LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

chola · Post by **chola** » 10 Jul 2017 20:50

Is this LCA thread or the "How to post on the Internet" thread?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jul 2017 21:07

Akshay Kapoor wrote:Glad my misery is giving you joy Admiral ! I dont have paint at work and cant download (admin access etc) so no way of converting screenshot into jpeg. Stumbled upon ppt route and tried that which is whats on blogger.

Sir, I am laughing because I am in the same boat as you

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2017 21:07

chola wrote:Is this LCA thread or the "How to post on the Internet" thread?

When admins don't have problem what is your problem.

Akshay Kapoor is being helped.

Will later put it in FAQ thread.

chola · Post by **chola** » 10 Jul 2017 21:10

No prob, Saar! Just wondering if I am lost

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Jul 2017 21:14

ramana wrote:Will later put it in FAQ thread.

Thanks Ramanaji. I need to learn that myself. looking forward to that FAQ.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Jul 2017 22:51

As Jha says, time to focus on amca now. ADA has done it's bit with the lca. Let Hal take up production and further iterative development of tejas..... Time to move on....

Use the single engine Mii program to setup another manufacturer/integrator in competition to Hal sand let the two fight it out for the AMCA.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 10 Jul 2017 23:01

srai wrote:
Rakesh wrote: The only way to teach the unions at HAL a lesson is a private firm - Tata or Adani or whoever else - needs to make foreign fighters on Indian soil for the Indian Air Force. Steal orders from them and everything else will fall in line after that.
Not sure how much that will help shape up HAL and other DPSUs. IMO, below is an approach that has a better chance of fostering desired change.

x-cross posting
Austin wrote:Hectic moves within the defence ministry suggest the Modi government is working to end one of the government's last monopolies - ordnance factories.

Repainting the white elephant - Sandeep Unnithan

...

Actually I don't think the two perspectives have to be mutually exclusive. Once SEF goes through, more than likely Hal will face some kind of privatization play...

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Jul 2017 00:00

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-439175/

Rafael has completed the integration of its I-Derby beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile on India’s Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft, with a first test firing scheduled for the end of this year.

Yossi Horowitz, director of marketing and business development at the Israeli company’s air superiority systems division, says the I-Derby will become the Tejas fighter’s main air-to-air weapon following the completion of testing. India could also later equip its single-engined aircraft with Rafael’s latest extended-range (ER) version of the missile, he adds.

According to Rafael, the I-Derby ER has a range of up to 54nm (100km), with the weapon also carrying a new radar seeker. The missile can be deployed from a fighter’s rail launchers, or by using a “shove” pyrotechnic charge that jettisons it from a fuselage stores station before its rocket motor ignites.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2017 00:05

JayS, This is great news. BVR will be done.

If only we hear about Python 5 integration success.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Jul 2017 00:08

Yes. I was also wondering about Python integration. I think its just matter of time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jul 2017 00:09

Fantastic news JayS. Thank you so much Saar for posting this!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 11 Jul 2017 00:20

so, the current version being tested is NOT the extended range version as was suggested but the earlier Twitter report. Still very good news.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2017 00:24

Python 5 has some leeway because LCA carries R-73E which though its seeker is no longer state of the art, is still modern enough to be the frontline missile for most Russian and Indian, Malaysian, Algerian etc purchases.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 11 Jul 2017 00:26

And this:

Meanwhile, Rafael is also preparing to offer its Spike ER air-to-surface missile to meet an Indian requirement for helicopter-launched weapons. A previous tender failed to advance after potential bidders were unable to match New Delhi’s requested technical specifications. Rafael will offer the 4.3nm-range Spike ER in combination with a new launcher.

Looks like foreign vendors could not match HELINA specs either.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2017 00:41

Karan M wrote:And this:

Meanwhile, Rafael is also preparing to offer its Spike ER air-to-surface missile to meet an Indian requirement for helicopter-launched weapons. A previous tender failed to advance after potential bidders were unable to match New Delhi’s requested technical specifications. Rafael will offer the 4.3nm-range Spike ER in combination with a new launcher.

Looks like foreign vendors could not match HELINA specs either.

So how did New Deli come up with these unmatchable technical specifications?

Anyone at Headquarters going to see what happened there?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2017 01:05

JayS wrote:Yes. I was also wondering about Python integration. I think its just matter of time.

Wiki on Python 5:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile)

Considering the Derby which is a bigger derivative of the Python was already successfully flown form LCA, it could be a pylon/location issue.

Its much better weapon than the R 73.

Wiki says ~100 Python 5 were purchased by India since 2007. Which planes are they being used on?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Jul 2017 05:19

SH of Navy

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jul 2017 06:14

^^^

The IN doesn't have them.

Spyder SAM system uses Derby and Python-5. Same missile for both AAM and SAM. Some 4 to 9 squadrons are being inducted.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Jul 2017 09:54

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:Yes. I was also wondering about Python integration. I think its just matter of time.
Wiki on Python 5:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile)

Considering the Derby which is a bigger derivative of the Python was already successfully flown form LCA, it could be a pylon/location issue.

Its much better weapon than the R 73.

It was fluttering of the missile, most probably due to nature of airflow on LCA or may be due to interference from neighbouring stores. I suppose it could be fixed by either tweaking the missile holding mechanism or by slightly changing position of missile wrt the pylon i.e. moving it slightly ahead or backward. But this is all shooting in dark only. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Jul 2017 10:06

ramana wrote:
Karan M wrote:And this:

Meanwhile, Rafael is also preparing to offer its Spike ER air-to-surface missile to meet an Indian requirement for helicopter-launched weapons. A previous tender failed to advance after potential bidders were unable to match New Delhi’s requested technical specifications. Rafael will offer the 4.3nm-range Spike ER in combination with a new launcher.

Looks like foreign vendors could not match HELINA specs either.
So how did New Deli come up with these unmatchable technical specifications?

Anyone at Headquarters going to see what happened there?

Anyone can come up with uber specs which no one can match. Even I could do that I suppose. We all know how to do that in Excel sheet using "max" function.

Coming up with balanced realistic specs is the real skills. I do not want to discredit or make fun of anyone. But time and again our forces come up with specs which are unmatched not only by desi entities, but even the best of the best in the world, even for simple things such as BPJs or small arms. It points to a systematic problem. Having some equipment is definitely better than having none. Search of best of the best of the best keeps our forces deprived of even good stuff.

Unkil has a separate university fully dedicated to Defence procurement studies encompassing the technical, administrative and economic aspects of procurement system. Its called "Defence Acquisition University".

https://www.dau.mil/

We need similar thing in India. I hope this will be constituted under the Indian National Defence University (BTW whats happening with NDU, not much is in news. Looks like things are going too slow on this). For starters may be we can send some of our folks (from AF, MoD and DRDO/PSU) to DAU for training. Anyways lot of our AF officers go for education in foreign defence colleges. Given our bonhomie with Unkil, we should be able to get a few seats there.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 11 Jul 2017 10:32

JayS wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-439175/

Rafael has completed the integration of its I-Derby beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile on India’s Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft, with a first test firing scheduled for the end of this year.

Yossi Horowitz, director of marketing and business development at the Israeli company’s air superiority systems division, says the I-Derby will become the Tejas fighter’s main air-to-air weapon following the completion of testing. India could also later equip its single-engined aircraft with Rafael’s latest extended-range (ER) version of the missile, he adds.

According to Rafael, the I-Derby ER has a range of up to 54nm (100km), with the weapon also carrying a new radar seeker. The missile can be deployed from a fighter’s rail launchers, or by using a “shove” pyrotechnic charge that jettisons it from a fuselage stores station before its rocket motor ignites.

I'm confused. Wasn't the missile test-fired recently? (plus guided by Radar means integration is complete and successful).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Jul 2017 10:48

The aabove is firing of Derby from Central Pylons, what is talked about is carrying Python 5 in Outboard Pylons

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 11 Jul 2017 10:55

Aditya_V wrote:The aabove is firing of Derby from Central Pylons, what is talked about is carrying Python 5 in Outboard Pylons

Thanks AV -- The quoted post talks about Derby integration and test firing at the end of the year. My point was that it was already tested. I didn't know that integration differs from pylon to pylon (typically release and separation tests are conducted to test release and aero characteristics), but truly didn't know about pylon specific tests!

I noticed the subsequent posts talked of Python, but that is not really what I was focusing on.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jul 2017 11:33

Hasn't Derby been with us for aeons,SH's? I've asked umpteen no. of times,has the gun-firing tests for the LCA been completed? Most crucial of weapon tests becos of vibration which could affect internal eqpt.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jul 2017 11:44

Marten wrote:
JayS wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-439175/
I'm confused. Wasn't the missile test-fired recently? (plus guided by Radar means integration is complete and successful).

So far two Derby test firings have been done on the LCA. Will require a few more to be cleared for all required envelope carriage and launch profiles.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 11 Jul 2017 11:53

Cain Marko wrote:As Jha says, time to focus on amca now. ADA has done it's bit with the lca. Let Hal take up production and further iterative development of tejas..... Time to move on....

Use the single engine Mii program to setup another manufacturer/integrator in competition to Hal sand let the two fight it out for the AMCA.

Mk2 is still being worked upon.
If ADA has enough bench strength to work on both mk2 and AMCA, all the power to them !

srin · Post by **srin** » 11 Jul 2017 11:58

Cain Marko wrote:As Jha says, time to focus on amca now. ADA has done it's bit with the lca. Let Hal take up production and further iterative development of tejas..... Time to move on....

Use the single engine Mii program to setup another manufacturer/integrator in competition to Hal sand let the two fight it out for the AMCA.

+100 saar.
Agree. Time to focus on AMCA. And mk1 might only be slightly stealthy, but if we can get it to prdn by 2025, it'd be awesome.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 11 Jul 2017 12:06

Philip wrote:Hasn't Derby been with us for aeons,SH's? I've asked umpteen no. of times,has the gun-firing tests for the LCA been completed? Most crucial of weapon tests becos of vibration which could affect internal eqpt.

You don't read answers, do you Philip saar?

Marten wrote:
Philip wrote:ASked before.Has the LCA passed its gun firing trials?
Clicky for insider info

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jul 2017 12:15

Marten wrote:
Philip wrote:Hasn't Derby been with us for aeons,SH's? I've asked umpteen no. of times,has the gun-firing tests for the LCA been completed? Most crucial of weapon tests becos of vibration which could affect internal eqpt.
You don't read answers, do you Philip saar?
Marten wrote: Clicky for insider info

New info on Tejas - LCA FB page:

3 July at 06:37 Oscar Zulu:
When will Lsp-7 commence airborne firing trials?

3 July at 09:00 Tejas - LCA:
Once the ground trIals finish in a month's time, sir.

So sometime in August!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Jul 2017 12:22

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 12:11 PM - 11 Jul 2017

@DRDO_India's ADA isn't really working on the LCA Mk-2 anymore. The project is essentially at an end.

The Tejas LCA programme is a fully HAL programme now. While ADA has kept a brave face on LCA Navy, that programme too is in jeopardy.

ADA as such doesn't have much to do in the moment despite what you hear. It is expecting serious movement on the AMCA & Ghatak UCAV fronts.

so LCA Mk2 has gone the HF-73 way

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 11 Jul 2017 12:26

Srai sir,
Relying on the dates from the FB page as 'insider information' might end up being a cause for heartburn.

When the above information was posted, when asked about FOC, it was mentioned FOC will be achieved within the announced dates.

From open source,FOC was slated for June 17.

Inside information in this case is what Dileep Saar is bringing wrt aerial refueling issues holding back FOC and the possible time needed to achieve FOC.

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Jul 2017 12:49

Kakarat wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 12:11 PM - 11 Jul 2017

@DRDO_India's ADA isn't really working on the LCA Mk-2 anymore. The project is essentially at an end.

The Tejas LCA programme is a fully HAL programme now. While ADA has kept a brave face on LCA Navy, that programme too is in jeopardy.

ADA as such doesn't have much to do in the moment despite what you hear. It is expecting serious movement on the AMCA & Ghatak UCAV fronts.
so LCA Mk2 has gone the HF-73 way

Given that this is S.Jha and his general reach of chaiwallahs, have to say worst fears are coming true in slow motion

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Jul 2017 12:55

^^^
That's two confirmations: Dileep and SJha. Probably will be reflected in ADA annual report 2017-18. We can look at expenditures and other progress to determine what happened this fiscal year.

Mk.2 was always going to be post 2025 (closer to 2030) and maybe that is why the users lost interest in it. It was more of an IN requirement in any case. Hopefully more Mk.1A/+ are inducted post 2025 once the current production run ends. Remains to be seen if the program ends at 123 units.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 11 Jul 2017 13:10

Means the whole thing is contingent on achieving the weight reduction.
But like someone had posted earlier, they are quite positive and confident on achieving the 800 kgs reduction.

If the engine for AMCA is chosen to be the F414, the ones sitting with HAL will be used for TD 1.

One very important thing while discussing the mk2.
It was primarily intended to fix speed and range shortfalls in mk1 because of it being overweight by a ton.

If the 800 kgs reduction is achieved, and the added advantage of the AESA + spj and aerial refueling, it makes the need for mk2 redundant to a large extent.

For the moment, all energies of ADA should be focused on getting rid of those 800 kgs and ensuring timely testing + delivery of Mk1A.

AMCA can wait a while.
Mk1A cannot.

SJha did tweet about the 20 FOC being converted into a Mk1A order earlier.
If that's the case there might be a small gap in production for a while till Mk1A is ready and the last of IOC aircraft delivered.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Jul 2017 13:28

Marten wrote:
JayS wrote:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-439175/
I'm confused. Wasn't the missile test-fired recently? (plus guided by Radar means integration is complete and successful).

As per my understanding, That was vanilla Derby, which we have had already. This is I-Derby which is Derby with improved seeker, which we perhaps just now bought. Next is I-Derby ER which is extended range.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 11 Jul 2017 13:46

Thank you JayS.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jul 2017 14:35

From Saurav Jha tweets we are seeing a slow demise of Tejas right in front of our own eyes !

Now let them order more single engine fighter and do screwdriver giri and TOT that would certainly help in building indiginous aviation industry and learn how to fix problem they would face in such program.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 11 Jul 2017 14:39

An order of 123 jets with possibility for more orders once IAF operates a few squadrons of Mk1A is hardly a slow demise of LCA.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 11 Jul 2017 14:45

My thoughts based on some of my interactions with a couple of experienced ex-scientists:

1. It will be hard to transition from current LCA (even Mk.1A) to AMCA. Better to do incremental upgrades and test it on a relatively known platform like LCA. So Mk.2 development has to continue.

2. Mk.2 program has to continue for the sake of technology progress if not for induction purpose. Since the chances of Mk.2 having a future with IAF/IN is doubtful, ADA can propose much more ambitious upgrade points including introducing VLO features. If Mk.2 can achieve required test points lets say by 2025, development of AMCA will be easier IMHO.

3. AMCA has to be a national project...a lot more expanded in scope compared to LCA. And mostly importantly, the labs must have greater autonomy.

4. For Mk.2 & AMCA, copious funds for infra improvement/acquisition and for resources should be made available.

5. Of course, IAF & IN should be involved in working with ADA right from conception stage. Any changes in ASR mid-way should be addressed by including those capabilities in further tranches rather than having all the bells & whistles right in the first batch.

6. Let IAF induct Mk.1 & Mk.1A per current agreed numbers.

7. Also from single-engined fighter, hopefully another private player will enter in to Indian aerospace eco-system and by 2030 or so, they should be in a position to take up AMCA manufacturing in addition to HAL if required. That means that said private entity to actually encourage research on required manufacturing processes/machinery required on future aircrafts like 5th gen rather than be contented with manufacturing to blue-prints of F-16/Gripen.

8. Lastly, let ADA propose a realistic time line (+- 3 years) for AMCA but when it is ready for induction, it should be a contemporary product which can satisfy IAF/IN ASRs. So even if it means AMCA will be ready 2035...so be it.

Of course, some of the above presumes that India has the capability to provide adequate funding for FGFA/F-16 purchases along with indigenous aircraft programs.

SajeevJino · Post by **SajeevJino** » 11 Jul 2017 15:14

ramana wrote:
JayS wrote:Yes. I was also wondering about Python integration. I think its just matter of time.
Wiki on Python 5:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Python_(missile)

Considering the Derby which is a bigger derivative of the Python was already successfully flown form LCA, it could be a pylon/location issue.

Its much better weapon than the R 73.

Wiki says ~100 Python 5 were purchased by India since 2007. Which planes are they being used on?

It was the IN's Harrier fleet once used the Pythons