VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2019 18:37

JayS wrote:Looks like those are not the only incorrect numbers thrown. The Retired AM says Meteor has max range of 180km and NEZ of 150km...!!! That just not acceptable number for NEZ.

He says Rafale better than even F35, because maintenance issues on F35 are more severe. Is that the only parameter of evaluation..?

Those two offer very different capability to a point where in many instances Dassault has even stopped competing agains the F-35. They are also not in the same maturity life-cycle. F-35 SDD build (3F) was declared operational about a year ago, and the industrial program currently produces about as many aircraft a year as the Rafale program has in the past decade. The Rafale in contrast has a more mature baseline and has been in production for far longer. This JSF production transition phase (from LRIP to FRP) is going to create part shortages, and is going to push the boundaries of production processes and everyone down to the smallest suppliers ramp up. So yes, for the next few years as production stabilizes at or above 150 per annum, and as contractors begin to offer PBL or PBL-hybrids things will be different from the far more mature Rafale. But in a year or two they will just about achieve parity. The USAF missed its F-35 80% mission-capability rate target this year but it should take them probably 6-12 months to get there for the entire combat coded fleet. Most operators though see past that..because they make decisions with a 2-3 decade view of capability requirement, threat advancement, and what they need to field and constantly upgrade to keep up with it. The F-35 was obviously not an option for the IAF and may be geopolitical "no-go". But pretty much every time the Eurocanards have been evaluated against the F-35, the F-35 has come out as winner, be it in South Korea, Japan, in Europe or elsewhere..

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Sep 2019 19:37

MKI has already been integrated with buddy refueling system, so the center hardpoint must be "wet"? Unless it is only one way.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2019 20:53

JayS wrote:Looks like those are not the only incorrect numbers thrown. The Retired AM says Meteor has max range of 180km and NEZ of 150km...!!! That just not acceptable number for NEZ.

He says Rafale better than even F35, because maintenance issues on F35 are more severe. Is that the only parameter of evaluation..?

IAF folks are overselling Rafale. Is even the French taking so much efforts..??

Saar, I think you hit the nail on the head. The IAF is obviously excited about the Rafale and are likely overselling the plane. I believe they are overselling the plane to the GoI, so they can get more of them. That is what is happening here.

And they are overselling the plane, because I suspect they do not see any value in getting *YET* another fourth generation fighter. It looks like they want to stick with Rafale.

I find it hard to believe that the Rafale has 1.5 times more endurance than the Su-30, despite Air Marshal Patney saying so. That does not make sense.

And perhaps maintenance wise, the Rafale may be easier than the F-35. But like brar said above, the F-35 would prevail (and come out on top) against the Rafale or any other contemporary fourth generation fighter.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Sep 2019 21:00

The F-35 offers Low Observable shaping and materials which the Rafale really doesn't so that is an added O&S spend that the Rafale and its contemporaries do not have. Similarly, the F-35 has an IWB that would introduce its own set of maintenance and sustainment costs which are also not present on the Rafale and its peers. Guess what, everyone with any sort of vision or technology investment is moving towards Low observable figthers with an IWB be it Russia (T-50), China (J20/31) India (AMCA), Japan (F3), South Korea (KFX), Turkey (TFX), France/Germany (FCAS) or UK/Italy/Sweden (Tempest offshoot)..I believe even the crazy cartoonish looking fighter that Iran unveiled incorporates LO and some sort of internal weapons..so clearly operators see value in these things are willing to invest to obtain and utilize that capability...They are willing to pay for the higher sustianment cost because of the effectiveness that it brings to the table much the same way their predecessors were willing to pay more O&S to sustain a fleet of supersonic fighters which more costly and labor intensive to maintain and operate than the subsonic fighters they replaced..No one has yet had a look at Low observable capability, and technology and the stuff that enables it (internal mission systems and weapons and materials and complex thermal management) and said "Naa..I don't want that in my next-generation fighter"..Not even the French as the nEUron and the FCAS both use Low Observables and an IWB while also housing most of the sensors internally. It isn't a coincidence that a lot of the 5-5+ generation designs floating around somehow end up looking like offspring of the F-22/F-35..the constraints and the design trade space when designing to a particular signature are the same for all...The Rafale is just about the best-in-class advanced 4th gen figther the IAF could have purchased and is an excellent aircraft but like others in its class it has its limitations and the IAF probably knows them and hence have a requirement for an indegenous 5th gen. fighter in the AMCA, and may even consider an import option down the road...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Sep 2019 21:06

RB001 - the first Indian Rafale.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Sep 2019 00:42

Gorgeous!

added later: is that a fake pic though? PS? the location of the IAF roundel in the earlier pic we have seen of RB001 is right on the fuselage, behind the canard..and in this pic it is in front of the intake, below the canard. Surely the roundel location was not changed in a few days' time could it?

nam · Post by **nam** » 25 Sep 2019 01:27

Will Meteor get it's first kill in form of Pak F16 in second round? once the snow melts

In terms of range, i presume for the same amount of fuel, given the smaller size and most efficient M88, Rafale will have longer loitering time.

Su30 would have higher thrust, more fuel guzzling engines!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2019 01:38

Rakesh wrote:
JayS wrote:Looks like those are not the only incorrect numbers thrown. The Retired AM says Meteor has max range of 180km and NEZ of 150km...!!! That just not acceptable number for NEZ.

He says Rafale better than even F35, because maintenance issues on F35 are more severe. Is that the only parameter of evaluation..?

IAF folks are overselling Rafale. Is even the French taking so much efforts..??
Saar, I think you hit the nail on the head. 1) The IAF is obviously excited about the Rafale and are likely overselling the plane. I believe they are overselling the plane to the GoI, so they can get more of them. That is what is happening here.

And 2) they are overselling the plane, because I suspect they do not see any value in getting *YET* another fourth generation fighter. It looks like they want to stick with Rafale.

I find it hard to believe that the Rafale has 1.5 times more endurance than the Su-30, despite Air Marshal Patney saying so. That does not make sense.

And perhaps maintenance wise, the Rafale may be easier than the F-35. But like brar said above, 3) the F-35 would prevail (and come out on top) against the Rafale or any other contemporary fourth generation fighter.

1) IAF will get the number the govt can afford not because they oversold.
2) I don't believe that. Given half a chance they will go for Grippen. Maintenance, logistics are not an issue for the pilots.
Only time IAF was effective was during ACM PC Lal who was from navigator stream.
3) I don't want this type of thinking. IAF is not there to fight USAF except in Cope India.
This desire drives the search for the best even if country cant afford the planes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Sep 2019 02:06

LakshmanPST wrote:
Nikhil T wrote: the PLAAF can be kept at bay by accelerating our Su-30MKI upgrade.
Well, Dhanoa ji thinks otherwise... Watch this video from 1:11:00--->
https://youtu.be/ooE8vLRfvVo

He clearly says that we need Rafale to take care of J20 and J31 of PLAAF...

Because the Su-30 MKI upgrade is not ready and will take time to induct. The Rafales are available today.

Once the Su-30 upgrade is available, and if it actually matches what the Su-30 airframe is capable of, lets just say it will be a beast and may actually act as the Rafale's eyes.

I hope IAF comes up with a unique IAF specific radar fit for the Su-30 MKI derived from the FGFA or a customized fit, and does not take just take the Su-35s fit, which has already been sold to the PRC.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 25 Sep 2019 04:34

Karan M wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
Well, Dhanoa ji thinks otherwise... Watch this video from 1:11:00--->
https://youtu.be/ooE8vLRfvVo

He clearly says that we need Rafale to take care of J20 and J31 of PLAAF...
Because the Su-30 MKI upgrade is not ready and will take time to induct. The Rafales are available today.

Once the Su-30 upgrade is available, and if it actually matches what the Su-30 airframe is capable of, lets just say it will be a beast and may actually act as the Rafale's eyes.

I hope IAF comes up with a unique IAF specific radar fit for the Su-30 MKI derived from the FGFA or a customized fit, and does not take just take the Su-35s fit, which has already been sold to the PRC.

Karan are we under restrictions that Radar has to be from Russia ? I doubt Russians have enough finances to produce a great Radar that our premier fighter needs to have. Can we have a fully Indian solution or an Indo-Israeli solution ? I am even ok with collaborating with Russians on PAK-FA radar provided we get full manufacturing rights, source code (to keep independently upgrading new ECCM, new waveforms etc )

I remember reading that if radar is fully Indian we might get to integrate Meteor with MKI. MBDA wanted either fully Indian or French radar solution to integrate Meteor.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 25 Sep 2019 09:39

Times now is reporting (based on paki reports) the PAF fighter pilots are getting access to Rafael through Qatar. I know the French denied it the last time - but are there really any guaranties that they will not get access? Qatar is getting close to 100 new jets, who else is going to pilot them.
Also it is safe to say the pakis have all the info on the meteor, since they anyway have access through the Saudis.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Sep 2019 09:58

Sumeet wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Because the Su-30 MKI upgrade is not ready and will take time to induct. The Rafales are available today.

Once the Su-30 upgrade is available, and if it actually matches what the Su-30 airframe is capable of, lets just say it will be a beast and may actually act as the Rafale's eyes.

I hope IAF comes up with a unique IAF specific radar fit for the Su-30 MKI derived from the FGFA or a customized fit, and does not take just take the Su-35s fit, which has already been sold to the PRC.
Karan are we under restrictions that Radar has to be from Russia ? I doubt Russians have enough finances to produce a great Radar that our premier fighter needs to have. Can we have a fully Indian solution or an Indo-Israeli solution ? I am even ok with collaborating with Russians on PAK-FA radar provided we get full manufacturing rights, source code (to keep independently upgrading new ECCM, new waveforms etc )

I remember reading that if radar is fully Indian we might get to integrate Meteor with MKI. MBDA wanted either fully Indian or French radar solution to integrate Meteor.

Sumeet, if India didn't have access to the Bars how did they manage to integrate and test the Astra on the MKI? the russians have been working on the pakfa radar for some years now, and their radar houses esp. NIIP T has some serious pedigree from the irbis to the bars to the zaslon. AFAIK India has received full access to the BARS - and I think a similar access/deal could be worked out with the russians. All in all I wouldn't dismiss them. I also think it is important to have a decent mix of Indian, Israeli, Russian and French sensors, weapons and platforms, which would be a headache for enemy ECM.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Sep 2019 10:02

nam wrote:Will Meteor get it's first kill in form of Pak F16 in second round? once the snow melts

TBH I think the USP and secret sauce on the Rafale is passive BVR strike via the spectra and mica IIR. A lightly loaded Rafale with 6 Mica would be very discrete and have a rather small RCS.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 25 Sep 2019 10:11

all AF's usually have access to all a/c..iAF trains with AF's with F16's .similarly PAF will also train with AF having SU's, Mig29's , Rafale but all AF's have to fight with what they have.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 25 Sep 2019 10:14

Karan M wrote:LockMart did an analysis of how the JSF fared against peers. There, all fighters including the Rafale were carrying 3x fuel tanks, + 6 AAMs and the F-35 and Su-30 MKI were clean (no tanks) but carried 8 and 4 AAMs respectively, basically the mission profile was :

Weapons load, took off, returned after a minute of combat:
Rafale had a mission radius of 896 nmiles, F/A-18 816, F-35 751 nm, EF 747 nm, Su-30 MKI 728, Gripen 508
Rafale vs Su-30 here, is 23% more but only because the Su-30s are clean. In real life combat, they may have to punch off tanks midway, lose fuel, actual ranges may be lower (opponent may not be kind enough to emerge only when your tanks are dry).

This is a Rafale presentation, as you can see very similar numbers for both the Rafale and F-18, 920 nm. 6x AAM + 3x FT (2000 Ltr). The LM modeling is hence, fairly accurate IMHO (it said 896 nm).
http://d30p9ca83oqyng.cloudfront.net/de ... e_null.jpg

Net - the Su-30 has a respectable range, loiter.

Note also that there is distinct possibility that the MKI upgrade might result in plumbing for some EFTs + internal fuel similar to the Su-35. The latter can carry 2 X 2000 ltr bags + 2000kg more internal fuel than the MKI

It has an insane range of 4500km with EFTs and 3600km on purely internal fuel.

There is room to optimize the MKI airframe no doubt and IIRC even the original 35 (remember that one? Ze Terminator?) had internal fuel in the tail fins! we shall see the Rambha emerge victorious yet - despite Admiral saar's eyes for the new filly Katrina.

nits · Post by **nits** » 25 Sep 2019 13:55

abhik wrote:Times now is reporting (based on paki reports) the PAF fighter pilots are getting access to Rafael through Qatar. I know the French denied it the last time - but are there really any guaranties that they will not get access? Qatar is getting close to 100 new jets, who else is going to pilot them.
Also it is safe to say the pakis have all the info on the meteor, since they anyway have access through the Saudis.

In this age - you can't just stop it; but the way IAF and QAF will operate them or the operating procedures which IAF will bring on table is what will act as differentiating factor. china has sukhoi variants and Pak did got formidable information from them also about it like how we got abt F16 when we exercise with Us and Singapore

but ya in a positive world scenario i would also want Pak to not get any info on Rafael via QAF

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Sep 2019 19:54

nits wrote:
abhik wrote:Times now is reporting (based on paki reports) the PAF fighter pilots are getting access to Rafael through Qatar. I know the French denied it the last time - but are there really any guaranties that they will not get access? Qatar is getting close to 100 new jets, who else is going to pilot them.
Also it is safe to say the pakis have all the info on the meteor, since they anyway have access through the Saudis.
In this age - you can't just stop it; but the way IAF and QAF will operate them or the operating procedures which IAF will bring on table is what will act as differentiating factor. china has sukhoi variants and Pak did got formidable information from them also about it like how we got abt F16 when we exercise with Us and Singapore

but ya in a positive world scenario i would also want Pak to not get any info on Rafael via QAF

It is the same news that is being parroted again. The reason for this news cropping up again is because the Rafale is being inducted on Oct 08th. Pak news outlets and Pak citizens on twitter are playing psy ops.

But let us assume the news piece to be correct ---> that the PAF knows the ins and outs of the Rafale. While not ideal or wanted, it will not tilt the balance of air power in their favour. In fact, the only thing it will do is force the PAF to fall back deeper into their own territory. At that point it is game over for the Pakistan Fizāʾiyah. Nothing in their inventory right now will prevail over a customized-for-India Rafale F3R. Not the JF-17, not the F-16A/B MLU and not even the F-16C/D Block 50/52.

In addition to what nits said, the PAF has been flying with and against the Su-30MKK and their subsequent Chinese variants for more than a decade now. What happened at Balakot? Not a single Su-30 was lost and as per Sameer Joshi, Su-30s were able to hold off a force of ingressing F-16s and JF-17s. Now what does that tell you? Either they were sleeping during Su-30 indoctrination class or they realized that they will be Al-Vida in a battle against the Su-30MKI. They do not have a counter against the Su-30MKI and they will not have a counter against the Rafale either.

In fact, at Balakot, the only thing the PAF could do was fire 4 - 5 AIM-120C-5 AMRAAMs and hope that they would find their mark. That is what they learned in the past 10+ years of flying with and against Chinese Su-30MKKs.

The only way they are going to counter the Rafale is with a similar aircraft - F-21 [with F-35 tech

], F-18 Super Hornet Block III, Typhoon or Gripen E. And if the PAF wants to prevail over the Rafale, then the F-35. Which of these can they realistically afford? The only ones who believe that the PAF can buy these aircraft are the Pak net citizens on twitter. They could not even afford those 18 gold-plated Block 50/52s that they got in 2010. America had to fund that. And then they had the gall to ask for another 18 more...also as baksheesh!

In the words of the Air Chief-designate, Air Marshal RKS Bhaduria, the Rafale-Su-30MKI combo will be potent.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 25 Sep 2019 20:03

Rakesh wrote:RB001 - the first Indian Rafale.

The landscape does not look like France with muddy water rivers --- more like a tropical zone --- unless Rafale is being tested in hot humid environment of some of the french colonies to weather proofing testing...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Sep 2019 22:35

abhik wrote:Times now is reporting (based on paki reports) the PAF fighter pilots are getting access to Rafael through Qatar. I know the French denied it the last time - but are there really any guaranties that they will not get access? Qatar is getting close to 100 new jets, who else is going to pilot them.
Also it is safe to say the pakis have all the info on the meteor, since they anyway have access through the Saudis.

I think there is lot of blow to Modi from the distraught Indian media. Need to put a low pass filter on their news.
IOW its #FakeNews

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Sep 2019 23:30

ramana wrote:
abhik wrote:Times now is reporting (based on paki reports) the PAF fighter pilots are getting access to Rafael through Qatar. I know the French denied it the last time - but are there really any guaranties that they will not get access? Qatar is getting close to 100 new jets, who else is going to pilot them.
Also it is safe to say the pakis have all the info on the meteor, since they anyway have access through the Saudis.
I think there is lot of blow to Modi from the distraught Indian media. Need to put a low pass filter on their news.
IOW its #FakeNews

Ramana garu, didn't few OIC members overtly support pakis during previous wars? Isn't there a slightest probability that they'll do so again.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Sep 2019 23:37

Even if they do, the basic thing is this, do they have countermeasures? Is their local industry capable of making it? No?
What will matter are tactics, and the IAFs capabilities there will speak for themselves. This is the ever present risk when we buy foreign arms.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Sep 2019 02:18

Off course they will. The leader was Jordan that sent its F-104 twice.
Iran under the Shah allowed F-86s to co-mingle.
Now the termagant is Turkey.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Sep 2019 06:47

There is no imported arm which another country does not have and hence whose overall capabilities (in some way) are not roughly known to the PAF. Even if we were to import the JSF tomorrow, half of the world would field it.
We are just lucky that Pak is a basket case and hence cannot devise heavy countermeasures for any intelligence it gains. We have tactics, they have tactics, but again, we have more $$ and a more open system courtesy our culture of accepting reality, warts and all (sometimes going too far into pessimism too) and hence we take corrective action. They are still in the entire mythos of superiority and what not. Having said that, their procurement system is fast and top notch.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Sep 2019 08:27

Karthik S wrote:
ramana wrote:
I think there is lot of blow to Modi from the distraught Indian media. Need to put a low pass filter on their news.
IOW its #FakeNews
Ramana garu, didn't few OIC members overtly support pakis during previous wars? Isn't there a slightest probability that they'll do so again.

OIC members will support the pakis at their own peril. India is one of the largest oil and gas importing countries in the world...with options !

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Sep 2019 08:34

Karan M wrote:There is no imported arm which another country does not have and hence whose overall capabilities (in some way) are not roughly known to the PAF. Even if we were to import the JSF tomorrow, half of the world would field it.
We are just lucky that Pak is a basket case and hence cannot devise heavy countermeasures for any intelligence it gains. We have tactics, they have tactics, but again, we have more $$ and a more open system courtesy our culture of accepting reality, warts and all (sometimes going too far into pessimism too) and hence we take corrective action. They are still in the entire mythos of superiority and what not. Having said that, their procurement system is fast and top notch.

Boss., the pakis decision making body, financial authority as well as the user is Paki army. No bureaucratic hoops to jump, no waiting list for cabinet approval, no other priority. The paki country lives and breathes for its army ( bhuttos eating grass is still relevant for the paki military, see all those exercises going on when the economy goes deeper into quagmire !!.. ).. ah yes thats why their procurement is top notch, the priority being weapons not food and shelter.

nits · Post by **nits** » 26 Sep 2019 20:04

Rakesh wrote:
But let us assume the news piece to be correct ---> that the PAF knows the ins and outs of the Rafale. While not ideal or wanted, it will not tilt the balance of air power in their favour. In fact, the only thing it will do is force the PAF to fall back deeper into their own territory. At that point it is game over for the Pakistan Fizāʾiyah. Nothing in their inventory right now will prevail over a customized-for-India Rafale F3R. Not the JF-17, not the F-16A/B MLU and not even the F-16C/D Block 50/52.

Fair point Rakesh Sir; just a thought - lets assume for a moment they pass there whatever learning they have to chin; does that impact us anyway ?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 26 Sep 2019 20:27

But for their top notch procurement process (and they have top notch, thankfully they don't of anything else much) - they have gotten 40 F-16 and then got them sanctioned, got some 35 odd more (half of it second hand) and could not get another 18 which were on the table. They got another basket case F-7 which they hurriedly try to retire (within a decade of procurement) and have bought 100s of 4-5 decade old retired Mirage 3/5 AND 100 of JF-17s, which are neither there, nor here. In last 40 years (since they started procuring F-16), we have bought 40+ 10-15 m2K, 70 odd Mig 29, 260(of 272) Su 30mki, 36 Rafale, some 40 odd Jags (on top of what was bought earlier), 16 LCA (going to 120 total) and have done 1 round of MLU on M2K, Mig 29 and JAGS.
For a bad procurement process we have done quite right, perhaps because, TSP is nothing but a sun Saharan economy pretending to be South Asian country.
Ours look bad compared to China, there also the deciding factor is perhaps economy.
If we manage better, we may have had a mix of 150 Mirage 2ks, and maybe some 50-60 additional LCAs flying (and/or some MMCRA plane 50-100 of them extra).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Sep 2019 02:55

nits wrote:
Rakesh wrote:But let us assume the news piece to be correct ---> that the PAF knows the ins and outs of the Rafale. While not ideal or wanted, it will not tilt the balance of air power in their favour. In fact, the only thing it will do is force the PAF to fall back deeper into their own territory. At that point it is game over for the Pakistan Fizāʾiyah. Nothing in their inventory right now will prevail over a customized-for-India Rafale F3R. Not the JF-17, not the F-16A/B MLU and not even the F-16C/D Block 50/52.
Fair point Rakesh ~~Sir~~; just a thought - lets assume for a moment they pass there whatever learning they have to chin; does that impact us anyway?

Please no Sir.

You do not need to assume. If the PAF indeed got access to the Rafale, it will have already happened. And remember Qatari Rafales are not to the same specifications as Indian Rafales. Then there is the IAF training and tactics. All unknowns to the enemy. And the end question still holds true - do they have a counter? They have the S-400 system, which will be something that has to be factored in. The S-400 is a highly capable system that has made even the Americans wary. However no system is perfect and we will get our hands on the S-400 too. So obviously we will know its weaknesses along with the system's strengths.

The IAF is not worried about the J-20 though. The Air Chief himself said that a Su-30MKI detected the J-20 - several kilometers away - flying over Tibet. And that was with a PESA radar. Imagine what the Super Sukhoi could do or a Rafale F3R could do. I would be cautious with Chinese claims about the PL-12, PL-15 and PL-21 series of air-to-air missiles. Just because they say they are comparable (or better) to the AIM-120 AMRAAM series of missiles, that does not mean it is true. Only a few on the forum parrot everything that the Chinese say to be the gospel truth.

And since the IAF was able to successfully jam and evade 4 - 5 AIM-120C5 AMRAAMs, the Chinese equivalents are not causing talkeef at Air HQ. Read below about the S-400.

Why the IAF wants the S-400 missile
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2019-07-16

The Indian Air Force (IAF), which has closely studied the S-400 system for the past five years, was impressed by these capabilities. The IAF's air defence missiles can currently only engage targets 40 kilometres away. The Medium-Range Surface-to-Air Missile or MRSAM to be acquired from Israel next year will increase its engagement range to nearly 80 kilometres. The S-400 on the other hand, more than quadruples the IAF's missile reach. "Deploying one S-400 system allows you to cover an entire spectrum of aerial threats," says a senior IAF official. The missile system offers such a quantum jump in its capabilities that, the official says that the IAF advised the government to purchase it even at the risk of incurring US wrath. India also rejected US counter-offers of the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) and Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) to stop the sale.

This imbalance changes with the acquisition of the S-400. The missile system can undertake a bulk of the airspace defence role. From their locations in India, the S-400's radars can look deep inside Pakistani territory and pick up enemy aircraft almost as soon as they are airborne. Deployed along the eastern border with China, the missile system can monitor fighter jets taking off from airfields along the Tibetan plateau. "In case of hostilities, the S-400s will free up our multi-role fighters for other tasks like air-to-ground bombing missions, instead of tying them up in the air superiority role of shooting down enemy fighters," says a senior IAF official.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Sep 2019 04:13

Admiral saab, wrong thread? Might be better in IAF thread perhaps.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Sep 2019 07:18

nachiket wrote:Admiral saab, wrong thread? Might be better in IAF thread perhaps.

I merged that post with my earlier one. I was talking about the S-400 to nits.

nam · Post by **nam** » 27 Sep 2019 14:28

Cain Marko wrote:
nam wrote:Will Meteor get it's first kill in form of Pak F16 in second round? once the snow melts
TBH I think the USP and secret sauce on the Rafale is passive BVR strike via the spectra and mica IIR. A lightly loaded Rafale with 6 Mica would be very discrete and have a rather small RCS.

Fighters nowadays know when their jet's are been tracked and locked by enemy radar. If your RWR is continuously beeping for X band, even if you fly left or right, then it means you are been tracked and a BVR is on it's way very soon. Yes his Ku Band RWR will not beep, when Mica IR comes near.

However they can notice a BVR launch as well, like our Su30's did and take evasive method.

To overcome this, fighters are placed outside your adversary's radar envelope. AWACS tracks the target, datalink it to fighters deployed outside the radar envelope and they fire off a BVR. In this scenario doesn't matter if it is Radar or IR BVR, the adversary will in the NEZ zone by the time be realizes. You are hitting him from the blind side. Ofcourse enemy AWACS will monitoring your fighters placed in the blind side.

All in all, cat and mouse game.

Remember the PAF pilot in Kargil, who lost his mind when he was locked on by Mig29! How did he know he was getting a R77 up his Mushraff soon?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Sep 2019 14:35

It was 2 PAF F 16 Pilots and than time the MIg 29 had only R-27 missiles. But 27 Feb told us that we probably need a few R-37(RVV BD) type missiles to take care of any aircraft with call signs like Vigil and then making the rest of the PAF fleet much more vulnerable.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 27 Sep 2019 23:05

From Ainonline..Jon Lake actually quoted IDRW, if you can believe it! He also gets it wrong when he claims that No.1 'Tigers' Squadron will be re-equipped with the Rafale. It will be No.101 'Falcons' and not No.1 'Tigers'.

Anyway, the most significant details in the article is the ISE upgrades for Indian Rafale jets

More Rafales for India?

...

The aircraft for the Indian Air Force (Bharatiya Vayu Sena, BVS) incorporate a range of India-specific enhancements, including a new weather mapping mode for the RBE-2 AESA radar, an uprated onboard oxygen generating system (OBOGS), modifications to the Sigma 95N IN/GPS to allow it to use India’s NAVIC IRNSS GPS satellites, and modifications to the M88 starter for improved operation at high-altitude airfields.

The Rafale DH and EH also have provision for the Elbit Targo-II helmet-mounted display system, the Rafael Litening G4 targeting pod, Rafael X-Guard towed radar decoys, a Rafael standby radar altimeter, an upgraded Spectra electronic warfare system, a new Thales TCAS, and quadruple launchers for the SPICE 250-based DEW EMP weapons being jointly developed by India and Israel. There is provision for a range of weapons in India’s inventory, including the BrahMos-NG supersonic cruise missile.

Only one Rafale (RB008) will be delivered with all of these enhancements, the remainder having them incorporated in-country. RB008 will be used for flight testing and certification of the additions, which are expected to be available from September 2022.

The first Rafale DH for the Indian Air Force (serial RB001) made its first flight at Bordeaux-Merignac on July 17, 2019. An official, formal handover ceremony is planned for October 8, when Defence Minister Rajnath Singh will be visiting France.

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Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 27 Sep 2019 23:19

quadruple launchers for the SPICE 250-based DEW EMP weapons being jointly developed by India and Israel.

Directed energy weapons with an electromagnetic pulse discharge? This is new

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 28 Sep 2019 00:09

nam wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:
TBH I think the USP and secret sauce on the Rafale is passive BVR strike via the spectra and mica IIR. A lightly loaded Rafale with 6 Mica would be very discrete and have a rather small RCS.
Fighters nowadays know when their jet's are been tracked and locked by enemy radar.

How will they know if the enemy has not turned on its radar and is completely passive. IIRC - the Rafale could do this either with the help of datalinked inputs from MKI or AEW. There is reason to believe that the Spectra in itself allows locating and possibly targeting - totally passive. Not tot mention the long ranged OSF

However they can notice a BVR launch as well, like our Su30's did and take evasive method.

Our Su-30s probably were warned first and foremost because they were painted by the apg 68, not to mention Netra AEW, which would alert them to launches. It is unlikely that fighters can easily detect missile launches passively i.e. without turning on their own radar or without AEW cover. They would know that they are being targeted via RWR but missile launches? Unlikely. Although I would like some gurujan to confirm - Karan, where are you?

To overcome this, fighters are placed outside your adversary's radar envelope. AWACS tracks the target, datalink it to fighters deployed outside the radar envelope and they fire off a BVR. In this scenario doesn't matter if it is Radar or IR BVR, the adversary will in the NEZ zone by the time be realizes. You are hitting him from the blind side. Ofcourse enemy AWACS will monitoring your fighters placed in the blind side.

This doesn't make sense at all - you can't launch a BVR outside your radar envelope unless some X band FCR is providing MCU. How the heck will the missile be guided towards a maneuvering target unless the shooter can constantly track the target (in case of radar guided AAM)? Someone HAS to paint the target. And AFAIK no AWACs can do this. It has to be another fighter radar, in which case, the target's RWR will be alerted. Of course, the missile could be coming in from a silent shooter and a different direction altogether. IIRC the Gripen was excellent at creating a networked picture and firing off such shots.

In case of IIR Mica, the BVR launch will be guided supposedly by the Spectra or OSF and at closer range by the seeker itself. Hence the point that a lightly loaded Rafale (very small RCS) with IIR Mica will be a real PIA for TSP defences. Even if they do detect it incoming - it will probably be too late. The RAfale in this sense is the exact opposite of the MKI, which can be detected at further distances thanks to its large frame and lack of inherent lo features. Otoh, the Rafale was designed around some lo features - S shaped ducts, serrated edges etc.. and even active cancellation via Spectra. Dassault has for the longest time advertised "discrete" as the USP of the Rafale over other eurocanards. Hence the smallish radar in the nose compared to say a Typhoon. The idea was to emphasize the Spectra/OSF/RBE as a combination more than just one sensor becoming the primary one. Note how the French were harping about Rafales raiding into Libya completely undetected by the AD.

Remember the PAF pilot in Kargil, who lost his mind when he was locked on by Mig29! How did he know he was getting a R77 up his Mushraff soon?

The PAF pilot lost his mind because he was continuously painted by the fulcrum with its Zhuk No19 (which was essential to guide the Sarh R27), never knowing if an Alamo was about to smash him to bits. Note that he wouldn't really know how close the missile would be considering that as a SARH its not really emitting at all.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Sep 2019 00:45

nam wrote: Fighters nowadays know when their jet's are been tracked and locked by enemy radar. If your RWR is continuously beeping for X band, even if you fly left or right, then it means you are been tracked and a BVR is on it's way very soon. Yes his Ku Band RWR will not beep, when Mica IR comes near.

However they can notice a BVR launch as well, like our Su30's did and take evasive method.

Maybe Karan saar can correct me here but I believe while the RWR can tell you when you are being painted by a hostile radar, and can also tell if the radar has locked onto you, it cannot actually detect a missile launch. But if the Radar does lock onto you you can assume that a missile is on its way and take evasive action.

However, this does not apply if the missile is fired in Track-while-scan (TWS) mode. You will continue to receive a warning about being painted but not locked on in that scenario. So you don't know when the missile gets launched even approximately. You will know a missile is heading for you only when the missile's own seeker goes active. This applies to active-homing missiles like the AMRAAM and R-77 only, not the older SARH ones.

I don't know if the paki F-16's used TWS on Feb 27 (I'm assuming they must have). Our pilots may have guessed when they launched it and taken evasive action, or the Bars radar can detect the missiles them selves even before they go active and the RWR detects it, or they noticed only when the AMRAAM's went active and took evasive action then. It is usually very difficult to evade an AMRAAM in the third case but since the pakis were tactically brilliant and launched the missiles at max engagement range they must have been low on energy by the time they got close to the Su-30's and could be easily evaded. Another possibility is that the F-16's turned tail immediately after firing the AMRAAMs, leaving the missiles without mid-course updates and rendering them practically useless.

Again, I might be mistaken in some of this and will be happy to be corrected.

To overcome this, fighters are placed outside your adversary's radar envelope. AWACS tracks the target, datalink it to fighters deployed outside the radar envelope and they fire off a BVR. In this scenario doesn't matter if it is Radar or IR BVR, the adversary will in the NEZ zone by the time be realizes. You are hitting him from the blind side. Ofcourse enemy AWACS will monitoring your fighters placed in the blind side.

All in all, cat and mouse game.

Remember the PAF pilot in Kargil, who lost his mind when he was locked on by Mig29! How did he know he was getting a R77 up his Mushraff soon?

In 1999 our Mig-29's could only fire R-27's not R-77's. So they had to get a radar lock on the paki bandit before they could fire off an R-27. That will show up as a Spike on the paki's RWR and send him diving into the Himalayan valleys since he had no BVR missiles of his own to counter it with.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Sep 2019 00:55

Kartik wrote:From Ainonline..Jon Lake actually quoted IDRW, if you can believe it!

He quotes IDRW who quotes Prasun Sengupta. I wouldnt take any of those ISE seriously, unless they are confirmed by some other source. This is peak internet, the statement about SAAWs being EMP devices gives it away, that's a favorite Prasun fancy.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Sep 2019 00:56

Nachiket, excellent points and you are bang on target.

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Sep 2019 01:34

nachiket wrote: Maybe Karan saar can correct me here but I believe while the RWR can tell you when you are being painted by a hostile radar, and can also tell if the radar has locked onto you, it cannot actually detect a missile launch. But if the Radar does lock onto you you can assume that a missile is on its way and take evasive action.

Not using RWR, ofcourse. I should have been more specific. BVR launches detected by the jet radar.

There are literature where pilots boast how using their radar, they are able to tell what weapons the adversary fighters carry.
Although BVRs have low rcs, enough for a good sensitive radar to detect it's RCS. And the biggest giveaway of a BVR is ..speed.

There is nothing else around with a low RCS and coming at you at Mach 3-4!The radar just needs to look for a combo of low rcs range and very high speed.

Now with AESA radar, it gets more complicated for RWR. If your RWR is not tuned to detect freq "range" of the adversary AESA, then your are cooked. The AESA will switch freq randomly and you may not even know you are been searched, forget being tracked.

Wider the band of AESA, wider the problem for RWR.

nam · Post by **nam** » 28 Sep 2019 02:06

Cain Marko wrote: How will they know if the enemy has not turned on its radar and is completely passive. IIRC - the Rafale could do this either with the help of datalinked inputs from MKI or AEW. There is reason to believe that the Spectra in itself allows locating and possibly targeting - totally passive. Not tot mention the long ranged OSF

The AWACS on your side will let you know, there is a jet out there, who if it's radar is switched on should see you on search. If your RWR is not beeping, it means that bogey is being quite, probably receiving data about your position from it's AWACS.

Our Su-30s probably were warned first and foremost because they were painted by the apg 68, not to mention Netra AEW, which would alert them to launches. It is unlikely that fighters can easily detect missile launches passively i.e. without turning on their own radar or without AEW cover. They would know that they are being targeted via RWR but missile launches? Unlikely. Although I would like some gurujan to confirm - Karan, where are you?

There would have been multiple locks b/w IAF & PAF on Feb 27. As long as both were on their side of LoC, nobody fired a BVR, until PAF broke the rule. Fighter radar can look for low rcs and Mach 3 flight and voila you know it is a BVR. Nothing else flies at Mach 3!

To overcome this, fighters are placed outside your adversary's radar envelope. AWACS tracks the target, datalink it to fighters deployed outside the radar envelope and they fire off a BVR. In this scenario doesn't matter if it is Radar or IR BVR, the adversary will in the NEZ zone by the time be realizes. You are hitting him from the blind side. Ofcourse enemy AWACS will monitoring your fighters placed in the blind side.

This doesn't make sense at all - you can't launch a BVR outside your radar envelope unless some X band FCR is providing MCU. How the heck will the missile be guided towards a maneuvering target unless the shooter can constantly track the target (in case of radar guided AAM)? Someone HAS to paint the target. And AFAIK no AWACs can do this. It has to be another fighter radar, in which case, the target's RWR will be alerted. Of course, the missile could be coming in from a silent shooter and a different direction altogether. IIRC the Gripen was excellent at creating a networked picture and firing off such shots.

S band AWACS will not have precision like X band, but will have enough to allow a BVR reach a position, where it's seeker can get a adversary in it's envelope.

AWACS let's location info to fighter, fighter fires a BVR with datalink updating the adversary's position and then BVR seeker takes over. If adversary's radar has not detected the launch, then only when the BVR seeker is turned on, will he know about the threat.

You would need X band tracking if you are targeting one specific fighter. If it is a group of fighters and bvr is suppose to get anyone of them, then S band from AWACS should be enough for the BVR to reach a location and turn on it's seeker.

Spyder SAM uses S band radar with Derby. So similar concept.