VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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ramana
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

The IAF is unwilling to commit her meagre resources on anything else at the moment. While understandable, that is sad. The IAF has nearly 300 of them and they really need to be upgraded ASAP.
It is not their resources, it's the govt's job to find the resources. They should seek the upgrade to be a relevant fighting force.
This quest for 114 MRFA is like Sagara's son's quest for Ganga to get moksha.

Tejas Mk2 is the path to that.
IAF should focus on combat capability, not on Catalog lusting.
They should ask MoD to provide a development program for drop-in replacement for Al-31F.
The Ukraine crisis has shown the need for a secure supply chain.
Even a simple nut missing from that chain will ground you.
Yet they consistently seek foreign imports from dubious suppliers.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Little Corporal Macron still rules supreme. What did this mean for rafale? Will the chai biskoot end and an announcement be made soon? Amy meetings between the two? Afaik, every major leader has met modi since the ukr situation except Macron. Maybe a visit and announcement soon?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Bad timing actually... with the heightened threat perception due to Russian invasion, all kinds of arms, including platforms like Rafale and it's bombs and missiles will be in high demand for some years to come.

India will have to pay through its nose, and wait until other EU countries get preferential delivery.

Idiotic thinking and procurement policy by India. To think that we spend a lot more each year in all kinds of subsidies and most of that money disappears like water poured on sand.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Little Corporal Macron still rules supreme. What did this mean for rafale? Will the chai biskoot end and an announcement be made soon? Amy meetings between the two? Afaik, every major leader has met modi since the ukr situation except Macron. Maybe a visit and announcement soon?
NaMo is going to France next week. He is the first foreign leader to visit Macron, post the latter's re-election.

I don't believe any announcement will be made, but then again this is NaMo. Rumours of used Rafale Ms are surfacing again, along with submarines. If any used Rafale Ms do come, then quite possibly it will be packaged along with a repeat IAF order of at least 36 aircraft. But I don't see how the French Naval Air Arm will be able to spare any of her Rafale Ms (they have barely around 40 of them, if I am not mistaken). The Charles De Gaulle just came out of a massive refit and they will need every airframe available.

Macron has valuable political capital, post election and he will make good use of it. France is (albeit slowly) replacing Russia (about time!) as India's preferred military supplier. Another announcement - but unlikely IMVHO - could be a formal signing of the GTRE-Safran venture for a 110kN turbofan for the AMCA program. Foreign Minister Jaishankar announced it earlier this year.

Rafale Marine: France is studying the sale of second-hand aircraft for the benefit of India
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 15349.html
27 April 2022

A good portion of the article is behind a paywall, so someone cut-and-paste the entire article on another military forum;

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/t ... ost-209165
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:Bad timing actually... with the heightened threat perception due to Russian invasion, all kinds of arms, including platforms like Rafale and it's bombs and missiles will be in high demand for some years to come.

India will have to pay through its nose, and wait until other EU countries get preferential delivery.

Idiotic thinking and procurement policy by India. To think that we spend a lot more each year in all kinds of subsidies and most of that money disappears like water poured on sand.
India will certainly pay through her nose, but that will result in a second Rafale line in India. The first line at Merignac will continue to build Rafales as well, for France and international clients. Dassault just received the first down payment from UAE last week and therefore their orders are now slotted in the order logbook at Merignac.

RAFALE CONTRACT FOR THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES ENTERS INTO THE ORDER BACKLOG
https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/gr ... r-backlog/
19 April 2022

The concern for India is not in delivery schedule, but whether a repeat order will actually come. RaGa will come out with guns blazing and conduct voodoo dances with a NaMo doll, if a repeat Rafale order comes through.

However, a new Rafale deal could end up looking something like this;

* Rafale assembly line for IAF and Navy (but this will have to translate into an order of 100+ aircraft). My assumption is 74 for IAF and 26 for Navy, at minimum. That is 100 aircraft and is the bare minimum that Dassault will need to setup a second line.
* Assembly line will produce around 12 aircraft a year, so around 8+ years to complete 100 aircraft. Please don't remind the IAF about squadron shortage. When there are imports coming, there is no squadron shortage.
* Post assembly, the line will convert into a MROU facility for Indian and international Rafale customers (Indonesia, UAE and Egypt). From nose to tail (including turbofan), a full fledged MROU facility.
* As part of the offsets, the GTRE-Safran venture for a 110kn turbofan for AMCA will be formalized. Remember, the current Air Chief wants the tech from the 114 MRFA deal to flow into the AMCA program. This turbofan program is a viable and visible option for all parties involved.
* When the line at Merignac winds down Rafale production in the 2030s, it will (slowly) scale up for FCAS - France's VLO aircraft program. Like Rafale, FCAS will be delayed. But the Rafale line in India, will continue well into the 2030s. Dassault will make a financial killing operating two Rafale lines and will be laughing all the way to the bank.
* MoD will have the wonderful honour of publishing in their annual achievement brochure that Rafale is 100% indigenous and All Izz Well :)

But just like the Sukhoi Saga, an Indian assembled Rafale will cost more than when built in France. But MoD will say there is ToT and the nation will believe it. And RaGa - to his dying day - will continue to beat the drum that NaMo stole jobs from HAL and gave it to Anil Ambani.

Cost of this magnum opus? $20 billion, at minimum. I am being conservative. But ToT is there...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh,

It's not TOT. It's never TOT. At maximum it will be screwdrivergiri.

Will not teach us anything that we need to learn about how to build a jet fighter.

Unless we are able to put in place an Indian mission computer and radar to this plane.

Along with Indian built current and future munitions.
Last edited by Pratyush on 27 Apr 2022 20:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

I know that Pratyush :) I am being sarcastic about the ToT.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

It's so frustrating. Indian money going overseas sustaining overseas jobs.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The new mantra is Buy Global, Make in India. Just a fancy term for screwdrivergiri. The IAF wants a repeat of the Tata-Airbus C-295 venture.

The few saving graces - if such a deal ever comes through - for India are;

* Rafale is French. So no political hanky-panky to deal with. And no perpetual end use monitoring for the life of the platform.

* The French will look the other way, when India does her jugaad on the Rafale. So just like how the IAF put in Russian R-73s on French Mirage 2000s, expect some Indian (but not foreign) kit on the Rafale. Air-to-air missiles, air-to-ground precision strike weaponry, etc. Not possible on you know who!

* Despite all the public bonhomie between India and the US, all is not well. The recent Rajnath-Jaishankar-Blinken-Austin press conference more or less cemented that theory. There is an understanding of each other's positions, but not an appreciation. It is not a relationship of respect. That does not mean that the relationship is downhill, but rather it is just placid and exists solely because of China. Take China out of the equation and there is nothing of value or significance that the two countries agree on.

This video just came out yesterday. I am amazed at the level of stupidity that exists in GOTUS. It is like the left hand has no clue, what the right hand is doing. For a religious sensitive country like India, to have a formal GOTUS report recommend sanctions on India is mind-boggling. The State Department - to its credit - wisely ignores the recommendations, but that is not how it is perceived in India. Even worse, is the other countries that India is grouped along with is insulting.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

There are only two good outcomes from this grand venture, of it happens, I'll just borrow your words Admiral Saar.
Rakesh wrote: 1.As part of the offsets, the GTRE-Safran venture for a 110kn turbofan for AMCA will be formalized. Remember, the current Air Chief wants the tech from the 114 MRFA deal to flow into the AMCA program. This turbofan program is a viable and visible option for all parties involved.

2. And RaGa - to his dying day - will continue to beat the drum that NaMo stole jobs from HAL and gave it to Anil Ambani.
I think the second one alone is worth 20 billion. :rotfl:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote: I don't believe any announcement will be made, but then again this is NaMo. Rumours of used Rafale Ms are surfacing again, along with submarines. If any used Rafale Ms do come, then quite possibly it will be packaged along with a repeat IAF order of at least 36 aircraft. But I don't see how the French Naval Air Arm will be able to spare any of her Rafale Ms (they have barely around 40 of them, if I am not mistaken). The Charles De Gaulle just came out of a massive refit and they will need every airframe available.

Macron has valuable political capital, post election and he will make good use of it. France is (albeit slowly) replacing Russia (about time!) as India's preferred military supplier. Another announcement - but unlikely IMVHO - could be a formal signing of the GTRE-Safran venture for a 110kN turbofan for the AMCA program. Foreign Minister Jaishankar announced it earlier this year.

Rafale Marine: France is studying the sale of second-hand aircraft for the benefit of India
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 15349.html
27 April 2022

A good portion of the article is behind a paywall, so someone cut-and-paste the entire article on another military forum;

https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/t ... ost-209165
I wouldn't be surprised if something is announced during this visit... Is only to get the western monkey aka demand to move away from Russian maal, off GOIs back.

And as you point out Namo has done it before, when he had far less political clout. So there is precedent. Raga has been rendered utterly inconsequential... And there is no real opposition... Now is the time.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

I doubt he can announce anything related to the Rafale M since the IN is still in the process of evaluating the Super Hornet. My expectation is that nothing major will be announced. If anything, it will be related to the AMCA's engine JV with Snecma. Navy may make a choice by the end of the year, but the IAF's circus will continue for a few more years so there can be no numbers for setting up an Indian assembly line. Basically a complete s**t show.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Wokeism has become political mainstream in Europe these days, the French elites aren't immune to it, au contraire. Renault has just announced closing Russian operations (though there is more to it), many others are shutting/scaling down. EC/Brussels is as woke as you can get and will feel free to interfere if it sees some flimsy reason. Recent success at ramming down all kinds of sanctions against Russia have made UK & EC/Ursula van Der Lying types grow multiple sets of cojones, national sovereignty is highly compromised. Woke justifies any atrocity these days, no recourse possible.

Ex: Russians in UK whose properties are summarily frozen are being denied legal representation. All UK bar associations have told their lawyers not to accept representation of any of these Russians. So much for rules based order. Whats accorded even to murderers and pedos is being denied to "wealthy Russians".

Screwdrivergiri is also de-risking from some enlightened activists stopping deliveries of ready aircraft because of this or that. For ex: "India using Rafales to bomb poor muslims in Azad Kashmir or Pakistan under hindu nationalist govt" kind of reporting making rounds of MSM for a week will see a level of anti-Indian activism that we've not seen until now. Harder to stop dull grey boxes being shipped from various ports and airports. The kind of regular "right wing butcher" coverage NaMo still gets in French press is appalling. Not that it matters in India, but NaMo needs to keep things simple and out of public eye; our babus should keep advance payments to minimum if not zero. Just do your business and get out. Mercantile Europe regrettably, is no longer a hospitable or trustworthy place.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Jay »

Cyrano wrote:Wokeism has become political mainstream in Europe these days, the French elites aren't immune to it, au contraire.
Good god, even in this thread?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by nash »

What are the chances if Dassault uses 100% FDI route to buy reliance defence completely and start its Indian Entity as Dassault India and not only start making MRFA+MRCBF but also MRO of other countries Rafale.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

nash wrote:What are the chances if Dassault uses 100% FDI route to buy reliance defence completely and start its Indian Entity as Dassault India and not only start making MRFA+MRCBF but also MRO of other countries Rafale.
That is what some are claiming. That DRAL (Dassault Reliance Aviation Ltd) will be completely bought out. So Reliance will not have any stake in DRAL. The name will also change to DIAL (Dassault India Aviation Ltd). Just another screwdrivergiri factory....
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Jay wrote:
Cyrano wrote:Wokeism has become political mainstream in Europe these days, the French elites aren't immune to it, au contraire.
Good god, even in this thread?
Only because it has serious implications. The situation now is very different from what it was when the initial deal for 36 was signed.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:The new mantra is Buy Global, Make in India. Just a fancy term for screwdrivergiri. The IAF wants a repeat of the Tata-Airbus C-295 venture.

]

just curious.. the tata c295 is also screw driver tech ?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Dassault recently signed wage increase agreement with its unions, they have plans of starting a huge new facility which I posted here some pages ago. But the real crux will be getting all the skilled technicians needed to fulfil the order book. For this reason, Dassault may be amenable to creating an assembly line & MRO in India. And thats good for India for multiple reasons stated in this thread. I have little expectation that any crown Jewels tech will be shared by Dassalut/snecma/safran - why would they?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The new mantra is Buy Global, Make in India. Just a fancy term for screwdrivergiri. The IAF wants a repeat of the Tata-Airbus C-295 venture.
just curious.. the tata c295 is also screw driver tech ?
Obviously. After doing screwdrivergiri on multiple C-295s, you think Tata will be able to design and manufacturer a successor to the C-295? And India will order C-295 in triple digits (well over 100) in multiple variants - transport, AEW, tanker, maritime recon, etc. That having being said, the C-295 is a good aircraft and will serve the nation well.

HAL did screwdrivergiri on MiG-21, MiG-27, Jaguar, BAe Hawk, Su-30MKI...what did they learn of value? What HAL has learnt with building 50 odd Tejas is of far more immense value to HAL, the Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers and to the nation...than the hundreds of foreign fighters that HAL did screwdrivergiri on. See where the Tejas program has progressed today (in terms of variants), compared to when TD-1 first flew on 04 Jan 2001. Look at the infrastructure created in the country in 20+ years of the first flight of Tejas TD-1.

Turkey built well over a hundred F-16s, but today requires the approval of the US to get any new build F-16s. Same situation with India and the Su-30MKI. We will learn nothing from Rafale assembly and Dassault will rake in huge profits. I have no issue with Airbus, Dassault, LM, Boeing or whoever else in making profits. They are for-profit organizations and they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. More power to them. It is our decision makers in New Delhi that cannot see beyond their nose. They will take resources - out of the finite money pot - to invest in another country, than in their own. Amazing logic.

I am not against a small repeat order of Rafale either. But 114 of them? No way. Sheer waste of money. And even worse, Air HQ wants a ready made solution (which will take eons to arrive), rather than invest in the successor to the Tejas Mk1A. When many on the forum mentioned this (during the SE fighter thread), we were told that BRF is being close minded and cannot see the BIG picture. These folks were pushing for the Make in India, F-16 Block 70/72. In that vein, these folks and Air HQ are on the same page....but just a different aircraft.

MROU facility for the Rafale fleet is valuable. The 110kN turbofan is equally of immense value. Focus on components, not on the entire aircraft. Screwdrivergiri does nothing for the nation. Rest assured, if the Tejas Mk2 does NOT come in triple digits, this very same Air HQ will not order the AMCA Mk2 either. History will repeat herself. By killing the Tejas Mk2, they are killing the AMCA Mk2. And they surely see this (they are smart), but they only want to import. The current crop of leaders at Air HQ have zero faith in HAL to deliver anything. Atmanirbhar Bharat is just a slogan for Air HQ to mention on IAF Day, Republic Day, Independence Day and at press meets.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Something to think about....

Ask Air HQ to place a triple digit order for Tejas Mk2, along with 114 MRFA. Watch the reaction.

We already know the answer to that riddle though ---> "If we buy that many fourth generation fighters, we will have no room or money for any fifth generation fighters. Our goal is AMCA. Atmanirbhar Bharat Ki Jai Ho!!"

But please don't tell Air HQ that one of their predecessors - Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha - wanted well over 200+ Rafale type aircraft. This 114 number is is only so that the PMO does not get an asthma attack. The ultimate goal is perpetual importing.

India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
https://www.livemint.com/Politics/hHJn9 ... -Raha.html
28 Dec 2016
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by bala »

It all starts from AtmaRam - happy about yourself. If you are not, then you try to clutch onto something outside and are forever dissatisfied, jumping onto the next outside shiny thing and it is a vicious cycle. Leadership with no Atmaram are driving decision making in India. Besides the chai-biskoot/champagne/cheese/caviar/foreign trips what tangible benefits does one get. How much money amassed are you going to take when you leave this earth. It is sheer short sightedness to lust after firangi maal.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

bala wrote:It all starts from AtmaRam - happy about yourself. If you are not, then you try to clutch onto something outside and are forever dissatisfied, jumping onto the next outside shiny thing and it is a vicious cycle. Leadership with no Atmaram are driving decision making in India. Besides the chai-biskoot/champagne/cheese/caviar/foreign trips what tangible benefits does one get. How much money amassed are you going to take when you leave this earth. It is sheer short sightedness to lust after firangi maal.
Nations that build MNCs and military industry complexes tailor their war fighting strategies according to their technological capabilities, in short fighting with what they have and progressively build on it. Now in the case of IAF has the long ongoing military multinational exercises would have obviously given them insight into current technology and capabilities ., as i understand our primary enemy is China not the US , so how is Air HQ and IAF war fighting doctrines shaping their technological gap or perceived ones in the context of a 2 front war and thus plan for such a eventuality., numbers still count , a super duper Rafale can still may not be in 2 places at the same time , but 2 Tejas Mk 2 can !

One is left wondering as to what kind of tactics they are planning for wrt China? Does the Rafale really fit the bill? Keep in mind the MRFA is a bit vaguely defined including both single and two engine fighters., the procurement committee should just order 114 Mk2 Tejas!

Without the Tejas there is no MCA or AMCA

But tbh., the most that would happen is another order for 36 Rafale F4 and the rest Mk2 LCA
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by vijayk »

Rakesh wrote:MROU facility for the Rafale fleet is valuable. The 110kN turbofan is equally of immense value. Focus on components, not on the entire aircraft. Screwdrivergiri does nothing for the nation. Rest assured, if the Tejas Mk2 does NOT come in triple digits, this very same Air HQ will not order the AMCA Mk2 either. History will repeat herself. By killing the Tejas Mk2, they are killing the AMCA Mk2. And they surely see this (they are smart), but they only want to import. The current crop of leaders at Air HQ have zero faith in HAL to deliver anything. Atmanirbhar Bharat is just a slogan for Air HQ to mention on IAF Day, Republic Day, Independence Day and at press meets.
100% agreed ...
focus on components.
I hope policy makers are focusing on that
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

kit wrote:just curious.. the tata c295 is also screw driver tech ?
Order is for 56. 16 will be imported. 8 will be assembled from CKD, 8 from SKD kits. Remaining 24 will have some level of indigenization attempted. Expect it to be low.

Obviously there was a scope for much more than 56 orders, so there is a possibility for more to be done, with more orders. (Or if bigger orders had been placed first)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

Barath wrote:
kit wrote:just curious.. the tata c295 is also screw driver tech ?
Order is for 56. 16 will be imported. 8 will be assembled from CKD, 8 from SKD kits. Remaining 24 will have some level of indigenization attempted. Expect it to be low.

Obviously there was a scope for much more than 56 orders, so there is a possibility for more to be done, with more orders. (Or if bigger orders had been placed first)
The calculus may change now that Ukr has effectively been bombed to the stone ages. The An32 may not serve that long perhaps.
Thoughts?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:The calculus may change now that Ukr has effectively been bombed to the stone ages. The An32 may not serve that long perhaps.
Thoughts?
The C-295 will become the mainstay multi-purpose aircraft with the Indian Air Force, along with the Navy and Army. The C-295 will serve the country well. It will be a success story for Airbus' Make in India program. The An-32 is done, along with much dependence on Russian military kit.

The future for India lies in Atmanirbhar Bharat. But since that will only remain a slogan, India will shift to other nations (France, US, Israel). Too many vested interests inside and outside the country to ensure that India will never achieve self reliance. Even worse, is our politicians (and dare I say) and even some retired/serving military personnel that will work towards that endeavour. Like a number of defence ventures (Make in India, Strategic Partnership, etc) started by this Govt, Atmanirbhar Bharat will also go the way of the dodo.

Atmanirbhar Bharat will only limp along with this Govt. Forget any self reliance under a UPA-led Govt.

INC (Indian National Congress) stands for I Need Commission.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:The calculus may change now that Ukr has effectively been bombed to the stone ages. The An32 may not serve that long perhaps.
Thoughts?
The C-295 will become the mainstay multi-purpose aircraft with the Indian Air Force, along with the Navy and Army. The C-295 will serve the country well. It will be a success story for Airbus' Make in India program. The An-32 is done, along with much dependence on Russian military kit.

The future for India lies in Atmanirbhar Bharat. But since that will only remain a slogan, India will shift to other nations (France, US, Israel). Too many vested interests inside and outside the country to ensure that India will never achieve self reliance. Even worse, is our politicians (and dare I say) and even some retired/serving military personnel that will work towards that endeavour. Like a number of defence ventures (Make in India, Strategic Partnership, etc) started by this Govt, Atmanirbhar Bharat will also go the way of the dodo.

Atmanirbhar Bharat will only limp along with this Govt. Forget any self reliance under a UPA-led Govt.

INC (Indian National Congress) stands for I Need Commission.
If our military ethos is maintained and Indian MIC has chance to develop then I am a little more optimistic. A silver lining from the tourofduty imbroglio seems to be a dawning realisation that we got to cut costs. Oneb. good way to do it is buy indian.
Now we may not have the volumes for buying indian in everything - cost effectiveness and all that - but Army at least seems to be realising that they have been their own worst enemies and need to think different.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote: If our military ethos is maintained and Indian MIC has chance to develop then I am a little more optimistic. A silver lining from the tourofduty imbroglio seems to be a dawning realisation that we got to cut costs. Oneb. good way to do it is buy Indian.

Now we may not have the volumes for buying indian in everything - cost effectiveness and all that - but Army at least seems to be realising that they have been their own worst enemies and need to think different.
Sirjee, I sincerely (without any sarcasm) salute your optimism. May what you have typed above turns out to be true.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: If our military ethos is maintained and Indian MIC has chance to develop then I am a little more optimistic. A silver lining from the tourofduty imbroglio seems to be a dawning realisation that we got to cut costs. Oneb. good way to do it is buy Indian.

Now we may not have the volumes for buying indian in everything - cost effectiveness and all that - but Army at least seems to be realising that they have been their own worst enemies and need to think different.
Sirjee, I sincerely (without any sarcasm) salute your optimism. May what you have typed above turns out to be true.
Sirjee there are some smart cookies in Army HQ and if anything it this helps them protect the institution then perhaps it will be something that happens.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

ks_sachin wrote:An32 may not serve that long perhaps.
Thoughts?
The timing and size of orders is important. Drip orders of 10.. 20 etc don't help justify infra/investment for local suppliers..
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

What happened to the last Rafale that is supposed to be delivered in April with all ISEs...?
Any news or updates...?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

LakshmanPST wrote:What happened to the last Rafale that is supposed to be delivered in April with all ISEs...?
Any news or updates...?
Probably has some work still ongoing. I saw this....FWIW....

https://twitter.com/RafaleFan/status/15 ... llWobY_aNw ---> All Rafale EH/DH are now ISE. The RB008 is nothing special compared to the others.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Barath wrote:Order is for 56. 16 will be imported. 8 will be assembled from CKD, 8 from SKD kits. Remaining 24 will have some level of indigenization attempted. Expect it to be low.

Obviously there was a scope for much more than 56 orders, so there is a possibility for more to be done, with more orders. (Or if bigger orders had been placed first)
Additional orders of the C-295 are guaranteed. They will not stop the line at 40. The C-295 will feature in a variety of roles - transport, maritime recon, tanker, AEW, etc. The Navy will also be a customer in the future. The future of the C-295 is bright in India.

The next aircraft that could possibly come (to complement the C-130J and C-17) will be the A-400M. She sits in between the C-17 and the C-130J. Two old articles + one very recent, but are still relevant. The A400M will take more prominence now, with the C-295 deal.

IAF impressed with Airbus A400M
https://www.sps-aviation.com/exclusive/ ... rbus-A400M
19 Aug 2013

Airbus sees potential for A400M in India
https://stratpost.com/airbus-sees-poten ... n-india/2/
07 April 2015

Airbus defence chief eyes strong potential for Asia-Pacific sales
https://www.vishwadha.news/airbus-defen ... fic-sales/
22 Feb 2022
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cybaru »

I think those IL-76 birds have another 20-30 years of life in them left. They will need to be refurbished but I don't think they will be scrapped or should be scrapped.

I do feel that we will have the following for another 20 odd years

26 Il-76 of all flavors
105 AN-32 that are upgraded
12 C130J
11 C17

We might add another 12 C130J if push comes to shove, but don't see the need for A400M just yet.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

So assembly/screwdrivergiri line is likely coming. See below. Disappointing. So Buy Global, Make in India...just like Airbus' C-295 deal. My guess is they are waiting for the naval contest to be completed, to move ahead with the Rafale deal. The export hub for Rafale is just like the F-16 deal that Lockheed Martin proposed during the SE fighter contest. So there will likely be two lines - one at Merginac in France and another in India.

UAE and Indonesia could have their Rafales (or major parts of it) built in India. It would be nice if we could get a MROU facility for the M88 turbofans and for the aircraft itself. The MROU for the turbofans will be worthwhile, especially since Safran and GTRE are partnering on the turbofan development for the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Also below is some news on RB008 - the first ISE standard Rafale for the Indian Air Force. You gotta love the French though - they know what exactly to say. See that title of the article :) India's "other" strategic partner has yet to learn that lesson.

We won’t lecture, but want to boost India’s strategic autonomy, says French ambassador
https://theprint.in/diplomacy/we-want-t ... oy/957096/
16 May 2022
With 35 out of the 36 Rafale fighter jets now with the Indian Air Force even as the last one is undergoing re-engineering, Lenain believes the time has come for more co-development and co-production and to make India an export hub.

“Rafale has been an outstanding programme despite Covid, we delivered all the planes — all 36. The last one is being re-engineered because it was used for training in the beginning, but it’s on schedule, on time. To serve the IAF French industries have been working extra shifts, days, nights and weekends to cope with the Covid lockdown. But we are perfectly on time and the user – Indian Air Force – seems to be totally satisfied,” he said.
Rafale jet deal has been an outstanding programme: Envoy Lenain

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... HM8MOiwhXg ---> Air Marshal DK Patnaik, Chief of Eastern Air Command took the skies on Monday in a Rafale F3R of No.101 "Falcons" squadron, based in Hasimara. Falcons is a multi-role squadron and second unit in the Indian Air Force to be equipped with the Dassault Rafale.

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Couple of days ago, two Rafales of Armée de l'Air in formation flying over France bumped into each other and had some damage to canards, wings etc. Both landed safely and are being assessed.
Just FYI.

Good to know that FBW didn't go all wonky after mid air structural and control surface damage.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Confirmation that Rafale is now part of the India's air component of the nuclear triad....

India tests nuclear-capable Agni-IV ballistic missile
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 043716.cms
06 June 2022
India has also for long modified some Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage-2000 and Jaguar fighters to deliver nuclear gravity bombs. The new French-origin Rafale fighters inducted by the IAF are also capable of doing it.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

The whole purpose of ACM Raha pitch to NaMo was for the Rafale for nuke delivery.
And bare minimum of 2 squadrons.
Raha is the real Rafa!!!
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