VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Sep 2018 23:56

Rafale will give India 'unprecedented' combat advantage: IAF Vice Chief
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 229_1.html

Describing Rafale as a "beautiful" aircraft, Air Marshal S B Deo, the Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force(IAF), said those criticising the deal must understand the procurement norms.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Sep 2018 23:58

Rafale deal: Is it about air power or political power?
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... iaf/279141

And why hadn’t the current NDA leadership taken the opposition parties into confidence about this deal? And endless delays in inducting the aircraft will only make India more vulnerable. As for the allegations of favouring Anil Ambani’s Reliance group, this is also contestable since it is the prerogative of the manufacturer to choose one or more Indian partners like Anil Ambani’s Reliance defence company. In the current G2G deal, there is no need to identify offset partners. This is to be done only when the other 90 aircraft are to be assembled/made in India. And Reliance apart there will be many more bidders for these arrangements.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 08 Sep 2018 04:53

If I recall correctly, the expected first Rafale delivery is in 2019 (probably Q4 2019), almost a year to go. I would love to hear a confirmation from GOI/MOD/DA/French-Govt that the delivery is going to happen as planned. Would be excellent if one can show 2 Rafales on assembly lines which are being prepared for India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 05:07

The first Rafales are expected to join IAF service in Sept 2019.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 07:08

Indian Air Force dismisses Rahul Gandhi's allegations of scam in Rafale deal
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2018-09-06

In a big setback to Congress president Rahul Gandhi, the Indian Air Force (IAF) today dismissed his claims of a scam in Rafale deal. The Air Force Deputy Chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar today said that the Modi government' s deal is 40 per cent cheaper than the Congress deal which was being negotiated since 2008 and could not be completed. In an exclusive interaction with India Today, Nambiar also dismissed Congress's allegation that Anil Ambani's Reliance Defence was favoured in terms of offset and awarded of Rs 30,000 crore contract by the Modi government. The Air Marshal said that compared to the prices of Rafale jets in 2008, the price received by the Modi government was much better than what the Congress had negotiated for. Deputy Chief Air Marshal Nambiar also very categorically said that Rafale was the best fighter jet available in the market today and will help in establishing the supremacy of the Indian Air Force over the skies of the subcontinent. The 36 jets, acquired under a Rs 60,000 crore deal by the Modi government, are expected to start arrive in September 2019 while the entire fleet would be delivered by the year 2021-22. The Air Force is in favour of buying more Rafale jets to arrest the number of its dwindling fighter planes strength.

--------------------------------------

Video of Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar saying the above. Nowadays you have to provide video evidence on BRF, otherwise it will be labeled as DDM :) Eagerly awaiting the CAG report on Rafale to come out and the 2019 elections to be completed (with the BJP winning again!). Once those two are done, the IAF will order a follow on batch of 36 - 44 Rafales. Read the last line of the article.

If that happens, I expect MMRCA 3.0 to be cancelled and a G2G deal will commence for the F-35.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 07:15

Rakesh wrote:Rafale will give India 'unprecedented' combat advantage: IAF Vice Chief
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 229_1.html

Describing Rafale as a "beautiful" aircraft, Air Marshal S B Deo, the Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force(IAF), said those criticising the deal must understand the procurement norms.


First part is about the Tejas and the second part is about the Rafale....


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 07:35

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 1003289600 ---> 72 are assured. 126 was before politics got involved. Still think it is highly probably as budgets increase and utility of Rafale is demonstrated. One thing for sure is MMRCA 2.0 is doomed to fail.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 07:41

new hashtag (#IAFBacksRafale) that has caught on like fire on twitter ---> https://twitter.com/hashtag/IAFBacksRafale?src=hash

Click on the above link and see whose twitter account pops up! The damn irony!!! :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 07:49

Bhaskar_T wrote:If I recall correctly, the expected first Rafale delivery is in 2019 (probably Q4 2019), almost a year to go. I would love to hear a confirmation from GOI/MOD/DA/French-Govt that the delivery is going to happen as planned. Would be excellent if one can show 2 Rafales on assembly lines which are being prepared for India.

BREAKING NEWS!

Excellent & NEW info on Rafale delivery for the Indian Air Force. Just a badly written article though. My comments on the article are below this post.

First Rafale for India being flight-tested in France, only one will arrive custom-made
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... e-5345837/

As the Rafale deal continues to be at the centre of a political maelstrom, The Indian Express has learnt that only one of 36 Rafale fighter aircraft will be supplied from France to India until the end of the contract period in April 2022 with India-Specific Enhancements. The balance 35 aircraft will start being delivered to India beginning September 2019, but they will be incorporated with these enhancements in India itself after the contract period at the rate of seven aircraft per month. In a reply given in Rajya Sabha in July, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman had said that the “delivery of 36 Rafale aircraft in a fly-away condition along with associated equipment and weapons will commence from September 2019 and will be completed by April 2022.” However, it will be only in September 2022 that the full complement of 36 Rafale aircraft will be available with IAF with the India-Specific Enhancements in place.

Government sources have often claimed that by negotiating a deal where the supply of 36 French jets would be completed by April 2022, it has saved five months off the UPA-era negotiations to meet the urgent operational requirements of the IAF. Sources said one of the 36 Rafale aircraft to be supplied to India had commenced test-flying in France last month. India-Specific Enhancements are being flight-tested on this fighter jet, sources added, which is a two-seater Rafale aircraft (RB008). The testing of this aircraft will continue until April 2022, sources said, when it will be ready to be delivered to India.

Indian Air Force (IAF) and French pilots are jointly undertaking the testing of this aircraft which will lead to certification of India-Specific Enhancements. An IAF team of four officers has been in France since August 2017 for testing India-Specific Enhancements and monitoring the production of 36 Rafale aircraft. Questions sent by The Indian Express to the Ministry of Defence, an Indian Air Force spokesperson and a spokesperson for Dassault Aviation went unanswered. “The flight test and certification of the India-Specific Enhancements on one Rafale will be complete within 67 months (until April 2022) of signing of the contract. All the aircraft cannot be equipped with India-Specific Enhancements unless the flight test is complete and the aircraft is certified to the new capabilities. This is the reason the last aircraft to be delivered is the first to be manufactured,” sources told The Indian Express.

“By the time the first Rafale is certified with India-Specific Enhancements, 35 Rafale aircraft would have already been delivered to India. The 35 aircraft would be modified in India in the next five months. This is a simple plug-and-play process,” sources said. As per the requirements given by the IAF for the 126-aircraft MMRCA deal during the UPA government, there are 13 India-Specific Enhancements demanded by India. These include radar enhancement, helmet mounted displays, towed decoy system, low band jammer, radio altimeter and ability to start & operate from High Altitude Airfields. These additional capabilities are not present in Rafale aircraft in service with the French Air Force. When the BJP government signed an inter-government agreement for 36 Rafale aircraft in 2016, it did not make any changes to the list of India-Specific Enhancements.

Meanwhile, sources said, four of the balance 35 Rafale fighter aircraft will be in the production line at Dassault’s plant in Bordeaux at the beginning of next year. This, sources said, is as per schedule and will lead to delivery of the first French fighter jet to IAF in September 2019. The last Rafale would join the IAF from France by April 2022.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 08:05

^^^^ Just a couple of clarifications in the above article, as it is not written well at all. SHEESH!!!! :x

1) From Sept 2019 to April 2022, is 31 months for 36 aircraft. So at the average rate of 1+ aircraft per month. However aircraft deliveries will be in batches and not in individual flights to India.

2) The first "Indian" Rafale is already flying and has the serial number RB008. That is an internal serial number being used by Dassault, as IAF serial numbers for the Rafale are EH (single seater) and DH (dual seater). I am eagerly awaiting to see which serial numbers are delivered first.

3) 28 Rafales will be of the EH variety and 8 Rafales will be of the DH variety. So the first ever Indian Rafale is a dual seater - my favoured Katrina :)

4) Four aircraft will be in the production line starting from January of 2019. Thus production (metal fabrication, composite fabrication, sourcing parts, etc) of the remaining 35 Indian Rafales have already begun.

4) None of the 36 aircraft will arrive with India-specific enhancements, but rather they will be done *AFTER* they arrive in India as a plug-and-play process. The test bed aircraft (RB008) is expected to complete her testing of the India-specific enhancements only by April 2022. Once that is complete, the 35 aircraft will be converted into Indian Rafales at the rate of 7 aircraft per month and is expected to be done by September 2022.

5) By September 2022, an exact three years after first delivery in September 2019, both squadrons at Hasimara AFS and Ambala AFS will be at full strength (but with no attrition reserves) at 18 aircraft each and will be 100% Indianized Rafales.

6) The article is wrong in stating that the IAF had asked for 13 India-Specific Enhancements during the UPA tenure. I believe that is incorrect and the India-Specific Enhancements were only negotiated under the present Govt for 36 birds. Someone please correct me, if I am wrong.

7) One of the India-Specific Enhancements mentioned (the ability to start & operate from high altitude airfields) is very interesting. This suggests that IAF flight testing - during the MMRCA 1.0 contest - the M88 turbofan may have taken off, but not with the performance level that the IAF required. Snecma-Safran has thus reworked (am I even using the right term?) the M88 turbofan for increased thrust at high altitude. I am hoping that tech flows into the Kaveri program. I am allowed to dream, ok? :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 08 Sep 2018 10:03

what a beauty!

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 20:29

Rakesh wrote:6) The article is wrong in stating that the IAF had asked for 13 India-Specific Enhancements during the UPA tenure. I believe that is incorrect and the India-Specific Enhancements were only negotiated under the present Govt for 36 birds. Someone please correct me, if I am wrong.


https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 8118518785 ---> Should be noted that NONE of these Indian-Specific Enhancements (ISE) were present on the Rafale deal negotiated by previous government. ISE ensures that the IAF will receive the most advanced and capable Rafales ever created.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 20:47

Rakesh wrote:3) Thus the IAF realizes its best bet lies in acquiring what is in currently in the inventory. No bird will start evaluation prior to Sept 2019 anyway, when the first set of Rafales will be operational. Even prior to that, aircrew will be sent to France for Rafale conversion training. Pilots will be raving about the plane (and justifiably so) and that will definitely be heard - LOUD & CLEAR - at Air HQ. And if Dassault offers the F4R roadmap - even if on paper - it will be an even more attractive proposition.


https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 0437374976 ---> Breaking News: An IAF offficer to fly to France today. Will be trained for a year in France to fly the Rafale. He is being given Instructor level training and will act as instructor for next batch of pilots later on.

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 9772003328 ---> Sources said the first Rafale to be formally handed over to IAF in September 2019. The plan is to bring fully equipped 4-6 aircraft to India by March 2020.

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 5586604033 ---> Sources say the pilot will first get trained on a French Air Force aircraft before he flies the Indian specification aircraft which is under production.

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 2577031168 ---> Sources also tell me that the initial validation would be done on the computer. it is only the instructor who validate the Indian Rafale once it is handed over to IAF.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 20:54

The DCAS (Deputy Chief of Air Staff) is Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar, a Kargil veteran.

Nirmala Sitharaman defers visit to France
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 727575.cms

Meanwhileat least two senior military teams will visit France in the coming weeks, sources said. One of the teams, to be led by the deputy chief of air staff, will inspect the production line of the Rafale fighter jets. The senior officer is also scheduled to fly the fighter jet during the visit, from the front cockpit. Another team, led by a senior naval officer, will review the ongoing production and delivery of the Scorpene submarines that are being rolled out from Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Shipbuilders Limited (MDL).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Sep 2018 21:04

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3808261120 ---> Images of Indian pilots flying French Air Force Rafales in Exercise Pitch Black recently in Australia. These same jets are now in India enroute to France. All photo courtesy here Royal Australian Air Force.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 09 Sep 2018 00:56

Deadly Desert Dame
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 02:07

Rahul Gandhi and Congress are doing India a great service by taking issue with the way the Rafale deal is playing out. Recall that a core of the 36 aircraft deal was that Safran would help test, certify, and integrate Kaveri with Tejas as part of the offsets. Safran twisted this to propose a "Safranized Kaveri" - a Kaveri engine with the Kabini core swapped out and a M-88 core plugged into its place. Sounds like laudable help, except that it really amounts to dealing an irreversible setback to the operationalization of the Kabini core which has to be at the heart of India's aerospace ambitions.

Recall that about 10 years ago, DRDO and GTRE got slammed by CAG and IAF personnel for proposing just this. ACM Matheeswaran was a particularly voluble opponent of that old deal, and very rightly so. CAG, appropriately, called this a bait and switch on the part of DRDO, and I am sure that contributed in no small part to the eventual shutting down of the Kaveri program.

So it is scandalous that the old, discredited proposal would now be revived at a time when Kaveri needed that last push to get to the point of being flight-worthy. This can be construed as an attempt at killing off the program by shoving it in cold storage just when it has turned the corner. And even more scandalous that it was with the active collusion of DRDO (the past chief is on record) and presumably support from IAF proponents of the Rafale deal. The sheer gall of the French to have their President come and sell Safran Snake Oil to the Prime Minister of India should enrage any right thinking Indian. Kaveri is the Crown Jewel of Indian technology. To have it cast aside as an unloved orphan would be enough reason to bring down a government, no matter how good it has been so far in its economic performance or reformist credentials. This would be 10,000 times worse than Bofors.

To make matters worse, think of all that was premised on the sale of a Safranized Kaveri and its derivatives - this would give the French a permanent lever to influence Tejas Mk 1, Tejas Mk 2, and AMCA, all programs premised on an eventual substitution of GE engines with growth versions of not Kaveri but a thinly disguised M-88. Shame on DRDO and ADA for wanting to abort their own child. Shame on IAF for letting this come to pass.

If Rahul Gandhi truly wanted to hurt India's interest, he would have waited until the ink was dry on a deal with the French and then used this to nuke BJP's political fortune. Instead, he started raising it last year, well before irreparable harm was done to India's (pardon the pun) core interests. Thank you Congress! You saved Kaveri from oblivion before, and you did it one more time.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2018 02:15

DRDO's 2017 annual report says, Safran ran a technical audit on existing Kaveri prototypes and recommended flight testing.

I don't thing Kaveri core has been replaced so quickly with M88, that it will be ready for flight testing.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 02:22

True, but what we are seeing is a furious backpedaling. Recollect news reports starting late last year and leading up to Macron's visit to India this April. All of those news were about M-88-Kaveri. When that got shot down, the French had to deliver on their original promise which was to certify Kaveri.

As to integrating Kaveri with M-88, French are no strangers to that concept since they had already engaged with GTRE/DRDO about 10 years ago. Public memories are way too short.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 03:44

I would suggest close hearing and reading of issues being raised by Arun Shourie and others on this. They are saying thus (and I paraphrase):

(1) why was the original premise of manufacture in India bypassed in the new deal. The new deal saves some money, but a huge part of the old deal was manufacturing in India. There are responses to this such as there was no old deal and that manufacturing would not automatically lead to skill, but the only viable counter is to show some material and tangible benefit, say through the execution of offsets. Kaveri certification was to be that material and tangible benefit, so why the silence?

(2) Related to the above is "show me the money". How is the additional amount in the new deal spent? To go into secret details of additional technologies is not a conclusive defense, because the unsaid expectation was that the benefits from Kaveri certification would speak for themselves. If the certification that was announced is such a triumphal culmination of the offsets deal, why is no one going to town with that? Is it because Dassault did not actually spend the money on certifying Kaveri as it promised to do? That should not be a secret, right? So why the suspicious silence?

The main idea in being critical about highly sensitive national security issues such as this deal is that words of criticism have to be chosen very carefully, and sometimes the main targets of criticism cannot be mentioned. Dassault is the main culprit here, but France and Dassualt are entities we want to continue to do business with, so any criticism on this has to avoid creating a situation where we cannot do future business with them.


IAF and DRDO are essential institutions, and any mistakes committed by their personnel have to be dealt with the greatest circumspection. So who remains? Reliance, of course. It presents an easy scapegoat. Likewise, the ruling dispensation is always fair game, because it ultimately falls on them to justify the risky call to scrap the original negotiations and go with a new deal. The fault is not with the decision to go with 36 Rafaels in place of the original 126, but in how the follow-on clauses are being perceived as being implemented. And while I continue to be an ardent admirer of Modi, ultimately the buck stops with him and he will need to produce tangible vindication for his momentous call.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Srutayus » 09 Sep 2018 07:51

Y I Patel wrote:the decision to go with 36 Rafaels in place of the original 126

Y I Patel wrote:why was the original premise of manufacture in India bypassed in the new deal.

Y I Patel wrote:How is the additional amount in the new deal spent


The 36 Rafales (not Rafaels) were the stop gap due to the deal for the 126 with local manufacture etc. going nowhere. This has been clear from the outset and has been repeated several times including by the IAF in the last few days. In other words, they are not the replacement for the 126 but the minimum immediate requirement identified by the IAF which was waiting for years form MRCA-1 to fructify with an inventory that was rapidly crossing into obsolescence.
How many times will the Government and IAF have to clarify the same things?

Of course the larger number was to be re-tendered. But with the order size, local manufacture requirement, associated risk and quality responsibility amongst the stakeholders, the huge required budget especially with spares, maintenance, weapons etc. factored in as they ought to have been, it will take time for it to come through if ever. Hence the necessity for the stop-gap. And hence MRCA-2.
There was no old deal from MRCA-1, MRCA-2 is the attempt to actually have a deal, and the 36 is to arrest the shortfall in the interim.

It has also been clearly stated and restated in several articles that the additional amount is related to the spares, weapons package, availability requirement etc. in addition to India specific enhancements and offsets. The Kaveri related work, if included will only form part of the offsets. The additional amount covers a lot more than that. The lifecycle cost of aircraft including the maintenance, weapons etc. is several times that of the initial aircraft cost. The weapons, spares and maintenance in the new deal is related to this.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/opinion/et-commentary/view-the-plane-truth-about-rafale-deal-is-so-hard-to-see/articleshow/62937909.cms
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/42684-when-india-failed-rafale/
https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/a-history-of-how-india-zeroed-on-rafale-and-why-the-congress-charge-of-corruption-in-the-rafale-deal-is-absolutely-bogus
https://www.myind.net/Home/viewArticle/decoding-the-india-france-g2g-rafale-deal-why-it-is-not-a-scam

Hopefully, with the present government having made progress on convincing the IAF to accept the LCA, the MRCA-2 with more capable but much more expensive aricraft such as the Rafale becomes unnecessary and we can look ahead to the AMCA.

It takes far more effort to put together replies than to raise frivolous questions. I have seen how every few weeks after the questions have been comprehensively answered, the same questions are repeated. I request the Admins to create an FAQ for the Rafale deal so it can be used when this happens.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 09 Sep 2018 08:11

Thanks Srutayus for a great reply. This post should go into the FAQ.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 08:26

Very good points Srutayus! +108!

Srutayus wrote:The 36 Rafales (not Rafaels)

:lol:

Srutayus wrote:How many times will the Government and IAF have to clarify the same things?

Rafale will give India 'unprecedented' combat advantage: IAF Vice Chief
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 229_1.html

Describing Rafale as a "beautiful" aircraft, Air Marshal S B Deo, the Vice Chief of the Indian Air Force(IAF), said those criticising the deal must understand the procurement norms. Deo said "all discussions on the deal" were taking place as people do not have adequate information about the procurement procedure.

The above is from the Vice Chief of Air Staff, Indian Air Force. But RaGa and his lackeys know more about the procurement process than the Indian Air Force. It is not Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa who is the Chief of Air Staff, but RaGa onlee. He wrote the DPP after all!

Srutayus wrote:There was no old deal from MRCA-1, MRCA-2 is the attempt to actually have a deal, and the 36 is to arrest the shortfall in the interim.

You would think after the full Ramayana and Mahabarat on explaining the bolded part - umpteen times - on BRF, folks would be able to discern the difference. Alas, that is meant not to be. Like RaGa - even with the explanations and the evidence - they still believe otherwise. You can bring a horse to the water, but you cannot make him drink.

Srutayus wrote:It takes far more effort to put together replies than to raise frivolous questions. I have seen how every few weeks after the questions have been comprehensively answered, the same questions are repeated. I request the Admins to create an FAQ for the Rafale deal so it can be used when this happens.

Dropping the F-16 and F-18 from MRCA-1 has caused a lot of heartache and angst among some on BRF. That is proving a hard pill to swallow. So every now and then, the same questions (actually insinuations!) are repeated to sow doubts that there is indeed some ghotala in the Rafale deal. Let the CAG report come out and then everyone can see.

Oh wait - I forgot - RaGa will still claim financial irregularities :)

The end goal is this ---> cancel the Rafale deal and go in for F-16 or F-18 instead. That will require the MoD to commence negotiations all over again with Lockheed Martin or Boeing for the chosen bird. Which will take another 4 - 5 years to complete, sign a contract and for deliveries to commence. So the same folks who cry Squadron Shortage!!!, Chinese Threat!!! will gladly wait that length of time for the Amreeki bird to arrive. Who cares - if between now and then - pilots die in crashes (not my son or my father or my brother or my uncle in the cockpit...why should I care?) and squadron strength goes down even further.

But strategic alignment with America is sancroscant above everything else.

‘It’ll take 4-5 years to seal new deal for 110 fighters’
https://www.deccanherald.com/exclusives ... l-new.html

Interview of the former Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal R K Sharma (Retd)

So, it’s not as if the new deal will happen in one or two years’ time. My guess is, it will be at least 4-5 years. At least 4 years. Today, we only have an RFI. The RFP (Request for Proposal) has to be given after a detailed scrutiny of the RFI. Subsequently, the proposals will come. The technical evaluation will take place. The reports will be made and studied. There are timeframes given in the Defence Procurement Procedure for all these. This, by itself, will take 2-3 years. Then comes the contract negotiations, which take a very long time because we have to negotiate the main contract, the offset contract and technology transfer details. Taken together, it will be 4-5 years.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2018 12:24

YI Patel, IAF/DRDO can ask but there is no guarantee that Dassault, Thales, Safran have to agree on anything we ask, for instance DRDO's attempt to get a cost-effective RCS reduction measure for the LCA canopy, was rejected by Dassault as being proprietary. We have our own tech, but clearly, any attempt to get insight into the French one was shot down.

Having said that, a long time ago on BRF, a certain YI Patel had pointed out "sources and methods" matter and to be circumspect about discussing things that will come out when they should, so keeping that in mind, lets just say the Rafale deal is not merely the aircraft and its systems alone and actually cements the Indo-French ties.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Sep 2018 17:56

With due respect to the good AM it is true that the Raffy will give us "unprecedented" advantage, but the true "backbone" of the IAC as many AMs have reiterated are the 270+ MKIs which will be upgraded to carry BMos.
This bird comes in at half the cost of one Raffy , even HAL built MKIs.That's why an extra 40 HAL built ones are seriously being considered.

The collapse of the Rupee, Asia's worst performing currency, which has just lost around 18% within the last sev. months will add massively to the cost of acquiring Rafales.I have consistently maintained that hard costs will drastically affect all our arms acquisitions and right from the start a cost-effective policy should underline defence acquisitions.

The Rafale controversy is all about the wrong reasons.A hard look at costs and other more cost-effective options from both east and west , plus the more important task of perfecting and producing the LCA in large annual quantity should be given a higher priority than acquiring large numbers of ultra-expensive Rafales.
Last edited by Philip on 09 Sep 2018 22:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vips » 09 Sep 2018 18:05



Telling comments from Air Marshal Ahluwalia from 5:00 onwards how the Congoon defence minister had put the deal on halt on the basis of a letter from somebody about price escalation and how HAL has QC problems

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Sep 2018 19:16

Rakesh, I will bet this MRCA 2.0 fracas will ultimately be cancelled if NaMO is back, common sense will predominate and we will buy another 36-50 odd Rafales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 20:48

Karan M wrote:Rakesh, I will bet this MRCA 2.0 fracas will ultimately be cancelled if NaMO is back, common sense will predominate and we will buy another 36-50 odd Rafales.

Exactly Karan! +108!

I am waiting for the CAG report to come out and give its audit. It will serve as a nice thappad to the folks who claim that there is a scam in the deal. Although this would be too to ask for CAG to write in its audit, it would be nice to add the following line in the report ---> "Our only fault in the Rafale purchase, is that the Govt ordered too little!" :mrgreen:

Once the CAG report comes out and if Modi wins 2019 elections, I expect a follow on purchase of the Rafale. Air Marshal Nambiar even alluded to that in the recent interview. Very pleased to hear the recent vote of confidence in not just the aircraft (which was expected), but even in the way the contract was signed from the Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Shirish Baban Deo and the Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar. The vote of confidence from the Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa is a good shot in the arm as well.

What RaGa can actually bring to the table in 2019? His lack of intellectual curiosity on any matter of signficance that concerns the country is downright scary. He is like the Sarah Palin of Indian Politics. I fully expect Prime Minister Modi to win the 2019 elections.

A number between 36 - 50 is the sweet spot for the Rafale. And that will be the end of MMRCA 2.0 and I think a new G2G deal will commence with Amreeka for the F-35A. Around 2 - 3 squadrons worth to serve as door crashers against the PLAAF. And they might lump the single-engine F-35B along with it as well for the navy twin-engine contest. The navy will get a stretched Vikrant (called the Vishaal) with a ski jump and wider lifts to accomodate the F-35B. All from a FACO line.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 21:00

When the 36 ac deal was announced in mid-2016, it was explained in simple terms: 36 urgently needed a/c for ~$8 B; $1 B in offsets to be used as needed to rectify Kaveri faults, certify it, and integrate it with Tejas.

That was brilliant, and the noise at that time was the loud cheers and the equally loud sighs of relief. Importantly, the deal was secured by France because of the promised help in getting Kaveri operational on Tejas. The Kaveri related help was an explicit commitment made to get the deal. The offset budget, it was publicly stated, was to be used for that purpose.

Fast forward to two years later, if everything had gone according to the original commitments, it is more than reasonable to expect even without being asked:
(a) how much of the offsets has been spent so far on the Kaveri project, given that a certificate was issued a couple of months or so ago, and
(b) what are the follow-on plans for any additional necessary tests and promised integration into Tejas.

None of this needs to be protected as secret or sensitive information. None of this is a matter of them denying technology to DRDO. If anything, all progress or success in this needs to be loudly and triumphantly publicized. And yet, why has this dog not barked?

What have we heard instead? We heard that no less than the President of France came to India in April to seal a new deal to sell a lot more a/c, with a M-88 disguised as a Kaveri. This is not a new bait and switch. Recollect that a similar offer was loudly denounced by IAF (AM Matheeswaran) and DRDO was hammered by CAG for lying about the nature of collaboration with the French. A decade ago, it was condemned because it was not collaboration, it was passing off the M-88 as Kaveri. Not different than putting fresh paint on a Ding Dong and passing it off as a Ghauri.


So here is what I think happened, and why I am now inclined to believe the critics.

(1) I think France reneged on their original commitment to help with the Kaveri project and integration with Tejas and instead spent a bunch of money on repackaging M-88 that they tried to pass of as Kaveri related expenses
(2) I think that the promised "ToT" for the repainted M-88 would be at least as restrictive and as misleading as to "ToT" for Russian engines currently being assembled in India
(3) I think an attempt was made to kill the Kaveri by using a disguised M-88, with collusion from highly placed personages in India. Macron would not have come to India with that offer unless France was given to believe that India was willing to accept, and
(4) I think the deal got shot down because someone in India blew the whistle and Congress picked up on it to raise a loud ruckus.


I am more than willing to be proven wrong. I would love to see lots of Rafales in IAF service, provided they have the real Kaveri and not a rebadged M-88. So please prove me wrong. Like I mention above, it should not take much to do so.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2018 21:06

the bitter truth is none will help us cross the hump of the hot section or materials science.
we will have to cross the river ourselves perhaps with freelance ukrainian/eu/russian help if possible.
the first iterations will be poor vs the refined best of breeds out there, but after 15 years maybe will be reach quality for mass induction.

this is same path china is trudging with the WS-10 variations and they are still not there after 15 years

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 21:10

@ YI Patel: Not a single thing you have said above is true. But it does not matter, because the facts are otherwise. You are certainly entitled to your opinon (and you can keep harping on it, like a broken record player), but you are not entitled to your own facts.

Breakthrough for Kaveri engine, Clears Audit for Aircraft Integration
https://defenceupdate.in/breakthrough-f ... tegration/
June 21, 2018

The news article is a little over 2.5 months old. But the article states the following;

1) According to information provided by DRDO in it’s Anual Report for 2017, Five Kaveri engine prototypes K5, K6, K7, K8, and K9 were tested for about 145 hours in total in 2017 during which some critical and several tests like a transient test from idle to max reheat conditions were carried out for the first time successfully .

2) Under the terms of the partnership finalised late last year, Snecma is working to modify, certify and integrate the Kaveri on a Light Combat Aircraft airframe before 2020.

3) According to the report submitted, Safran completes technical audit of Kaveri jet engine prototype in France. Report said that the engine had attained sufficient maturity to be integrated with an aircraft for limited envelope flight testing.

4) DRDO Chief Dr S Christopher in 2017 had said that LCA-Tejas will fly with Indo-French Kaveri engine by 2019 Aero India. The Kaveri engine reportedly will be able to generate 88.9 kN to 99 kN of Thrust with afterburner.

There will likely be delays with the timeline - as is expected with any project - but that does not take away from the fact that the Kaveri program is indeed moving ahead with the assistance of Snecma-Safran. The above are the facts of the matter. You will not like the above facts - because it throws to waste everything you have said - but that does not matter. Your opinions do not change the ground reality.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 09 Sep 2018 21:15

Cut out the nonsense, there is no Uncle Quattrocchi in the Rafale deal
M J Akbar | Sep 9, 2018, 02.00 AM IST

(The writer is MoS, external affairs)
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/hom ... 736003.cms

The best antidote to nonsense is surely common sense. Check this out on the Common Sense Index. The total cost of the 36 Rafale strike aircraft for the Indian Air Force, upgraded with latest assault capability, was reportedly around Rs 58,000 crore. Congress president Rahul Gandhi claims that there has been corruption of Rs 45,000 crore on this purchase through subsidiary, future business, known as “offsets”, to one particular industrialist. Why should any foreign manufacturer sweeten someone else’s life to the extent of Rs 45,000 crore in order to get a contract of Rs 58,000 crore? The math simply doesn’t add up. We know that Mr Gandhi is talking about this limited order of 36 planes, and not the proposed full order of 126 Rafales, because in a tweet timed 7.22pm, July 27, he claimed, with pseudo-linguistic winks, that the “benefit” to this industrialist would be “20 BILLION US$”. The language is juvenile, but the imagination is fertile. The $20 billion figure has quietly disappeared from discourse because Mr Gandhi’s highly compensated advisers clearly felt that, even by the standards of Pinnochio, this was ludicrous overkill.

If common sense junks these fabrications, facts demolish them. Let us take the accusation at the core of this propaganda: the lie that Rafale is overpriced. In March 2012, the UPA government accepted a price of Rs 538 crore for the bare aircraft, along with a price escalation clause that by May 2015 would have taken the cost to Rs 737 crore. The present government has bought the bare aircraft a year later for Rs 670 crore, which is 9% less. The bare aircraft however is exactly what it says it is: bare. It is only a cockpit craft with radar, a passenger plane for one pilot who can perhaps see the enemy on radar and then freeze into impotence. With the necessary weaponisation needed for a multi-role combat machine, the price, by UPA-accepted specifications, would have gone to Rs 2,023 crore per aircraft. The present government has further enhanced strike capacity, technology, equipment, performance-based logistics, added earlier delivery — and brought down the total cost by nearly 20%. Rahul Gandhi compares the price of an impotent, bare Rafale to that of a superb fighting machine that will fill a yawning hole in India’s air security, and believes he can fool the people of India.

This price reduction is because of a commitment given by France to Prime Minister Narendra Modi in the joint statement on April 10, 2015, that the Rafale would be procured on “better terms” than those negotiated with UPA. “The two leaders agreed to conclude an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for supply of the aircraft on terms that would be better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation as part of a separate process underway...” Further, once the contract moves through the IGA route, it has to be approved by the Competent Financial Authority and due diligence. The process, including Defence Procurement Procedure, is a legal requirement. Mr Gandhi’s process, on the other hand, consists of nothing more nuanced than flinging numbers in the air, without an iota of evidence, and hoping that some of the dirt will stick. Take the requirement of offsets, which obliges Dassault to allot future business on maintenance or spare parts to Indian companies. The government of India has no role in the distribution of this business. Mr Gandhi always suggests that only one particular company, part-owned by Anil Ambani, will get subsidiary contracts once the need arises three or four years down the line. The fact is that there are 72 such companies, including BEL and DRDO in the public sector and Tata in the private sector. The total worth of orders to be spread among 72 companies is estimated to be Rs 30,000 crore. You have to be weird to believe any company can make Rs 45,000-crore profits out of Rs 30,000 crore worth of orders that will be divided between 70-plus firms.

If you question Congress leaders, they will accept, in muted tones, that no bribe has been paid. Unlike in deals like Augusta Westland helicopters, or HDW submarines, or the famous Bofors guns. There is no “Uncle Quattrocchi” this time. For those who may not remember, Ottavio Quattrocchi was an Italian businessman operating out of India, who became such a close friend of the Gandhi family that he was a virtual “Uncle” to Rahul Gandhi. Quattrocchi was the conduit for bribes paid in the purchase of Bofors guns in the 1980s. The last favour he got in India was during the UPA era, when his frozen bank accounts were released by the law ministry. It has been wisely said that telling the truth is easier than telling lies. Lies must be protected by sustainability; the truth does not vary. As finance minister Arun Jaitley noted in his scathing blog, Rahul Gandhi claimed from Karnataka in May that the price of each bare Rafale was Rs 700 crore; in Parliament this was deflated to Rs 520 crore; in Raipur he raised it to Rs 540 crore — and in Jaipur he offered two figures (Rs 520 crore and Rs 540 crore) in one speech. As they say in the digital age, a lie flies halfway across the world while the truth is putting on its boots. But truth has now put on its boots, and is kicking lies out of the ballpark.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 09 Sep 2018 21:25

Karan M wrote:Rakesh, I will bet this MRCA 2.0 fracas will ultimately be cancelled if NaMO is back, common sense will predominate and we will buy another 36-50 odd Rafales.

namOnamaH focus on AMCA, Mk2 and MKI upgrades.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 21:31

Singha wrote:the bitter truth is none will help us cross the hump of the hot section or materials science.



Totally agree. But as I point out, the help was to rectify faults in existing Kaveri and integrate it into Tejas. The original commitment nowhere mentions any transfer of technology - only requirement was to test existing technology, certify it, and integrate it into Tejas. Release of high level financial information related to current progress and upcoming outlays on this commitment is all that is required to silence criticism.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 21:33

Y I Patel wrote:Totally agree. But as I point out, the help was to rectify faults in existing Kaveri and integrate it into Tejas. The original commitment nowhere mentions any transfer of technology - only requirement was to test existing technology, certify it, and integrate it into Tejas. Release of high level financial information related to current progress and upcoming outlays on this commitment is all that is required to silence criticism.

100% Lies. But please continue :)

Official 2017 DRDO Report.....refer to Page 15, left bottom paragraph. Facts matter, Opinions do not :)

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/ebooks ... .html#p=27

But I am fully aware that you will pooh-pooh this report :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 21:45

Folks, remember one thing. A successful, working and certified Kaveri engine will cause a sudden spike in blood pressure in a few on BRF.

Because that is the last hurdle to overcome in fully making the Tejas an Indian bird. Thus the desperate attempt to discredit Snecma-Safran's assistance and GTRE's own work in the area. What Snecma-Safran is doing, the Jet Engine Technology Joint Working Group (JETJWG) between India and the US may have done. What is causing the angst & grief (and thus the timing of these posts) is that Snecma-Safran / GTRE is beating them to the game.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 09 Sep 2018 21:48

So if all this work was already done, why did Macron come with an offer to use a rebadged M-88 in Rafales instead of the real deal?

Rakesh, I will say this - I cannot ignore you because you are an admin, but I would love to because (a) you are unable to put together nuanced thought, and (b) you cannot argue without making it personal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 21:56

Y I Patel wrote:I am more than willing to be proven wrong. I would love to see lots of Rafales in IAF service, provided they have the real Kaveri and not a rebadged M-88. So please prove me wrong. Like I mention above, it should not take much to do so.

Your entire series of posts can be discredited in this one sentence you have mentioned above. Because here are the facts;

M88 Turbofan

Code: Select all

Length: 353.8 cm (139.3 in)
Diameter: 69.6 cm (27.4 in)
Dry weight: 897 kg (1,978 lb)


GTX-35VS Kaveri

Code: Select all

Length: 3,490.0 mm (137.4 in)
Diameter: 909.3 mm (35.8 in)
Dry weight: 1,236 kg (2,724 lb)


You have created a scenario - entirely based on media reports - that Snecma-Safran was going to pass off a rebadged M88 as a Kaveri. That will not fly with the engineers at GTRE because the M88 cannot fit in the Tejas engine bay. That is a fact. And neither can a Kaveri fit in the engine bay of the Rafale. Compare the numbers of the diameters of both engines. And here are the GE F404 (which flies on the Tejas Mk1 right now) and the GE F414 engine specs. Look at the diameter of both engines and see how awfully close they are to the Kaveri's diameter.

General Electric F404

Code: Select all

Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm)
Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,036 kg)


General Electric F414

Code: Select all

Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm)
Dry weight: 2,445 lb (1,110 kg)


How do you think Snecma-Safran was planning to re-badge a M88 as a Kaveri? The engineers at Snecma-Safran would have never made such a proposal to GTRE, because they fully well knew that it would not fly, both literally and figuratively. And they knew that if they made such a proposal, the engineers at GTRE would have scoffed!

You can hide behind your insinuations and then accuse me (when your posts are challenged) of being personal, but like I said to you earlier ---> You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your facts.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Sep 2018 21:58

Y I Patel wrote:So if all this work was already done, why did Macron come with an offer to use a rebadged M-88 in Rafales instead of the real deal?

You show me one official report that states what you have said. Go ahead and show me. Do not show me a media report!

I know what you are referring to. But please show everyone else what you are claiming to be true.

Y I Patel wrote:Rakesh, I will say this - I cannot ignore you because you are an admin, but I would love to because (a) you are unable to put together nuanced thought, and (b) you cannot argue without making it personal.

In response to A and B;

A ) Do not worry, I will try and use smaller words next time.

B ) I am calling out the nonsense, that you are passing off as fact.

If you are going to say something on BRF, expect to get called out on it.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 09 Sep 2018 22:00

TOI
Sources said Dassault Aviation has already started test flig ..

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst


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