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LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 06 Mar 2017 20:10

On the F-22, I believe, even opening a panel requires repatching of the stealth material.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 06 Mar 2017 21:46

If anyone is interested, they can read FAA AC20-107B which is on Composite parts, their certification, repair categories etc. It defines damage to composite part in Category 1-5. On one end there are damages which can be ignored and on the other extreme the damages need immediate repair before any more flights can take place.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 06 Mar 2017 21:47

NRao wrote:On the F-22, I believe, even opening a panel requires repatching of the stealth material.


Might be true. As such they have to reapply stealth coat/paint before every mission. Though they might not be doing it for training sorties and all where stealth is not of paramount importance.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2017 22:31

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Su-25, Shivji.

My original post mentions both A-10 and Su 25. The Su-25 was IMO a "me too" effort by the USSR


I really don't remember the antecedents, you might well be right; theres a long history though of flying pillboxes but amriki interest may have caused su-25 to develop.

http://www.airvectors.net/avsu25.html

tsarkar, IMHO replacing the LRUs once the aircraft returns is fine. dileep originally mentioned survivability post combat damage. densely packed modern aircraft - i wonder- whether they take the kind of punishment the earlier gen su-22 types could. all depends on whether the shrapnel hits. imho gripen, LCA, etc are lucky if they take heavy hits and keep flying because they are so jam packed with equipment. also, the latest A2A missiles apparently target the cockpit area for shrapnel hits.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Mar 2017 22:32

JayS wrote:If anyone is interested, they can read FAA AC20-107B which is on Composite parts, their certification, repair categories etc. It defines damage to composite part in Category 1-5. On one end there are damages which can be ignored and on the other extreme the damages need immediate repair before any more flights can take place.


all depends imho on degree of immediate damage and whether aircraft can return.
there are phamous pichers of F-15 flying with wing missing.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2017 08:08

A little hint from a forum lurker enabled me to locate this paper online - it throws a lot of light on damage to aircraft composites including battle damage and methods of repair
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA571922

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby shiv » 07 Mar 2017 08:15


OT - but man on left standing on ugly jugaad of welded pipes with old plywood on top. Leaky old tent. Non TFTA

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 07 Mar 2017 09:35

shiv wrote:

OT - but man on left standing on ugly jugaad of welded pipes with old plywood on top. Leaky old tent. Non TFTA


Looks like a forward base to me.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby uddu » 07 Mar 2017 09:37

shiv wrote:

OT - but man on left standing on ugly jugaad of welded pipes with old plywood on top. Leaky old tent. Non TFTA

Greasy pants, Helmets not covering the ears. No gloves. No proper lighting and torch given. Plastic cup on nose. Dirty windshield. Pilot cannot not see what's ahead. And the fourth guy is not doing job, just standing there and watching. Wasting taxpayers money. Need to privatize this. :((

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Postby prasannasimha » 07 Mar 2017 09:48

The key to protection of a fighter us to protect what survived in a returning plane and not that brought the plane down. This is counterintuitive but an engineering fact as this is a compromise made die to weight penalty of aircraft.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Singha » 07 Mar 2017 10:07

that harrier pic was in afghanistan

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Neshant » 07 Mar 2017 10:17

Rakesh wrote:Neshant: if you are reading this...I sent you a PM. please check.



What did i win this time.

Hopefully not yet another ban.

I'm already on a hattrick winning streak with that.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Zynda » 07 Mar 2017 13:07

shiv wrote:A little hint from a forum lurker enabled me to locate this paper online - it throws a lot of light on damage to aircraft composites including battle damage and methods of repair
http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA571922

Thanks. Good paper. Presents a nice over view. Will be useful to me.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2017 03:11

Neshant wrote:What did i win this time.

Hopefully not yet another ban.

I'm already on a hattrick winning streak with that.

:rotfl: I am not an admin. I cannot ban you. Relax.

Did you get my PM?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Aarvee » 08 Mar 2017 05:13

Neshant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Neshant: if you are reading this...I sent you a PM. please check.



What did i win this time.

Hopefully not yet another ban.

I'm already on a hattrick winning streak with that.


Neshant saar, I am also trying to get in touch with you but I am a newbie so cant send PMs. Any email ID I can contact you on?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Neshant » 08 Mar 2017 08:12

Rakesh wrote:Did you get my PM?



Yes I got your PM. But it said nothing other than to contact you via email.

It was a bread crumb.. leading to another bread crumb.

I get the feeling there's a mouse trap at the end waiting for me.

Could you give me a hint as to what the topic of discussion is?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Neshant » 08 Mar 2017 08:15

Aarvee wrote:Neshant saar, I am also trying to get in touch with you but I am a newbie so cant send PMs. Any email ID I can contact you on?


I'm curious as to why everyone wants to contact me all of a sudden.

Could you give me an idea of what you'd like to discuss?

I'm a bit skittish about giving out my email.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2017 09:06

Dude, you are crazy!!! :lol:

Never mind!!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Aarvee » 08 Mar 2017 09:46

Neshant wrote:
Aarvee wrote:Neshant saar, I am also trying to get in touch with you but I am a newbie so cant send PMs. Any email ID I can contact you on?


I'm curious as to why everyone wants to contact me all of a sudden.

Could you give me an idea of what you'd like to discuss?

I'm a bit skittish about giving out my email.


Fair enough, I dont have an anon email so I was not sure if I should post it here.

I wanted to talk to you about an old post of yours in in the "Entrepreneurship Discussion" thread on 09 Sep 2016. regarding a Biotech project in Blore. I am in the same field. For a bit more background on me, I have posted a small summary in "Indian Biotech News & Discussion" on the 1st of March.

Admins, please forgive this OT. Will be last post.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2017 02:47

Aeromag Cdr.(retd.) Balaji's interview

On the eve of Aero India 2017, what major initiatives would ADA be showcasing?

ADA would showcase the flying prowess of the aircraft in the currently cleared envelope of 8’g’ and higher angles of attack during the display flying.


So it appears that the aerial display at Aero India 2017 included 8g maneuvers and upto 26 deg alpha.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby enaiel » 09 Mar 2017 03:43



HAL has drawn the following likely delivery schedules for 20 aircraft in LCA AF Mk1 (IOC) configuration, 20 aircraft in LCA AF Mk1 (FOC) configuration and 83 aircraft in LCA AF Mk-1A configuration.
Production Schedule is like this: 20 aircraft IOC Standard &4 aircraft FOC Standard are targeted to be delivered by 2018-2019 at the production rate of eight aircraft in an year in 2017-18 and 12 aircraft in an year in 2018-19. Remaining 16 FOC Standard aircraft are targeted to be delivered by 2019-2020.
83 LCA AF Mk1A standard Production will commence from 2020-21 with a Production Rate of 16 aircraft in a year


Happy to be proven wrong. That gives some breathing room for Mk1A to develop while Mk1 FOC is being produced.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 04:16

WITH INDUSTRY HELP, LCA ORDER CAN GO BEYOND 123: T SUVARNA RAJU, CHAIRMAN, HAL

Feb 24, 2017.

The LVA flight on Republic Day was a show of confidence. Has the project truly taken off?

The LCA was the first single engine fighter to fly at the parade in 29 years. It shows the confidence of the customer. The fighter is no longer a prototype but is being flown by the Air Force. Just a few days back, the plane was flown with a refueling probe. This was the improvement we had promised on the aircraft. I understand that the flight went off well and no difference was felt in the performance of the plane and it proves the design is good. We’ll now do a wet trail to go after the refueler and fill the fighter up. This will be a major milestone. We will double the range of the fighter.

Will LCA be ordered in larger numbers and what is the contribution of the industry to the project?

We’re looking at a performance-based, time-wise plan to integrate a new AESA radar and electronic warfare suite on the fighter by 2018. If we keep up to our promise, I don’t think the order will stop at the current 123. The Defense ministry is planning a single engine fighter to be made in India with the industry but even after that, there’s a gap of 200 odd fighters that we can make good. We have planned our manufacturing capability at 18-20 fighters a year and have started subcontracting – the wing to L&T and central fuselage to Vem Technologies. If they start delivering, it’ll enhance our capability.


There was an interview vid, where he said the same thing about more than 16 a year. I expect them to reach 24 a year, not including the single engine aircraft.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 09 Mar 2017 04:55

I'm hoping (desperately) that FOC comes soon and the IAF will pleasantly surprise us and order another 20-40 Tejas at FOC std by 2022. This will give HAL the buffer needed to ramp up production AND get the Mk1A up and running. Not to mention the fact that it will help IAF's dwindling numbers.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 05:32

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju

Feb, 2016:

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?

The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are lookin ..

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 09 Mar 2017 05:37

NRao wrote:Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju

Feb, 2016:

How involved will the private sector be in the production of the LCA aircraft in India?

The first 20 aircraft will be completed by 2018, by when we have to make a Mk 1A version of the aircraft. We are ramping up production to 16 aircraft a year. We have recently issued request for quotations to the private players to supply modules like fuselage parts and wings. If we can get this from the private sector, we can increase production to 25 aircraft a year. So, we are lookin ..



Okay promise us on BR, you won't repeat the manufacturing f16 is the best thing after sliced bread, after you posted this! :rotfl:

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju
The man leading India's top military aviation company feels that the US offer to produce F 16 and F/A 18 jets in India is not attractive, as both jets failed to meet the cut at an air force competition for new fighters. The chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Suvarna Raju, says that any gaps in the fighter force can be met by shoring up production of Indian developed Light Combat Aircraft , to which the private sector can contribute 80% of parts.
Last edited by Cybaru on 09 Mar 2017 05:43, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Mar 2017 05:38

:lol: :rotfl: :D :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 06:45

:lol: :lol:

You are funny CY.

Even Shri Suvarna Raju changed his mind ....................in LESS than a year - yikes. :rotfl: And, you are still hung up on something that does not even matter. :lol: What a travesty and waste of bandwidth.

Raju seems to be achieving things that no one in the Indian aero industry has accomplished so far. HTT-40 is one. He will certainly help produce many LCAs, I expect 200-300 or so (HE says: "there’s a gap of 200 odd fighters that we can make good" :eek: . THAT is a quote CY). MK1As tho, not the MK2 (the AMCA has taken over its dates) (BUT, they will complete the two MK2s - one for the IAF and teh other for the IN, which is really good). :D Raju will export some of them too. And make a decent profit to boot. He is the ONLY person I have coem across who is trying to up the production rate to 25. Everyone is stuck at 16!!!! even BR. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Move your focus to the AMCA - the future of Indian aero MIC. It is ready to take off, irrespective of who thinks what of anything else. $2-4 billion by mid this year is my guestimate.

Stick around with a non issue or run with a nice B'luru designed GE engine to power the AMCA, which is already mature enough.

Up to you. But, you are funny, I will grant you that. :lol:

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2017 08:23

^^^

While we are on the topic of what Shri Suvarna Raju has said, here is a piece where he wants private players to set up 3rd LCA assembly line.

Private sector must play a larger role in defence manufacturing: Hindustan Aeronautics’ T. Suvarna Raju
September 2, 2016
...

Do you have plans to work with private entities in India?

Yes, we want a third (assembly) line to be run by the private sector. In fact we want the private players to come in now and produce LCA or light combat helicopter (LCH) as we don’t want to make more investments into this space. As of now, our LCA project is doing well and the government has already placed orders for 100 LCA. We have also started a series of productions.

What role do you see for Indian manufacturers and suppliers in defence production, in the light of Make in India initiative?

We want to increase our production to 16 LCA a year. In the past, HAL would have added a third (assembly) line to create a capacity of 24 planes a year. But we don’t want to do it now; we want the industry people out there to come up with it. As for the ‘Make in India’ initiative, it is an opportunity for the Indian industry and they can make components and supply to us.
...

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 08:50


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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Mar 2017 08:53

Cybaru wrote:
Okay promise us on BR, you won't repeat the manufacturing f16 is the best thing after sliced bread, after you posted this! :rotfl:

Local production of US F 16 & F/A 18 not attractive: HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju
The man leading India's top military aviation company feels that the US offer to produce F 16 and F/A 18 jets in India is not attractive, as both jets failed to meet the cut at an air force competition for new fighters. The chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Suvarna Raju, says that any gaps in the fighter force can be met by shoring up production of Indian developed Light Combat Aircraft , to which the private sector can contribute 80% of parts.


:)

He was giving arguments like 'rafale' will be obsolete by 2036 so don't buy them or mfg them just lease them for 20 years. But according to him f16 won't be obsolete even by 2072 !!!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2017 09:10



If you don't complete a project that you have already spent a great deal of time on and gain valuable knowledge (or mastery) through it, then the next project will bound to be difficult as well. India needs to take its hard-earned "know-hows" and "know-whys" to its completion. That's the only way it can seamlessly move on to build a naval AMCA. All it requires is a little extra funding (pittance actually compared to imported replacements).

From a timeline perspective, NLCA Mk.2 would be ready around 2025 whereas NAMCA is more like 2035. Another decade would be lost waiting for the next great thing. Continue with what you have and keep learning. Besides, why does it always have to be either-or? Why not run parallel projects?

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby NRao » 09 Mar 2017 09:45

srai wrote:


If you don't complete a project that you have already spent a great deal of time on and gain valuable knowledge (or mastery) through it, then the next project will bound to be difficult as well. India needs to take its hard-earned "know-hows" and "know-whys" to its completion. That's the only way it can seamlessly move on to build a naval AMCA. All it requires is a little extra funding (pittance actually compared to imported replacements).


ADA/HAL will build a N-LCA MK2. They have not cancelled the two MK2s.

Having said that the AMCA team has been working on the machine for about 10 years now. Check out the news coming out in the past month or so - they have a basic simulator, which by itself is a great feat. They have been funded to some extent.

I do not think there is going to be major lean on the LCA program, by the AMCA team. IF at all you should see the LCA benefiting from the AMCA techs..

From a timeline perspective, NLCA Mk.2 would be ready around 2025 whereas NAMCA is more like 2035. Another decade would be lost waiting for the next great thing. Continue with what you have and keep learning.


The IN signed up for the AMCA (the IAF and IN call it the NGFA, not AMCA) in 2008!!!


I have not said this earlier, but, I think the IN let go of the MK2 because of two factors: first that the MK2 was pushing the time lines of the AMCA further away (in the latest news articles, you can see that the AMCA occupies the timeline of the MK2) and as a result was stunting and delaying the AMCA. Which is why I would not be surprised, in fact expect to, see the IAF leave the MK2 program too. In July.

I do not think there is/will-be anything wrong with the MK2.

I have not seen any dates or articles on the N-AMCA so far.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 09 Mar 2017 11:15

NRao wrote:...
I do not think there is going to be major lean on the LCA program, by the AMCA team. IF at all you should see the LCA benefiting from the AMCA techs..
...


I think you are confusing the matter of knowledge-gain and foundations vs a specific end-tech. Look it goes both ways. For AMCA to happen, LCA setup an entire aviation industry and R&D in India with software, facilities, manpower, etc. And vice versa, with next generation technologies being attempted on AMCA those will flow back to LCA program in upgrades/next variants.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 09 Mar 2017 15:38

NRao wrote:
Having said that the AMCA team has been working on the machine for about 10 years now. Check out the news coming out in the past month or so - they have a basic simulator, which by itself is a great feat. They have been funded to some extent.

I do not think there is going to be major lean on the LCA program, by the AMCA team. IF at all you should see the LCA benefiting from the AMCA techs..


I have not said this earlier, but, I think the IN let go of the MK2 because of two factors: first that the MK2 was pushing the time lines of the AMCA further away (in the latest news articles, you can see that the AMCA occupies the timeline of the MK2) and as a result was stunting and delaying the AMCA. Which is why I would not be surprised, in fact expect to, see the IAF leave the MK2 program too. In July.

I do not think there is/will-be anything wrong with the MK2.

I have not seen any dates or articles on the N-AMCA so far.


News about AMCA flight simulator has been posted on BRF quite a while ago. But it doesn't say much about program maturity. Its little better than a video game right now. As a whole the program is barely out of conceptual design stage. Don't get surprized with some significant changes in configuration in coming years. We might see that :P

How could LCA MK2 push AMCA time further away..?? I mean they are two different programs which can be run by two different teams. In fact unless NLCA MK2 is finished properly, NAMCA can't be kicked off without the risk of having to make significant changes in it downstream. If there is issue with manpower, thats not problem of LCA MK2 project per se, but merely shows than there is lack of funding and resources. Anyways ADA has only 700 Sc/Engg working on about 6 programs now. Which is 1/3rd of the number we should have deployed (notwithstanding the fact that many thousands from DRDO/HAL and other organisations work on these projects too).

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Mar 2017 20:52

@Jay_S, @Manish_Sharma, @srai: Mk 2 is a clear & present danger to the single engine fighter purchase. That's the reason for this constant bashing on Mk 2 (and also on Mk 1A and Mk 1). Anything to buy the F-Solah. The irony is the IAF does not even want the F-Solah. The love the Gripen E, even though it does not exist! The only spanner in the works for the IAF were the Indian and US Govts who were cozying up to each other because of China. Then Trump happened and you saw the rhona-dhona on BRF from the pro F-Solah crowd. Now they are catching at straws and desperately hoping the Trump Administration continues the Obama Administration's policy towards India wrt to the F-Solah.

Make America Great Again is diametrically opposite to Make In India.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 09 Mar 2017 22:30

^ Satyavachan

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 09 Mar 2017 22:58

Good summary Rakesh!

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 09 Mar 2017 23:32

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Cybaru wrote:
Okay promise us on BR, you won't repeat the manufacturing f16 is the best thing after sliced bread, after you posted this! :rotfl:



:)

He was giving arguments like 'rafale' will be obsolete by 2036 so don't buy them or mfg them just lease them for 20 years. But according to him f16 won't be obsolete even by 2072 !!!


What's equivalent to knighthood in Amorica?? :eek:

Turkey wants it's f16s retired now due to horrendous cost of supporting them.

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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Rakesh » 10 Mar 2017 00:15

^^^@Manish_Sharma: The first Rafales are due to arrive in late 2019 and the last in 2022. If we went by a retirement date of 2036, that would mean an age span of onlee 14 - 17 years. If someone posted that on BRF, WOW! :roll:

Folks: These two chaps ring a bell? :)

Two hoity-toity, uppity, Brown Sahibs who ruined India because of their convoluted thinking and we are still paying the price for it in 2017! They are so busy thinking, they cannot even look directly at the camera! :lol:

Don't fall for the spin folks! Tejas all the way baby!

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Cybaru
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Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cybaru » 10 Mar 2017 00:25

AMCA will come when it comes. No point in playing the role of expectant father pacing the hall ways just yet! I don't think the baby has been conceived yet! There is a desire, YES, but act of Modi govt to give a check still remains and then there is a long road ahead. It's partners the IAF also have to figure out what they want. They have become somewhat more comfortable asking for the moon and the russians are seeing that on the FGFA. Given this a lot of their needs are not going to be met with FGFA, there is a possibility that AMCA might end up with a list that others havent been able to meet.

Lets just focus on LCA for now especially in this thread and think about AMCA in 10-15 years from the date the check is signed.


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