VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Why is this so impressive? The MKI with IFR could go from Lohegaon to Ladakh to A&N and return IIRC.

The reach and impact it brings to bear in the IOR along with the brahmos, the rafale can only dream of.

seems like an IAF marketing gimmick to sell the need for more of it's fave... Katrina.
Cain-ji, think of the sensors (Spectra, RBE2 AESA) and weapons (Meteor, SCALP) that the Rafale carries.

Break Down the Door (i.e. destroy the AD umbrella the enemy operates under) with minimal losses of your own. This is vital for air supremacy when flying over land or sea. The ongoing conflict in Ukraine has proved that time and time again.

The other aircraft - especially the Rambha - can also do that, but the attrition losses will be much higher. Endurance (Lohegaon to Ladakh to A&N) is pointless if you cannot deliver your payload in today’s contested AD environment.

Rambha has a vital role in the IAF, but Katrina has to break down the door first.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by konaseema »

Does Rafale carry any ARM now? Did we buy any such weapon? If yes, what is this missile?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Admiralji, I take your point sir, but am not entirely convinced about the rafales current ability vs sea faring flotillas esp. with proper air cover.

Perhaps the rafale scalp combo would work better than an MKI against a heavily defended land based target although the Russians seem to have it's measure for now.

But even here, the situation is somewhat more complicated considering that the rafale carries no ARM AFAIK. A brahmos and kh31 carrying MKI might just break down the door a bit better. Think about it....vs movable ads like s400 and Chinese equivalents, will the scalp make it in time? Will the rafale truly escape detection? It's not a vlo platform after all. If the scalp fails, it has nothing but short range hammer. Hopefully the rudram addresses this issue soon.

Against targets at sea, the rafale simply cannot do this. The only real long range weapon it has is the scalp, which won't be of much use vs ships, which tend to move around and are not stationary. The scalp is not an anti ship weapon and the rafale has to stick to harpoons or exocets neither of which have the range or firepower of the brahmos..

The brahmos otoh is another story. It's range and speed makes it a truly viable anti ship long ranged missile.

In contested airspaces over the sea, the rafale will have to go much closer to targets to launch it's weapons, and therefore contend with high-end ship based ADS, something the rambha doesn't have to worry about with the brahmos. If the space is defended by ship borne fighters, the situation is further exacerbated. Doubt attrition will be any better than MKI/brahmos in this role.

I see a very niche role for the rafale in the IAF for now, esp. for sea denial roles....The rafale does have an edge in a2a with it's excellent radar, spectra, mica iir and meteor combination, and would make a great escort for the MKI, which could act as a brahmos carrier. This would reduce the need to get too close to targets and stay out of high end ship based ADS.

What would probably fare best is a fast bomber/missile carrier escorted by A2A assets like the rafale or MKI. In lieu of that the rambha is the missile carrier and maybe the rafale acts as escort.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

Rakesh and Cain Marko,
The IAF exercise replicates the Falkland Islands scenario.
Demonstrates joint IAF-IN capability. IA was probably on table top part of the exercise.
Uses planes from far away HAshimara and many tactical operations.

I expect another one around Lakshadweep with formation deployed from Sulur.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi »

I think ship- submarine-launched Nirbhay would be a real force multiplier due to its ~1,000 km range.
Brahmos is very good dur to its super high speed. But we need something with much longer ranger
Can e can have a Brahmoski type system with ~1,000 km range ? Maybe we reduce the speed to say Mach 1.5 or so.
A 1,000 + km range ground / ship attack missile with speed Mach 1.5+ could be a killer.


PS. Will a ramjet work at Mach 1.5 ? I am under the impression it is about Mach 3 or so
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

konaseema wrote:Does Rafale carry any ARM now? Did we buy any such weapon? If yes, what is this missile?
See this...

Rafale Combat Success
http://omnirole-rafale.com/wp-content/u ... x-3-15.pdf
Such was the confidence of the French aircrews in their new mount that all missions were conducted without any support from dedicated electronic warfare and SEAD (Suppression of Enemy Air Defences) assets: thanks to its Spectra state-of-the-art electronic warfare/self-defence suite, the Rafale was able to operate at will in a dangerous environment, against a dense network of deadly surface-to-air missile systems. Even more significant is the fact that the Rafale was able to accurately locate enemy air-defence systems and engage them.
Among the Rafale’s weapons, the Scalp stealth cruise missile was singled out for long-range strike missions against hardened targets very deep inside Libyan territory. Strikes were conducted by a combination of French Navy Rafales and Armée de l’Air Rafales and Mirage 2000Ds. It is understood that the first target for the Scalps was a heavily-defended high-value target deep inside Libya, where a strike with close range weapons would have proved unnecessarily dangerous.
The Rafale’s sensor and armament suite has proved extremely effective and remarkably flexible, explains the Commanding Officer of French Navy Flottille 12F. I will take one example: the Rafale’s weapon system has not been specifically designed for the DEAD role, the Destruction of Enemy Air Defences. With all our sensors - the radar high-resolution mode, the Spectra suite and the Damoclès and Front Sector Optronics systems - we were, however, fully capable of detecting, localising and engaging enemy surface-to-air missile sites and we destroyed SA-3 and SA-6 SAM systems with our AASMs, including some mobile, time sensitive systems. This was a significant achievement. I would like to insist on the fact that Flottille 12F is one of the very few units in the world which can carry out such a large array of missions from a carrier deck, from reconnaissance to nuclear deterrence, from DEAD to anti-ship attacks, from close air support to air-defence.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Perhaps the rafale scalp combo would work better than an MKI against a heavily defended land based target although the Russians seem to have it's measure for now.
Cain-ji, this particular exercise was against a land based target. See below...

Rafales carry out long-range 6-hour strike mission in IOR
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 659827.cms
01 June 2023
The four Rafales took off from the Hasimara air base in northern West Bengal, "fought their way through a large enemy force package" along the coastline and then headed for their "weapons release point" at a target in north Andaman, an IAF officer said on Wednesday.
Cain Marko wrote:Think about it....vs movable ads like s400 and Chinese equivalents, will the scalp make it in time? Will the rafale truly escape detection? It's not a vlo platform after all. If the scalp fails, it has nothing but short range hammer.
Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-f ... t-veteran/
11 Nov 2019
Q. Do you feel confident flying against modern air defences in a non-stealthy aircraft?
A. “Great question. I’m not sure an aircraft’s stealthiness is going to make much difference anyway against very modern stuff. We’re not afraid of low level penetrations in the french air force. So come and get me with your S-400 if I’m at 200 feet above the ground — that’s not going to happen anytime soon. So I’m not afraid. It’s something we’re trained in and so it’s part of the job. And if you want a lot munitions or stores you’re going to lose on your stealthy signature anyway. So it’s not something of much concern – that’s why we train to keep current at very low level penetration. Which is really good as we get to fly at low level – which is awesome. I can’t complain.”
This is why a VLO (like F-35) is best suited. But in the absence of such, the next best available option is the Rafale. To reiterate, this particular exercise was against a land based target. The Rambha - in her present configuration - will light up (like the National Christmas Tree in Washington DC) on any radar. Her RCS is huge, compared to the Rafale F3R(I). Post Super Sukhoi upgrade, some reduced RCS might occur...but highly doubtful if she will reach the Rafale's RCS levels. But I will stand corrected, if I am proven incorrect.

For a mission planner/commander, survivability is important as is payload delivery. You can do the same with the Su-30MKI, but what will the attrition rate be? If the same result can be achieved, with a much reduced attrition rate...then obviously that is the better route to take. Thus the reason for the Rafale F3R(I).
Cain Marko wrote:Against targets at sea, the rafale simply cannot do this....
Four Micas (two Mica IR and two Mica EM), a pair of drop tanks and one AM-39 Exocet is the load out (in the anti-ship missile role) that the French Navy still uses today on the Rafale M, when operating from the Charles De Gaulle. See the pictures in these links;

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/15 ... 27138?s=20

https://twitter.com/JamesBondMI6GB/stat ... 88741?s=20

Indian Navy Rafale Ms - assuming that is the MRCBF winner - will use that same load out when operating off INS Vikrant. It is a load out, the French Navy is confident that she can deliver, because obviously that Rafale M will not be flying solo. However, the CDG has a huge advantage (via the E-2C) over the Vikrant. That is a gaping hole that the Vikrant CBG needs to fix, regardless of the chosen MRCBF. The proposed BrahMos-NG will eventually take over from the AM-39 Exocet, on the Rafale M and the upcoming TEDBF.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by konaseema »

Rakesh wrote:
konaseema wrote:Does Rafale carry any ARM now? Did we buy any such weapon? If yes, what is this missile?
See this...

Rafale Combat Success
http://omnirole-rafale.com/wp-content/u ... x-3-15.pdf
Thanks for your response Rakesh Ji. So essentially Rafale can do SEAD but not DEAD. It can defend itself well when SAM's are fired at Rafale's but it lacks dedicated ARM's in its weapon's suite. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

konaseema wrote:Thanks for your response Rakesh Ji. So essentially Rafale can do SEAD but not DEAD. It can defend itself well when SAM's are fired at Rafale's but it lacks dedicated ARM's in its weapon's suite. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks!
No ji please.

Unless I am reading your post incorrectly, the Rafale can successfully execute a DEAD mission. It does indeed lack a dedicated ARM, but that has not stopped the Rafale from undertaking such missions. The CO of Flottille 12F has not specified the type of AASMs used by the Rafale in this role, but if one had to venture a guess, it would be the HAMMER (Highly Agile Modular Munition Extended Range). There were media reports of our indigenous Tejas fighter also being retrofitted with the Hammer (https://tinyurl.com/2vk9w3yj), but I am not sure what came out of it.

See this link for more info on the Hammer ---> https://omnirole-rafale.com/armement/air-sol/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

konaseema wrote:Thanks for your response Rakesh Ji. So essentially Rafale can do SEAD but not DEAD. It can defend itself well when SAM's are fired at Rafale's but it lacks dedicated ARM's in its weapon's suite. Is that a correct assumption? Thanks!
Some more info...

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Dassault-Rafale-do-SEAD?
Q. How does Dassault Rafale do SEAD?

A. It looks like the Rafale lacks an anti-radiation missile (ARM) and if you really wanted to get technical, as such it can’t perform SEAD only DEAD (destruction of enemy air defenses). SEAD is the suppression of enemy air defenses, so if no one turns on their radar and you land back at base with a full load of arms, the mission would be successful since the enemy air defenses were suppressed.

In a DEAD mission, you are assigned a SAM battery to attack, and your mission is to destroy it. ideally, this would be done with standoff missiles like the Storm Shadow. The Rafale from my understanding has an impressive tactical electronic warfare suite, so I would assume like the F-35 that if a radar paints it a cruise missile will be on the way.
Dassault’s SPECTRA system is known to be able to triangulate the position of any enemy fighter that lights up its radar, and to immediately offer a kill solution to the pilot by automatically choosing the best weapon. It is possible that this capability is also put to use to hit land targets such as battery radars.

However, as the Rafale still lacks a dedicated SEAD version despite many voices asking for one over the years, and as France has not produced an anti-radiation missile for decades, the SEAD mission for now relies on the use of the SCALP cruise missile. This means the Rafale needs to be fed with data from other systems, such as a dedicated pod (carried either by the firing aircraft or by an accompanying aircraft) or such as satellites, as to the position of the enemy air defense batteries to target.
Info on SPECTRA from the Thales' website ---> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/spectra- ... aids-suite

Good info on this Facebook post about the Rafale's weapon loads ---> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set ... 148&type=3
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The upcoming F5 variant of the Rafale (due in 2030) is coming with a dedicated anti-radiation missile. These block upgrades are vital for the Rafale, as the SCAF program is severely delayed. What was due to arrive in 2036, now has an IOC induction date sometime in the 2050s! The only fallback option for France is now regular and consistent upgrades of the Rafale. F4 is the latest standard (and is still in developmental stage) and much of the India Specific Enhancements (ISE) upgrades that India paid for in the 36 Rafale contract, have shown up in the Rafale F4 standard.

Once again, India (inadvertently) funds the development of foreign military platforms. But 50 additional Tejas Mk1As have to go through a myriad of bureaucratic hurdles. Such is the situation! Latest post on Tejas Mk1A ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7879&start=440#p2591419

French Rafale F5 coming with emphasis on EW and SEAD in 2030
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/06/0 ... d-in-2030/
05 June 2023
Another innovation will be the F5’s ability to engage by suppressing and destroying enemy air defenses. This is known as SEAD – Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses. This will be done by developing a new anti-radar [anti-radiation] missile. There is still no concrete information about the stage of development of the anti-radiation missile. It seems that the impact of this type of missile has been underestimated by the French Air Force [FAF]. Years ago, French fighters, most notably the Mirage F.1 and Mirage 2000 series were armed with the ARMAT. This missile had a range of 120 km, and its warhead consisted of a proximity fuse and delayed impact. ARMAT was developed based on the Anglo-French MARTEL missile. France never decided to integrate the ARMAAT missile into the Dassault Rafale.
A much required read from the company (Northrop Grumman) that gave birth to and revolutionized SEAD/DEAD operations --> https://www.northropgrumman.com/what-we ... sead-dead/

While not well known like Lockheed Martin or Boeing, Northrop is at the forefront of cutting edge military aviation. They are the prime contractor in the NGAD (Next Generation Air Dominance) program and the recently released B-21 Raider (the next generation stealth bomber for the USAF). For military aviation enthusiasts, when Northrop speaks....people listen.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

:D

https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/ ... 89955?s=20 ---> Another Sr. Colonel from China asked if US & France had disputes in the Indian Ocean.

French Navy Chief: "I wouldn’t use disputes, but more discussions."

USN Admiral Aquilino: "We have a giant dispute with the French. And the dispute is who’s airplane is better, the F/A-18 or the Rafale."

===================================

Admiral John Christopher Aquilino is Commander of the United States Indo-Pacific Command (USINDOPACOM).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

French Rafale F5 coming with emphasis on EW and SEAD in 2030
Ukraine war has blown to bits many age old assumptions and concepts of SEAD. There will be a serious rethink of what 5th gen and 6 gen fighter capabilities need to be.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Paul »

Per YT Defenceupdates Rafale-M deal will be finalized during Modi's visit but will be signed after 2024 elections.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:The upcoming F5 variant of the Rafale (due in 2030) is coming with a dedicated anti-radiation missile. These block upgrades are vital for the Rafale, as the SCAF program is severely delayed. What was due to arrive in 2036, now has an IOC induction date sometime in the 2050s! The only fallback option for France is now regular and consistent upgrades of the Rafale. F4 is the latest standard (and is still in developmental stage) and much of the India Specific Enhancements (ISE) upgrades that India paid for in the 36 Rafale contract, have shown up in the Rafale F4 standard.
https://twitter.com/BPartisans/status/1 ... 88704?s=20 ---> France is working on an aircraft with an electronic warfare system. The French company Dassault Aviation is working hard on the creation of the latest French fighter Rafale F5. It should enter service in 2030 when the first deliveries are planned. F5 will focus on electronic warfare. Recent events in Ukraine have shown the world and France that electronic countermeasures will play a key role in future conflicts. It's not yet clear what the system will be for the F5, but sources say it will not only counter weapons platforms, but also conduct electronic attacks.

More Info on the upcoming Rafale F5 variant ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&start=2560#p2591989
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by RaviB »

Just came across this snippet in The Economist on France's military plans:
[French] Parliament is currently examining a military budget for 2024-2030 worth €413bn ($446bn), a hefty 40% increase in nominal terms on the budget for 2019-2025. Under Mr Macron, this should enable France to meet its nato commitment to spend 2% of gdp on defence. The new budget is clearly shaped by the war on Ukraine, which is mentioned 14 times in the relevant bill. France will modernise its nuclear deterrent, build a new-generation nuclear-powered aircraft-carrier and add 109 Caesar howitzers, 3,000 drones and more.

Paradoxically, however, France has scaled back the acquisition of some extra kit. The air force will get 48 fewer new Rafale fighter jets than previously planned, and 15 fewer a400m transport aircraft; the army will get 497 fewer Griffon and Jaguar armoured vehicles.
Since the French will scale down their Rafale orders, this would free up some capacity. Does this create the chance for a G-to-G deal for more Rafale which can be received earlier than previously thought based on their order book?

Full article here https://archive.is/ZpMd1#selection-959.71-975.87
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

RaviB wrote:Since the French will scale down their Rafale orders, this would free up some capacity. Does this create the chance for a G-to-G deal for more Rafale which can be received earlier than previously thought based on their order book?

Full article here https://archive.is/ZpMd1#selection-959.71-975.87
With the IAF insisting on the MRFA contract, the only workable solution for the Indian Govt is to open an assembly line for the Rafale in India, if the Rafale is chosen as the MRFA. This will be expensive...but in the long run it is the most cost effective solution, when compared to all the other MRFA contenders. See below;

1. The IAF does not need 114 Rafales, they will require only 90 airframes. The 114 number will apply only if another type is chosen, due to a different maintenance schedule. This was stated by Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar (retd) in an interview to Shiv Aroor. Add the 26 Rafale M (of the Indian Navy...assuming the M variant has won the MRCBF contest) order to the assembly line and you get 116 aircraft in total. Dassault requires a minimum of 100 airframes to transfer the assembly line and this order will check off that box.

2. An assembly line in India will serve not just the IAF, but could potentially serve existing customers awaiting delivery (i.e. Indonesia and UAE). This will greatly help Dassault, as it will ease the pressure off the line at Merignac, France. The line could also serve as a MROU facility for all the Rafale customers in the region (Qatar, UAE, Indonesia and India).

3. With the money already invested in the 36 aircraft Rafale deal, it is pointless to invest even more funds in another fourth generation aircraft. Other than burning money, purchasing any other phoren fourth generation aircraft is meaningless. More of the same must be the mantra, both for local and phoren aircraft. So more Rafale, more Tejas, etc. 90 Rafales + 36 already in service = 126 aircraft. This is the number of MMRCA 1.0 and thus the Air Marshal's numbers are spot on. Seven squadrons (126 airframes) of Mirage 2000s is what Air HQ originally wanted in 2001.

4. Any Rafale line in India will take time to start deliveries and likely the first 18 will come directly from France in fly away condition. With numbers rapidly depleting (i.e. one MiG-21 Bison squadron will retire each year till 2025), additional Tejas Mk1As will have to be ordered. But Air HQ is waiting for the MRFA contract to conclude, because diverting funds for anything else will starve the MRFA contract of funds. But Heaven only knows when the MRFA contest will be over. I am hoping NaMo closes the door on this 2+ decade saga as soon as possible, with a G2G deal that will benefit all parties (France, India and the IAF/IN). Once MRFA is concluded, then the IAF's focus can shift towards additional Mk1As, the Mk2, AMCA, ORCA (?), etc.

5. With FCAS (France's sixth generation aircraft program) severely delayed, the only fallback option is to keep the Rafale up-to-date. With an estimated IOC entry date in the 2050s, the Rafale will have to be regularly upgraded to stay relevant till FCAS arrives. That is already happening with the now-flight testing Rafale F4 variant and with confirmed international orders from UAE and Indonesia for the F4 variant. F4.1 is what is being tested now and F4.2 will follow in 2027. Dassault is already on the drawing board for the F5 variant and there are talks of F6 as well. The Rafale upgrades - borne out of sheer necessity - have a bright future.

6. Fourth generation aircraft will continue to stay relevant, as fifth and sixth generation programs are not cheap to purchase, operate or maintain. Even the USAF is upgrading old fourth generation airframes (F-16 fleet to Block 70 standard) and acquiring new fourth generation airframes (F-15EX). In future conflicts they will play a vital role and will be escorted by the F-22, F-35 and NGAD into battle. Even the PLAAF will adopt the same strategy, with the J-20 being the spearhead and supported by J-10s, J-11s, J-16s, Su-30MKKs, etc. In the IAF, Rafale will be that spearhead. It will hold that mantle till AMCA arrives.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:4. Any Rafale line in India will take time to start deliveries and likely the first 18 will come directly from France in fly away condition. With numbers rapidly depleting (i.e. one MiG-21 Bison squadron will retire each year till 2025), additional Tejas Mk1As will have to be ordered. But Air HQ is waiting for the MRFA contract to conclude, because diverting funds for anything else will starve the MRFA contract of funds. But Heaven only knows when the MRFA contest will be over. I am hoping NaMo closes the door on this 2+ decade saga as soon as possible, with a G2G deal that will benefit all parties (France, India and the IAF/IN). Once MRFA is concluded, then the IAF's focus can shift towards additional Mk1As, the Mk2, AMCA, ORCA (?), etc.
I don't see why GOI is so reluctant to sign off... And wait for elections. They should've done this soon after 2nd term was won.

They can arrange for security forces (the IAF in particular) to create a ruckus over the emergency need for fighters. And after the purchase, have them experience gratitude on major media outlets at every given opportunity. Have journos write articles supporting the decision.
If the services support the GOI vocally, public will vote for you. Indian public has HUGE respect for it's armed forces, and anything to help them, even if it means eating fewer rotis (which they won't have to), will be supported.

This delay is bloody negligent.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by konaseema »

A YouTube channel carried the news that the Eurofighter Typhoon will be offered at a 35% discount. I think if Dassault doesn't reduce the price, Typhoon might come out as the L1 if these 2 are shortlisted again. Any thoughts? How about combining this and the RR deal to joint manufacture 110-120kN jet engine?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Typhoon is a dead end, it's not vegetable, here, all the infra for Rafale is aldready there along with training and weapons integration. A new type new engine, new spare parts, new training infrastructure, IAF forming new tactics, new simulator, Intergrating India specific weapons and software- no thank you.

These items will take quite a few billion dollars plus 6-7 years to develop.

I feel we need to develop our own engine, the French or British will just fool us. We need to invest in test beds, get Kaveri production running for UAV,Marine engines. That is where our engine will come from.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Roop »

konaseema wrote:... Typhoon might come out as the L1 if these 2 are shortlisted again. Any thoughts?
Here are my thoughts: Any decision to buy Eurofighter at this stage would mark GoI and IAF as a bloody clown show. There is not a single advantage to GoI / IAF from buying this aircraft (or Gripen, or any Russian aircraft). At least the purchase of an American aircraft (something I oppose anyway, at this stage) would give some kind of diplomatic / political gain. With those other aircraft there would be nothing of the kind. AFAIC, it should be Rafale or nothing.

BTW, regardless of what I recommend, I am not yet convinced that Rafale for the Navy is a done deal. I would not be shocked if Super Hornet was selected for the IN. Surprised, sure, but not shocked.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

konaseema wrote:A YouTube channel carried the news that the Eurofighter Typhoon will be offered at a 35% discount.
The Indian procurement circus will always have wildcards such as this.

What the MOD needs to do is to end this circus and conduct a deal with the French for additional 36 Rafale. Follow that up with additional Mk1A orders. Till the MWF is not certified.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Tanaji »

IDRW is claiming Rafale marine is a done deal

https://idrw.org/india-set-to-acquire-2 ... llar-deal/

But then this is IDRW…
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

AFAIK, this is a first! Personnel contingents have marched before at international military parades, but this time IAF Rafales will be participating in the Bastille Day Parade in France. See image below. The IAF contingent is the second one from top.

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 88096?s=20 ---> Confirmation that @IAF_MCC Rafales will participate alongside @Armee_de_lair, @RoyalAirForce and @BeAirForce aircraft for the Bastille Day flypast over Paris next month.

Image
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

So France has no issues flying single engine Mirage 2000-5s and F16s over extremely dense Paris region but we do to fly LCAs over Delhi for republic day?!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

more birds vs less birds; risk of more bird strike than less bird strike; 2 engines more survivable than 1. Delhi as or more dense than Paris?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

It was my assumption that our single engined Tejas has not flown over Rajpath on Republic Day.

Then I came across this video (dated 2017)....

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Jay »

fanne wrote:more birds vs less birds; risk of more bird strike than less bird strike; 2 engines more survivable than 1. Delhi as or more dense than Paris?
Or we are still subscribed to the ossified thinking coupled with undermining our own stuff. On what basis are we saying Paris, a city with multiple parks and pollution a order of magnitude less than Delhi has less birds than Delhi/NCR?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Jay wrote:Or we are still subscribed to the ossified thinking coupled with undermining our own stuff. On what basis are we saying Paris, a city with multiple parks and pollution a order of magnitude less than Delhi has less birds than Delhi/NCR?
Delhi/NCR has a large concentration of birds due to multiple slaughterhouses in and around the city.

The issue lies with how these slaughterhouses dispose their offal (the entrails and internal organs of an animal). If they are just discarding it or temporarily storing it in an open pit or ground, it will attract large birds like vultures. I am not an ornithologist (a person who studies birds) by any stretch of the imagination, so I am unsure of the exact species that live in the Delhi/NCR area. But it is safe to say that these slaughterhouses do attract large birds. Paris is obviously not spotlessly clean, but I doubt they share a similar magnitude of the problem that Delhi/NCR has.

Another problem in Delhi/NCR area (which Paris does not have) is large, open air, garbage dumps. Ghazipur is infamous and so are Bhalswa and Okhla. Those garbage dumps are 100% bird magnets which visit them to scavenge. Reportedly the Delhi Govt is working to address this problem, but I am unsure how far they have progressed in this area. Arvind Kejriwal is the CM, so I don't have great expectations.

Delhi/NCR has a sanitation problem, which is a safety hazard for air traffic. Get rid of the slaughterhouses & garbage dumps and the risk will reduce. Easier said than done, but that is the solution.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 01377?s=20 ---> Premier Explosives won a ₹552.26 crore order from the Indian Ministry of Defence (IAF) for Flares and Chaffs for Rafale Fighter Jets.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Oh the timing of this announcement! :)

Dassault Aviation’s Rafale joint venture with Anil Ambani likely to be dissolved
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 94310.html
13 July 2023
Sources said Dassault has taken the decision due to Ambani’s “inability to make the investment required to keep the joint venture going.”
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by arvin »

^^^
Younger Ambani's streak of turning to dust anything he touches continues.....
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Dassault Aviation ‘seeks to buy out Reliance stake’ in defence facility, set up 100% venture in India
https://theprint.in/defence/dassault-av ... a/1672150/
17 July 2023
According to sources, Dassault Aviation will also like to set up a manufacturing facility for Rafale in India if it bags the contract to build 114 fighters for the Indian Air Force.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote: 29 Jun 2023 09:03
Jay wrote:Or we are still subscribed to the ossified thinking coupled with undermining our own stuff. On what basis are we saying Paris, a city with multiple parks and pollution a order of magnitude less than Delhi has less birds than Delhi/NCR?
Delhi/NCR has a sanitation problem, which is a safety hazard for air traffic. Get rid of the slaughterhouses & garbage dumps and the risk will reduce. Easier said than done, but that is the solution.
Can you guess the communal - political implications of removing the slaughter houses ?
The same reason why that IAF stopped using Hindon as a fighter base. Heavy bird strikes due to politically unremovable slaughter houses
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/168 ... 71584?s=20 ---> Many of you were asking if BrahMos can be fitted to a Rafale?

The BrahMos CEO on BrahMos NG stated, "The big advantage is that once we are able to put the BrahMos on the LCA, we will be able to put it on any western platform."

So you get, not confirmation, but a hint.

Image
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

oh wow! what a pic !
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Desi and Firang brothers. Can't help but see the features inherited from papa Mirage :mrgreen:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

MoU was signed between BDL and MBDA on 20 Oct 2022 ---> viewtopic.php?p=2567609#p2567609

India to integrate indigenous weapons on Rafale fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2023-07-23
23 July 2023
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

How the sky became the limit for France’s Rafale jet
https://www.ft.com/content/28753610-444 ... df7d6c83ee
23 July 2024
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by RoyG »

Rakesh wrote: 24 Jul 2023 19:52 How the sky became the limit for France’s Rafale jet
https://www.ft.com/content/28753610-444 ... df7d6c83ee
23 July 2024
Hopefully should be our last major fighter aircraft order. LCA, TEDBF, and AMCA moving forward. Actually a big development and even bigger sigh of relief 😅
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