VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 08 Oct 2019 22:20

Ganesh_S wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Mki can provide positional data because it has an fcr. Awacs can't do this afaik. Can someone please clarify? If Awacs could directly guide missiles, why do you need fighters? An Awacs platform could carry some seriously heavy long ranged missiles and just guide these to enemy targets or just let the fighters fire off the missiles and zoom away - let the AWAC do the guidance.

I'm being a little facetious here but I can't see AWACs guiding missiles directly for a number of reasons including the need to fly close enough to get a good lock.


This was a proposed scenario in the tele series dog fights of the future @3:09:19
https://youtu.be/DWyyCkLgj_E
The idea was to use a b1 lancer as a bvr platform where in the f22 having expended its missiles would relay the information by a secure broadband database. Not sure how the f22s would go undetected having expended its missiles or how the b1 Lancers would guide the missiles. Too much sci-fi stuff for a layman like me.


That concept went nowhere but the B-1 carries a fairly large and gimballed X-Band phased array radar which is capable of fire control and is upgradable with Additional Air-Air modes. They are currently planning to upgrade that to an AESA antenna.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Ganesh_S » 08 Oct 2019 22:24

Perhaps the logic then was using the updated target coordinates and terminal detection being done by the missiles. Hit or miss approch

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 08 Oct 2019 22:32

No, the logic was just as some other aircraft would be carrying the missile - just more of them. The B-1's Fire Control Radar would provide the missile updates or could hand off targeting to a forward based asset. This is doable now as well though the process is not as simple or as fool proof as it is often laid out to be (I've heard there is PK impact but cannot confirm this). This would have been akin to two F-22's jointly targeting. Just one of those would be a B-1 with a very large magazine.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ramana » 08 Oct 2019 22:34

vimal wrote:Breaking News: Rajnath Singh flies in Rafale fighter jet in France



He has flown the Tejas and the Rafale.

Looks like he will personally deliver flowers to Bakistan when needed.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby JayS » 08 Oct 2019 22:35

Karan M wrote:I am talking of the surface, not the fasteners. There is a documentary on the Rafale, where they have the maintenance crew sand down the surface post flight.

That must be the RAM coating maintenance, I am guessing.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby JayS » 08 Oct 2019 22:36

nam wrote:Rafale seems to have really good "rivet management"! Quite clean surface

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGWhOMCWoAIxlPZ?format=jpg&name=large
http://rafale.co.in/img/gallery/_F5W7347.jpg

If we could reach this level of build, we would have done well.

You should see the LCA SPs and ALH from up close.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 08 Oct 2019 22:44

Dassault delivers first Rafale to India

Image

They think the Defence Minister's name is Raksha Mantri. :D

New Delhi has taken delivery of its first four Dassault Rafales, completing a decades-long odyssey to obtain a new fighter for the Indian air force

The jets were handed over to Indian defence minister Raksha Mantri at a ceremony held at Dassault's Merignac production line near Bordeaux in southwest France.

Part of a 36-unit order placed by the government of Narendra Modi in 2016, the off-the-shelf acquisition of the Rafales was not without controversy, coming shortly after the cancellation of the long-running Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contest.

In 2018, then Air Chief Marshall BS Dhanoa described the 2016 decision to obtain the 36 aircraft as an “emergency buy” to shore up India’s falling number of fighter units: the nation has 33 combat squadrons against an authorised strength of 42.5.

Though the Rafale was also the winner of the 126-aircraft MMRCA competition, this deal collapsed despite three years of negotiations, with stumbling blocks including disagreements over production, intellectual property, and whether Dassault or Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), which was to build 108 examples locally, would be responsible for the quality of India-assembled jets.

Under offset commitments related to the latest deal, the French manufacturer has established a joint venture in India - Dassault Reliance Aerospace - which will manufacture several components for the Falcon 2000 business jet.

“I am particularly honored to host this ceremony today as India is part of Dassault Aviation’s DNA. The long and trustful relationship we share is an undeniable success and underpins my determination of establishing for the long-term Dassault Aviation in India.

"We stand alongside the Indian air force since 1953, we are totally committed to fulfill its requirements for the decades to come and to be part of India’s ambitious vision for the future," says Eric Trappier, Dassault chief executive.

Though the 36 Rafales give a boost to the Indian air force, the need for modernisation is as urgent as ever: in early 2018, the defence ministry issued a request for information (RFI) for 110 new fighters, essentially a reboot of MMRCA, with local production again a major element.

Interested parties are Lockheed Martin with the F-16V (rebadged as the F-21 for the competition), the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Saab Gripen E/F, and Eurofighter Typhoon. There is also separate 57-aircraft requirement for a carrier-borne fighter.

In addition, New Delhi continues work on indigenous programmes such as the HAL Tejas and the low-observable Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby M_Joshi » 08 Oct 2019 23:05



We should take out one of these beauties from the squadron & reverse engineer it to hilt.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby neerajb » 08 Oct 2019 23:08

manjgu wrote:neerajb...i am arguing that AWACS and even 1950's radars can place self a/c withing visual range of enemy a/c. the imaginary box u mention is much bigger than visual ranges. seems Meteors and amraams D have this datalinking capability. i need to meet Hansel v soon !!!


I saw a documentary on Su-15 Flagon which had some visuals of hands-off GCI intercept. Looks like pilot was responsible for takeoffs and landings. Once airborne, GCI controller took over the flying to intercept. It had some actuators in cockpit to actually move the control columns, throttle etc. Not sure if aircraft shared the radar picture as well with GCI or pilot did that. In short, technology existed in past to actually take the aircraft close enough to the target using ground radar and then use aircraft's radar for actual fire control. Replace the aircraft with BVR aam and GCI with AWACS and I don't see a reason why it can't be done today!

Cheers....

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Zynda » 08 Oct 2019 23:09

Karan M wrote:I am talking of the surface, not the fasteners. There is a documentary on the Rafale, where they have the maintenance crew sand down the surface post flight.

Interesting! If you can find a link for the documentary, please do post it when you get some time.

AFAIK, Sanding down composite would be part of a field or major repair. There would be loss of paint involved during Sanding and the area has to be repainted before next flight. Would be very manually intensive.

I think JayS has got it right. Could be prepping the surface for paint/RAM coating after a minor field repair or something like that. Anyways, I should watch the documentary before making further comments.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 08 Oct 2019 23:27

Zynda wrote: I should watch the documentary before making further comments.


https://www.amazon.com/Rafale-Secret-Pl ... B07C8QQTGT

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby nam » 08 Oct 2019 23:30

I have seen photos of LCA up close. The areas where it is composite, without access panel, they are very good. However the Rafale seems to have been designed to reduce the amount of access points, thus not having may riveted panels.

So there is a design criteria as well, where the LRUs can be easily removed(& replaced) , but with reduced number of access points or having common access for multiple LRU's.

Read that the chinese are using such ideas on J20, hence they are creating large part of airframe as single piece. Not sure how much of it is true, given Chini claim lot of things.
Last edited by nam on 09 Oct 2019 00:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Oct 2019 23:31

Zynda wrote:
Karan M wrote:I am talking of the surface, not the fasteners. There is a documentary on the Rafale, where they have the maintenance crew sand down the surface post flight.

Interesting! If you can find a link for the documentary, please do post it when you get some time.

AFAIK, Sanding down composite would be part of a field or major repair. There would be loss of paint involved during Sanding and the area has to be repainted before next flight. Would be very manually intensive.




No Karan is correct.

"Rafale Documentary on Amazon PRIME" showed with voice commentary how after every flight they sand down especially intake and below areas....

Watch that Documentary its very detailed.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Indranil » 08 Oct 2019 23:59

LCA has a bigger percentage of wet area made of composites. Yes, the Rafale benefits from more design iterations. Wait for MWF, we will be there.

Dassault ridiculed HAL saying that it is not capable of absorbing ToT to manufacture Rafale to the tolerances that it was designed to. Today LCA LSP panels are built to the same tolerances as the Rafale.

Mk1A will already have fewer rivets by using easy release fasteners for panels that require more frequent removal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby vimal » 09 Oct 2019 00:06

Arey baba this is Rafale thread!
This forum has been discussing Rafale for over a decade and now that it's here, we are discussing 1950 awacs and what not.

Happy Vijayadashmi to all and I'm glad that our def min performed Ayudh puja for the new platform in public!


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Peregrine » 09 Oct 2019 00:34

“Rafale jets part of self-defence, not aggression”: Rajnath Singh after sortie

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh took a sortie in a Rafale jet after the official handover ceremony of the first fighter aircraft acquired by the IAF. He spoke to the media after the sortie and clarified that India would get its delivery of 18 jets by February 2021 and all 36 aircraft by 2022. He also stated clearly that the jets were part of the nation’s self-defence and not a sign of aggression to anyone.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Zynda » 09 Oct 2019 00:49

I don't have access to Amazon Prime. So can't watch the documentary...perhaps some day. Sounds interesting though...

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 09 Oct 2019 01:01

nam wrote:I have seen photos of LCA up close. The areas where it is composite, without access panel, they are very good. However the Rafale seems to have been designed to reduce the amount of access points, thus not having may riveted panels.

So there is a design criteria as well, where the LRUs can be easily removed(& replaced) , but with reduced number of access points or having common access for multiple LRU's.

Read that the chinese are using such ideas on J20, hence they are creating large part of airframe as single piece. Not sure how much of it is true, given Chini claim lot of things.


What makes you think the access panels are not composites.? :D They are very much made up of composites. LCA SP easily match the surface finish of M2K. The American Jets or Rafale as well for that matter seems to have a thick coating on them which hide better. There are actually thousands of bolts everywhere. We see only a few which are for regular access. Rest are permenently sealed and buried under the paint. I spent some time observing F/A 18, Rafale, M2K and LCA SP this time during AI in the static display.

The Russian things look crap in comparison. Especially the oldies like MiG21/27/29. Su30MKI is better of all russian jets in terms of visual finish IMO.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Zynda » 09 Oct 2019 01:09

Indranil wrote:Dassault ridiculed HAL saying that it is not capable of absorbing ToT to manufacture Rafale to the tolerances that it was designed to. Today LCA LSP panels are built to the same tolerances as the Rafale.

Actually, was gonna mention this. When Dassualt conducted an audit of HAL's composite manufacturing techniques, I think HAL was laying up individual plies manually compared to auto method used by Dassualt.

The surface finish obtained in both ALH & LCA are really excellent. Perhaps HAL has upgraded their facilities to do auto layup as well.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby dkhare » 09 Oct 2019 01:38

While reading through the Huskit article on Top 10 BVR Fighter Aircraft 2019, it said the following on the Rafale while comparing it to the Typhoon:
The Rafale F3R upgrade standard — introducing Meteor capability— was qualified in late 2018 , but it was not until September 2019 that the new missile was seen on squadron aircraft. Though initial operational capability is yet to be officially declared, it is likely that it the capability is either already in place or extremely close. This puts Rafale ahead of Typhoon for the first time since our BVR top 10 began in 2013. Typhoon still enjoys a thrust-to-weight advantage (giving its Meteors potentially greater range and energy) and two (rather than one-) way data-link with its the new weapon, but these may be mitigated by the Rafale’s more sophisticated radar and defensive aids.


The text in bold and red regarding one-way Vs two-way data links was a bit of a concern:
1. Does the Rafale have a one-way only data link to the Meteor and not a two-way (bi-directional) link? Is this information accurate?
2. I wonder if the ISE addresses this.

When the Astra Mk2 & SFDR come along - assuming they will add bi-directional links - we would want the ability to send/receive updates to/from the Meteor, Astra Mk2 & SFDR on our air-dominance fighters to exploit their full range and extend NEZs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2019 01:48

JayS wrote:
nam wrote:I have seen photos of LCA up close. The areas where it is composite, without access panel, they are very good. However the Rafale seems to have been designed to reduce the amount of access points, thus not having may riveted panels.

So there is a design criteria as well, where the LRUs can be easily removed(& replaced) , but with reduced number of access points or having common access for multiple LRU's.

Read that the chinese are using such ideas on J20, hence they are creating large part of airframe as single piece. Not sure how much of it is true, given Chini claim lot of things.


What makes you think the access panels are not composites.? :D They are very much made up of composites. LCA SP easily match the surface finish of M2K. The American Jets or Rafale as well for that matter seems to have a thick coating on them which hide better. There are actually thousands of bolts everywhere. We see only a few which are for regular access. Rest are permenently sealed and buried under the paint. I spent some time observing F/A 18, Rafale, M2K and LCA SP this time during AI in the static display.

The Russian things look crap in comparison. Especially the oldies like MiG21/27/29. Su30MKI is better of all russian jets in terms of visual finish IMO.

8)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 09 Oct 2019 01:54

There was a tender for procuring layup machines by HAL earlier this year. It is not big deal setting up autolayup machine and making composites using it. In fact a bunch of skilled labours can be taught to make composite parts easily. Not all that difficult. Also there is nothing great about autolay up in terms of quality compared to hand lay up. Only that Autolay up is automated and can be faster. But then some tricky parts still need hand layup. Creating a composite manufacturing process from scratch is a challenge. Once its done, a nicely written set of instructions and decent training to an average skill labour is all it takes. We have done excellent R&D work in composites so far. Copying shop floor process is far simpler job. LCA fin making process is a very good example of innovation. Does anyone know any other aircraft which has single piece Composite Fin..? I am trying to find one, other than LCA.

ADA developed a SW for layup called AutoLay or something. Airbus bought it for their use in early 2000s. NAL has done a world class work in composites. There is hardly any investment in this work outside LCA program.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 09 Oct 2019 05:11

So basically 8 twin seater Rafale DH and 28 single seater Rafale EH. And confirmed that No.101 'Falcons' will be the second Rafale squadron, based at Hasimara AFS.

Janes article link

France’s Dassault Aviation has handed over the first of 36 Rafale multirole fighter aircraft that New Delhi ordered in September 2016 for the Indian Air Force (IAF) for EUR7.9 billion (USD8.71 billion).

ndian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh officially accepted the aircraft in a ceremony held at Dassault’s assembly facility in Bordeaux-Mérignac on 8 October that coincided with the Hindu festival of Dussehra and the 87th founding anniversary of the IAF.

Singh said that the new twin-engined aircraft will enhance the capabilities of the IAF, adding that New Delhi’s procurement of the Rafale “will go a long way in strengthening strategic ties between India and France”.

The minister, who had held talks with French President Emmanuel Macron earlier that day, also thanked the French government for providing support and training to IAF pilots.

The aircraft, which bears tail number RB 001, is expected to arrive in India in May 2020 as part of a first batch of four Rafales that will be ferried to Ambala Air Force Station (AFS) for induction into the IAF’s 17 ‘Golden Arrow’ Squadron, which was formally reinstated on 10 September, about eight years after it was decommissioned following the retirement of its Soviet-era MiG-21 aircraft.

Before arriving in India the Rafales will be flown by IAF pilots in France for at least 1,500 hours as part of the testing and acceptance process.

While one Rafale squadron of 18 fighters, including four dual-seat trainers, will be based at Ambala AFS near India’s border with Pakistan, the second one, which will have a similar configuration, will be stationed at Hasimara AFS in northeastern India near the country’s disputed border with China. These aircraft are set to be inducted into the IAF’s 101 ‘Falcons’ Squadron, which is also set to be reinstated.



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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 05:32

Group Captain Harkirat Singh, SC will be the Commanding Officer of No 17 Golden Arrows Squadron - the first Rafale unit in the Indian Air Force and to be based at Ambala air force station. See tweet below. SC stands for Shaurya Chakra (peace time equivalent of the Vir Chakra). Click on the link to read the bio on why he was awarded the SC --> http://gallantryawards.gov.in/Awardee/s ... irat-singh

https://twitter.com/Leopard212/status/1 ... 6409201664 ---> The proudest man of all - Group Captain Harkirat Singh, Shaurya Chakra, Tiger Golden Arrows. A Top Gun, among many many others before him, Groupie Harkirat becomes the first CO of a first new type. First Rafale Tiger, that's what he will forever be known!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 05:41

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/11 ... 3697671169 ---> Interesting to see the Vice Chief of Naval Staff with the Defence Minister at the Rafale induction ceremony. Remember, Rafale is in contention for an order for 57 maritime aircraft as well. (my note - standing in the middle in uniform is the Vice Chief of Naval Staff - Vice Admiral G Ashok Kumar.)

https://twitter.com/pkudva1983/status/1 ... 8592395264 ---> More interesting is presence of Defence Secretary and DG Acquisition (my note - standing at extreme left. His name is Ajay Kumar). Significant.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:05

Zynda wrote:I don't have access to Amazon Prime. So can't watch the documentary...perhaps some day. Sounds interesting though...

An interesting video and a must watch.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:09

For folks who have OCD like myself and enjoy serial numbers, below is RB 005.

RB 001 is the aircraft that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh flew in earlier today.

RB 008 is the aircraft that has all the India Specific Enhancements and will be the last aircraft to arrive in May 2022. All the ISEs are expected to be fully certified by then. RB008 is currently flying. By Sept 2022, the remaining 35 Rafales will also be upgraded at the rate of 7 aircraft per month and will be done in India. Mainly software upgrades.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:43

The 4 Rafale add-ons that India could opt for later
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/10 ... later.html
08 Oct 2019

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Oct 2019 06:47

Picture below also includes ground personnel (most are in front row, kneeling). Among the batch of pilots below, lies future Air Marshals and perhaps even an Air Chief Marshal!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1181584549136015360 ---> Nice! The Indian Rafale team in France, including pilots currently under training, with Defence Minister Rajnath Singh after his flight today.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2019 07:32

This is an historic occasion as it is the first new foreign fighter type acquired by the IAF in the 21st. century after the SU-30s in 2002 almost 2 decades ago.The LCA Tejas is a desi product. Let's hope the French offer more sqds. at reasonable cost as anything over $100M would be unaffordable given alternative options at half the price.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Barath » 09 Oct 2019 07:34

dkhare wrote:While reading through the Huskit article on Top 10 BVR Fighter Aircraft 2019, it said the following on the Rafale while comparing it to the Typhoon:

The text in bold and red regarding one-way Vs two-way data links was a bit of a concern:
1. Does the Rafale have a one-way only data link to the Meteor and not a two-way (bi-directional) link? Is this information accurate?
2. I wonder if the ISE addresses this.


DID also states the same

"it won’t be ready until 2018. That will make Rafale the last European fighter to integrate the Meteor, about 3-4 years later than the JAS-39 Gripen. It will also be the only fighter with a 1-way Meteor datalink instead of a 2-way link."

And it is referenced on other forums such as here, along with generic advantages of data link (potential for better ecm resistance, terminal guidance by fighter, guidance, hit/kill assessments). Ref: "A two-way datalink enables the launch aircraft to provide mid-course target updates or retargeting if required, including data from off-board third parties. The datalink is capable of transmitting missile information such as functional and kinematic status, information about multiple targets, and notification of target acquisition by the seeker."

Wiki for Rafale does state that EF,Gripen and rafale have two way data links to Meteor, but the corresponding reference is inaccessible online.

I'd say that the reporting seems consistent...

BTW, one Rafale firing Meteor and handing off targeting guidance to another has been tested in 2017.

A bunch of possibly disparate and possibly connected facts : The F4 standard brings in a new datalink and the first set of F4 is expected to be available ~2022. India will receive the last of its Rafales by 2022 ; India can draw upon F4 standard

If you trust IDRWs list of ISE, it seems unlikely to be one of them ; in any case there are only 13 ISE

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Indranil » 09 Oct 2019 08:35

I saw the Rafale video. That's made for wowing the masses. But, one can pick up a thing or two of interest through closer inspection.

1. They do show how they get the finish over the screws and rivets. It is exactly how JayS has specified. Fill the gaps with resin, sand it off and paint over it. As long as you dont open the panels, you don't see them. Nothing magical.

2. They specify the tolerance for the fit. 10 microns. They also show how it is measured. This is exactly how HAL does it now. Actually, I read HAL aims for tolerances between 4 and 10 microns.

3. The resurfacing of the LEs is part of the after flight inspection was shown. They seem to go at them with a very fine grain rotary scrubber, kind of what is used to buff car paint. It was not clear if this is used all the time, or if it is used when blemishes from FOD are found.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 08:44

JayS wrote:
Karan M wrote:I am talking of the surface, not the fasteners. There is a documentary on the Rafale, where they have the maintenance crew sand down the surface post flight.

That must be the RAM coating maintenance, I am guessing.


Yes, could be, because they sanded down the intakes too and that portion definitely did not have composite structures judging by the images above.
They also mentioned that sometimes composites get damaged and they repair them using patches etc. So the combination of composites + RAM, and/or RAM. Which is why all this judge finish by eye-balling is misleading. There is RAM on top of the airframe everyplace.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 08:48

Zynda wrote:
Indranil wrote:Dassault ridiculed HAL saying that it is not capable of absorbing ToT to manufacture Rafale to the tolerances that it was designed to. Today LCA LSP panels are built to the same tolerances as the Rafale.

Actually, was gonna mention this. When Dassualt conducted an audit of HAL's composite manufacturing techniques, I think HAL was laying up individual plies manually compared to auto method used by Dassualt.

The surface finish obtained in both ALH & LCA are really excellent. Perhaps HAL has upgraded their facilities to do auto layup as well.


I am not too sure automation is the real issue vis a vis Dassault vs HAL. Actually Rafale is very manpower intensive, because clearly the French found it easier to skill people vs creating automation for every task. It is exactly this level of human involvement that is the issue. HAL's charges were higher, and Dassault's reluctance in both transferring the manufacturing tech to folks and also, taking guarantee for the HAL's workers. What I am saying is the composites are nowhere near the challenge, automation would help HALs case. Its the myriad small widgets and components that go into the Rafale, that are literally finished by hand at dedicated workstations, and that is the real challenge.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2019 08:53

Indranil wrote:I saw the Rafale video. That's made for wowing the masses. But, one can pick up a thing or two of interest through closer inspection.


Yes, I was actually watching parts of it on silent. Our mindset is very different vis a vis the folks who usually watch these videos. Not sure if that's a good thing. :lol:

1. They do show how they get the finish over the screws and rivets. It is exactly how JayS has specified. Fill the gaps with resin, sand it off and paint over it. As long as you dont open the panels, you don't see them. Nothing magical.

2. They specify the tolerance for the fit. 10 microns. They also show how it is measured. This is exactly how HAL does it now. Actually, I read HAL aims for tolerances between 4 and 10 microns.

3. The resurfacing of the LEs is part of the after flight inspection was shown. They seem to go at them with a very fine grain rotary scrubber, kind of what is used to buff car paint. It was not clear if this is used all the time, or if it is used when blemishes from FOD are found.


They used that scrubber all over the aircraft including right into intakes, but mostly near the front which is heavily composite. On later recollection, near the intake as well. It does seem that after flight, discontinuities are common. This would imply a thick RAM layer.

There were a couple of other things I picked up about the Rafale, but can't remember it at hand. Basically stuff we haven't yet discussed on the forum.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 09 Oct 2019 11:57

Zynda wrote:I don't have access to Amazon Prime. So can't watch the documentary...perhaps some day. Sounds interesting though...



very interesting, especially the smell of burning hair in many sickular commie/congi/urban naxal quarters about the Shastra puja.


There will be Hue Cry by the Foreign Funded NGOs/Activists/BuddhiJeevis/Traitors ,....




Image


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2019 12:58

Rakesh wrote:For folks who have OCD like myself and enjoy serial numbers, below is RB 005.

RB 001 is the aircraft that Defence Minister Rajnath Singh flew in earlier today.

RB 008 is the aircraft that has all the India Specific Enhancements and will be the last aircraft to arrive in May 2022. All the ISEs are expected to be fully certified by then. RB008 is currently flying. By Sept 2022, the remaining 35 Rafales will also be upgraded at the rate of 7 aircraft per month and will be done in India. Mainly software upgrades.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGWhM-DVUAAIfCw.jpg


I have also been looking at it and have been looking for patch design too

Form the pics we have so far first 8 are dual seater and others after them will be single

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Vayusena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2019 13:54

JayS wrote:
nam wrote:I have seen photos of LCA up close. The areas where it is composite, without access panel, they are very good. However the Rafale seems to have been designed to reduce the amount of access points, thus not having may riveted panels.

So there is a design criteria as well, where the LRUs can be easily removed(& replaced) , but with reduced number of access points or having common access for multiple LRU's.

Read that the chinese are using such ideas on J20, hence they are creating large part of airframe as single piece. Not sure how much of it is true, given Chini claim lot of things.


What makes you think the access panels are not composites.? :D They are very much made up of composites. LCA SP easily match the surface finish of M2K. The American Jets or Rafale as well for that matter seems to have a thick coating on them which hide better. There are actually thousands of bolts everywhere. We see only a few which are for regular access. Rest are permenently sealed and buried under the paint. I spent some time observing F/A 18, Rafale, M2K and LCA SP this time during AI in the static display.

The Russian things look crap in comparison. Especially the oldies like MiG21/27/29. Su30MKI is better of all russian jets in terms of visual finish IMO.


I do not know the obsession behind "smooth surfaces" and curves !! ..its not a beauty contest anyway and of course it could matter in terms of RCS., that said its impossible to build a plane without rivets joints fasteners and welds. All western aircraft ( and their submarines ) are coated not just with paint but also " materials " and sometimes exotic radar-absorbing stuff as well, contributing to their sleek look that hides their warts and all, think a lot of makeup :(( ., [the western subs similarly use in addition to anechoic material various types of coatings to reduce thermal and acoustic signatures ]., The Russkie ones with make up :mrgreen: is gonna look better than any western counterpart ! ( ask anyone who has dated a Russian girl :mrgreen: )

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 09 Oct 2019 15:45

kit wrote:
I do not know the obsession behind "smooth surfaces" and curves !! ..its not a beauty contest anyway and of course it could matter in terms of RCS., that said its impossible to build a plane without rivets joints fasteners and welds. All western aircraft ( and their submarines ) are coated not just with paint but also " materials " and sometimes exotic radar-absorbing stuff as well, contributing to their sleek look that hides their warts and all, think a lot of makeup :(( ., [the western subs similarly use in addition to anechoic material various types of coatings to reduce thermal and acoustic signatures ]., The Russkie ones with make up :mrgreen: is gonna look better than any western counterpart ! ( ask anyone who has dated a Russian girl :mrgreen: )


PAKFA looks nice BTW. Finishing quality indicates a lot of things not just visual appeal. In Aviation they what looks good, flies good. :D

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 09 Oct 2019 15:59

What exactly is the problem with sashtra puja

The IA has been performing this puja for well over a century and it is part and parcel of our culture.



twitter


This video was y'day's SM sensation!

Every self proclaimed atheist who mock Hindu beliefs in the name of secularism shud be ashamed of seeing this Railway employee performing "Sashtra Puja" to rail, Hindus see GODs literally in everything, it's a faith beyond feelings.



https://twitter.com/Ethirajans/status/1181749875089657856


#Rafale. Wood is missed for the trees.Most Channels are discussing the Puja and its merits/demerits.The induction of the Aircraft and its military advantages have taken the backseat. this is the standard of the Anchors and worse the Panelists.Will they ever reform?


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