LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 22 Jun 2017 04:34

Its like a cloud... its taking over all threads... honestly i would not be surprised if it gets a mention in the Arjun thread.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 22 Jun 2017 04:58

Khalsa wrote:Its like a cloud... its taking over all threads... honestly i would not be surprised if it gets a mention in the Arjun thread.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Jun 2017 06:28

Indranil wrote:If you take unfavourable conditions for one, it should be applied to the other as well. GEneral rule of thumb, if you have two aircraft with similar performance, fuel fraction, and engine SFCs, their range and combat radius will also be comparable. What does work in F-16s favour is that its fuel fraction deteriorates by a lesser amount with the same amount of payload, vis-a-vis the LCA. But that will be about it.

Good point!

The marketing brochures of foreign fighters always state the best performance under ideal conditions. They also do special photo sessions with weapons and all that jazz. A lot of fanfares at the airshows. Same should be done for the LCA. Need to throw in a bonafide marketing campaign to change mindsets. It won't cost all that much. "Our work will show for itself" doesn't win hearts and minds.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Jun 2017 09:26

srai wrote:
Indranil wrote:If you take unfavourable conditions for one, it should be applied to the other as well. GEneral rule of thumb, if you have two aircraft with similar performance, fuel fraction, and engine SFCs, their range and combat radius will also be comparable. What does work in F-16s favour is that its fuel fraction deteriorates by a lesser amount with the same amount of payload, vis-a-vis the LCA. But that will be about it.
Good point!

The marketing brochures of foreign fighters always state the best performance under ideal conditions. They also do special photo sessions with weapons and all that jazz. A lot of fanfares at the airshows. Same should be done for the LCA. Need to throw in a bonafide marketing campaign to change mindsets. It won't cost all that much. "Our work will show for itself" doesn't win hearts and minds.

More the senior members ignore the main point more it must be repeated until its embedded in the psyche.

Lets suppose the Lca (combat radius, payload, turning radius, AoA) is superior than the F-16 Blk99. Even then if the LCA can NOT be manufactured with Guaranteed delivery, then its only good for a museum.

IAF has zero faith in HAL that they will get deliveries of LCA-MK1.009 .. Let alone -MK2.. and forget even the AMCA.

We need basic knowhow in MASS PRODUCTION of complex systems and its not as easy as order parts and start assembly.

There needs to be a 10-year plan to bring defense manufacturing knowhow to the country.
F-16 manufacturing in india will - should bring a "shame on us" factor to wake us up to accept high quality manufacturing as a science that India had ignored and is being ignored by the self-proclaimed pundits on BRF.

Its about time to stop this emotional attachment to LCA (not even the right name).. Tejas and accept that IAF, TaTa, NaMo's Government are not fools or anti-national and Mr. Suvarna Raju is the only savior.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jun 2017 09:54

Oh, the unassailable panacea argument.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Jun 2017 09:54

^^^
Rishi V,

Tell me in 10-years time if what you say/believe in becomes true. I'll send you a bag of sweets

Too often it seems there is still a very strong belief that foreigners will be the savior of all things. Time to believe in Indian capabilities.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jun 2017 09:57

How about pay HAL licensing rights to build a private line for LCA. We are going to pay the phirangs that anyhow.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jun 2017 10:00

Once the platform has been realized manufacturing prowess or lack of it is merely a reflection of how much money and resources we have pumped into that aspect ; be it ability to churn a platform faster per assembly line or simply scaling by adding more assembly lines it needs money and more hands (right now we can ignore efficiency or automation for we have enough human resources ) . Thing is LM once gets into a JV with Tatas both will pour money and bodies at this problem a rate which GOI and HAL will not and cannot match. Actually a lot of ex and current ADA/ADE/NAL/HAL types will be poached by this JV ; where do you think the Tatas will recruit technicians and specialists for the job overnight from ? We will end up spreading ourselves too thin and not gain much by this.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 22 Jun 2017 10:45

Deccan chronicle article:

US dumps ageing F-16s on India?

http://epaper.deccanchronicle.com/artic ... id=8391425

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Jun 2017 11:10

Indranil wrote:How about pay HAL licensing rights to build a private line for LCA. We are going to pay the phirangs that anyhow.

That would be only fair. I would say, let GOI bankroll that money and give it to HAL on behalf of the Pvt co, as a soft loan for example, to start with.

I have had proposed a 50:50 JV line between HAL and some Pvt company like TASL long time ago, here, for extra LCA line. Its stupid to expect HAL to help create its own competitor without any stake in it. On one hand we want HAL to stand on its own feet and run like any other MNC. On other hand we want it to train another co so it can complete it in future..? That's being disingenuous on our part. Whereas being in a JV lets HAL have the cake and eat it too by means of having a 50% stake in it. HAL brings in tech expertise while Pvt co brings in management and processes' expertise. And being in a Pvt Ltd domain the company would be outside the purview and nautanki of MoD babus too. It makes a lot of sense to me.

As such GOI had floated an offer to build 200 planes in a private facility. Though we never got to know exact details of the offer IIRC, the indication was that it was for LCA MK2. But there was no taker for it. Why..?? Make no mistake, even the big biz houses are not ready to take a plunge and invest their money where they will have to toil hard and setup everything from scratch, build the competency over a longer period. They also want readymade "halwa". Only carrot is not enough for them. So basically importing a system works well for everyone except for the Nation, in longer run.

But unless GOI and IAF commits for significant orders upfront (subject to quality and performance parameters of coarse) nothing will work. Basically we need to put a self imposed ban on whole system import anymore. If we cant have that much self control, we should simply go for Pokhran 3..!!

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Jun 2017 11:10

srai wrote:^^^
Rishi V,

Tell me in 10-years time if what you say/believe in becomes true. I'll send you a bag of sweets

Too often it seems there is still a very strong belief that foreigners will be the savior of all things. Time to believe in Indian capabilities.

I dont see the issue as desi vs phirangi, gora vs brown, i only see the issue as two companies HAL as a spoiled beta vs Boeing (or LM) as a Baap with a danda. Just the quality capability and work ethic (on-time delivery).

Too bad HAL happens to be desi. Are they open to reform? Should they be given chance after chance? iAF does not think so..

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 22 Jun 2017 11:16

Rishi Verma wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Rishi V,

Tell me in 10-years time if what you say/believe in becomes true. I'll send you a bag of sweets

Too often it seems there is still a very strong belief that foreigners will be the savior of all things. Time to believe in Indian capabilities.
I dont see the issue as desi vs phirangi, gora vs brown, i only see the issue as two companies HAL as a spoiled beta vs Boeing (or LM) as a Baap with a danda. Just the quality capability and work ethic (on-time delivery).

Too bad HAL happens to be desi. Are they open to reform? Should they be given chance after chance? iAF does not think so..

Thank you IAF Spokesman Air Cmde Verma. We'll inform you whenever the official position of the IAF is actually stated. Until then, please continue to fly your tigermoths right into any windmill in sight.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Jun 2017 11:24

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:How about pay HAL licensing rights to build a private line for LCA. We are going to pay the phirangs that anyhow.
On one hand we want HAL to stand on its own feet and run like any other MNC.

Strawman argument to write mumbo jumbo.. There is NO mandate for hal to be an MNC. Or even to "stand on its own".. Whatever it means.. HAL mandate is to manufacture and service aircraft for our military - had they done it efficiently then they were guaranteed orders.

we should simply go for Pokhran 3..!!

icing on the cake, when nothing concrete to write.. Top it off with bombastic words.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 22 Jun 2017 11:37

Indranil wrote:How about pay HAL licensing rights to build a private line for LCA. We are going to pay the phirangs that anyhow.

had Tatas studied the LCA blueprints for manufacturability, they would have made a fast retreat to their Nano plant. Its that bad.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jun 2017 11:45

Oh please. Not even AF guys deputed to HAL ever said that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 22 Jun 2017 12:44

Rishi Verma wrote:
Indranil wrote:How about pay HAL licensing rights to build a private line for LCA. We are going to pay the phirangs that anyhow.
had Tatas studied the LCA blueprints for manufacturability, they would have made a fast retreat to their Nano plant. Its that bad.

Who said that? You

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Jun 2017 13:31

Rishi Verma wrote: F-16 manufacturing in india will - should bring a "shame on us" factor to wake us up to accept high quality manufacturing as a science that India had ignored and is being ignored by the self-proclaimed pundits on BRF.

You mister wallstreet need to be ashamed. You are attached to amrikan f16.

HAL has mfrd Jaguar and Hawk successfuly.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 22 Jun 2017 13:49

srai wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote:
had Tatas studied the LCA blueprints for manufacturability, they would have made a fast retreat to their Nano plant. Its that bad.
Who said that? You

Tata Advanced Materials in fact makes many of LCA composite structures and are negotiating with HAL for more work

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Jun 2017 14:16

It is not that Tata's are manufacturing gods. See Tata made cars.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2017 22:55

Rishi Verma, Please make you case in one post.
Folks shutting off discussion wont help.
And besides you can make the same comments to him no?

There are some structural issues with HAL and we are reluctant to air them.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jun 2017 23:13

Rishi Verma wrote: had Tatas studied the LCA blueprints for manufacturability, they would have made a fast retreat to their Nano plant. Its that bad.

I will call you out here. You know NOTHING about LCA's manufacturing process.

I am serious, if you know anything, give me a small hint of ANY specific problem. And don't post a news report. Anything specific, like so and so LRU is at this place and that leads to so and so difficulty in manufacturing OR this part of LCA is incredibly difficult to manufacture because of so and so reason OR it surprises me that they have placed this LRU there when actually, if they could have placed it here, manufacturing it would have been greatly simplified.

There are problems in manufacturing the LCA, just like in the manufacturing of ANY aircraft. None of them are related to blueprints

. If you actually knew people in HAL and ADA attached with the project, you would have known how critical they are of each other. When I listen to them, I am surprised that they even work on the same team! But, at the same time, this criticism is also leading to the refinement of the design.

You, on the other hand, want people to respect you based on blatant bluffing. That works when the people surrounding you don't know anything else either. Not the case here.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Jun 2017 23:20

Rishi Verma wrote:
JayS wrote:
On one hand we want HAL to stand on its own feet and run like any other MNC.
Strawman argument to write mumbo jumbo.. There is NO mandate for hal to be an MNC. Or even to "stand on its own".. Whatever it means.. HAL mandate is to manufacture and service aircraft for our military - had they done it efficiently then they were guaranteed orders.

we should simply go for Pokhran 3..!!
icing on the cake, when nothing concrete to write.. Top it off with bombastic words.

Ignore the TROLL! Makes claims and doesn't substantiate any. There isn't any useful discussion to be had here.

Admins: Don't we get banned for exactly this type of behavior? Why the pass to disrupt?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 22 Jun 2017 23:27

Let him answer my specific questions. The rope is getting shorter by the day.

negi · Post by **negi** » 22 Jun 2017 23:58

ramana wrote: There are some structural issues with HAL and we are reluctant to air them.

HAL has serious flaws but that is not the point of contention here ; thing is HAL is like a malnourished kid of a low income household who at the end of the day is still family's own, our criticism of our institutions is driven by the intent to reform them not to subject them to scrutiny against established players from well fed economies who anyways play with a loaded dice . Since this is LCA thread the only relevant context around LM's JV with Tata is the fact that as a country we might do to the LCA what we did to the Marut .

Important thing to take away from this discussion is how no one is not complaining about LCA's deficiencies anymore just like no one talks about secularism anymore to me that is a great thing, people know that Tejas is pretty good (sure there are areas to be improved upon) but the goal posts have now been shifted and the new point of contention is 'manufacturing' . Now manufacturing a fighter AC at scale is not HAL's forte not if the numbers at which MKIs were churned is unacceptable (I personally have no strong views on this ) however the point being discussed here is we have completed the most arduous phase of fighter AC development (except the engine) so why should we now not confront the manufacturing problem head on instead of switching our focus from the Tejas to an older generation platform which if and when inducted will not only drain money and resources from Tejas and it's successors but will keep India from achieving self reliance in this space for an additional decade or two .

We are seriously one fckd up country I mean who the fck goes out shopping for an AC of similar capability as home grown one just because one cannot manufacture it at high enough rate ? Manufacturing 'rate' should be least of our worries , hire men, throw resources and crack a whip first batch will have issues but then subsequent ones will come out alright that is how UK, US, Germany and RU produced planes during WW II after that it was all a routine for them , here we are just arguing about HAL's deficiencies as if there is a commandment carved on stone which states that Tejas has to be produced by HAL and only HAL alone.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jun 2017 00:38

Rishi Verma wrote:F-16 manufacturing in india will - should bring a "shame on us" factor to wake us up to accept high quality manufacturing as a science that India had ignored and is being ignored by the self-proclaimed pundits on BRF.

I would ask you to refrain from using the term "us". It is nauseating to be associated in the same camp as you. Might I remind everyone that this is the same guy who shamelessly maligned a respected DRDO scientist because he reportedly had bad teeth and could not speak proper English. Hides behind a keyboard and an alias and spews nonsense.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Jun 2017 02:48

Problem is that people with little knowledge of the state of affairs start shouting off. Today's LCA is a mature weapon system. It has proven itself (in testing) with A2G and is perhaps done with A2A trials. Its FCL is proven and shortly IFR will also be proven. One needs to understand that this is an added requirement because the initial requirement was for a point defence fighter and every additional equipment adds weight to the fighter.

LCA has been ready for squadron service for some time and if it had been supported by the IAF, it could have been exported to friendly nations. Manufacturing rates can be solved with investment - so that bogey is a non-starter.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jun 2017 04:51

+1 negi

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 23 Jun 2017 05:21

negi wrote:....
We are seriously one fckd up country I mean who the fck goes out shopping for an AC of similar capability as home grown one just because one cannot manufacture it at high enough rate ? Manufacturing 'rate' should be least of our worries , hire men, throw resources and crack a whip first batch will have issues but then subsequent ones will come out alright that is how UK, US, Germany and RU produced planes during WW II after that it was all a routine for them , here we are just arguing about HAL's deficiencies as if there is a commandment carved on stone which states that Tejas has to be produced by HAL and only HAL alone.

This will ring truer when we can accomplish this:

"For years, Indian security forces have relied on the AK-47 rifles, largely imported from Russia, Bulgaria and other countries. The lightweight and easy to use weapon is a favourite of all arms of Indian security forces and military. Given the popularity of the weapon and its demand in India, the company that makes AK-47 rifles is now planning to have collaboration with Indian partner under the India-Russia military cooperation."

http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-news ... ction.html

HAL is not malnourished. It has lived off its advance payments from GoI and counted interest earned as revenue (Google it). No private firm will partner with HAL on a 'separate line' for the LCA. The risk is too great. HAL unions can easily sabotage by not being fully cooperative. And you can't build it without full HAL cooperation and involvement.

This idea of exporting the LCA makes me smile ruefully. We have zero experience in arms sales. The HAL Dhruv sales to Ecuador were made by the Israelis who had to be pressured in order to meet 'offsets'.

Arms sales require a degree of skill and sophistication (like bribing the Generals) that we as a nation don't have. We are not alone in this. Look at how miserably the Japanese have failed on the Soryu sale to Australia and it Amphibian planes to everyone else.

Let HAL show that it can build and deliver the 120 a/c it has orders for and deliver them on or ahead of schedule and on budget. They may surprise all or they do an Air India. It's up to them and lack of resources/orders is no longer an issue or excuse.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 23 Jun 2017 07:04

Oh sure - what do we know about exports?? We're better off buying roosi junk eh! or from the frogs!

No way can the Yindu export!!! I agree O master!! We were born slaves onleee!

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jun 2017 07:10

^^^
Next two years is crucial for HAL to deliver. From recent news updates on the production facilities, jigs for some 8 to 12 LCA have been setup and that many are at various phases of assembly. Plus, the outsourced major components from likes of L&T (wings) and VEM (central fuselage) would be gradually integrated to the assembly process. Approvals and funding for the second line (8 more capacity) has been given. All signs indicate 2018/19 as the year of regular deliveries (12+/year) taking place.

Once 80% outsourcing of LCA parts/components (CDK/SDK model) occurs, setting up third/fourth final assembly line at a private player would be feasible. Yeah sure, there maybe some issues with HAL unions but some JV-type agreement should be looked into that would follow similar model pursued with foreign JVs--LM-Tata, Dassault-Reliance etc. Upper management at HAL seem to be open to the idea of private players running additional LCA assembly lines. These are policies coming from the current GoI. Some business is better than no business. With LCA production-JV, HAL would still get a slice of the pie on top of the 123 it is producing, but with foreign MII JV being pursed by Tata/Reliance/Mahindra HAL would be excluded from such deals. So it is in their interest to get more LCA orders and partner with private players for line expansion. A consortium of public-private Indian aerospace enterprises that are being created through the LCA production could form a strong lobby against imports in the future.

Not to forget, HAL has more production goodies -- ALH, LUH, LCH, HTT-40 and IJT-36 -- to throw out to the private players. Smart business/political move would be to rope in as many big Indian corporate into the fold and distribute facilities to as many Indian states as feasible. Use this leverage to win more orders from the GoI and influence policies.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Jun 2017 06:57

This pic made my day

Five tejas lined up ..... not in one room though

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 25 Jun 2017 07:03

Nose cone of first on the right looks different from other 4. It must be the Cobham one.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 25 Jun 2017 08:18

Perhaps OT, but is the nosecone of the Naval versions smaller than the others due to the angle? Just to get an understanding of how that issue was tackled.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2017 08:56

Is that the "naval version" or the trainer. The trainer has a smaller nosecone

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 25 Jun 2017 10:18

suryag wrote:This pic made my day

Five tejas lined up ..... not in one room though

That's the detachment for Republic Day parade 3 SP's, 1 LSP & 1 PV. The LSP is KH-2013 with Cobham nose

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Jun 2017 19:17

Some titbits picked up from FB Tejas - LCA:

Derby ER confirmation

28 May at 07:58 Sanjay Badri-Maharaj:
So natural conclusion is that test was a DerbyER? Is that the case?

28 May at 09:49 Tejas - LCA:
you are right, sir.

23 May at 04:23 Saurav Pattnaik:
Was Derby fired at BVR distance? Was it entirely guided by Tejas radar or did Derby's active homing take over?

23 May at 09:12 Tejas - LCA:
Fired with Tejas Radar, sir.

Gun trials coming up

26 May at 17:53 Sanjay Badri-Maharaj:
How are gun trials progressing? No news for a very long time.

27 May at 09:20 Tejas - LCA:
Getting ready for the ground firing trials, sir.

28 May at 22:18 Maheswaran Selvaraj:
Sir, when gun friing trails starts ? why it getting delayed ?

28 May at 23:20 Tejas - LCA:
Sir, it will happen as planned. The ground trials will commence soon.

20 June at 10:21 Oscar Zulu:
Hasn't the gosh-23 already been integrated on Tejas and ground firing trials have been held? There was a video too. Then what is this ground integration firing trials mentioned here ?

20 June at 10:33 Tejas - LCA:
The earlier one was with a diff prototype. This one with the FOC standard aircraft.

Supersonic drop tanks

30 May at 00:18 Oscar Zulu:
What is the status of integrating supersonic drop tanks on Tejas? It was part of Foc as much I remember.

30 May at 00:50Tejas - LCA:
It should be on aircraft before FOC, sir.

30 May at 06:08Oscar Zulu:
And if it is possible can we have a pic of the supersonic drop tank?

1 June at 03:47Tejas - LCA:
sir, we will post once they come to aircraft.

New Radome performance

16 June at 12:53 Prerak Patel:
How has been the performance of radar after integration of the new radome?

16 June at 17:06 Tejas - LCA:
Better with new radome.

SP5 & 6

17 June at 15:23 Joyo Alappat:
can u guys give update on sp5 and sp6 also the python 5 aam issue

17 June at 16:41 Tejas - LCA:
Sp6 will be ready shortly and sp5 will follow.

FOC

15 June at 19:55 Narendra CP:
When are we getting the FOC. is it pushed to next year???

17 June at 10:52 Tejas - LCA:
It will happen withing the time frame originally meant for.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 26 Jun 2017 04:44

^^^
Srai Bro, thanks very much for doing this! Much appreciated!!!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jun 2017 13:15

ASked before.Has the LCA passed its gun firing trials?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 26 Jun 2017 13:42

Philip wrote:ASked before.Has the LCA passed its gun firing trials?

Clicky for insider info

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 26 Jun 2017 19:00

srai wrote:
FOC
15 June at 19:55 Narendra CP:
When are we getting the FOC. is it pushed to next year???

17 June at 10:52 Tejas - LCA:
It will happen withing the time frame originally meant for.

Lungi dance moment if the above comes through.
FOC was slated for June.
4 days to go.