VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 19 Dec 2018 09:00

The above article has quite a few flaws, especially wrt the Tejas and how war will be fought.
eg
But let's say the IAF wants to vector a couple of aircraft to intercept a Pakistani JF-17 intruder. The IAF's fighter of choice against this Chinese knockoff is likely to be the MiG-21 or Mirage-2000 rather than the Sukhoi. While the Sukhoi can do the job, it would be inefficient to use a strategic aircraft in a low-intensity mission. Also, sending an aircraft that weighs over 18,000 kg (unloaded) against the comparatively tiny JF-17 (6400 kg) would be an exercise in overkill.


The IAF will send whichever aircraft is available. I highly doubt the IAF sends up aircraft based on opponent weight class.

the Tejas is light years behind the Rafale


Not really. While the aircraft certainly can improve, its not exactly a Sopwith Camel.

One of the little-known facts about the Gripen is that it was the IAF's first choice when it was looking for an advanced jet fighter in the late 1970s.


No, it was the Viggen. The Gripen didnt exist in the 70s.

More than 1,700 of these aircraft have been built and the production line continues to produce odd batches for countries that cannot afford modern jets. .... However, the F-16 was developed in the seventies and does not really meet the IAF's quest for the latest aerospace technology.


It has and had an AESA at the time of the competition, unlike the other competitors, apart from other upgrades. Limited in terms of growth but probably the one with most mature tech.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Dec 2018 18:11

^^the article is probably the only structured and non biased argument put forth. It has flaws, but it is still better than the famed journos as it stands on the feet of logical arguments that are simple to understand.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 20 Dec 2018 09:34

On the analysis for choosing the Raffy, perfect logic.
The dilly-dallying by "the Saint", not wanting to get his dhoti dirty lost us 126 Raffys after IAF selection.One birdie told me many moons ago that a certain influential Delhi " biker" was also trying to derail the deal, to bring in another type, why it was not concluded during Snake- Oil's tenure. The new regime of Mr.Modi had no choice but to cut the gordian knot.The only criticism that could be levelled against the decision is on the cost and the R co.

Here , it is clear that absorbing advanced aero tech is v.difficult both in the public and pvt. sector, why the TOT aspect was deferred in place of a direct buy including guaranteed support.One reason why the FGFA deal also fell through, inability to absorb tech plus lack of HR.
HAL struggling to produce Tejas speaks for itself.One can argue on cost for every deal down the decades , but it is the perogative of the govt. of the day to take urgent decisions in the national interest.As for the R co.Pip. has been in the doghouse for delays of warships, but the R co. has the resources and infra. required to set up an offset entity.What is not being mentioned enough is Dassault's guarantee of the product delivered on time.Ultimately that's what matters.

The poliyicat hoo-ha going on about the deal is fast going downhill and will be buried swiftly.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Muns » 20 Dec 2018 10:13

Hi guys, in order to get more mileage and rub salt into the wounds of the Congress party especially Rahul Gandhi on Supreme Court's verdict we decided to get a few public opinions around Delhi regarding Rahul and his failed attempt at trying to create a story out of nothing really regarding Rafale.
I think it is a hard-hitting interview by residents of Delhi regarding Rahul Gandhi's failed attempt in trying to create a scam where none ever existed.

Some of the questions that I tried to ask in the video ;

1) Does a lie repeated 1000 times ever hold any truth?
2) Should Rahul Gandhi apologize to both PM Modi as well as Dassault CEO Trappier for calling Modi a chor and Trappier a liar?
3) How do you feel about politicians that compromise India's national security, especially against Pakistan and China for votes?
4) Knowing this about Rahul Gandhi do you expect him to get your vote in 2019?

On some level I honestly feel the greatest threat to India's national for the next four months is not really Pakistan or China, but the damage Rahul could do to national security if elected to power. A glimpse to come is already seen in the recent state elections.

Supreme Court Slams Rahul Gandhi's fake lies on Rafale.



The video has captions. Take a look and provide us some feedback. Also like, subscribe, and share. 2019 isn't too far off and it's time to try and make a stand.

http://www.youtube.com/c/indiaaware

http://www.india-aware.com

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby saip » 20 Dec 2018 11:06

Just a nit pick. 'Fake lies' don't they mean truths?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Muns » 20 Dec 2018 11:28

You mean like a double negative? :shock: To be honest really never thought of that. I tried to emphasize, I guess the fakeness of the lies and came out as fake lies.I'll be a little bit more careful when I create these headings the next time. Thanks for pointing out.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 08:19

When your *OWN* Air Force leadership tells you that the Rafale was a clean deal - prior to the SC verdict - how can one believe that there was a scam? The Air Chief is now commenting on SC verdict below, but he commented on this deal even prior to the verdict. Air Marshal Nambiar, did the same. Air Marshal SBP Sinha, again did the same. And the list goes on. And both Air Marshals were on the Indian Rafale negotiating team.

Military Personnel have no skin in the game politically. They could care less about politics. How deluded must one be to think there really is a scam?

‘Rafale Is A Game Changer For Us, We Need It Desperately’: Indian Air Force Chief B S Dhanoa Hails SC Order
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/rafale-is ... s-sc-order

Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa welcomed the Supreme Court verdict on Rafale jet deal and said the Indian Air Force needs the fighter aircraft badly. “Who says we don't need Rafale? The govt says we need Rafale, we are saying we need Rafale, the SC has given a fine judgment, it took us so long that our adversaries have already upgraded their system Rafale is a game changer”.

"I am not going to comment on the judgement but the Supreme Court has given a very fine judgement. It has also said that this plane is badly needed," he told reporters in Jodhpur.

"We need it, given our strategic scenario", he said.

He backed the government's assertion that revealing details on the price of the fully-loaded aircraft would lead to rivals getting to know its capabilities. He said the taxpayers have the right to know where their money goes, but the Comptroller and Auditor General of India (CAG) was there to ensure that it was being well spent.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 08:42

The *GREAT* service of the Congress Party in full view. In their desperate attempt to provide *GREAT* service to the people of India, a senior Congress party official accuses the Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa of lying! Wow :roll:

Rafale deal: Congress leader Moily accuses IAF chief of lying, suppressing the truth
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 176956.cms

"In government records, the defence ministry and IAF chief wanted HAL to be involved. IAF chief at that time visited HAL with Dassault and found it (HAL) competent and declared that they have the expertise. I think IAF chief (Dhanoa) is not fine, he is lying, he is suppressing the truth," Moily was quoted as saying by news agency ANI.

Can someone please ask Moily why Dassault told AK Anthony that they cannot guarantee a HAL built Rafale? That should be there in the govt record too, no? :)

"The question is, is he justifying it on the basis of the Supreme Court judgement which is flawed? In the light of this, whether the IAF chief can again certify that this is fine. I am asking him that question. I never called him a liar. If this HAL is fine ... Both of them cannot be fine," Moily said.

Is that not what you just said above? :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 08:47

Air HQ is livid and rightfully so....

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 5218400256 ---> There is complete outrage at Air Headquarters over this remark. Senior IAF officers say they don't have the mandate to respond to the political allegation made by Mr Moily that the Air Chief is a liar because of his views on Rafale. A new low in the Rafale discourse.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Dec 2018 20:32

https://twitter.com/BTVI/status/1076102694622904321 ---> The Congress Speaks Without Thinking, writes Finance Minister Arun Jaitley.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Dec 2018 20:38

Chidambaram advising IAF chief to stay away from debate? What happened to his FoE/FoS

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Dec 2018 05:22

Ok now this is big....

Reliance To Be Out Of Rafale Deal If Congress Wins Polls: Veerappa Moily
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/relianc ... ly-1966450

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 24 Dec 2018 08:43

I've said before, chiefs and high- ranking service officers musn't get dragged into a political spat with turds flying.
The IAF if it wants to counter fake news should appoint an official spokesman, say of the rank of Air Cmde., to send out its viewpoint and preferably in press releases. This will insulate the top brass from a witch hunt and personal mud-slinging by a furious Cong. for example.

Same advice for the IA and IN too.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Dec 2018 02:29

Amid political battle over Rafale, government makes 25% payment for fighter jets
http://zeenews.india.com/india/amid-pol ... 66329.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Dec 2018 02:50


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 30 Dec 2018 23:06

VIDEO

India gets ready for 1st Rafale batch, Is Rafale a strategic gamechanger?
https://www.timesnownews.com/videos/new ... ture/19319

Maroof Raza also stating that 2 - 4 additional MMRCA squadrons would be ideal for the IAF to bring up the strength to approx 38 squadrons. #MoreRafalesforIAF :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jan 2019 23:01

RaGa and the Congress Party continuing their *GREAT* service to the nation :lol:

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1080384988087021569 ---> In his opening attack on the Rafale deal, Rahul Gandhi lists the Mirage 2000 as an HAL-built aircraft along with the Gnat and MiG-27. ❎ Incorrect. The Mirage 2000 has never been built in India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 01:55

Fact Check: Here are facts of the Rafale deal that are being selectively ignored by politicians
https://www.opindia.com/2018/09/fact-ch ... liticians/

Yes, Anil Ambani got a contract for making parts for a legacy business jet that aviation operators and high net worth individuals buy, not a modern 4.5 generation Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft that Indan government is buying.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 01:56

Rahul Gandhi refuses to authenticate the ‘Rafale tape’, brazens it out in the Parliament
https://www.opindia.com/2019/01/rahul-g ... arliament/

Cornered on facts, Congress started disrupting the debate and threw paper planes.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jan 2019 02:40

Indian National Congress's hand in US scam; leader helped Rafale's rival Boeing
https://www.mynation.com/news/boeing-co ... ale-pkpaaz

The more-than-coincidental closeness between US arms major Boeing and India’s Congress led by Rahul Gandhi raises insidious questions about whether a defence bigwig is pulling strings from behind the scenes of Indian politics raging over a phantom controversy.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2019 12:40

Arun Jaitley hints at the Eurofighter pandora’s box during his scathing speech countering Rahul Gandhi’s Rafale allegations

Arun Jaitley hints at the Eurofighter pandora’s box during his scathing speech countering Rahul Gandhi’s Rafale allegations

Jaitley added fuel to the speculation that Congress is attacking the Rafale on behalf of its competitor Eurofighter Typhoon

OPINDIA STAFF
JANUARY 2, 2019

Participating in the debate on Rafale deal in Lok Sabha, finance minister Arun Jaitley presented a strong defence on behalf of the government, and demolished the various allegations that Congress party has been making about the deal. During his speech, Jaitley made a very interesting reference about Eurofighter, which had lost out to Rafale in the bid to supply the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to India.

Speculating about why Congress party may be trying to scuttle the Rafale deal, Jaitley commented that the speciality about UPA decision making is that “if the aircraft being selected is not the one whose commerce you have dealt with then delay the transaction, make it impossible”. He was hinting that while the tendering process for the purchase of 126 fighter aircraft was going on, Congress party was already negotiating with one of the bidders. But all those backroom deals went haywire when Rafale emerged as the winner after extensive evaluation by experts, which included the Indian Air Force.

FM Arun Jaitley in Lok Sabha: There is a speciality about UPA in decision making that is if the aircraft being selected is not the one whose commerce you have dealt with then delay the transaction, make it impossible

— ANI (@ANI) January 2, 2019

This should be noted that although Rafale was declared as the winner of the bid, the deal never proceeded from that point and the UPA government did not sign any deal with Dassault to purchase the Rafale aircraft, although IAF was in desperate need of fighter jets in view of depleting squadron numbers.

Arun Jaitley informed the Lok Sabha that after Rafale had won the deal, the then defence minister’s colleagues were “pressuring him to not accept Rafale”. He said it was because of this pressure, that A. K. Antony had written in his file that the Dassault Rafale is fine, but the process by which they were considered as lowest bidder should be re-examined. Jaitley said that this was informed by IAF after the Modi government came to power.

During the speech of Jaitley in Lok Sabha, some Congress MPs were seen flying paper planes in the house. When the speaker of the house Sumitra Mahajan scolded the MPs for doing so, Jaitley quipped that these paper planes are being thrown in memory of the Eurofighter deal, making an almost direct accusation that Congress was batting on behalf of the European consortium which makes the Eurofighter Typhoon jet.

#WATCH Moment when Congress MPs threw paper planes towards FM Arun Jaitley while he was speaking during #Rafaledeal debate in Lok Sabha (Source:LS TV) pic.twitter.com/4LuuBIUSPU

— ANI (@ANI) January 2, 2019
(https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1080413441393872897)

Although this is the first time a probable Eurofighter link in the Rafale allegations was raised in the Parliament, it was being rumoured for some time. Earlier, it was alleged that Eurofighter sales director had met senior leaders of two political parties in India to raise allegations of a scam in the Rafale deal. It is also rumoured that Rahul Gandhi had met the company officials when he was in Germany in August 2018. According to allegations, the narrative against the Rafale deal has been built up by experts in the US and Europe, based on inputs from Eurofighter.

The mention of Eurofighter by the Finance Minister in the Lok Sabha indicates a change of gear by the NDA government. So far, the almost daily allegations by Congress party and activists against the Rafale deal was countered by the government sporadically. But in recent weeks, there is a marked increase in aggression against the Congress party. BJP stepped up its attacks on the AgustaWestland deal following the extradition of middleman Christian Michel to India, and Michel’s revelations about ‘Mrs Gandhi’, ‘Italian lady’s son R’ etc to the ED.

On the other hand, the noose is tightening around arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari, a close associate of Robert Vadra. He has been hiding in UK since sensitive defence documents were recovered from his residence during an Income Tax raid. He had also tried to forge a tie-up with Dassault, but the French aviation company refused after his links with Vadra was known to them. Recently, several establishments and persons linked with Vadra and Bhandari were raided by ED, and a look-out notice was issued by the agency against one executive assistant of Robert Vadra.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 03 Jan 2019 19:17

Only video you need to watch on Rafale Deal

https://twitter.com/iAnkurSingh/status/1080427688844804096

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2019 21:47

Behind all that there is Boeing (F-18) with links to Congress party.
Recent expose of scam to mfg Titanium in Andhra Pradesh.
And behind that is DT who wants to kill all competition to US fighter mfg industry.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jan 2019 03:17

ramana wrote:Behind all that there is Boeing (F-18) with links to Congress party.
Recent expose of scam to mfg Titanium in Andhra Pradesh.
And behind that is DT who wants to kill all competition to US fighter mfg industry.

Well said Ramana-ji. And then we have folks on BRF who claim that the Rahul Gandhi and the Congress Party are doing great service for the nation. Rafale is a pooh-pooh aircraft and will be obsolete by 2036. Snecma-Safran is pulling a fast one on India by offering a repackaged M88. Never mind that their beloved America recently gave India the middle finger on the JETJWG. That is also India's fault onlee and Amreeka is the Saint! We are not worthy to be America's partner. BRF is narrow minded and short sighted! :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 04 Jan 2019 03:50

Deconstructing the Rafale Ambiguity
http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... biguity/0/

If procured, the total cost of 126 Rafales (including the total life cycle cost) would have chocked IAF’s budget for years, may be a decade considering the inflation and falling rupee (Euro got strengthened by almost 13% since Aug 2016).


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2019 02:06

Indian Air Force To Deploy Rafale Jets In Ambala, Hashimara
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/indian- ... ra-1972607

The Indian Air Force will deploy one each squadron of the Rafale combat aircraft at its airbases in Ambala in Haryana and Hashimara in Bengal. "The first Rafale would be handed over to the Indian Air Force in September 2019 but it would be required to undergo intensive 1,500 hours of testing to validate the India Specific Enhancements on it. So the first batch of the four Rafale fighter planes would arrive at Ambala around May 2020," senior Indian Air Force officials said. Infrastructure for housing both the squadrons has been completed at both the bases. In September 2016, India signed a deal with the French government and Dassault Aviation to acquire 36 Rafale fighter jets for over Euro 7.8 billion to arrest the fall of combat squadrons and meet urgent requirements on the eastern and western fronts. The plan to deploy one squadron of the planes at the Saraswat air base in Uttar Pradesh did not work out due to land acquisition issues. Ambala base has been housing Jaguar aircraft squadrons mainly looking after the Pakistan front but due to rapid deployment capabilities, the planes can be utilised on both the fronts in case of requirement. The Hashimara air base in Bengal is close to the China border and was home to the MiG 27 fighters which are being phased out now. Once inducted, the Rafales would be the most potent fighters of the Air Force but the mainstay would be the Su-30MKIs-272 which would be in service by the year 2021-22. The Air Force rates the Rafale much higher than the Su-30MKIs in terms of capabilities, and has been making a case for the increased number of Rafale type multi-role fighters

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Haridas » 06 Jan 2019 04:37

Rakesh wrote:Well said Ramana-ji. And then we have folks on BRF who claim that the Rahul Gandhi and the Congress Party are doing great service for the nation. Rafale is a pooh-pooh aircraft and will be obsolete by 2036. Snecma-Safran is pulling a fast one on India by offering a repackaged M88. Never mind that their beloved America recently gave India the middle finger on the JETJWG. That is also India's fault onlee and Amreeka is the Saint! We are not worthy to be America's partner. BRF is narrow minded and short sighted! :lol:


You sound like a Rashtrawaadi Extremist !
Fear the day when Congress comes back to power, it will chew your butt. :twisted:
Last edited by Haridas on 06 Jan 2019 05:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 06 Jan 2019 04:41

The admiral is far far away from their petty shenanigans.
For all he is concerned, they can kiss his butt. :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Haridas » 06 Jan 2019 05:30

Karan M wrote:The admiral is far far away from their petty shenanigans.
For all he is concerned, they can kiss his butt. :lol:

Some hit squad may still find his hide (sic) and demand "mithai" equal to the weight of Akula/INS Chakra.

Admiral won't find deep enough water to hide his hide. :((

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby yensoy » 06 Jan 2019 19:48



Watch starting around 12:15... is there a hint that 36 Rafales may not be the end of it?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2019 20:04

Haridas wrote:You sound like a Rashtrawaadi Extremist !
Fear the day when Congress comes back to power, it will chew your butt. :twisted:

I would be surprised that they would waste their time on me. Let me get my head out of the clouds and come back to earth :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2019 20:07

yensoy wrote:Watch starting around 12:15... is there a hint that 36 Rafales may not be the end of it?

I hope so!

Never before have I seen such a dramatic (and well deserved) take down of the Congress' claims. Excellent job by Minister Jaitley.

Even Defence Minister Sitharaman...my goodness...what a performance! Kudos to her. She is amazing!


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 06 Jan 2019 20:21

If any of you have Amazon Prime, please watch this video. Fairly recent (2016 vintage), but a great documentary.

Rafale: Top Secret Plane
https://www.amazon.com/Rafale-Secret-Pl ... B07C8QQTGT

You get to see some of the Rafale manufacturing process and you will understand why Dassault calculated it would cost 2.7x man hours to manufacture the Rafale at HAL in India versus at Dassault's factory at Mérignac in France. The build process is ridiculously complex and HAL has never done something like this. This goes way beyond screwdrivergiri.

Another part of the video I want to mention was that every square inch of the Rafale is closely examined after a flight. A maintenance crew member of a French Rafale unit uses a sander (or grinder) to smoothen out the airframe after a flight. That crew member was also highlighting the robust build quality of the Rafale. After a flight, a Rafale came in with a large watermelon sized hole above the left air intake. More than likely a bird strike.

They were showing an airbase where ~ 50 French Air Force Rafales were stationed. They have a flight of hawks (not the plane, the actual bird!) to scare off other birds who might visit the vicinity during their travels. They have trained personnel for this stationed at the air base to manage these hawks and flights occur daily. They showed one incident of a hawk scaring off a crow that happened to visit the air base.

Another interesting thing I learnt - which I never knew until I saw the video - was that the French Air Force considers operational Rafale pilots to be prime terrorist targets and thus their faces are purposefully blurred through out the documentary. The few pilot's faces they showed was of a display pilot (who visits air shows showcasing the Rafale) and the base commander.

An amazing documentary, an amazing plane and an amazing set of air and ground crew of the French Air Force who fly them. The Indian Air Force has made an excellent choice with the Rafale and this video only cements that notion. Must watch!

P.S. ---> Those canards on the Rafale move automatically! The pilot does not control them. All this while, I thought it was pilot controlled! The on-board computer makes all the calculations and moves the canards so the plane is always stable and there is always airflow to the wings. The pilot only flies the plane!

P.S. 2.0 ---> And for a very tiny second, I saw the display pilot pulling a 10 g maneuver! I saw that number on the HUD. I learnt about positive (blood rushes to the feet) and negative (blood rushes to the head) G forces and how negative G forces could have a detrimental effect on the body.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby naruto » 07 Jan 2019 09:10

Rakesh wrote:If any of you have Amazon Prime, please watch this video. Fairly recent (2016 vintage), but a great documentary.

Rakesh ji, can I share your comments about this documentary in my friends whatsapp group, my intention is to encourage them to watch it as they have amazon prime.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_P » 07 Jan 2019 10:16

Rakesh wrote:If any of you have Amazon Prime, please watch this video. Fairly recent (2016 vintage), but a great documentary.

Rafale: Top Secret Plane
https://www.amazon.com/Rafale-Secret-Pl ... B07C8QQTGT


Dang. I did come across the video in my list some time ago but gave it a miss thinking it was a 'B' grade french movie :((

I shall check it out later today

Incidentally Hush-Kit twitter handle is running a poll on which is the more beautiful looking bird - the Rafale or the Typhoon.

No prizes for guessing who is winning the poll.

I voted typhoon.. sacrilege, i know. It's just that while i do prefer curves in the opposite gender, i find angular edgy-wedgy aircraft more striking :oops:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 07 Jan 2019 15:21

There are no good English documentaries on Rafale. I tried finding even anything French with subtitles on YouTube couple of times, to no avail. Anything is very welcome. Unfortunately, I don't have prime anymore. Let me see if its available in other place.

Some questions and comments.

Rakesh wrote:If any of you have Amazon Prime, please watch this video. Fairly recent (2016 vintage), but a great documentary.

Rafale: Top Secret Plane
https://www.amazon.com/Rafale-Secret-Pl ... B07C8QQTGT

You get to see some of the Rafale manufacturing process and you will understand why Dassault calculated it would cost 2.7x man hours to manufacture the Rafale at HAL in India versus at Dassault's factory at Mérignac in France. The build process is ridiculously complex and HAL has never done something like this. This goes way beyond screwdrivergiri.


IIRC it was HAL who quoted that figure from their side, wasn't Dassaults estimation. I wrote a post in this thread some time back on why I think that figure I feel is reasonable and even if it was Boeing or LM taking up Rafale manufacturing they would have quoted similar number.

But more importantly, how exactly you deduced that the process is "ridiculously complex"..? I mean to say, every fighter or civilian jet, bar none, have ridiculously complex manufacturing process. How does one for Rafale stand vis-à-vis other fighter manufacturing..? In fact if its significantly more complex than other Fighters' then it can be considered as a "bad" design - something which has no good manufacturability. Anyway Europeans have a habit of doing things in a complicated manner. So its expected to some extent, but certainly not something which is not in the ballpark for typical fighter.

Rakesh wrote:Another part of the video I want to mention was that every square inch of the Rafale is closely examined after a flight. A maintenance crew member of a French Rafale unit uses a sander (or grinder) to smoothen out the airframe after a flight. That crew member was also highlighting the robust build quality of the Rafale. After a flight, a Rafale came in with a large watermelon sized hole above the left air intake. More than likely a bird strike..


Thant's interesting. I think it hints at LO skin of Rafale. :wink: Nothing else can demand such check or grinding.


Rakesh wrote: They were showing an airbase where ~ 50 French Air Force Rafales were stationed. They have a flight of hawks (not the plane, the actual bird!) to scare off other birds who might visit the vicinity during their travels. They have trained personnel for this stationed at the air base to manage these hawks and flights occur daily. They showed one incident of a hawk scaring off a crow that happened to visit the air base.

I have seen one other airbase using similar tactics. Can't remember which. That famous hotel in Dubai also uses hawks from scaring the bird so they don't take a dump on the hotel glass walls. ;) Some other tactics include using loud speakers emitting certain frequencies or sound of predators who typically hunt the birds which you are trying to scare. I wonder what IAF does. :?:

Rakesh wrote:
P.S. ---> Those canards on the Rafale move automatically! The pilot does not control them. All this while, I thought it was pilot controlled! The on-board computer makes all the calculations and moves the canards so the plane is always stable and there is always airflow to the wings. The pilot only flies the plane!

In FBW there is nothing that pilot actually controls directly. But I get your point. Typically canard control has to deal with the fight between stability and controllability requirements. Decoupling the Canard from pilot inputs perhaps eliminates this fight. But cant be sure unless we know details of control system.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 07 Jan 2019 15:50

JayS wrote:Thant's interesting. I think it hints at LO skin of Rafale. :wink: Nothing else can demand such check or grinding.




There is adherence to Low Observability in the design of the Rafale. In fact, the Typhoon, Super Hornet and the Rafale are designed to minimize the signature within the current design constraints and this includes final inspections to make sure it meets the desired standards of finish. While not the strict design, manufacturing and inspection and validation procedures followed on 5th gen fighters, these have come a long way from what was done on 4th generation aircraft manufactured in the 80's and 90's.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 07 Jan 2019 15:57

brar_w wrote:
JayS wrote:Thant's interesting. I think it hints at LO skin of Rafale. :wink: Nothing else can demand such check or grinding.




There is adherence to Low Observability in the design of the Rafale. In fact, the Typhoon, Super Hornet and the Rafale are designed to minimize the signature within the current design constraints and this includes final inspections to make sure it meets the desired standards of finish. While not the strict design, manufacturing and inspection and validation procedures followed on 5th gen fighters, these have come a long way from what was done on 4th generation aircraft manufactured in the 80's and 90's.


I am sure they have. The fit and finish maintained on these fighters is a testimony of that. Otherwise the cost and efforts are not justified even from aerodynamics perspective.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 07 Jan 2019 17:18

This is very definitely a stinking can of worms.

Something like this happened at koodankulam when offshore entities including religious ones ganged up to prevent russia from signing more orders. The russians specifically alluded to this aspect of the protests and warned "certain" countries of economic vengeance.

The GoI has incontrovertible proof of such gross and crass interference of BIF forces in India's internal affairs.

MMS ALSO ALLUDED OPENLY TO SUCH EFFORTS AND FORCES.

It looks like the BIF is back again. Some may remember the virulent and vehement reaction in the UK when the rafale was chosen over the euro fighter

Rafale win leaves UK smarting

Aggressive UK campaign
Though the Eurofighter bid was led by Germany's Cassidian, there was aggressive campaigning by Britain — not least during the Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron's visit to India in 2010 shortly after the British general election, during which a £500-million contract between BAE Systems and Hindustan Electronics for Hawk training jets was signed.

During a visit to India last year, Britain's development minister, Mr Andrew Mitchell, linked the strategic aim of the nation's decision to maintain £1.2 billion of aid to India — while scrapping it for many other countries — to trade and even directly to the Eurofighter campaign. “The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon,” he said, according to Britain's The Independent newspaper at the time.

In Germany, the reaction to the news that Dassault Aviation had emerged as the lowest, and therefore preferred bidder for the MMRCA contract was relatively muted, with criticism more focused on the limited role that the Chancellor, Ms Angela Merkel, played in the campaign, compared with the involvement of the French President, Mr Nicholas Sarkozy on Dassault's behalf.

By contrast, in Britain, it has been vitriolic at points, making clear the presumptiveness that prevailed in some quarters, despite the fact that it had been clear that having tested all the first-round contenders against 660 different criteria, the final round was all about costs. “Well, that's gratitude,” The Daily Mail newspaper — reportedly the most read newspaper web site in the world — declared furiously.

“We give India £1 billion in aid, THEY snub the UK and give France a £13-billion jet contract!” Some Conservative MPs called on the government to revisit the decision on aid.


Dum Laga Ke Haisha

This is very definitely a stinking can of worms and it was referred to as such in parliament by no less than a serving and ranking cabinet minister. It is not such a big deal to figure out who may have been behind such dubious but potentially lucrative shenanigans.

This is also the erstwhile colonial empire striking back along with its old colonial frenemy the US.

This is also a variation on how the IA was deprived of crucial artillery for close to two decades by players in India helping the BIF.

Did You Know: Christian Michel Tried To Scuttle Rafale Deal By Lobbying For Competitor Eurofighter Typhoon, Says Report


Did You Know: Christian Michel Tried To Scuttle Rafale Deal By Lobbying For Competitor Eurofighter Typhoon, Says Report

Reports have emerged that Christian Michel, accused of bribery and money laundering in the AgustsaWestland chopper scam, also tried to scuttle the Rafale deal, by devising a “strategy” to promote Eurofighters, which are Rafale’s stiff competitors in the market.

During the Lok Sabha discussion on the deal, when the Opposition tried to belittle the Narendra Modi government by throwing paper planes at the Finance Minister during his speech, Arun Jaitley quipped, “I think these planes are being flown in the memory of Eurofighters.”

In 2007, when the Congress government at the Centre, was trying to strike a deal for fighter planes, Rafale, which was one of the main contenders, had to compete with five others in its league. One of them was Eurofighter Typhoon, designed by a consortium of multinational defence companies from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. However, after a rigorous testing process by the Air Force, Rafale was selected.

However, India Today TV, in an exclusive report, claims that documents it accessed have now revealed that two middlemen accused of obtaining kickbacks in the VVIP AgustaWestland chopper deal had also ‘strategised’ for the Eurofighter in order to seal the deal in its favour.

A "strategy paper", which was seized during raids at the house of Italian middleman Guido Haschke's, has now revealed that Michel and Haschke worked together on a plan to place Rafale's prime competitor in a “position of advantage” in the selection process.

The document further reads, “There is a need to engage an in-country bureaucratical and political navigator, who should have worked in the Defence Ministry and must be known well on first-name basis by key bureaucrats, the Defence Minister, the PM, the Finance Minister and the Leading Family."


However, Michel and Haschke had a fallout after the signing of the VVIP chopper deal in 2010 even as Rafale and Eurofighter continued to compete for the 126-fighter-jet contract.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Sumeet » 07 Jan 2019 17:43

We should go ahead and order 36 or 54 more Rafale for IAF in F4 config in addition to India specific enhancements. Make Dassault go faster on delivery. To make up for squadron numbers HAL, Dassault everyone has to pitch in aircrafts simultaneously.

That is the best way to proceed now that SC has cleared the deal. Let it be burnol time for RG & Co. In return press Dassault, Safran to help with AMCA program.


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