VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Y I Patel
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Y I Patel » 15 Sep 2018 05:29

The direct interjection of serving IAF officers, including the current CAS, is an unprecedented development. This departure from the norm is an unmistakable message that Modi made a choice heavily favoured by IAF. Having serving IAF officers speak in a single voice served to get Modi's message across without him needing to utter a single word: MRCA v1 had to be scrapped because it reached an impasse, the emergency purchase followed a precedent laid down by Indira Gandhi, and the choice of Rafale was influenced by the IAF itself. This is as conclusive as it can get for those whose genuine intent is to seek accountability.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 15 Sep 2018 08:13

In my office we are having discussion on this purchase. All of my colleagues are fixeated on anil Ambani and his deal with Dassault. No amount of facts will change the views that it is just a commercial arrangement between two entities.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 15 Sep 2018 09:40

That the Rafale was properly chosen and the need for it is unquestionable.Something happened between selection, delays due to negotiations and the arrival of the NDA-2.
The former DM, AKA must tell the nation why the deal could not be concluded during his tenure and also the v.high M2K upgrade costs ($2.5B for 50 ), compared with (just $900+M for 67) the upgrade costs of MIG-29s.

Regarding the entry of the R co., just a couple of weeks before the 36 bird deal was announced Dassault's Trappier was lauding its relationship with HAL, after 2 upgraded M2Ks were handed over ( as I've said at $50M a pop!).How the R co.wangled its way into the deal , displacing HAL when it hasn't even flown a paper plane is a mystery.How Dassault lauding HAL then saying it couldn't guarantee an HAL built Rafale is another mystery.
These are regardless of the cost factor which is the bone of contention.
The allegations are that even MP knew little about the contours of the deal and he'd already had a Plan B ( MKIs)
in case negotiations failed.But these facts are shrouded in babudom's red tape, and we all know how the babus love to sadistically stretch out defence deals, often cancelling them after years of tests and evaluation citing protocl and "procedures"!

I do grant the PM credit for cutting the " gordian knot" in the interests of the IAF and the nation's security, as well as maintaining the important relationship with France which never unlike the great chum, the US, imposed sanctions upon us after P-2.The SC verdict yesterday in the infamous ISRO spy scandal ( that never was),and award of 50 lakhs to Nambi N., responsible for smuggling in Ru cryo- engine components for our indigenous engine, set us back a decade thanks to the US, reminds us of the importance of tried and trusted western friends like France and also Russia.

Perhaps a better deal could've been negotiated in retrospect, but the UPA-2 had wasted so much time over sealing the deal , that a decision had to be made.One can't fault the PM over that.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Khalsa » 15 Sep 2018 15:29

Philip wrote:
That the Rafale was properly chosen and the need for it is unquestionable.

The former DM, AKA must tell the nation why the deal could not be concluded during his tenure and also the v.high M2K upgrade costs ($2.5B for 50 ), compared with (just $900+M for 67) the upgrade costs of MIG-29s.

I do grant the PM credit for cutting the " gordian knot" in the interests of the IAF and the nation's security

Aas well as maintaining the important relationship with France which never unlike the great chum, the US, imposed sanctions upon us after P-2.

Perhaps a better deal could've been negotiated in retrospect, but the UPA-2 had wasted so much time over sealing the deal , that a decision had to be made.
One can't fault the PM over that.



See, by saying all of this now I am thinking you are no longer sitting in your private dacha outside Moscow but somewhere close to home.
:D

Phillip, great synopsis up there chief.
Well done, even as a layman I found the M2K upgrade cost hard to understand.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nam » 15 Sep 2018 16:48

Pratyush wrote:In my office we are having discussion on this purchase. All of my colleagues are fixeated on anil Ambani and his deal with Dassault. No amount of facts will change the views that it is just a commercial arrangement between two entities.


This fixation about CT on Reliance is quite fascinating. The ones who ware sure Anil Ambani got the deal due to political connection, would not even blink twice to join Relience Defence, if there are adequate number of zeros in the offer letter... :rotfl:

Hypocrisy is our national past time.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Haridas » 15 Sep 2018 22:46

Philip wrote:Regarding the entry of the R co., just a couple of weeks before the 36 bird deal was announced Dassault's Trappier was lauding its relationship with HAL, after 2 upgraded M2Ks were handed over ( as I've said at $50M a pop!).How the R co.wangled its way into the deal , displacing HAL when it hasn't even flown a paper plane is a mystery.How Dassault lauding HAL then saying it couldn't guarantee an HAL built Rafale is another mystery.


Philip garu, for the 126 MMRCA deal (if we had money in pocket to pay for it) to be like the SU30MKI deal with the HAL was to be local assembler, with no guerentee on quality given by Sukhoi corp, Dassault will certainly be ok with the Chalta Hai business of HAL (lauding its relationship with HAL). OTOH becoming responsible for HAL's quality? the Dassault like any other responsible company will not commit to what the assigned 3rd party assembler builds (crap). (E.g.let's say Bangladesh govt orders 1 million wool suits from Mafatlal, stipulating it will be stitched by Bangladesh govt military entity BAL (Bang Assembly Limited), but wants Mafatlal to be responsible for BAL's quality. Pls check if Mafatlal will take that business?)

Now past the MMRCA MK1 deal that shaitaan Anthony killed, MMRCA mk2 for 36 birds with entirely diff scope for ready made delivery to IAF. The offset clause is for monetary benifit to Indian economy, it is NOT about offset purchase by Dassault from India must be for making Rafale or its parts. Public sector HAL has no exclusive right/need. Reliance co. can sell parachutes, airline cargo racks or door is a commercial decision for Reliance Co to peddle and Dessault to buy. Where does HAL come into picture? Unless you insist that India must follow socialist/communist ethos mandating to allocate military hardware production to Govt entity only. You may wish for it but reality is a bitch different (sic).

A unrelated aspect is option to bribe lyutan and lyutan party, the methods are aplenty and need not require overt commercial corporate deal.

I hear HAL is so super busy sweating (n working overtime) to deliver the helicopters and screwdriver assemble Russian n western license fixed wing A/C. HAL does want more work imposed on it, much less shoot it's own foot by actively winning offset business.
Jmt.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 17 Sep 2018 11:16


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Yagnasri » 17 Sep 2018 11:56

Anil's company did not get contract to work on Rafale. It got part of the investment mandated by the deal along with many other companies (total 72 companies IIRC). The majority shareholder in that JV is the maker of Rafale and not Anil's company.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 18 Sep 2018 18:38

Who is this Sharma goon on PIL?(got adjourned)
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/sc-adj ... 853667.cms

___

Meanwhile...

Some high-level Rafale dogfighting today. Separate press conferences today by current defence minister @NSitharaman & her predecessor AK Antony. We'll tweet out important bits if any. https://t.co/WQOcLQ8cau

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ayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Sep 2018 19:17

I read the broadsides from NS and AKA fired at each other.AKA is trying to make out that the a/c being obtained is the same for which he negotiated a cheaper price.However, he is on v.shaky ground as to why the UPA-2 never sealed the deal, or at least left a clear roadmap for it for the next govt.It had enough time to seal the same.The big Q that must be asked is why didn't it do so? There was some talk allegedly of interference from within the regime by vested interests.

I give you another deal that was sealed by the new govt.That for the Scorpenes.It was the ABV govt. that in '99 approved the 2-line sub acquisition programme.However, the govt. fell and the new UPA-1 regime of which Pranabda was DM ,sealed the deal only in 2005.PC if you remember put a spoke into the wheel , when as FM he protested about the v.high price.What's being played out now is pure politics in the run-up to the 2019 hustings.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Sep 2018 23:48

IAF Deputy Chief, who struck Pakistani intruders in Kargil, to fly Rafale with India specific upgrades tomorrow
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/iaf-deput ... ades-today

According to The Hindu, the IAF has been readying the infrastructure required for the new fleet. Air Force stations in Haryana’s Ambala and West Bengal’s Hasimara will house a squadron (18 planes) each of Rafale fighters. The first squadron of the aircraft will be deployed at Ambala, a strategically located bases of the IAF nearly 220 km from the border with Pakistan. The base is also home to India’s Jaguar fighter-bomber fleet. To house Rafales at the base, the IAF is constructing hangers, hardened concrete shelters and maintenance facilities at these bases. The government has sanctioned Rs 400 crore for this purpose.


Also see this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&p=2293264#p2293264
Rakesh wrote:2) The first "Indian" Rafale is already flying and has the serial number RB008. That is an internal serial number being used by Dassault, as IAF serial numbers for the Rafale are EH (single seater) and DH (dual seater). I am eagerly awaiting to see which serial numbers are delivered first.

This "particular" Rafale will be delivered in April 2022. But she will be flown tomorrow by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar, DCAS. I am hoping to see a picture of the Air Marshal flying this aircraft. I also hope the serial number is on the bird, to corroborate the Indian Express article.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1042285524294230016 ---> The aircraft -- IAF Deputy Chief, Air Marshal Nambiar -- flies tomorrow is a Dassault-owned Rafale testbed sporting the India-specific software & system enhancements. This is separate from the first Rafale for India, scheduled to make its first flight next month.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1042269372167933952 ---> Amidst political storm, IAF Deputy Chief, Air Marshal 'Nambi' Nambiar to front-seat fly a Rafale tomorrow in France. Nambi is well known as being among first test pilots on the LCA Tejas program & flying precision strikes on Tiger Hill during the 1999 Kargil conflict.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 02:59

Columnist slams Shekhar Gupta’s article on the Rafale deal
https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/columni ... fale-deal/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Sep 2018 10:40

I don't know why the GOI doesn't put AKA on the spot if his deal was so good , as he makes it out to be, why didn't he conclude it? A clear instance of dereliction of duty.He was also responsibld for doing b* gger all regarding critically reqd. sub batteries , the shortage leading to an accident in which submarinets lost their lives.The GOI should as the Cong. demands, open a CAG inquiry into this accident if it hasn't already been done and put him on the mat.

Nobody doubts the qualities of the bird. Sorties by sr. iAF officers aren't required at all and only serve to draw attention and give oxygen to the Oppn. allegations.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Sep 2018 15:57

Philip wrote:I don't know why the GOI doesn't put AKA on the spot if his deal was so good , as he makes it out to be, why didn't he conclude it? A clear instance of dereliction of duty.He was also responsibld for doing b* gger all regarding critically reqd. sub batteries , the shortage leading to an accident in which submarinets lost their lives.The GOI should as the Cong. demands, open a CAG inquiry into this accident if it hasn't already been done and put him on the mat.

Nobody doubts the qualities of the bird. Sorties by sr. iAF officers aren't required at all and only serve to draw attention and give oxygen to the Oppn. allegations.

Admiral Filipov I shall drink to that. Never truer words were said.
AK was anything but what the AK is!!!!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 16:01

X posted from the PSU thread

Difficult to find a customer who agrees with what T Suvarna Raju says.

If what he says is true, then why did the current incumbent not open his mouth??

In the end, its all down to "woulda coulda shoulda", and not what he did when he was actually in the chair.

HAL could have built Rafale jets in India, says former boss


HAL could have built Rafale jets in India, says former boss

This is the first time anyone from the state-owned aircraft maker HAL has publicly commented on the questions around the Rafale deal.

Sep 20, 2018
Rahul Singh
New Delhi

Image

A Rafale fighter aircraft flys during the inauguration of the 11th biennial edition of Aero India 2017 in Bengaluru.


State-run plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) could have built Rafale fighters in India had the government managed to close the original negotiations with Dassault and had actually signed a work-share contract with the French company, said T Suvarna Raju, who was heading HAL till three weeks ago. He questioned why the Union government was not putting out the files in public.

He admitted that HAL may not have been able to build the planes at the desired “cost-per-piece”, one of the reasons why that deal fell through, but insisted that the company has the ability to make advanced fighters.

A former air chief, however, said making the Rafale would have been a challenge for the public sector undertaking.

“When HAL can build a 25-tonne Sukhoi-30, a fourth-generation fighter jet that forms the mainstay of the air force, from raw material stage, then what are we talking about? We could have definitely done it (licence produced the Rafale jets),” said Raju, who retired on September 1.

This is the first time anyone from the state-owned aircraft maker has publicly commented on the questions around the deal.

His comments come even as the politics around the Rafale deal show no signs of dying down.

The government and the Congress have been trading charges over the controversial Rs 59,000-crore purchase almost every day. On Tuesday, defence minister Niramala Sitharaman said HAL was “dropped” from the deal when the UPA was in power, because it couldn’t agree on terms of production with Dassault.

The NDA government’s decision to enter into a government-to-government deal with France to buy 36 Rafale warplanes was announced in April 2015 with the deal signed a little over a year later. This replaced the UPA regime’s decision to buy 126 Rafale aircraft, 108 of which were to be made in India by HAL using parts imported from France.

Raju said HAL had maintained the Mirage-2000 aircraft, manufactured by Rafale maker Dassault Aviation, for the last 20 years.

It was also involved in the complex Mirage upgrade programme.

“We would have delivered on the Rafale too. I was the leader of the technical team for five years and everything had been sorted out,” said Raju. On questions related to the cost of India-assembled Rafales being higher, one of the reasons why the UPA could not conclude the negotiations, Raju said making military platforms in India is always a strategic decision and it’s not always about the immediate cost.

“You have to see the life-cycle costs and not the cost per piece of a fighter. Life-cycle costs would have definitely been cheaper. And ultimately it’s about self reliance. There is a learning curve. If the French are making 100 jets in says 100 hours, I will take 200 hours as I am doing it for the first time. I can’t do it in 80 hours. It’s a scientific process,” he said.

He also added that HAL would have been happy to give a guarantee for the aircraft it produced. “Dassault and HAL had signed the mutual work-share contract and given it to the government. Why don’t you ask the government to put the files out in public? The files will tell you everything. If I build the planes, I will guarantee them,” he said.

The earlier deal also fell through because Dassault could not guarantee that HAL would deliver the aircraft it was assembling on time. There was a huge disparity between the time Dassault thought it should take HAL to make the planes in India, and the time HAL said it would take.

Air Chief Marshal AY Tipnis, a former IAF chief, said building Rafales in India would have been a challenging task for the HAL though not impossible with transfer of manufacturing technology from France. “The fact is HAL has not performed to the level it could have. It promises more than it can deliver and quality of work has been substandard in many cases. It has also backtracked on its promises.”

Pricing and guarantee had become intractable problems as pointed out by defence minister Nirmala Sithraman on several occasions, said a defence ministry official, who asked not to be identified.

The NDA government and the Congress locked horns over the controversial Rs 59,000-crore Rafale deal on Tuesday, with Sitharaman asserting that HAL lost out on the chance to build the warplanes because of the UPA regime and former defence minister AK Antony accusing Sitharaman of suppressing facts.

The Rafale deal has become controversial with the opposition, led by the Congress, claiming that the price at which India is buying Rafale aircraft now is Rs 1,670 crore for each, three times the Rs 526 crore, the initial bid by the company when the UPA was trying to buy the aircraft. It has also claimed the previous deal included a technology transfer agreement with HAL. The NDA has not disclosed details of the price, but the UPA deal, struck in 2012, was not a viable one, former defence minister Manohar Parrikar has previously said, implying that it would have never been closed and that, therefore, any comparison is moot. The NDA has said that the current deal also includes customized weaponry.

The deal has also become controversial on account of the fact that one of the offset deals signed by Dassault is with the Reliance Group of Anil Ambani. The Congress claims the earlier deal was scrapped and a new one signed just to provide Ambani this opportunity for an offset deal. Both the government and Reliance have repeatedly denied this. Sniffing an electoral opportunity in the Rafale deal, the Congress has been keeping up the heat on the government through events across the country.

Sep 20, 2018

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 16:06

x posted from the PSU thread

The amerikis and the french not wanting to "risk" partnering with HAL also ensured that tens of thousands of aviation jobs would be retained in their own respective countries to benefit their own workers and economies.



Anand Ranganathan Verified account @ARanganathan72
3h3 hours ago

On the former HAL Chief T Raju's remark, that HAL could have built Rafale jets - yes, what he says should be taken seriously.

But what he DOESN'T say should be taken seriously as well, that EVEN DURING the UPA tenure, Dassault DID NOT want to partner HAL. https://www.thequint.com/news/india/raf ... ty-control



Image




Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control



Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality control


CHANDAN NANDY
22.11.17

The stalemate between the Indian government and French aircraft manufacturing company Dassault over the supply of 126 fourth-generation Rafale fighter jets, was not so much because of pricing as much as the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s (HAL) competence to deliver on quality, top Indian Air Force sources have revealed to The Quint.
Two reports by the then American ambassador to India Timothy Roemer and teams of specialists from Dassault, raised critical questions about low quality standards at the HAL, and constitute the likely reason behind the Narendra Modi government’s decision to let Anil Ambani’s Reliance Defence seal the deal with the French aircraft manufacturing major.
Also Read: Shameful Your Boss is Silencing You on Rafale: Rahul to Sitharaman

“HAL Not Competent to Partner With”

Defence Ministry sources said that Roemer and Dassault, as well as top IAF officers, agree that quality would have been compromised had the HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer.

Roemer’s confidential report to the then US administration under President Barack Obama, just before his tenure as ambassador ended in 2011, said in clear terms that the HAL was not competent to be a partner of either of the two American companies – Boeing and Lockheed Martin – that were keen to bid for India’s medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), purely because it did not meet the quality standards the two US giants sought.

After some French government officials were able to “lay their hands” on Roemer’s report, Dassault executives and specialists sought permission from the Defence Ministry, then under the stewardship of AK Antony of the Congress-led UPA, to visit HAL’s factory in Nashik where the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter jets were being produced at the time.

“Dassault Couldn’t Risk Global Reputation”

Once permission was granted, based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s. Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,” according to top IAF sources.

Dassault submitted its report to the French government in early 2014.

The IAF sources said that at the time, Antony reacted sharply and took the stand that the French government could not change its decision on the Rafale aircraft.

However, the UPA government had little option in the face of Roemer and Dassault’s “scathing” reports.

The sources recalled that talks between the French and Indian governments for the supply of 36 fighter aircraft began a year after the Modi government assumed power in May 2014. By that time, the acquisition of 126 MMRCA aircraft was in a “logjam” primarily because of the HAL’s quality issues.

In April 2015, there was a government-to-government in-principle decision that India would purchase 36 Rafale aircraft in “fly away” condition, and that there would be no manufacturing in India. The final contract was signed in September 2016, with an exclusive clause that there would be no technology transfer to India.

First Published: 20.11.17

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 16:23

Anand Ranganathan Verified account @ARanganathan72
3h3 hours ago

2/n This 2015 article by @VishnuNDTV further highlights the possible technical inadequacies of HAL for building Rafale jets. Perhaps @Iyervval could throw more light on this. https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/ndtv-co ... eal-742368



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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 16:26

Anand Ranganathan Verified account @ARanganathan72
4h4 hours ago

4/n A 2013 report: Dassault REFUSED to take responsibility for HAL-built Rafale jets, insisted on signing separate contracts. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2013-04-05


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 16:29

Anand Ranganathan Verified account @ARanganathan72

n/n To end, these tweets are not a put-down of HAL. Whatever the French or the Americans may say of it, I am PROUD of HAL. It has achieved a lot, given defence tech is seldom shared. I am no expert - purpose was to try & understand a little more of the HAL-Dassault partnership.
11:54 PM - 19 Sep 2018

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 20 Sep 2018 17:37

In-A-Jam Solution

How game changed, calling for new plan



In-A-Jam Solution

How game changed, calling for new plan


VAIJU NARAVANE, 27 APRIL 2015

In-A-Jam Solution

Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to France was not entirely negative for sure. But many are looking at the two major deals announced—outright purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets, and the l&t-Areva agreement for constructing the epr nuclear reactors at Jaitapur in Maha­rashtra—as unmitigated dis­as­ters.

The IAF has been thrown a juicy bone with the government-to-government acquisition of 36 Rafale jets. But this will materialise only two years down the line even if India is quick to sign the contract. Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy, however, suffers a major setback. For Dassault Aviation, though, it’s a thumping victory.

For over three years, the contract for buying 126 Rafale jets had been foundering. In France, the reputation of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is rock-bottom. French defence majors who have worked with HAL describe it as “unprofessional and unreliable in the extreme”. The original plan was to buy 18 aircraft in ready-to-fly condition. HAL was to produce 108 more under licence in India. But Dassault refused to take responsibility for planes manufactured by HAL. Besides, there were disputes over pricing: an off-the-shelf purchase will cost India much more per aircraft than if the original deal had gone through. The actual transfer of technology will be limited and the outright purchase lets Dassault off the hook on that score. French sources place the value of this purchase at over Euro 5.5 billion. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier and his colleagues will be laughing their way to the bank.

Modi’s much-vaunted ‘Make in India’ policy suffers a huge setback. Dassault, however, strikes a Rs 50,000-crore deal.

At one time, India had the French aviation giant in a squeeze. The French defence ministry had curtailed its order for Rafales from 11 aircraft per year to just 26 over the next six years. Dassault badly needed the oxygen of foreign sales. India thought it could press the company for an even better deal: but there comes a point beyond which negotiations stall. The IAF badly needs the fighters: the government should have been careful not to push to the brink. On February 12, France announced the sale of 24 Rafales to Egypt, to be bankrolled by Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Now, Dassault was in a dramatically better bargaining position. No longer did it have to accommodate New Delhi’s manoeuvring over prices or over manufacturing by HAL. Dassault could afford to drag out the negotiations.

In India, pressure was building up. Paris told New Delhi that failure of the Rafale contract could seriously dent Indo-French relations. The IAF, realising the deal could collapse, raised the ante. And French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian made three trips to Delhi between December and March. In December, the India defence minister had told Le Drian he would accelerate the process. By February, the tide turned against India. In March, New Delhi told Paris that in the face of Dassault’s newfound intransigence, another urgent solution had to be found—outright purchase. On April 7, French President Francois Hollande and Le Drian discussed and finalised their response to New Delhi. It was kept secret: even HAL chairman and CEO T. Suvarna Raju learnt of the purchase from the newspapers while in Paris.

Insiders in the defence industry say other producers and suppliers would also have been reluctant to accept the global tender route, especially if HAL conditionality was retained. Also, they said, the Indian private sector is not yet equipped to collaborate on high-tech projects such as making sophisticated fighter jets. A specialist defence journalist says, in the short run, Modi’s ‘Make in India’ ambitions are unrealistic.

For India, the relationship with France is crucial. Though a middle-level power, France is a defence major, and can provide high-tech products and services in infrastructure, transport and waste disposal and in the fields of nano, nuclear and space technologies. France is also a permanent member of the un Security Council; New Delhi is counting on French support for its membership bid. But that’s another matter. Many political observers are of the opinion that, given the nature of Paris’s own vested interest in the status quo on UNSC membership and its close ties with Germany, it’s doubtful if France will go the extra mile for India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kakarat » 20 Sep 2018 18:52

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1042762857019002881

Strapped into a Rafale testbed jet a few hours ago for his sortie in Istres, France, here’s IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Nambiar.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kakarat » 20 Sep 2018 19:03

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/10 ... 7618381825
Here’s IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar at the Istres air base in France today right before his hour-long sortie in a Rafale.


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rahul M » 20 Sep 2018 19:29

The very fact of AM Nambiar becoming DCAS is a testament of the progress in IAF's thought process regarding involvement in domestic projects. I remember him from his LCA flight testing days.
AM Philip Rajkumar had just published the Tejas story and shiv Ji very kindly saved a signed copy, which another BRFite joey collected for me. AM Rajkumar mentioned the stepmother treatment the IAF meted out to the ones involved with tejas, assuming they were leading a easy life. I remember reading about pilots like AM Nambiar and others and wondering how their career would pan out, given the distorted glasses desi projects were viewed by IAF. Extremely gratifying to see the approach in the new IAF which does not allow pre conceived notions to prejudice manpower decisions.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 19:33

Very nice pictures. Folks, the Rafale in that picture is the reportedly the first Indian Rafale. Great moment!

Personally, I am happy that the first Indian Rafale is a two seat variant. I wish the IAF got all twin seaters onlee :)

Hopefully there are more pictures that will come...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Sep 2018 19:52

Tx. guys for those detailed reports on the issue.I can only say after reading them that the issue of HAL built quality is a legitimate one, but HAL has churned out hundreds of top line Ru/ Sov. aircraft starting from SKD, CKD to desi raw material production.True, it will take longer and cost a bit more than a firang import, but if we do not support our own aviation industry we will be perpetual importers building nothing at home , not even with screwdrivers.
Given the 30 to 40 yr. lifespan of an aircraft, surely in time local manufacture of components to the OEM desired quality would be achieved.But continuous badmouthing HAL our only fighter aircraft manufacturer able to build MKIs with 70% of local raw material , is bad for business by Dassault and endanger future large orders.Look at HAL's offer to build 40+ more MKIs at very reasonable cost.

The former regime could've surely fast-tracked the deal after selection using the same method with which we acquired the MKIs, SKD, CKD and then manufacture with increasing amounts of locally sourced raw material.Dassault could've been given an ultimatum as the Typhoon was the other option and BAe could've been approached on the same issue ( to put pressure upon Dassault) ,after all they have a long history of Brit. fighters being built in India by HAL from Gnats, Jags and Hawks.

The NDA-2 and the PM rescued the deadlocked deal and critical req. of the IAF from AKA's signal incompetence.in concluding the deal after the IAF had done a great job in the technical evaluation ,shortlisting the Raffy and Typhoon, where the Raffy won on better pricing.
This " controversy" is serving to highlight the utter uselessness of AKA as our Def.Min. whose disastrous tenure has cost the nation immensely in time and lives lost not to mention huge extra costs by his dhoti fiddling
on these burning issues.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 20 Sep 2018 23:14

Rakesh wrote: Folks, the Rafale in that picture is the reportedly the first Indian Rafale.

It's not. This is a test aircraft with India-specific upgrades. The first Rafale for IAF is not yet ready to fly. Soon, though.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 23:23

Indranil wrote:
Rakesh wrote: Folks, the Rafale in that picture is the reportedly the first Indian Rafale.

It's not. This is a test aircraft with India-specific upgrades. The first Rafale for IAF is not yet ready to fly. Soon, though.

I got that info from below. Can we please confirm again?

First Rafale for India being flight-tested in France, only one will arrive custom-made
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... e-5345837/

Sources said one of the 36 Rafale aircraft to be supplied to India had commenced test-flying in France last month. India-Specific Enhancements are being flight-tested on this fighter jet, sources added, which is a two-seater Rafale aircraft (RB008). The testing of this aircraft will continue until April 2022, sources said, when it will be ready to be delivered to India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 23:42

Indranil, do not bother. You are correct. I found these right now....

IAF tests Rafale with India-specific enchancements
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 890063.cms

IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar flew the Rafale, a 17-year-old aircraft that is being used as a “testbed” for the 14 India-specific upgrades the IAF has asked for, in an 80-minute sortie at the Istres air base in France on Thursday.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/10 ... 9415359488 ---> BTW, IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar flew a Rafale that is 17-year-old and is being used as a “testbed” for the 14 India-specific upgrades the IAF has asked for! It’s not the first new #Rafale made for India!

IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar flies Rafale jet in France as political slugfest continues in India
http://zeenews.india.com/india/iaf-depu ... 42430.html

....the IAF Deputy Chief completed a front-seat sortie in a Rafale at the Istres air base in France. He flew a Dassault-owned Rafale testbed sporting the India-specific software and system enhancements, separate from the first Rafale for India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 23:44

Notice the ASTE patch on Air Marshal Nambiar's flight suit.

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 1236247558 ----> Air Marshal Nambiar getting briefed ahead of his Rafale sortie.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 23:51

https://twitter.com/iPragatiJain/status ... 5083065345 ----> Air Marshal R. Nambiar, Deputy Chief flying first Indian Rafale in France. The expression on his face shows how much happy he is after flying that jet. The happiness which Congress could never give for a decade. :lol:

https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/statu ... 9233868800 ---> Indian Air Force Deputy Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal Raghunath ‘Nambi’ Nambiar on Thursday took a test flight of the Rafale fighter aircraft in France. Indian Air Force is thrilled after this test flight. One hour sortie at Istres airfield. Game changer for India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2018 23:58

VIDEO: https://twitter.com/Sayan_Pratyush/stat ... 7998657537 ---> Indian Air force Deputy Chief, Air Marshal R. Nambiar on Rafale deal. Now its on public that whom they trust Rahul Gandhi or IAF Officer?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 00:10

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 1314244613 ---> Here's IAF Deputy Chief, Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar onboard Rafale test bed in France. I like that strap on the wrist. After my Mirage ejection is it?

For anyone who does not know, Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd) is a former M2K pilot who ejected from a twin-seat Mirage 2000 in Feb 2012. I believe he was one of the pilots who ferried the first batch of M2Ks from France to India in 1985.

‘Time To Go, Ram’: When an Indian Air Marshal punched out of a Mirage 2000
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2014/10 ... arsha.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 21 Sep 2018 00:12

Rakesh wrote:IAF tests Rafale with India-specific enchancements
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 890063.cms

IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar flew the Rafale, a 17-year-old aircraft that is being used as a “testbed” for the 14 India-specific upgrades the IAF has asked for, in an 80-minute sortie at the Istres air base in France on Thursday.

^^^17 year old.

I'm sure this will further kick up many suffering minds.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 00:14

SaiK wrote:^^^17 year old.

I'm sure this will further kick up many suffering minds.

:lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 00:21

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1042616503798050816 ---> Wish the author had pushed the interviewee on why, to date, HAL has taken more man hours to produce aircraft and at significantly greater cost than OEM’s, negating the case for indegenisation. Also missing the required capital for modernising HAL (HUGE).

HAL could have built Rafale jets in India, says former boss
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Y97YI.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 00:24

https://twitter.com/ARanganathan72/stat ... 9731333120 ----> On the former HAL Chief T Raju's remark, that HAL could have built Rafale jets - yes, what he says should be taken seriously. But what he DOESN'T say should be taken seriously as well, that EVEN DURING the UPA tenure, Dassault DID NOT want to partner HAL.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 00:25

FYI...the info on Tejas production numbers below is dated.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1042793255686086656 ----> Bingo. The US Ambassador, Tim Roemer was APPALLED at the state of HAL. The planes they have built are metal, LCA is the only composite and they cant produce more than 3 a year with ATROCIOUS quality control. HAL resists as modernisation = redundancies.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2018 02:07

The expert of aircraft design, manufacture, management and QC has spoken.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Srutayus » 21 Sep 2018 03:05

I can see why the IAF is so reluctant to back HAL programs.
But it is better to look forward to what can be done with HAL, especially after this government has leaned hard on the IAF to give them a chance with the Tejas.
Not easy to say this when it is the IAF is who has to fly these aircraft into battle. But we have little choice. And while it is difficult to persuade a established foreign company like Dassault to take a chance with their product, the LCA, small and domestically designed whose design is owned by the GOI, is the ideal candidate for HAL to establish themselves to where a captive customer is not the only customer.
One hopes that they are candid, face up to the issues they have, and use the LCA program to earn the IAF's trust.

The political muck-raising around the Rafale by the Congress party has certainly not helped the process by forcing these issues into the open to where people are now forced to take stands instead of owning up and addressing the issues.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2018 03:21

Rafale Would Revolutionise Airpower In Our Sub- Continent: IAF Deputy Chief, Air Marshal R. Nambiar



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