL/PF/M/MF/BIS, F-16 A - F-16 Block 60 and so on. You can only be a power on your own weapons.

1) Both GD/LM and MiG exported a lot of aircrafts. I very much doubt they would have made that many variants if not for the export component. Native AFs cannot pay that kind of money to keep a plane afloat. There was talk of the Rafale, Gripen and the EuroFighter shutting down if not for more sales - all abroad.

Definitely the IAF cannot keep the PCS afloat. Because ....

2) The IAF in specific needs infusion of newer techs for sure, unless chicom falls apart, which is a possibility.

India needs to focus on the design/production segment. Make that does not die. As long as they can deliver good platforms the plane itself should not matter.

[ShauryaT]

If the above reports are true, it sounds so sensible that I cannot reconcile the above with the illogical singled engined MII program, when you have a made in India program.

A private production line for Mk 2, Mk2 being built by ADA to IOC standards and not as TD or prototype, the numbers. All music to my ears. If say from 2022 onwards both Mk1A and Mk2 are in full production, then what is the issue. Why do we need another single engined MII?

These reports need corroboration to see where things are going.

[NRao]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

That seems to be a plagiarized article. That author seems to have picked articles from 2015 and subed a few words here and there.

http://aermech.in/hal-tejas-mark-2-adva ... ed-forces/

http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

My suspicion arose when I read :

The LCA Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by the more powerful GE-F414-INS6 engine. ADA is procuring 99 GE-F414-INS6 engines to power the Tejas Mk-2 and LCA Navy. The contract has been finalized and is awaiting approval.Under the contract, the first lot of the engines will come by 2014-15 and the rest would be manufactured in India under transfer of technology [agreements].

[Neshant]

Reading an article from mid 1964 about the launch of the sleek little Marut feels like dejavu when comparing it to the LCA.
The LCA's story is almost a direct parallel of the Marut.
Just like the Tejas MK2, the Marut had an MK2 version which was planned with a more powerful engine.

Reading the article, you can almost feel the enthusiasm and hope for the future with the launch of the Marut even more so than the Tejas.
Who would have guessed the program would end in such a dismal state due to disastrous project management.

The babuz better pay real close attention to the progress of the MK2.
Apparently, there is a big jump that most projects fail to clear as it approaches the 80% completion mark.
I've noticed it on a bunch of projects.
The first 80% sails ahead with few issues. But the last 20% is a vertical mile high wall of problems that many projects fail to jump.

The next 3 years will literally decide the success or failure of the Tejas project and history is not on our side.

----

"Maruta: India's Hindustan HF-24 Joins the IAF"
Flight International, 2 July 1964, Vol. 86, No. 2886. pp. 16–17.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/ ... 01991.html

[Bala Vignesh]

A lot of the technologies developed for the AMCA can go straight into the MK2 - which really raises the question why to even rush into producing the AMCA.

That really makes a lot of sense to me.. The Mk2 project can be considered as a test bed for us to mature and test the technologies we wish to inject into the AMCA.. I see that it has multiple benefits all around for both the projects..

[Rakesh]

Tejas inches closer to FOC; crucial trials coming up
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1629819

[NRao]

A lot of the technologies developed for the AMCA can go straight into the MK2 - which really raises the question why to even rush into producing the AMCA.

That really makes a lot of sense to me.. The Mk2 project can be considered as a test bed for us to mature and test the technologies we wish to inject into the AMCA.. I see that it has multiple benefits all around for both the projects..

Because the AMCA is a revolution, as opposed to an evolution?

I would expect some processes, learnt from the LCA, to migrate to the AMCA. But techonologies? Very few I would think and hope.

If one uses the MK-II as a test bed, which by itself is a good idea, will no longer be a MK-II.

My feel is that the LCA will stop at MK-1A.

[ramana]

Question from Sanjay:

I wonder how much of the Gripen, by value, is Swedish? While we're at it, why is it that Tejas is "foreign" but Gripen is "Swedish"? Engine and weapons are American, Selex makes the radar and EW system and BAE made the wing designs.

[Viv S]

Question from Sanjay:

I wonder how much of the Gripen, by value, is Swedish? While we're at it, why is it that Tejas is "foreign" but Gripen is "Swedish"? Engine and weapons are American, Selex makes the radar and EW system and BAE made the wing designs.

The EW suite is a Saab product. But yes, in general, agreed. The Tejas in no more 'foreign' than the Gripen, a project that was at one point part-owned by BAE.

[Indranil]

Unfortunately, a Thai Gripen has crashed recently in an aerial demonstration.

[NRao]

Question from Sanjay:

I wonder how much of the Gripen, by value, is Swedish? While we're at it, why is it that Tejas is "foreign" but Gripen is "Swedish"? Engine and weapons are American, Selex makes the radar and EW system and BAE made the wing designs.

The EW suite is a Saab product. But yes, in general, agreed. The Tejas in no more 'foreign' than the Gripen, a project that was at one point part-owned by BAE.

Very true from content pov.

However, the Swedes have been at both aircraft (Saab, prior to SAAB) and jet (Volvo) engine design since the 1930s. They pioneered some of the techs up to WW-II, when they were requested to shut down with a promise!!!! Thus the current predicament.

[Kartik]

HAL Tejas Mark 2: Advanced Variant of LCA Tejas
http://defenceupdate.in/hal-tejas-mark- ... lca-tejas/

That seems to be a plagiarized article. That author seems to have picked articles from 2015 and subed a few words here and there.

http://aermech.in/hal-tejas-mark-2-adva ... ed-forces/

http://idrw.org/focus-shifts-to-tejas-m ... -critical/

Precisely what I was thinking when I read that article. it does not seem to be very reliable. We would be well advised to wait till AI-'17 to find out the status of the Tejas Mk2. The planned dates for the rollout of the prototype seem too early as well, so it looks like an article cobbled together with information available from earlier articles on the Mk2.

[ramana]

NRAO, As Colin Bin Powell declared 'Past is past' let's talk about present.

[NRao]

NRAO, As Colin Bin Powell declared 'Past is past' let's talk about present.

Ok.

The engine is more Swedish than American: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_RM12.

Produced by Volvo Aero (now GKN Aerospace Engine Systems), the RM12 is a derivative of the General Electric F404-400. Changes from the standard F404 includes greater reliability for single-engine operations (including more stringent birdstrike protection), increased thrust, and the adoption of a full authority digital engine control (FADEC) system.[1][2] Several subsystems and components were also redesigned to reduce maintenance demands.[3] The air intakes of the engine were designed to minimize radar reflection from the compression fan, reducing the radar cross section of the aircraft overall.[2] The F404's analogue Engine Control Unit was replaced with the Digital Engine Control – jointly developed by Volvo and GE – which communicates with the cockpit through the digital data buses and, as redundancy, mechanical calculators controlled by a single wire will regulate the fuel-flow into the engine. These mechanical backup systems remain in the new Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) which Volvo began developing in 1996.[2] General Electric produces 50% of the engine. Elements such as the fan/compressor discs and case, compressor spool, hubs, seals, and afterburner are manufactured in Sweden, final assembly also taking place there.[2]

Mods are Sweden based, some components come from GE. I suspect because of lower costs.

And,

Gripen Radar Upgrade Aimed At Sweden And Exports

Sweden—Saab unveiled a major upgrade of the JAS 39C/D Gripen’s radar here April 27, intended to double its detection and tracking range and give it the ability to track low-radar-cross-section (RCS) targets.

Developed with company funds over the last two years, the Saab PS-05/A Mk. 4 bucks the trend toward electronically scanned arrays in radar design by retaining a mechanically scanned antenna. A prototype made its first flight in a Gripen in December, on a JAS 39D, and the radar is being offered to the Swedish air force and to export customers, with deliveries two years after an order.

[JayS]

The engine is more Swedish than American: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volvo_RM12.

Believe me its not. Not even anywhere near that. Dont ask for source, I can't quote.

Even with French core, Kaveri would be far more Indian than RM12 is Swedish.

[nits]

Is LCA planned for any other Air Show outside India ?

[shiv]

Unfortunately, a Thai Gripen has crashed recently in an aerial demonstration.

Thanks for posting. I had missed this and have now added it to my Twitter hashtag #FlightSafety where I am tracking all accidents as far as I get to know of them

This is a weird one. The plane is on a high speed run - rolls 180 deg but fails to turn back until it is too late - either a catastrophic mechanical failure or pilot disorientation? Probably not bird hit as the engine can he heard until it smashes on to the ground

[SaiK]

Could it have been a control (f)law /failure? reason: I don't see ejection happening

[Indranil]

Hakeem, this one looks very interesting indeed. The pilot is a very experienced one, a squadron leader. He had a few thousand hours under his belt. Apparently he was showing a "surprise attack" maneuver. I don't know what that means, but he flew in with a lot of energy and started to pull the nose up. Soon after, the airplane starts to roll. I don't think there is a question of G-loc here. And in spite of all this experience, energy and consciousness, the airplanes nose drops. The pilot tries to recover the aircraft by completing an aileron roll, but its too late.

Saik sahab, ejection has nothing to do with control (f)law/failure.

[Lalmohan]

not PIO?

[SaiK]

Q: Did the pilot die?