VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

[JayS]

Setting aside motivated part for the time being, GoI lost a second chance to make L1 and L2 compete for the reduce order of 36 units. First, they didn't do it for 126 units and then for the reduced order.

In any case, the deal is already done.

There was quite an effort made in 2015-16 by Germany/GB. What makes one think GOI didn't even listen to them..?

Second, when its G2G, there is no meaning to L1 and L1.

Third, the intangible strategic reasoning doesn't show up in such comparisons - namely N-delivery. French are known to be mendable on this one factor. In my opinion this was one big reason for Rafale being considered with no uncertainty in GOI/IAF's mind.

Forth, as per DPP, you cannot negotiate with L2 and L1 at the same time. IN fact the whole reason why MMRCA was scrapped, if you read Nitin Gokhale's article, was because Dassualt didn't put all costs upfront and considering the factor that HAL wanted for no of man-hours for MII 108 jets, Dassault was becoming L2 while EF would have been L1. Once their is this confusion, the tender was all set for cancellation. Because in MP's words, this was going against guidelines given by CVC. Another nail in the coffin was Dassault refused to stand by their contractual obligation of taking responsibility of MII jets, which they agreed while submitting bids, but later reneged. Dassault is as much responsible for fall out of the deal as anyone else.

Just saw Nitin Gokhale's tweet. He says exactly what I was saying about talking to L1 and L2 both.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 7122720768

In the contrived controversy over the Rafale deal, every one is forgetting that under the DPP, MoD cannot negotiate with L-2 vendor even if L-1 was found to be non-complaint. The contract has to be scrapped and the process has to begin anew. Digest that

[srai]

^^^
DPP is just stupid is all I can say.

[JTull]

Seems to me someone is paying Congress to raise this issue. Could be Brits or could be their communist brethren up north.

[Chinmay]

CT Alert: Someone got a whiff that more Rafales were going to be ordered instead of SE fighter and TE fighter so trying to put a spanner in the works

[Rakesh]

Congress is talking about unit cost of the Eurofighter being cheaper, based on that letter. What about the base infrastructure, simulators, spares, weaponry, etc? Talking nonsense.

[A Deshmukh]

Eurofighter had bid and was not L1. Period. that too when Congress was in Govt.
No validity in the claim that it would have been cheaper.
They were given the opportunity. they put in a bid pricier than Rafale.

Tomorrow Mig will come in and say I will give you a plane at $20M. and then another...never ending.

[VKumar]

One squadron of Rafale per year in the next decade may be affordable and certainly will strengthen IAF tremendously. By which time AMCA may be available.

[Cosmo_R]

And if he is left unchallenged, he will ruin it."

It is a family tradition...

[Rakesh]

Who wants to volunteer? Single point of contact. Write something - no emotions - and send it to him. If folks want to volunteer, feel free to contact me. My email is in my profile.

The Modi App --> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7048

[SiddharthS]

Good article by Ajai Shukla on Reddif. Lot of questions asked here are covered in detail by Shukla in his blog.

Rafale deal faces turbulent weather: Part 1
Part 2: How much did the Rafale actually cost?
Part 3: From light fighter to nuclear delivery platform: Long road to the Rafale

[Cybaru]

Those numbers seem very reasonable for what it brings to the table. Another 60-90 would be nice and end of any other SEF/DEF circus..

[eklavya]

Good article by Ajai Shukla

The guy is a well-known moron and biddable.

[Karan M]

He seems to have a clear agenda to discredit the Rafale deal and imply the PM unduly favored the Reliance group.

[eklavya]

Seems to me someone is paying Congress to raise this issue.

The issue is that someone did not pay the Congress.

[deejay]

Good article by Ajai Shukla on Reddif. Lot of questions asked here are covered in detail by Shukla in his blog.

Rafale deal faces turbulent weather: Part 1
Part 2: How much did the Rafale actually cost?
Part 3: From light fighter to nuclear delivery platform: Long road to the Rafale

Actually, this thread here and its previous avatars are the most exhaustive source for understanding the Rafale deal. Yes, it will need patience and a lot of reading to digest all of that.

[eklavya]

He seems to have a clear agenda to discredit the Rafale deal and imply the PM unduly favored the Reliance group.

Shukla has no credibility and no integrity.

[Kashi]

He seems to have a clear agenda to discredit the Rafale deal and imply the PM unduly favored the Reliance group.

His agenda is to discredit the PM driven bu his personal hatred for the man, Rafale happens to be the means that he's chosen to employ this time.

If it were not Rafale, it would have been something else. Do recall how reacted after the surgical strikes.

[ArjunPandit]

He seems to have a clear agenda to discredit the Rafale deal and imply the PM unduly favored the Reliance group.

His agenda is to discredit the PM driven bu his personal hatred for the man, Rafale happens to be the means that he's chosen to employ this time.

If it were not Rafale, it would have been something else. Do recall how reacted after the surgical strikes.

Add to it the boat incident off the gujarat coast that was acted upon by CG on a tipoff

[Rakesh]

While the MoD dilly dallies on a follow on Rafale order, Qatar and Egypt are ordering additional birds.

Order another 36 Rafales, get a MROU facility at Mihan and India could service Qatari Rafales as well.

Egypt takes delivery of additional Rafales; looks to acquire more
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?o ... &Itemid=30

Qatar adds a dozen more Rafales to order
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... er-443973/

[brar_w]

Order another 36 Rafales, get a MROU facility at Mihan and India could service Qatari Rafales as well

The way ME nations buy fighters (akin to Emirates and Qatar airways buying widebodies) HAL should fancy them also picking up 3 dozen LCAs while they are at it

[Rakesh]

With Qatar you never know. Order 36 Mk1As as LIFT type aircraft. Will serve them well.

Payment for servicing their Qatari Rafales And Snecma can cash in as well, if and when Snecma can get Kaveri88 to work.

[Karan M]

What's pathetic is these AFs which see no real threat bar saber rattling 9/10 and are airshow onlee for most purposes are picking up Rafales like cotton candy. We are dithering and throwing files at each other. Depressing.
The local EW pod for Su-30 and Astra procurement better pick up. The Su-30s are going to be our frontline for a long time at this rate.

[ArjunPandit]

:D With Qatar you never know. Order 36 Mk1As as LIFT type aircraft. Will serve them well.

Payment for servicing their Qatari Rafales And Snecma can cash in as well, if and when Snecma can get Kaveri88 to work.

with ummah u never know..they might end up with pakis or their secrets

[Cybaru]

:D With Qatar you never know. Order 36 Mk1As as LIFT type aircraft. Will serve them well.

Payment for servicing their Qatari Rafales And Snecma can cash in as well, if and when Snecma can get Kaveri88 to work.

with ummah u never know..they might end up with pakis or their secrets

No one is calling failed state to send pilots when frenchies are available. You think they would pay 200 million and hire any less then ex-FAF pilots?

[ArjunPandit]

with ummah u never know..they might end up with pakis or their secrets

No one is calling failed state to send pilots when frenchies are available. You think they would pay 200 million and hire any less then ex-FAF pilots?

my bad i meant that for LCA and not for rafale

[viveks]

God willing...there will be more orders from our side as well.

[Rakesh]

ArjunPandit: The ummah days are done. The ME countries realise the failed state that Pakistan is. No point in investing in any serious relationship anymore. The ME countries throw the Paks a bone every now and then....when they come begging. But ME nations realize they are better off with India.

[Kartik]

Maybe the IAF should look at buying the Qatar Emiri Air Force's 12 Mirage-2000-5s now that they're going to have their hands full with Rafales and F-15QAs entering service in the next few years. Dassault is apparently close to a handover ceremony for the first Qatari Rafales. Those Mirage-2000-5s could finally bring the No.9 Wolfpack squadron to its full strength. Sign a contract with Dassault to bring them to a similar standard as the IAF's Mirage-2000I or keep them as a one-off variant. Commonality between the types for most spares must be very high as it is.

With only 12 Mirages, the QEAF must not have more than 20-24 pilots, given an average jet to pilot ratio of 1.5. Some of them would've already gone to France for conversion to the Rafale and now, some of the existing QEAF Mirage-2000 pilots are being ear-marked for Typhoon conversion, even before that contract has been signed, which is not too far away. They won't be needing those Mirages soon enough and a good faith offer from India may well be considered.

[Rakesh]

+108. Well Said Kartik.

In fact, there is a number of platforms that that both India and Qatar have overlap with;

- Both operate C-17s (just wondering....why does Qatar need 8?)
- Both operate Mirage 2000s
- Both will operate Rafales
- Both operate Pilatus trainers (India with the PC-7 and Qatar with the PC-21)
- Both will operate Apache helos (AH-64E variant)
- Both operate Sea Kings

Plently of opportunities for cross training, maintenance, etc.

[Rakesh]

What's pathetic is these AFs which see no real threat bar saber rattling 9/10 and are airshow onlee for most purposes are picking up Rafales like cotton candy. We are dithering and throwing files at each other. Depressing.
The local EW pod for Su-30 and Astra procurement better pick up. The Su-30s are going to be our frontline for a long time at this rate.

Yup, just like the last remaining C-17. Still twiddling our thumbs with that one as well. Depressing is an understatement. Sometimes, I feel like going up to the Babu in charge of acquisitions....and say WAKE UP!!!

[srai]

What's pathetic is these AFs which see no real threat bar saber rattling 9/10 and are airshow onlee for most purposes are picking up Rafales like cotton candy. We are dithering and throwing files at each other. Depressing.
The local EW pod for Su-30 and Astra procurement better pick up. The Su-30s are going to be our frontline for a long time at this rate.

Yup, just like the last remaining C-17. Still twiddling our thumbs with that one as well. Depressing is an understatement. Sometimes, I feel like going up to the Babu in charge of acquisitions....and say WAKE UP!!!

When the initial 10 C-17s were being ordered, Boeing would have indicated to the Indian officials of the impending closing down of the assembly line. That would have been the time to order the entire requirements of C-17, since the contract was for 10 + 6 options. The order itself should have been for 16 C-17. They won't keep lines open for piecemeal orders.

[Kakkaji]

Parrikar says Rafale deal gives India edge over Pakistan, slams Antony for delay

Goa Chief Minister Manohar Parrikar today accused former Defence Minister A K Antony of creating a "logjam" over the Rafale fighter jet deal and asserted that the acquisition of the French aircraft has given India a superiority over Pakistan in terms of air power.

Parrikar said a day before Prime Minister Narendra Modi signed the Rafale jet deal with the French government, he (Parrikar) had addressed a meeting of officials from the Air Force to work out a solution to the "logjam" created by the Congress leader.

"Antony had put strange noting on the file dealing with Rafale purchase. He mentioned on the file 'start discussion, finalise price and after everything is finished please come back to me' with all the documentary evidence of how the Rafale company was the lowest (bidder).

"Now the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) guideline says you can't negotiate with anyone other than the lowest (bidder). The files were going in circles and circles," he said.

Parrikar said for two and a half years the file was "doing rounds in circle, we broke the circle by deciding that we will have to go for different approach".

Referring to the Congress's allegation about the "high price" of Rafale jets, he said "a fighter aircraft is not only an aircraft, the aircraft is probably a smaller part of the total cost. The real cost comes in purchasing special equipment."

The deal covered a particular kind of helmet worn by the pilot, Parrikar said. "... the target is locked by watching at it. It is virtually 360 degrees visibility. Here he (pilot) has to just watch opponent's target and press the button, the computer does the rest. That cost of development of helmet is included in the deal," he said.

The former defence minister said that in 1999, the Indian Air Force succeeded in pushing out its Pakistani counterpart out of the Kargil conflict zone, because India had Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles with a range of 30 km on SU30 and MiG 29 aircrafts.

"Pakistan had only about 20 km range ... due to which they remained away," he said.

However, between 1999 and 2014, Pakistan acquired a capacity of 100 km range whereas India had upgraded its BVR up to 60 km on SU30, he said.

"We were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters staying 100 km away and not being able to retaliate and Rafale deal took care of this with a missile with a range of 150 km fitted on aircraft," Parrikar said.

"An aircraft may cost 90 million euros but other components will cost you 150 million euros because you have to make it fighting-fit," the former union minister said.

"Unfortunately we deal with the purchases of fighters as if we are buying toor dal and mung dal" he said, claiming the Congress leaders "do not know anything" about Defence.

Doesn't look liked Modi kept Parrikar in the dark before suddenly deciding to go for an off-the-shelf purchase of 36 Rafales in his visit to the France. Parrikar was involved all the way in the decision.

[srai]

^^^

...

"Antony had put strange noting on the file dealing with Rafale purchase. He mentioned on the file 'start discussion, finalise price and after everything is finished please come back to me' with all the documentary evidence of how the Rafale company was the lowest (bidder).

"Now the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) guideline says you can't negotiate with anyone other than the lowest (bidder). The files were going in circles and circles," he said.

Parrikar said for two and a half years the file was "doing rounds in circle, we broke the circle by deciding that we will have to go for different approach".

...

That whole L1 concept in MMRCA was a farce. How can one vendor be declared as L1 when commercial negotiations for all the details haven't taken place? In absence of that L1 would only be true if the proposal submitted is the final fixed price offer. Anything else is not an L1 and would only be determined when the entire deal is finalized with vendors; hence, final negotiation should be done with at least the last two vendors selected.

[srai]

...
The deal covered a particular kind of helmet worn by the pilot, Parrikar said. "... the target is locked by watching at it. It is virtually 360 degrees visibility. Here he (pilot) has to just watch opponent's target and press the button, the computer does the rest. That cost of development of helmet is included in the deal," he said.
...

Hey, the LCA Mk.1 already has that

[Karan M]

So:

However, between 1999 and 2014, Pakistan acquired a capacity of 100 km range whereas India had upgraded its BVR up to 60 km on SU30, he said.
"We were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters staying 100 km away and not being able to retaliate and Rafale deal took care of this with a missile with a range of 150 km fitted on aircraft," Parrikar said.

Confirms, present Su-30s are limited to SARH AA-10 and Meteor BVR RMax is 150km and Indian estimate of AMRAAM RMax in PAF is 100km.

[Karan M]

...
The deal covered a particular kind of helmet worn by the pilot, Parrikar said. "... the target is locked by watching at it. It is virtually 360 degrees visibility. Here he (pilot) has to just watch opponent's target and press the button, the computer does the rest. That cost of development of helmet is included in the deal," he said.
...

Hey, the LCA Mk.1 already has that

And people were sneering at Parrikar when he said
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/tejas-a ... er-1627624

"This is a plane which is completely indigenously manufactured and can compete with any other fighter plane in the world. It is as capable as the Rafale. Only this is a light combat aircraft (LCA)," Mr Parrikar said.

"Only a 3.5 ton missile can be carried on it, Rafale on the other hand can carry a nine-ton (missile). This plane can fly at the rate of 450 km, Rafale can run 900 km because it has twin engines," he added.

He means a radius of 450km above..
But these small doodads in Tejas is why Parrikar said Tejas is quite capable.

Of course Rafale has some items Tejas doesn't currently have (EW suite + sensor fusion) but IIRC Mk1A will get these. Sensor fusion was planned for Mk2.

[viveks]

* Unnecessary post. What does this post contribute to overall discussion here? Why refer to another poster? Deleted *

[Austin]

Manohar Parrikar justifies Rafale costs: ‘Aircraft smaller part, real cost in equipment’

Parrikar also criticised the “logjam created” in the Rafale deal under A K Antony, Defence minister in the UPA government, and called the Defence Ministry the “backroom” of foreign diplomacy that “does the actual exercise which needs to be done”.

Speaking at the launch of the book Securing India the Modi Way by Nitin Gokhale, Parrikar identified surgical strikes as “exercises which increase the (country’s) sphere of influence”.

Explaining the price quotient, Parrikar said, “A fighter aircraft is not only (an) aircraft. (The) aircraft is probably smaller part of the total cost — the real cost comes in special equipment. How many of you know that this particular deal (includes) a helmet to be worn by the pilot where a target (gets) locked by just watching the target. It is virtually 360-degree visibility. The pilot doesn’t have to actually check up…. He has to just watch…and press the button. The computer does the rest….”

He said, “Our Rafales will come with this equipment…. That cost of development of helmet is included (in the deal).”

Stating that Indian Air Force was much superior to Pakistan’s during the 1999 Kargil war, Parrikar said, “Between 1999 and 2014, until Narendra Modi came, Pakistan, through various purchases, had acquired a capacity of 100 km range, whereas we had upgraded our BVR (Beyond Visual Range missile) only 60 km on Su 30. So we were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters from 100 km away, and not being able to retaliate. That is also part of the (Rafale) purchase.”

Stating that part of the deal is “servicability at 80 per cent”, he said, “I am explaining this only to make you understand that an aircraft may cost 92 million Euros, but other components will cost you 150 million Euros because you have to make it fighting fit.”

[Austin]

92 Million Euro is for the aircraft , 150 million Euros will be for PBL , Spares Weapons , Infra , training

[Austin]

So:

However, between 1999 and 2014, Pakistan acquired a capacity of 100 km range whereas India had upgraded its BVR up to 60 km on SU30, he said.
"We were now in danger of being shot down by Pakistani fighters staying 100 km away and not being able to retaliate and Rafale deal took care of this with a missile with a range of 150 km fitted on aircraft," Parrikar said.

Confirms, present Su-30s are limited to SARH AA-10 and Meteor BVR RMax is 150km and Indian estimate of AMRAAM RMax in PAF is 100km.

IAF operates both the medium and long range version of R-27 with range of 60 and 130 km and operate plus French BVR on Mirages

BRF own data on R-27 http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... /AAMs/R27/

If Pakistan has AMRAAM C5 for its entire F-16 fleet and operational with range of ~ 100 km then we will need a BVR missile beyond that range not just for Rafale which is still 3 years away from its first induction even if it comes with Meteor but also for Mirages , Mi-29 and Su-30 plus Tejas

An F-16 operational today with 100 Km BVR missile is a potential threat for any IAF aircraft confronting the F-16

Wiki tells me PAF today has 45 F-16 A/C and 31 F-16D , that makes it ~ 75 F-16 are all getting AMRAAM C5 class ?