VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Apr 2018 22:27

X-Post from the Indian Nuclear Submarines thread...

Thales looking at role in India’s nuclear submarine project
https://gulfnews.com/news/asia/india/th ... -1.2209632

When asked about the project to upgrade the IAF’s Mirage 2000 fighter jets, Sourisse said it was moving along “very well”. Thales is a part of the project along with Dassault Aviation. On the Rafale deal, she said it would be a “win-win” proposition for India. Thales will provide equipment and systems that are expected to account for about 25 per cent of the total value of each Rafale. India had inked an inter-governmental agreement with France in September 2016 for the procurement of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of around Rs 58,000 crore.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Apr 2018 22:38

Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd begins assembly of Falcon jet cockpit at MIHAN in Nagpur
https://www.nagpurtoday.in/dassault-rel ... r/04251723

Nagpur: The Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) has started commercial production of Falcon – the business jet made by Dassault Aviation, France – at its unit in Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, MIHAN-SEZ, from April 18. In the first phase, the DRAL is assembling cockpit along with landing gear and other parts. A team of 50 experts including five engineers and 30 local technicians are working in this project. Expansion of the project would provide jobs to many engineers. The unit set up at the MIHAN SEZ in Nagpur is part of Reliance Aerospace Park which is coming up on in an area of 106 acres. At this Park, the DRAL project is on 56 acre land. In the beginning, production of Falcon jet cockpit and spare parts has commenced. The set up of machinery and actual work was done under the leadership of DRAL’s Chief Executive Officer Sampatkumar and Chief Operating Officer Robert Loock within 60 days. Both these officers were camping in city since September 2107. A workshop for providing hi-tech training for new recruits has been set up. At the outset, five engineers were given six-month training in Dassault Aviation Company in France and the 30 local technicians were trained at a special training centre in Kamptee. The production of entire Falcon business jet will be done in three years and that of Rafale fighter jet in five years at Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park. India is purchasing 36 Rafale fighter jets worth Rs 60,000 crore.

As the offset obligation connected to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighters from France, signed between the two Governments in September 2016, Dassault Aviation has to invest 50 percent of the cost in India. Under this obligation, the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd has commenced the project at MIHAN SEZ. The DRAL has imported machinery from France for manufacture of spare parts. The machinery reached Nagpur in containers from France via Chennai. DRAL will manufacture components for the Legacy Falcon 2000 Series of Civil Jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation and thus will become part of its Global Supply Chain. These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years, the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft. The Joint Venture also represents a unequalled Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) by Dassault Aviation of over 100 Million Euros, the largest such Defence FDI in one location in India. The DRAL facility will train thousands of skilled workers in aviation assembly and integration, and lead to huge employment generation in Nagpur and its surrounding areas. It will also attract and house an organic ecosystem of over 200 MSMEs to secure the component and avionics manufacturing needs of Rafale and Falcon Jets.

Image

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20830
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 28 May 2018 05:13

Showing Snig Skin and Chin
Image


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Jun 2018 20:45

^^^^ Video of the above link. Beautiful!

https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/1003922265057177600 ---> “There is no scandal in #Rafale, we are very clear on that,” Defence Minister Sitharaman.


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 11:18

CAG report on Rafale deal near completion’

“Yes, an audit of the Rafale fighter aircraft deal is on and is nearing completion.

New Delhi: The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) had undertaken an audit of the Rafale fighter deal and the report will be ready in a short time, a highly-placed source familiar with the country’s national auditing mechanism, has told this newspaper.

“Yes, an audit of the Rafale fighter aircraft deal is on and is nearing completion. After that it will be tabled in parliament,” the source said.

“Such big ticket defence deals are undertaken for audit by CAG on a ‘routine’ basis,” the source said while underscoring the point that defence audits should get priority due to the high value transactions involved.

There is an urgent need to acquire fighter jets for the Indian Air Force in the backdrop of a depleted fleet of 31 squadrons which is much less than the required 45 fighter squadrons which is what India needs in case of a possible two-front war scenario.

A squadron comprises about 16-18 fighters. On Tuesday, Defence Minister Sitharaman, dispelling all allegations of wrongdoing in the deal called them “politically motivated”.

“I am assuring you in the company of all the senior officials that yes there is no scandal in Rafale. We are very clear about that,” she said replying to a question on allegations of a scam in the Rafale deal.

The minister, addressing a press conference along with top officials of the defence ministry on the occasion of the fourth anniversary of the NDA government, said that “false comparisons” were made between the price at which India was procuring the jets and the price being negotiated by some other countries.

India had signed a government-to-government agreement with France in September 2016 for buying 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of around Rs 58,000 crore. The first consignment of the jets is expected in September 2019.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15358
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 08 Jun 2018 12:07

^^ The CAG IIRC was the previous admins defense secretary. This does not bode well for the current admin, which is as savvy about such matters as a headless chicken, judging by the dogs breakfast the CAG report on the LCA was and yet it was not even countered by the MOD or ADA.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 17:07

Karan M wrote:^^ The CAG IIRC was the previous admins defense secretary. This does not bode well for the current admin, which is as savvy about such matters as a headless chicken, judging by the dogs breakfast the CAG report on the LCA was and yet it was not even countered by the MOD or ADA.


As an independent constitutional body , CAG Audit report is available for all to see and discuss.

Why do you assume there would be any wrong doing in this deal in the first place , for all you know this would put to rest any doubts of any scam in this deal , the MOD is confidently saying this.

dinesha
BRFite
Posts: 1046
Joined: 01 Aug 2004 11:42
Location: Delhi

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby dinesha » 12 Jun 2018 19:34

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/ ... -2019.html
Rafale delivery will commence in September 2019 Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa

In April, the Indian Air Force carried out the largest war games in the last three decades by bringing together more than 1,100 aircraft. The exercise, named Gagan Shakti, was used to test the IAF’s combat readiness for a short and intense war. It boosted the confidence of the Air Force, especially with regard to fighting a two-front war. At the biannual meeting of top IAF commanders held on May 31, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman praised the force for carrying out such a major exercise without any glitches. She said the focus of the exercise was to draw lessons for evolving the doctrinal loop of the IAF.

If all the inductions take place as planned, the IAF is expected to achieve its authorised strength of fighter squadrons by the end of the 15th Plan (2032).
The man who was in charge of the exercise was Air Chief Marshal B.S. Dhanoa. In an exclusive interview with THE WEEK, he said the exercise demonstrated the IAF’s capability to achieve and sustain a very high serviceability of aircraft and systems. Dhanoa, however, expressed concern about the depleting combat strength of the IAF, and said the force would reach its desired strength only by 2032. At present, the IAF has 31 fighter squadrons, but it needs at least 42 to fight a two-front war. In comparison, Pakistan has 25 combat squadrons, while China has 60.

Dhanoa defended the Rafale deal by saying that there was “no overpricing” and that the government negotiated a very good deal. He said the delivery of the Rafale jets was progressing as planned and they were expected to be inducted into the IAF between 2019 and 2022.

Excerpts:

How was the IAF’s experience with Gagan Shakti?

It was one of the largest exercises conducted by the IAF, considering the scale of asset utilisation and manpower participation. The IAF has achieved more than its laid-down objectives for the exercise. The aim was to test our real time coordination, deployment and employment of air power in a short and intense battle scenario. The logistic stamina, operational logistics, supply chain management, op readiness and prolonged sustenance of high tempo operations were put to test.

What are the lessons learnt from the exercise?

The IAF demonstrated its capability to achieve and sustain a very high serviceability of aircraft and systems. During the exercise, the IAF carried out missions across all spectrums of flying operations. We carried out the exercise in close coordination with the Army and the Navy. The capability to conduct special operations by transport and helicopter fleets like large-scale para drop, inter-valley troop transfer, and the utilisation of advanced landing grounds were practiced towards the delivery of combat power, in the shortest possible time. The IAF also demonstrated the enhanced reach of combat platforms in the maritime domain, while operating from bases in southern India. We have learnt valuable lessons in these spheres and there have been many takeaways from this exercise that will be incorporated on priority.

Has the report of the umpires nominated to judge the exercise been finalised?

Critical analysis of the exercise is underway to highlight the areas of concern and to suggest measures to improve our combat potential. The improvement of operational efficiency is an ongoing process. This exercise has brought out many important aspects of operations, which would help hone the combat potential of the IAF further.

How do you react to the dwindling combat squadrons of the IAF?

The IAF is the guardian of the Indian skies. We are ready 24x7 to respond to any hostile situation, with our available resources. As far as the drawdown in the strength of the fighter squadrons is concerned, it is being given due emphasis. We are upgrading MiG-29, Jaguar and Mirage-2000 aircraft in a phased manner, as part of obsolescence management. The induction of 36 Rafale aircraft will commence by September 2019, and will significantly enhance our operational capability. The induction of the remaining Su-30 MKI aircraft [of the total 272] from Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will be completed by 2020. The induction of the 40 indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas is also ongoing. Additionally, the RFP (Request for Proposal) for the procurement of 83 LCA Mk1A was issued last December.

When is the IAF expected to achieve its required combat strength?

The next step would be the design and development of the LCA Mk2 which has been renamed as medium weight fighter (MWF). Further, RFI (Request for Information) for 110 new fighters has been issued on April 6, 2018. If all the inductions take place as planned, the IAF is expected to achieve its authorised strength of fighter squadrons by the end of the 15th Plan (2032).

Do you expect timely delivery of the Rafale jets?

All activities related to the induction of the 36 Rafale aircraft are progressing as planned. The delivery will commence in September 2019, and will be complete by April 2022.

Is the IAF prepared for a two-front war?

The IAF is capable of meeting every challenge that our country is likely to face.


Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15358
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 12 Jun 2018 22:54

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:^^ The CAG IIRC was the previous admins defense secretary. This does not bode well for the current admin, which is as savvy about such matters as a headless chicken, judging by the dogs breakfast the CAG report on the LCA was and yet it was not even countered by the MOD or ADA.


As an independent constitutional body , CAG Audit report is available for all to see and discuss.

Why do you assume there would be any wrong doing in this deal in the first place , for all you know this would put to rest any doubts of any scam in this deal , the MOD is confidently saying this.


I already posted why, and you are asking why? Suffice to say in the run up to 2019, the Rafale deal is a useful weapon and the Modi led GOI has constantly shown itself to be clueless when it comes to handling the ecosystem ranged against it. Even if there were no illegalities commited, the CAG muddying up the topic with its usual beancountimg gyan is still useful for the admins opponents. The Tejas report was a perfect example with half baked assertions galore. Lets agree to disagree as it is anyhow OT.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 12 Jun 2018 23:31

DELETED - OT
Last edited by JayS on 13 Jun 2018 11:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: jayS - Stick to the topic

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9692
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Jun 2018 10:51

DELETED - OT
Last edited by JayS on 13 Jun 2018 11:10, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: jayS - Stick to the topic

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21769
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 24 Jun 2018 13:28

Rafale - RAF Cosford Air Show 2018


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 03:01

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/10 ... 35616?s=21 —> Quick French response to Rahul Gandhi allegation on secrecy behind Rafale price: "When an agreement is very sensitive, we can not reveal all the details," foreign ministry says.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 03:05

https://twitter.com/pmoindia/status/102 ... 11264?s=21 —> Due to one careless allegation in the House on Rafale, both nations had to release statements: PM Narendra Modi.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 03:11

https://twitter.com/bjp4india/status/10 ... 91072?s=21 —> Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman busts Rahul Gandhi’s lies on Rafale deal in Parliament. The agreement of secrecy with France was signed on 25th January 2008 by then Defence Minister of UPA government A.K. Antony.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 04:35

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3273794560 ---> 1. Rafale is a `scam' because of the inability of govt leaders to lucidly argue, point by point, WHY Rafale was NOT a scam. This is because defence deals are not run of the mill political fodder. The Cong asks the same questions. The BJP provides elementary answers.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 4631653376 ---> 2. @Iyervval's look at the Rafale deal is, to my mind, the clearest explanation of a complex technical-economic subject. Both the Congress and the BJP would be wise to read this to raise their level of discourse on this subject. (My Note: Article has been reproduced in the post below this one).

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 7420898304 ---> 3. Without repeating much of what @Iyervval has written, let me try and make a few basic points. Firstly, The Rafales the UPA wanted and could NEVER contract are NOT the same Rafales that the Indian Air Force are now going to get.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 9987795974 ---> 4. Lets make it even simpler - If the UPA was negotiating for a Maruti Suzuki Swift LXi, this government has contracted for a Maruti Suzuki Swift ZXi. The latter comes with several more features. This makes it more expensive.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 2630215682 ---> 5. Why the hell is such an expensive defence deal hidden under a confidentiality pact? Answer - This jet comes with a bunch of stuff onboard that the Indian Air Force wants but no one else has so far. The French DON'T WANT to reveal the cost of developing these systems.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 5264230402 ---> 6. Why don't the French want to reveal the cost of these systems? Answer - Because, in the future, French manufacturers want to sell these systems to other countries at a profit. The bargaining position of these companies gets hit if the price they sold these to India is known.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 7986350082 ---> 7. So what on earth are these super-secret sub-systems that have jacked up the cost of the Rafale deal ? Answer- They are referred to as INDIA-SPECIFIC UPGRADES, and cost about 1.7 BILLION EUROS, if memory serves me correct. What do they do? Read on...

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 0901366784 ---> 8. The India specific upgrades include a Low band jammer, a towed array decoy system, additional modes and greater resolution in the main radar and the Front Sector Optronics System of the jet.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3822545922 ---> 9. "This is all jargon for me.'' Answer - In the simplest terms, these systems enable the IAF Rafale to detect, jam and confuse Pak and Chinese missiles fired at it from the ground, while enabling it to hit targets in the air and on the ground from very long distances.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 6464957440 ---> 10. Is this stuff all really worth it? Answer - The Rafale, as configured for India, is more advanced than what the French Air Force operates and is pretty much the gold standard for an aircraft of its size and class.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Jul 2018 04:49

An absolute, must-read article on the Rafale deal. Kudos to the author. Well written.

View: The plane truth about Rafale deal is so hard to see?
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/op ... 937909.cms

By Abhijit Iyer-Mitra - The writer is senior fellow, Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies, New Delhi

Much of the recent Rafale controversy seems to hinge around three things: price, propriety and workshare. On price, two questions arise: one, about a significant escalation in the final agreed price; two, about GoI’s claim that this final price saved the taxpayer quite some money. On the propriety front, a process violation has been alleged on three issues: one, why the runner-up (L2), Eurofighter, was not played off against Rafale; two, why the entire initial contract was dropped abruptly; three, why Cabinet approval was not sought for the new deal, which involved no competition and reduced numbers. On the workshare front, there are two questions: one, why not Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), and why Reliance?

On closer examination, we find that every one of these seven questions is bogus. But more worryingly, they seem to arise from a complete lack of knowledge of process. Price escalation: In April 2012, I had pointed out in my Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies report (http://www.ipcs.org/issue_briefs/issue_ ... Rafale.pdf) that the final price per plane could not be under $212 million, based on figures put out by the French Senate. Yet, the media reported the official dogma of 126 planes for $10.4 billion — $82.5 million price per unit (ppu). By April 2013, the same media reported a 50% increase to $15 billion ($119 million ppu). By January 2014, this price had bloated 300% to $30 billion ($238 million ppu). The final total price paid by GoI was $8.7 billion for 36 airframes ($243 million ppu).

Price Savings: On the face of it, the final price was $5 million over the final round of negotiations by the UPA government. But this does not account for drastically reduced volumes: 1/4th the original, which makes a big difference. Also, there are at least three India-specific modifications, a training and five-year maintenance package, plus a 50% offset agreement. Prima facie again, this does indeed add up to actual price savings. The best way of judging, though, is to look at what other countries paid. Qatar bought its Rafales at $292 million ppu, with an extensive training maintenance and weapons package, but without offsets or workshare. Egypt bought their Rafales for $246 million ppu and India paid $243 million, with a less extensive package than Qatar, but with 50% offsets and significant India-specific modifications. On balance, this looks like an exceptionally well-negotiated deal

Eurofighter: It would be sensible for those questioning the propriety of this deal to refer to the 2013 Defence Procurement Policy (DPP), drafted under the UPA and in force when the contract was signed in 2016, the NDA 2016 DPP coming into effect in 2016-17. Despite allegations flying thick and fast, none has been able to quote exact sections of where the DPP was violated. For good reason. As there was no violation. As per the 2013 DPP, there is no provision for bringing in the Eurofighter (L2) except in production. So, if Dassault was unable to deliver at the stated price, Eurofighter would get a workshare in the Rafale. This, as any businessperson knows, is laughable, involving, as it does, handing over trade and production secrets to an arch-competitor. Yes, Eurofighter did give a last-minute revised bid at 20% less value than cited, which was rejected by the UPA government as there was no provision for triggering a price war at any point in the stated DPP. In fact, bringing in Eurofighter at any point, except to co-produce the Rafale, would have been a process violation.

Dumping the Contest: Faced with a $30 billion contract for 126 fighters that would have wrecked the capital outlay for years, if not decades (since no one in the previous government did due diligence on actual costs or available funding), abandonment of the competition was the most fiscally prudent thing to do. Moreover, while not provisioned in the DPP, it doesn’t disallow it specifically either. Which begs the question: what process violation?

Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approval for new contract: The relevant sections that deal with the Inter-Governmental Agreement for the Rafale purchase in 2016 lie in Articles 71and 72 of the 2013 DPP (http://cgda.nic.in/pdf/DPP2013.pdf). Again, those hurling allegations seem to have forgotten how to read the relevant sections, which surprisingly require no Defence Procurement Board (DPB), Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) or, indeed, CCS approval, for any purchase under this category. All they need is the approval of a competent financial authority (CFA) —in this case, the finance minister, who evidently was consulted.

Why Not HAL? Why Reliance? Because the final negotiated contract is for offsets of industrial defence goods, not an agreement to co-produce planes, which is HAL’s only competence (sic). The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) reportedly gets Rs 9,000 crore worth of offset work from Dassault, while Reliance is simply the biggest, not only, beneficiary of the remaining Rs 21,000 crore. This is apt as Reliance ADAG (Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group) along with L&T, Kalyani, Tata and Bharat Forge are the only ones actually producing defence equipment currently, and it was Dassault’s prerogative to pick its industrial partner. But this still doesn’t answer the question of alleged cronyism. Would Dassault tying up with Reliance (Mukesh Ambani) in 2012 and then winning the contract be UPA cronyism? If so, what are the institutional safeguards against such cronyism? There are several germane criticisms to be made on the Rafale deal. Sadly, the only thing we have witnessed this last fortnight is, to quote a senior Congress leader, an “exasperating farrago of distortions, misrepresentations & outright lies."

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jul 2018 03:48

When India failed Rafale
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... ed-rafale/

By Abhijit Iyer-Mitra - The writer is senior fellow, Institute of Peace & Conflict Studies, New Delhi

As NDTV’s defence correspondent Vishnu Som astutely pointed out, “Rafale is a ‘scam’ because of the inability of government leaders to lucidly argue, point by point, why Rafale was not a scam.” It may be worth adding that the deal is also a ‘scam’ because of the ignorance (feigned or real) on display in the media by many who are or claim to be strategic sector analysts.

The problem is that at no point of time has Rahul Gandhi asked for closed door briefing, instead demanding full public disclosure and going so far as to claim that French President Macron denied the existence of a secrecy pact. What is worse is that an ostensibly English speaking press seemed to miss the nuances of the English language, and understand what the French President said, thereby compelling a French clarification.

The fact of the matter is simple; India is asserting its rights as a Nuclear Weapons Power, and France is helping us do this at great risk to itself, and the Indian public discourse seems intent on proving India is an unreliable partner. It is high time the government stops treating this issue as a joke. It must understand the serious damage to national security its clumsy, incomplete and inarticulate defence is causing and offer a closed-door briefing to select opposition leaders, assuming it can mount a defence in private that it has failed to do in public..

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jul 2018 04:22

The first quote in the post above is 100% accurate. The puzzling silence and contradictory statements from the GoI have lent credibility to RaGa’s crazy and wild accusations. Just read Twitter and see the scores of Indian citizenry (and NRIs) who actually believe there is a Rafale scam. President Macron has clearly stated that some details can be shared with the opposition. Then do that!

geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1194
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby geeth » 22 Jul 2018 09:29

Rakesh wrote:The first quote in the post above is 100% accurate. The puzzling silence and contradictory statements from the GoI have lent credibility to RaGa’s crazy and wild accusations. Just read Twitter and see the scores of Indian citizenry (and NRIs) who actually believe there is a Rafale scam. President Macron has clearly stated that some details can be shared with the opposition. Then do that!


Unfortunately, you & the post above yours both are wrong on many counts:

1) The opposition know there is no scam. So, there is no point in trying to show or prove that there is no scam.
2) What drives the opposition is politics. But corruption stigma is not sticking on Modi. So they are so desperate that even French President is not spared.
3) Disclosing the price in private to the opposition is walking into their trap. Because, after the disclosure, they are not going to say that they are satisfied. Infact, they are going to say the scam is much bigger than they thought!
4) The so called 'some costs' are already revealed. The overall cost, the infrastructure cost etc are revealed. Even the per unit cost of the bare plane is also revealed I suppose. What the opposition wants is further breakdown of the costs, particularly about the weapons and electronic suits. If it is disclosed, it is a breach of contract and not only that, it will be politically used to further damage the deal and more accusations.

It is like saying "give some more land in Kashmir so that Pakis stop creating trouble in Kashmir". No, they will not. To put it mildly, Vishu Som's analysis is incorrect, and I don't want to cast aspersions on his motives..

Ravishankar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 43
Joined: 30 Aug 2008 16:32

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Ravishankar » 22 Jul 2018 11:13

How come no one talks about the M2k upgrade costs to put into perspective the costs associated with French wares? If the UPA claims they were negotiating 126 for $9B then they should explain the upgrade cost for ~50 M2k.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9692
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Jul 2018 11:57

The only ones who feel there is a scam is die-hard UPA fans for other reasons. Nothing can convince them and I guess we should move on and talk more on the technical aspects and use by IAF in the thread here.

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5179
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby RoyG » 22 Jul 2018 12:22

Makes sense to go with Rafale for MRCA 2.0

We'll already have an established infra to service the aircraft.

Su-30 + Rafale + Tejas MKI&II should form the bulk.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jul 2018 21:38

geeth wrote:1) The opposition know there is no scam. So, there is no point in trying to show or prove that there is no scam.

Whether the opposition believes its own tripe is inconsequential. They have made their claims believable to an electorate that is largely unawares on the intricacies of the deal and to a 24-hour news cycle media that loves to hype everything. And therein the NDA Govt has dropped the ball. They have not countered the Congress' nonsensical claims, on a point-by-point basis, at the very instance they came out. Each time the Congress asked a question, the Govt should have countered it with facts.

1) Congress claim is that the UPA negotiated significantly less than what the NDA has paid. That is a complete lie, considering that the UPA never even completed the deal in the first place!
2) Congress claim that the unit cost of Rafale is more than what Qatar and Egypt paid. Again lies, considering that the Rafale deals for Qatar and Egypt are not comparable to the Indian deal.
3) Congress claim that HAL has been deprived of jobs and Ambani got the deal. Even more lies, considering that all 36 birds are being delivered in a fly away condition from Dassault @ Merignac and DRAL @ Mihan is not even manufacturing a single bolt on that plane.
4) Congress claim that why EF was ignored, after they offered a lower price. Yet again lies, because you cannot go back to L2 when you already have identified L1. That is their own rule! AK Antony said that and so did the Air Chiefs at that time.

geeth wrote:3) Disclosing the price in private to the opposition is walking into their trap. Because, after the disclosure, they are not going to say that they are satisfied. Infact, they are going to say the scam is much bigger than they thought!

The opposition has that option now, because the govt has handed them that on a silver platter. They let RaGa's claims fester for this long. The Govt has not effectively countered the question that RaGa and his lackeys have been asking ---> Why was the Rafale, negotiated under the UPA at one price, bought by the NDA at a higher price?

geeth wrote:4) The so called 'some costs' are already revealed. The overall cost, the infrastructure cost etc are revealed. Even the per unit cost of the bare plane is also revealed I suppose. What the opposition wants is further breakdown of the costs, particularly about the weapons and electronic suits. If it is disclosed, it is a breach of contract and not only that, it will be politically used to further damage the deal and more accusations.

Has the Govt provided this breakdown below and asked the UPA to compare it to the deal they supposedly negotiated at 95% completion? When the UPA said the deal was at 95% completion, did the Govt ask the UPA how much weaponry was bought for $10.4 billion and does that $10.4 billion also include the base infrastructure for the seven squadrons of 126 birds? Two fundamental things that any fighter aircraft needs. Let us not even get into the specific enhancements that the IAF asked for, from the NDA Govt. A similar request would have been made to the UPA Govt as well, if they were in power and they completed the remaining 5% of negotiations. Saint Anthony would have gotten an asthma attack had he seen the cost that Dassault would have charged for IAF specific enhancements for 126 birds.

When looking at the UPA claim that they negotiated 126 birds for $10.4 billion, works out to around $83 million per bird. Dassault has never even sold a Rafale C to the French Air Force for that price! Why would they sell it to India for $83 million a piece? Why has the Govt not said anything to this effect? What is the Congress smoking?

- At $105 million fly away unit cost, how much would 126 Rafales actually cost? That is $13.2 billion. Where $10.4 billion sits and where is $13.2 billion? That is a difference of $2.8 billion! For the Congress that seems to be so concerned with Indian taxpayer money :roll:, that question should be asked no?
- How much weaponry (SCALP, Meteor, MICA) needs to be purchased for 126 birds versus 36 birds?
- For 36 birds, at two air bases, the base infrastructure works out to $2 billion. Since 126 birds works out to 7 squadrons, how many airbases would need this level of infrastructure to support 126 birds?
- IAF specific enhancements for 36 birds works out to $2 billion. What would the cost be for 126 birds?

Image

geeth wrote:It is like saying "give some more land in Kashmir so that Pakis stop creating trouble in Kashmir". No, they will not. To put it mildly, Vishu Som's analysis is incorrect, and I don't want to cast aspersions on his motives..

I am less concerned about Vishnu Som's motives and more concerned about RaGa's motives. I am waiting for the CAG report to come out and give a clean chit to the Govt, because the Govt appears to be unable to do so.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jul 2018 21:58

RoyG wrote:Makes sense to go with Rafale for MRCA 2.0

We'll already have an established infra to service the aircraft.

Su-30 + Rafale + Tejas MKI&II should form the bulk.

Sir, there is no money for 110 birds in this third round. Unless the Govt plans to go broke, there is no money. At the most 2 - 3 squadrons more, that is it. Read the RFI for MRCA 3.0 and you will realize how much this is going to cost. That is why - as you have said above - Rafale is the logical choice. Both Hasmira and Ambala can house one additional squadron each. That is it.

To buy any other plane, other than Rafale, for MRCA 3.0 is an utter waste of money. Because you will have to spend on a separate set of base infrastructure, a separate set of weaponry and spend also on IAF specific enhancements. With a repeat order of 36 - 44 Rafales, we only have to spend on the last two with the weaponry being added to the existing inventory. Weaponry also requires proper storage, which costs money.

At 44 Rafales, using the table above as a rough measure, the cost will be $7.82 billion. At 36 Rafales, using the table above as a rough measure, the cost will be $7 billion. Inflation has to be taken into account as well, which I have not included in the calculation.

A repeat Rafale order will be cheaper than investing in a whole new type of aircraft and all the goodies that come with it. And yes, I am aware than 44 additional Rafales is not anywhere close to 110 birds that MMRCA 3.0 requires. But then, the Govt has a call to make.

RoyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5179
Joined: 10 Aug 2009 05:10

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby RoyG » 22 Jul 2018 23:46

Rakesh wrote:Sir, there is no money for 110 birds in this third round.

We have money. They wouldn't have floated the tender otherwise. Wake me up in a few years when its all over.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 00:12

RoyG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Sir, there is no money for 110 birds in this third round.

We have money. They wouldn't have floated the tender otherwise. Wake me up in a few years when its all over.

Surely, you jest :)

At what the MoD is asking for, you are looking at nothing below $25 billion by the time you factor in 110 birds, the weaponry, the base infrastructure, the PBL agreement for 10 years, the factory to do screwdrivergiri, etc.

And this is just for MRCA 3.0....then there is Jaguar engine upgrade and DARIN III upgrade, Super Sukhoi upgrade, Tejas Mk1/Mk1A acquisition, AMCA acquisition, etc. And this is *JUST* for the Indian Air Force.

The Army has an ambitious (and foolhardy) FMBT program, artillery program (consisting of M777, Dhanush and ATAGS), infantry weapons program, etc, etc, etc. Already - because of paucity of funds - the Mountain Corps has been shelved. The buzzword - to quote a MoD official - do more, with less. How come the Babus do not follow that rule themselves?

The Navy has the Vishaal acquisition (estimated cost to be in billions with EMALS and no nuclear power), the 57 carrier borne fighters (estimated cost of $15+ billion), Project 75I submarines (upwards of $10 billion), SSN program of six boats, two more Arihant Class boats after Arighat, seven Project 17A frigates, four Project 15B destroyers, 110 naval helicopter acquisition, etc, etc, etc.

The MoD will get a sticker shock based on the OEMs reply to the RFI. This is the madness of MRCA 1.0 all over again. They asked for 126 birds at a certain price ($10.4 billion), not realizing there is a host of other accessories, contracts, weaponry, infrastructure that comes with 126 birds. Now with MRCA 3.0, the same will apply. Unless the IAF plans to keep these 110 birds as hangar queens.

I say again...surely, you jest!

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 415
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby VKumar » 23 Jul 2018 00:32

Money will be spent over next 10 to 12 years, from a growing GDP.

Not to bolster the defence, in a growing economy, is to invite trouble.

It's the cost of maintaining peace so the Nation can grow to its potential.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 00:49

VKumar wrote:Money will be spent over next 10 to 12 years, from a growing GDP.

Where was the growing GDP when we could not afford 126 Rafales, post May 2014, when the NDA Govt came into power?

Where was the growing GDP, when the MoD asked the Navy to drop the idea for a nuclear powered Vishal because of its high cost?

Where is the growing GDP for the Mountain Corps, that was just shelved?

VKumar wrote:Not to bolster the defence, in a growing economy, is to invite trouble.

It's the cost of maintaining peace so the Nation can grow to its potential.

Well said Sir, but the Govt does not agree with your assessment.

By restarting MRCA 3.0, have we acquiesced to the idea that there is something wrong in the Rafale deal? The previous govt just went through this entire tamasha a decade back. We really want to restart this process now? For what?

Since there is nothing wrong in the Rafale deal to begin with, why get another bird? A classic case of Penny Wise, Pound Foolish.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 04:56


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 04:56

Image

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50084
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 23 Jul 2018 06:41

Number 10 is why this Rafale is being questioned as the Augusta helicopter scam is floating up to arrests.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3159
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jul 2018 06:42

Just heard on a news program that the Jaguar deal is done and for "free" plus additional m2ks as well. Supposedly, a gift and party of the Rafale deal.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3159
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 23 Jul 2018 07:04

Here's a link
https://youtu.be/jdyV9iIyQJ0

Being marketed as a Goodwill gesture by France. Bjp will milk it for every last drop I'm sure.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 23 Jul 2018 08:57

ramana wrote:Number 10 is why this Rafale is being questioned as the Augusta helicopter scam is floating up to arrests.

I am concerned with Number 7 and 8.

Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3536
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Neela » 23 Jul 2018 11:11

Its on the news now.
32 Jaguars
2 MK2s

Refurbished and free of cost included in the deal.

Looks like India & France have had some chat in the background to reveal more details.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1131
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 23 Jul 2018 11:46

Interesting, info about jaguars has come out only after fresh allegations by Hugga aka RaGa. Sometime back there were murmurs here about linkage with Jaitapur plant.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5433
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2018 01:11

That serial number (BS 001) may not be correct. If memory serves me right, it is something else. I will have to check. You can get a bigger view of the picture below, by dragging the photo into your browser's URL bar.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 0794334209 ---> So this is what the Rafale in Indian Air Force colours will eventually look like.

Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: L Ram, Rakesh, ravikr and 25 guests