VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Feb 2019 23:50

Rakesh sir, I have mostly watching rafale scandalous allegations(note not rafale scandal) from sidelines. Two things have been intriguing me for quite some time
1. unlike bofors where there were discussions about bribes being paid, there has been no talk about any evidence of bribes being paid. All the discussions are because someone thinks there is something wrong. In bofors, there were evidences being exchanged for monetary exchanges
2. It has been the failure (i hope that is by choice) of those who should have explained, to provide a single slide/sheet comparing the two deals column by column. What is being called in consulting as waterfall chart. Rohitvats/AIM have been the ones to come up with
3. Everyone is now an expert in analyzing defence deals, across the spectrum, Ex tank crew is analyzing financials (not that he can't), but people are over stretching themselves. Reminds me of paki armoured columns that was smashed from three sides (horse shoe??) in the sugarcane fields after the bund was broken
4. The govt has not been consistent too: Price is confidential, it is not, details are released. I wonder if media can get this what can ISI and chinese get

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 14 Feb 2019 00:13

Nikhil T wrote:Hindu: Rafale deal not on ‘better terms’ than UPA-era offer

Wow. The Hindu has put up the entire 8 page dissent note submitted by three members of the Indian Negotiating Team. Regardless of the concerns raised, the MoD is leaking sensitive docs like crazy. NaMo has certainly upset some very powerful lobby. I’m afraid he’s losing the Rafale debate.


This is not a dissent note because dissent note is given and added to a final decision. The note clearly states many times that the decision making deadline has been missed and they still don’t have all the information to make the decision. Its a status report listing outstanding issues that needs to be dealt with to make a decision.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 14 Feb 2019 01:37

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 4300982272 ---> Most of us seemed to have missed this. The CAG did agree to govt’s contention that there was indeed 9% saving on bare bone aircraft (see the highlighted portion).

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 14 Feb 2019 01:39

Mihir Shah originally responded to Dhruv Rathee on this, but it is applicable here as well.

https://twitter.com/elmihiro/status/1095723139940544512 --->

1. VKS was wrong.
2. AJ stated that the 2016 fly-away price was 20% lower than the 2007 bid amt.
3. NS stated that the 2016 fly-away price was lower than the 2007 bid + escalation.
4. CAG states that the whole package is 2.8 % cheaper.

2, 3, and 4 are consistent with each other.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bala Vignesh » 14 Feb 2019 01:49

I know it's a nitpick, but is INC so averse of Rafale that they refuse to use its photo as well in an infographic designed to discredit its purchase??
The aircraft used in the above tweet is a SHornet!!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 14 Feb 2019 01:58

They do not care Bala-ji. Full of sh!t is what they are.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sahay » 14 Feb 2019 02:06


Is the digital copy of CAG report publicly available? I have only been seeing photos of printed copies till now.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby UlanBatori » 14 Feb 2019 02:11

Gen. VK Singh kicks ass
Tough words on gtre, hal, hf24 saga. "Treason" word suggests some deep feelings from those times. :eek:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sahay » 14 Feb 2019 05:56

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status/1095693024300982272 ---> Most of us seemed to have missed this. The CAG did agree to govt’s contention that there was indeed 9% saving on bare bone aircraft (see the highlighted portion).

Nitin Gokhale is mistaken here. CAG explains why they disagree with the government's argument in the very next paragraph. The highlighted one just states what the government said.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby John » 14 Feb 2019 06:55

Performance and Financial guarantees were not part of 2017 deal. This seems like big red flag or am i mistaken here?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sahay » 14 Feb 2019 07:22

The chairman of Indian Negotiating Team, SBP Sinha said that we have never gotten sovereign guarantee from any country. The French disagreed to give bank guarantee as it would equate them to a vendor. Seems to be a standard G2G deal comparable to the ones that we sign with US or Russia.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby John » 14 Feb 2019 07:39

Yea good point similar deals where done with Russia and US they don't have made in India offset which increases complexity . Also I don't recall paying 60% in advance.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/cag-re ... 974496.cms

"Since about 60 per cent of advance payments were to be made to the French vendors, the ministry of law and justice advised that a government/sovereign guarantee should be requested in view of the value of the proposed procurement, the report said."

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sahay » 14 Feb 2019 08:00

Watch this interview of SBP Sinha by Nitin Gokhale. He explains the problems in getting sovereign/bank guarantee in a G2G deal.

The part about 60% advance is weird. News reports had reported only 40% advance. For example, here's what Ajai Shukla wrote:

The contract requires the IAF to pay a 15 per cent advance of about Rs 8,700 crore today. Since the IAF budget does not cater for this, an additional allocation would be needed. Another 25 per cent would be paid next year, for which the IAF would have to budget Rs 14,500 in addition to its other commitments. The balance amount would be paid to the vendor at stipulated delivery milestones over the coming years.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 10:38

Is the CAG report uploaded somewhere on internet..?? I have not seen it on CAG or LS site. I couldn't find it on google yesterday.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Pratyush » 14 Feb 2019 11:05

Rakesh wrote:Well this is a BIG win for the Modi Govt. First the Supreme Court and now the CAG. RaGa will still continue to lie, but that is irrelevant now. Two of India's non-partisan institutions have given the clean chit to the Modi Govt. What else is left?

Snip



Don't be so sure RAGA and his cotrie will keep on regardless. Remember Hindu got the PRC media freedom award or sum such thing.

And RAGA has been meeting with the PRC people every now and then.

Add two and two together. I say that RAGA and the Hindu are acting and PRC agents.

So you are going to see another day another lie. Till such time they are tried and convicted for treason. Or sued out of their clothes.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby John » 14 Feb 2019 11:08

sahay wrote:Watch this interview of SBP Sinha by Nitin Gokhale. He explains the problems in getting sovereign/bank guarantee in a G2G deal.

The part about 60% advance is weird. News reports had reported only 40% advance. For example, here's what Ajai Shukla wrote:

The contract requires the IAF to pay a 15 per cent advance of about Rs 8,700 crore today. Since the IAF budget does not cater for this, an additional allocation would be needed. Another 25 per cent would be paid next year, for which the IAF would have to budget Rs 14,500 in addition to its other commitments. The balance amount would be paid to the vendor at stipulated delivery milestones over the coming years.

The news media seem to be quoting the report and state it's 60% so not sure who is right. Bit unusual for even 40% before even a single plane is delivered.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 11:21

Last edited by Austin on 14 Feb 2019 11:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Singha » 14 Feb 2019 11:23

there is not even allegation of money changing hands because there is none.

vague insinuations of favouritism to ambani ambani ambani and higher cost (which in worst case would still be 2.8% better that too for only 36 airframes not the original 120 - vendors will give bulk discount for higher nos) .....

hoping that some mud will stick, but there is nothing.

there is no other high level scandal of modi govt for rivals to bark on so rafale rafale rafale .. wuff wuff howl howl

INC has deployed large troops of vanar sena on social media (mainly DU JNU types) to create an atmosphere of FUD.
common man would not recognize a rafale if he sat on one, but linking it to "corrupt big business" like ambani is sought to create the FUD.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 11:33

Even if money changed hands it wont leave a paper trail for it to follow.

The issue that comes from CAG report is a sort of Favrourtism that IAF displays be it Rafale , Chinook or Apache deal.

They make a ASR either tailoured for their favourite horse to win or if they make an ASR and if other contenders turns out to be better , it maniulates the process to get its favourite aircraft or chopper.

This part clearly stands out in the CAG report , If the IAF has made up its mind to go for what it wants then having a Tendering process with ASQR is a useless time wasting exercise and a fraud commited on the other participant and all waste of so called DPP/ASQR process etc

They should simply go for a G2G deal for what it wants they will save a decade of time and money.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kakarat » 14 Feb 2019 11:50

Its because the IAF wants those and in India it is not possible to directly buy what is wanted as in the past people used it for corruption, So IAF is preparing ASQR to suit what they want only

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 14 Feb 2019 12:02

Kakarat wrote:Its because the IAF wants those and in India it is not possible to directly buy what is wanted as in the past people used it for corruption, So IAF is preparing ASQR to suit what they want only


I really doubt if the IAF is the sole progenitor of the ASQR.

There are checks balances and oversight to ensure that it is not tailored to be specific to a particular vendor or country.

The other bidders will not keep quiet and there will be a huge and scandalous public outcry with angry foreign govts getting vocally and diplomatically involved.

It will also severely damage India's credibility in the arms markets.

So, tailored ASQRs are out.

However, the leaking of specific ASQRs much prior to the bid process is in and that is another source of huge moneys.



BTW, these days, what with the many international agreements on terror financing and illegal money transfers, especially after 9/11, the tracking and isolation of such money trails are fairly easy for legitimate govt agencies to do using the proper and required govt to govt protocols and requesting help from foreign govts.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 14 Feb 2019 12:14

Kakarat wrote:Its because the IAF wants those and in India it is not possible to directly buy what is wanted as in the past people used it for corruption, So IAF is preparing ASQR to suit what they want only


C-17 was a direct buy and so was S-400 , Krivak , Su-30 , if any thing they just did some paper comparision of its competitors.

By manipulating their own process they dont benefit any ways , All these trials take a decade , they get 36 out of 126 they wanted and they get it much delayed without any local manuf or TOT , What is the use of the tendering process if it does not benefits the IAF

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby John » 14 Feb 2019 13:20

Singha wrote:there is not even allegation of money changing hands because there is none.

vague insinuations of favouritism to ambani ambani ambani and higher cost (which in worst case would still be 2.8% better that too for only 36 airframes not the original 120 - vendors will give bulk discount for higher nos) .....

.

Just from a business standpoint Anil Ambani would be my last person on earth I would pick for any 3.0 billion dollar offset to go to , he seems to little to no management skills. One thing I do hope comes out of this mess is he get kicked out of this venture.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitv » 14 Feb 2019 14:46

JayS wrote:Is the CAG report uploaded somewhere on internet..?? I have not seen it on CAG or LS site. I couldn't find it on google yesterday.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGC_Mg ... p=drivesdk

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Feb 2019 14:59

John wrote:
Singha wrote:there is not even allegation of money changing hands because there is none.

vague insinuations of favouritism to ambani ambani ambani and higher cost (which in worst case would still be 2.8% better that too for only 36 airframes not the original 120 - vendors will give bulk discount for higher nos) .....

.

Just from a business standpoint Anil Ambani would be my last person on earth I would pick for any 3.0 billion dollar offset to go to , he seems to little to no management skills. One thing I do hope comes out of this mess is he get kicked out of this venture.


Sir there 70 offset partners and he is one of them, lets not spread Pappu propaganda here.

I think insted of UPA Deal it would be to call UPA Non deal which stopped our miltary purchases so that attacking Pakistan is not an option.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 14 Feb 2019 19:26

rohitv wrote:
JayS wrote:Is the CAG report uploaded somewhere on internet..?? I have not seen it on CAG or LS site. I couldn't find it on google yesterday.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGC_Mg ... p=drivesdk


Many thanks. :D

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby CRamS » 14 Feb 2019 22:02

Rakesh wrote:Well this is a BIG win for the Modi Govt. First the Supreme Court and now the CAG. RaGa will still continue to lie, but that is irrelevant now. Two of India's non-partisan institutions have given the clean chit to the Modi Govt. What else is left?

Snip



RakeshJi, lets recall Pappu and his slaves' strategy. It is to show seeds of confusion, throw muck, and continue the bogey of "ModiJi gave hazaar crores to Anil Ambani and hence chowkidar chor hai". This needs to be demolished, and its not easy, and I'll tell you why. Take for e.g., one of Pappu media anchors Omar Abdullah's concubine and low-IQ arrogant Sreenivasan Jain. They will have shows regurgitating Pappu's latest lie and ambush an inarticulate rustic BJP spokesman whol will cite SC judjement and CAG report. To which both the anchors and some foul-mouthed dog like Pawan Khera (who will slip into Hindi so more folks will understand) will cite something from the reports (like comfort letter etc) and now the discussion will become tu tu mein mein. BJP already falls into Congoon trap right there.

Instead from now on, the BJP strategy should be to NOT to engage in any debate that goes into the intricacies of the deal. Rather, they should hit back saying that Pappu's central claim on pricing and corruption have been demolished. Its a clean deal done in the interest of the Indian and air force period. By engaging in a debate on nuts and bolts amounts to being defensive. No need to be defensive anymore, just tell Congoon and their media mouthpieces to f!ck off.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 15 Feb 2019 00:08

[*]b
John wrote:
Singha wrote:there is not even allegation of money changing hands because there is none.

vague insinuations of favouritism to ambani ambani ambani and higher cost (which in worst case would still be 2.8% better that too for only 36 airframes not the original 120 - vendors will give bulk discount for higher nos) .....

.

Just from a business standpoint Anil Ambani would be my last person on earth I would pick for any 3.0 billion dollar offset to go to , he seems to little to no management skills. One thing I do hope comes out of this mess is he get kicked out of this venture.


Total offset going to the JV of Ambani and DA is Rs800 corer or little more than $100M. The reason for going with him was stated by DA CEO himself. He has got the land with access to a runway in aerospace park at Nagpur.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2019 04:25

‘Rafale IGA protects Indian interests’ - French Envoy
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... CK5FI.html

The Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) between France and India for the sale of Rafale fighter jets to the air force has in-built provisions to ensure that Indian interests are protected, ambassador of France to India Alexandre Ziegler said on Thursday. His comments came a day after the Comptroller and Auditor General’s report held that the deal for 36 Rafale jets was 2.86% cheaper than a previous one for 126 jets. “There is nothing stronger in our system that protects the deal and India’s interests than the IGA,” Ziegler said at a time when the Rs 59,000-crore deal has been criticised for not having the safeguard of financial and performance guarantees. India floated a global tender in August 2007 to buy 126 planes but it stood cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafale planes from France under a government-to-government deal. The two countries concluded the IGA in September 2016.

“In our system, when a government signs a deal under its name, we are responsible as a government for price and delivery,” the French diplomat said. He added that France was committed to strengthening its ties with India and 49 French firms, including Dassault Aviation, would be taking part in Aero India-2019 scheduled to be held outside Bengaluru next week. Three Rafale jets landed in Bengaluru on Wednesday to take part in the air show. With the general elections scheduled in summer, the Congress has been repeatedly attacking the government for allegedly awarding the deal for 36 Rafale fighters to Dassault only on the condition that it would stitch up an alliance with Anil Ambani’s Reliance Group for meeting its offset obligations. The government, Anil Ambani’s company and Dassault have rubbished the allegations. Reiterating the French government’s stand, Zeigler said there was absolutely no pressure on France from India to pick any particular offset partner. “The governments have nothing to do with it. Companies choose their offset partners,” he said.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2019 04:41

So can we close the thread on this saga of 'Much Ado about Nothing'?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 15 Feb 2019 04:49

Why close this thread Ramana-ji? The first batch of Rafales are coming in Sept 2019 :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2019 04:56

I just want to put an end to this phase.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 15 Feb 2019 18:43

ramana wrote:I just want to put an end to this phase.


this phase has not ended yet, saar.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 17 Feb 2019 21:16

Once we get first jets in Sept, the govt (NDA hopefully) must order next batches. Doesn't matter MII or MIF. Having massive air power is paramount. Imagine us having 2 3 squadrons of Rafales now, how much they would have changed the situation currently.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby hemant_sai » 17 Feb 2019 21:52

Karthik S wrote:Once we get first jets in Sept, the govt (NDA hopefully) must order next batches. Doesn't matter MII or MIF. Having massive air power is paramount. Imagine us having 2 3 squadrons of Rafales now, how much they would have changed the situation currently.

It is evident that we are short on funding. We shouldn't be doing any import deal for fighters now. If we have to it should be limited to $1billion in a year.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby VKumar » 17 Feb 2019 23:51

Buy one squadron of RAFALE every year till our 5th generation fighter is produced.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chandrasekaran » 18 Feb 2019 20:44

How N Ram of The Hindu has blatantly resorted to editing out an official document to build his narrative.... What's worse was the so called "Readers Editor" justifying this and taking cheap shots at Mr Abhijit.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Iyervval/sta ... 8387699712

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2019 21:51

Thank you chandra for posting that link above.

Folks, please click on the link above and follow the Abhijit's tweet thread. Eye opening.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2019 21:54

Deep State-II: The European angle to Rafale
https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll ... on/1479613

It is no surprise that Europe becomes a fiery battleground every time a big aerospace deal is floated -- as happened when the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition was announced by the Indian Air Force in 2007. The French company Dassault Aviation is to deliver 36 fully-loaded Rafale fighters to India. However, Airbus Industrie, which manufactures the Eurofighter, has pitched itself in the game and wants to have a share of the pie through the 'Make in India' programme. Meanwhile, Sweden's Saab, which manufactures the Gripen and had been an initial favourite before being edged out by the French companies, believes it can still stay in the hunt if it finds an entry through the 'Make in India' programme. And then there are the Russians. It is a high-stakes game that is also complicated.

For some, there is also an interest in keeping things complicated. Mahmut Turker, a Turkish-origin former German politician and a member of Germany's Freedom Democratic Party, has met Congress President Rahul Gandhi and other critics of the Narendra Modi government in New Delhi to make out a case for Airbus -- he is now its sales director, Combat Aircraft Campaigns. Turker provided the raw material to prepare Rahul Gandhi for the charge against the Modi government. He first met the Congress President in Hamburg in September last year. Then, in tandem with controversial arms dealer Sanjay Bhandari, he helped to prepare the strategy for the attack on the government for the Rafale purchases. Congress leaders evidently believe they are onto something, which is why they have gone beyond characteristic political bluster to directly target the Prime Minister.

Later, when Turker met Arun Shourie, Yashwant Sinha, lawyer Prashant Bhushan -- who are behind the PIL in the Rafale case -- and Congressman Ranjeet Surjewala, he brought his savvy political skills along to drive holes into the Rafale deal and suggest that it be scrapped. He is believed to have supplied them with dossiers on Rafale to burnish his argument.

There is a back story to this. During the MMRCA negotiations, Airbus/BAE which makes the Eurofighter had lost out to Rafale. The government has said that the earlier deal with Rafale during UPA rule was based on L1 or lowest bidder criterion and the new one for 36 fully-loaded fighters has different specs and there can be no equivalence between them. However, it considers itself to be still in the race for a fighter jet contract, which is why, apart from trying to getting Turker to use the more circuitous route to scupper the deal by providing cue notes to well-placed dissidents, Airbus/BAE sent proposals to the government highlighting why the Rafale deal is bad. Meanwhile, Turker decided to cast the net wider. He met retired Indian Air Force officials, people with credibility in the system who could help his company, or failing that at least beat down Dassault's case. He is also believed to have met IAS officer Rajeev Verma, who wrote a dissenting note on the Rafale deal as a member of the contract negotiation committee. There is no evidence that the note helped Airbus/BAE but it certainly did not help Verma. His career took a tumble thereafter.

Could the Congress party be pinning its entire strategy on the basis of inputs from a recently-met aerospace company official and a controversial arms dealer? The game gets bigger, more complicated, as it progresses. Indeed, it mirrors Indian politics where there are no permanent enemies. Enter, the son-in-law of a Modi acolyte who is with BAe. Using old connections with the Gandhis, this man with deep links in the government has reportedly been able to provide a gist of what the naysayers in officialdom have to say of the Rafale purchase. That has added to the Congress party's ammo against the government. Then, the head of a private bank, who is also a key figure in BAE, is working in tandem with a prominent Congress politician in Mumbai. This too is about providing documents and information on the fighter jet deal. For the record, the Congress politician who is known to accompany the Congress President on foreign trips, had earlier been a key figure in an all-party young MPs forum that would meet regularly to identify issues on which they could work together beyond partisan divisions.

The Congress is playing the perception game and believes that the pushback on corruption is happening and the wheels of fortune have altered since 2014.

viveks
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby viveks » 19 Feb 2019 09:24

So many many tom, dicks and harrys got involved in this equipment sale. This is so much like trying to bring back Mr Mallya back home. This deal has gone from courtrooms to supreme court to what not. And still the end user is suffering, people who are nowhere near concerned with these people in their day to day lives as in profession. I have been advocating closure of this thread since ages. But I feel we burden ourselves with this too as we with so many problems. So just let it continue...


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