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VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Vivek K » 27 Feb 2017 06:12

Austin wrote:I see no harm in ordering 200 Rafale , Most to be Made At HAL under Make In India Category similar to MKI program where we can get TOT and Build it with Indian sourced materials and get to manufac Snecma at HAL. End to End Comprehensive deal for Rafale like MKI so that we can maintain and upgrade on our own.

Build another 57 for Naval requirement for New Fighter Program.

Its a wonderful fighter and speaking to pilots at AI they vouch by its capabilities , It would also streamline our logistic for IAF in the next 20-30 years reducing the number of types and weapons employed rather than have a zoo of dozen types in double digits which will make it expensive to maintain in long term. Order more Tejas , Rafale and MKI all built in India and get done with it.

Care to present the budget for capex and for the tejas and so on. Don't throw in the tejas to cover your main intent. The Rafale deal will go down in history as one of the worst decisions ranking along with the T-90 purchase. It has the capability to bankrupt India if bought in the numbers suggested. And try to add the Astra on it or maybe a locally produced tyre and you will need to sell the Andamans to pay for it. Or perhaps we could give Kashmir to the Chinese as collateral for a loan to cover the MLU.

India is where she is (economically/militarily) for a reason!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 06:50

Cosmo_R wrote:+1. Of course, there are those 9 Qatari M2Ks that can fill the gap....:)

GoI/MoD will dilli/dally. It's what they do. The F16 line will close down and then all of a sudden we'll see them as a great deal but the resurrection will cost 3x so we'll look for used F16s after having spent a few years trying to negotiate ToT with LM on the F35, buy 36 off the shelf to avoid embarrassment.

The dilli dalliers did this with M2K, discovered a sudden desire for more C17s after the line closed and are now hunting down spare USAF capability.

As someone said, "when you don't know where you want to go, any road will get you there."

so buying used F-16s in a few years is ok, but buying used M2Ks now is not? :) Secondly, why buy them off the shelf when the whole point of the purchase is Make in India? I thought it was all about parts no? :) I am still waiting for the answers to the questions I asked you about the F-16 purchase in the single engine thread. Questions to which you do not have a single answer to. Other than posting a video about too many notes :), you have given up I see.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 07:00

Austin wrote:I see no harm in ordering 200 Rafale , Most to be Made At HAL under Make In India Category similar to MKI program where we can get TOT and Build it with Indian sourced materials and get to manufac Snecma at HAL. End to End Comprehensive deal for Rafale like MKI so that we can maintain and upgrade on our own.

Build another 57 for Naval requirement for New Fighter Program.

Its a wonderful fighter and speaking to pilots at AI they vouch by its capabilities , It would also streamline our logistic for IAF in the next 20-30 years reducing the number of types and weapons employed rather than have a zoo of dozen types in double digits which will make it expensive to maintain in long term. Order more Tejas , Rafale and MKI all built in India and get done with it.

You are not going to get 200 Rafales. Assuming that 200 includes the 57 navy fighters, where is the Govt expected to cough up the cash for the other 143? Assuming you minus the already ordered 36 from that 143, from where is the money going to come from for 107 Rafales? At the most, another 36 Rafales will come. That much is a likely possibility.

Secondly, Dassault has made it quite clear to the GoI - and rightfully so - that they cannot guarentee the quality of the Rafale if they are assembled by HAL. Any future Rafales will either come directly from France or by Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The IAF loves to operate a zoo of many types and will continue to do so in the years to come.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Nick_S » 27 Feb 2017 07:03

ashishvikas wrote:^^ Rafale will (IF) be m̶a̶n̶u̶f̶a̶c̶t̶u̶r̶e̶d̶ assembled from kits by Reliance not HAL.


Corrected.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2017 07:03

Cosmo_R wrote:
+1. Of course, there are those 9 Qatari M2Ks that can fill the gap....:)

...


The IAF would probably need to pick up more than those 9 Qatari Mirage-2000s if it wants to keep its 3 upgraded 51 Mirage-2000 squadrons at full strength for the next 15-years until retirement. There will be longer serviceability periods (old planes), attritions and cannibalization of airframes for spares during those years and so additional reserves are mandatory.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2017 07:19

nits wrote:But why to order so late; order now so that delivery can start early...

As part of the offset for the first 36 Rafael deal, India secured help for its Kaveri engine. French companies need to show their commitment and progress before being rewarded with follow-on orders.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 07:28

srai: IF the Tejas flies with the Kaveri turbofan at Aero India 2019, as promised by Commodore C D Balaji, Snecma-Safran will have delivered and that too BIG TIME. If that happens, two things will likely be proven;

1) It will prove how close (mature in design...is that the right term?) the Kaveri was, if it took Snecma-Safran just two years to get the Kaveri to design specifications. Remember, it is an unworkable engine (for the Tejas) right now. As a corrollation, GTRE will know where to focus money, manpower, etc to develop those key components inhouse. Snecma-Safran is not going to open the family jewel chest for anyone. Neither will General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, etc.

2) With the Kaveri running, it will make the single engine fighter purchase completely pointless. If that occurs, a lot of rhona-dhona will occur on BRF.

Very interesting times ahead for the Tejas. Lots of goals to meet and they are achievable, if the import mafia can be kept at bay.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 27 Feb 2017 07:31

If they can isolate the radar by April and if Thales wins that contract, then the radar system will be delinked from future purchases.
If they test the GTRE-Safran engine on Rafale, they could price the rafale very differently without the need to add those engines to the price and the 5 year cost of supporting them as well.

It might look a whole lot doable then.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 08:55

Land problems in UP, so IAF looks at other bases to station Rafale fighters
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... s-4545492/

Sources said the IAF needed an additional 540 acres of land in the vicinity of the air force station, which would have meant protracted negotiations with nearly 3,200 land owners.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 27 Feb 2017 11:28

Rakesh wrote:
Austin wrote:I see no harm in ordering 200 Rafale , Most to be Made At HAL under Make In India Category similar to MKI program where we can get TOT and Build it with Indian sourced materials and get to manufac Snecma at HAL. End to End Comprehensive deal for Rafale like MKI so that we can maintain and upgrade on our own.

Build another 57 for Naval requirement for New Fighter Program.

Its a wonderful fighter and speaking to pilots at AI they vouch by its capabilities , It would also streamline our logistic for IAF in the next 20-30 years reducing the number of types and weapons employed rather than have a zoo of dozen types in double digits which will make it expensive to maintain in long term. Order more Tejas , Rafale and MKI all built in India and get done with it.

You are not going to get 200 Rafales. Assuming that 200 includes the 57 navy fighters, where is the Govt expected to cough up the cash for the other 143? Assuming you minus the already ordered 36 from that 143, from where is the money going to come from for 107 Rafales? At the most, another 36 Rafales will come. That much is a likely possibility.

Secondly, Dassault has made it quite clear to the GoI - and rightfully so - that they cannot guarentee the quality of the Rafale if they are assembled by HAL. Any future Rafales will either come directly from France or by Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL). The IAF loves to operate a zoo of many types and will continue to do so in the years to come.


The right question to ask is what is the cost IAF has to pay for not buy additional Rafale and streamlining the logistics.

If you consider the life cycle of Rafale in IAF for 40 years then building an infrastructure for Rafale like we did for MKI in India along with manufacturing it at HAL or Reliance or who ever will work out to be cheaper including capex cost.

Now if we limit our self to 36 and say we buy another 80 Twin Engine type for IAF then another 57 of another type for the navy ,you end up with 3 different types with the logistics , operating cost , infra , weapons and xxx things that you need to maintain it for 40 years will end up being exponontial higher.

Remember the mistake we did when we opted for 40 M2K in 80's and then when the French offered M2K lic built for the type at HAL we pondered and then jumped to Mig-29 and we thought we will build Mig-29 in India , we ended up doing neither as post 91 economic crisis and break up SU meant it was dead deal.

Today we are opting for MMRCA for the same reason why we did not manufacture M2K in mid-80's like we did for Jags in Mid 70's and you see HAL is still building Jags in various Darin configuration.

Even IG was questioned then why were we procuring expensive M2K spending precious forex ( at that time India had forex of just $2 billion ) and her answer was interesting which I think you would know.

Coming back to the point lets bite the bullet and build 150 or 200 Rafale including for the Navy and lets streamline the logistic like we did for MKI i.e logistics chain and infra for Rafale that can take care of MRO/Upgrade for the fleet for next 40 years down the line when we are discussing this topic we wont be regretting for not doing so. These things looks expensive intitially but if you do a 40 years life cycle cost for Rafale in IAF it would be worth every penny we put into it rather than operating 3 types in IAF and IN

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 27 Feb 2017 17:17

^^^

The problem with the Mirage-2000 purchase in the 1980s and the Rafales in 2016 has been high costs. Just like in the 80s where India couldn't afford any more Mirages, same holds true for Rafales today, especially when lifecycle costs and ToT etc are considered (3-years of negotiation concluded that the price tag was prohibitive). Given that reality India should focus on what it can afford in numbers to make up the bulk of its fleet, i.e. LCA and Su-30MKI, and reserve high-priced Western fighters in limited quantities for that extra technological punch. Let go of that mindset on light-medium-heavy category for a bit and instead focus on what is available--LCA and MKI. Together, they fulfill the Indian requirements (MKI - air superiority and strategic reach; LCA - frontline tactical offense and defense), and both are in production in India. Induct these in large quantities. Upgrade them incrementally and continuously.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 22:21

Austin: In addition to what srai said, let me state again that additional Rafales (in the numbers you talk about) will not happen. At the most, another squadron or two more (18 - 36 aircraft) may likely happen. Buying the same type (57) for the navy is a more likely scenario and makes Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) relevant and viable. But there is no way India can afford 200 more Rafales. Makes better sense to pump that money into boosting Tejas production and upgrading the Rambha. This single engine fighter purchase will likely share the same fate as 200 Rafales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 27 Feb 2017 22:27

Rakesh wrote:Austin: In addition to what srai said, let me state again that additional Rafales (in the numbers you talk about) will not happen. At the most, another squadron or two more (18 - 36 aircraft) may likely happen. Buying the same type (57) for the navy is a more likely scenario and makes Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) relevant and viable. But there is no way India can afford 200 more Rafales. Makes better sense to pump that money into boosting Tejas production and upgrading the Rambha. This single engine fighter purchase will likely share the same fate as 200 Rafales.


We can afford around ~ 150 Rafale if we include the Naval orders about 5 squadron for IAF and 57 for IN.

That would be a workable deal for building infra , tot etc like MKI deal , The Dassault chief might say he need ideally 200 number much like MOD would says 80 is ideal number for TOT , its about negotiations , Remember it took 4 years for Rafale deal to be signed after n numbers of yes/no and what not we were fed in these 4 years and MOD Parrikar stating every Dollar counts.

With 38 Rafale deal already signed MOD has a good base to negotiate further numbers if it has long term vision and does not wish to repeat M2K fiasco , Like they says those who do not learn from history ........

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 23:28

Austin: Ok's let go with the 150 number. The only known variable is 36 aircraft. Minus the 36 from 150 and you still have 114 aircraft. Take another 57 off that 114 for the Indian Navy (assuming that is the type that the IN buys), you are still left with 57 more to make up the 150. Is the GoI willing to bite the bullet and buy 3+ additional squadrons of the Rafale for the IAF?

I don't see where the money is going to come from considering there is Tejas production, Mk.2 development, AMCA development, FGFA development, purchasing tankers, AEWs, AWACS, etc, etc, etc. Budgets are finite. May be you see it, I honestly do not.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 27 Feb 2017 23:41

Rakesh wrote:Austin: Ok's let go with the 150 number. The only known variable is 36 aircraft. Minus the 36 from 150 and you still have 114 aircraft. Take another 57 off that 114 for the Indian Navy (assuming that is the type that the IN buys), you are still left with 57 more to make up the 150. Is the GoI willing to bite the bullet and buy 3+ additional squadrons of the Rafale for the IAF?

I don't see where the money is going to come from considering there is Tejas production, Mk.2 development, AMCA development, FGFA development, purchasing tankers, AEWs, AWACS, etc, etc, etc. Budgets are finite. May be you see it, I honestly do not.


The money will come from the same place where Parrikar says he needs Single Engine Fighter and Raha mentioned about 200 medium weight fighter besides 36 Rafale http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 48806.html

If that happens and not sure how they will get money for both of these imported/make in india fighter , stream lining logistic by procuring what we have makes it good for IAF/IN in long run.

We can disagree here and cut the topic but I believe we need to look at 30-40 years of cycle for fighter purchase and not stop gap approach like we had in 70/80 and opt for more holistic deal like we did for MKI rather than buy in bits and pieces and make IAF look like 70/80 AF where we operated more than half a dozen type in small and big numbers.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Feb 2017 23:54

Austin: But the GoI is insistent on single engine fighters. It is all about light-medium-heavy fighters :) I meant that rhetorically. Don't answer.

If the single engine fighter purchase is cancelled, then your scenario above is plausible. Good job Austin!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby John » 27 Feb 2017 23:59

IN doesn't have budget to spend more 2 to 3 billion for new Fighter AC procurement. Knowing Dassault they will charge that much money just to certify the AC for ski jump operations. Fyi only Boeing was willing to do that for free with Super hornet.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2017 00:47

India's Rafale fighter jets will come equipped with the world's best targeting pods
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250704

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Feb 2017 08:44

Austin saar the frogs are hell bent on not giving us any tech. This is statement from there parliament. No not even if we buy 200+57 as suggested by you.

Viv S wrote:So 50% of the contract value was to be reverted in the form of offsets. 20% workshare + 30% ToT.

How productive is this ToT infusion supposed to be? (Keep in the mind, its composition is still being negotiated.)

_________________________________________


An interesting snippet from the proceedings of the French Parliament (Assemblée nationale)


[Laurent Collet-Billon, head of the French defense procurement office, Direction Générale de l'Armement (DGA).

Gilbert Le Bris, MP, Socialist Party

Yves Fromion, MP, Republican Party]


Commission de la défense nationale et des forces armées

Mercredi 12 octobre 2016
Séance de 16 heures 30
Compte rendu n° 8

Présidence de Mme Patricia Adam, présidente

Q) M. Gilbert Le Bris: Monsieur le délégué général, en tant qu’ingénieur de l’armement et chef de la DGA depuis près de neuf ans, vous êtes le mieux placé pour répondre à ma question sur le transfert de technologies ou de services lié à des ventes à l’étranger. Nous avons subi une déconvenue avec la Pologne au sujet des hélicoptères Caracal et les négociations sur les Rafale ont été très difficiles en Inde, si bien que je me demande si les industriels ne sous-estiment pas les capacités d’innovation de certains pays lorsqu’ils affirment que notre avance technologique est suffisante pour leur proposer des transferts sans craindre de les aider à nous concurrencer.

Q) M. Yves Fromion: La négociation avec l’Inde s’était ouverte sur 126 Rafale. La commande des 36 appareils est-elle définitive ou peut-on espérer l’augmenter?


A) M. Laurent Collet-Billon: Sur les transferts de technologie, Monsieur Le Bris, nous faisons extrêmement attention. Dans les derniers contrats Rafale, par exemple, il n’y a pas de transfert de technologie du tout. Ce qui était prévu dans le cadre des 126 Rafale, en Inde, n’a pas lieu sur les trente-six ; ce sont des offset qui regardent les industriels mais ne concernent pas des transferts de technologies propres au Rafale.

S’agissant de l’Inde, les trente-six Rafale sont une « tête de gondole ». Quand ils les auront essayés, ils les apprécieront. La facilité de mise en œuvre de l’avion est exceptionnelle, le nombre de personnes nécessaires pour la mise en œuvre est très réduit par rapport à ce que nous avons pu observer sur des avions américains ou russes. Les performances du radar sont extraordinaires. Ce lot de trente-six appareils a été conçu comme une réponse immédiate à un besoin réel des forces indiennes. L’acquisition de ces avions leur permet de constituer un noyau autour duquel les Indiens pourront construire une force aéronautique complémentaire moderne. Ils nous connaissent déjà car ils possèdent une flotte de Mirage 2000, en cours de modernisation, et qui fonctionne très bien. Je pense donc que nous irons assez largement au-delà des trente-six. Dans ce cas se posera peut-être de nouveau la question du transfert d’une chaîne d’intégration en Inde.


Commission of national defense and armed forces

Wednesday, October 12, 2016
Session 4:30 p.m.
Record No. 8

Ms Patricia Adam Presidency, President

Q) Mr. Gilbert Le Bris: Mr. Delegate General, as an engineer of the armament and Chief DGA for almost nine years, you are the best person to answer my question about the transfer of related technology or services to sales abroad. We have suffered a setback with Poland about Caracal helicopters and the Rafale negotiations were very difficult in India, so I wonder if the industry does not underestimate the innovative capabilities of certain countries when they claim that our technological lead is enough to propose transfers without fear of helping them to compete with us.

Q) Mr. Yves Fromion: Negotiations with India was open on 126 Rafale. The order of 36 aircraft it is definitive or can we hope to increase it?


A) Mr. Laurent Collet-Billon: On technology transfer, Mr. Le Bris, we are extremely careful. In the last contracts Rafale, for example, there is no technology transfer at all. What was planned as part of the 126 Rafale, India, does not take place on the thirty-six; these are industrial offsets but do not involve transfer of clean technologies of the Rafale.

Regarding India, the thirty-six Rafale is a "gondola". When they have tried them, they appreciate them. The implementation ease the airplane is outstanding, the number of people required for the implementation is very small compared to what we have seen on US or Russian aircraft. The radar's performance is extraordinary. This batch of thirty-six aircraft was designed as an immediate response to a real need of the Indian forces. The acquisition of these aircraft allows them to form a nucleus around which the Indians can build a modern aircraft complementary force. They already know us because they have a fleet of Mirage 2000 being upgraded, and that works fine. So I think we'll go pretty far beyond the thirty-six. In this case will arise perhaps again the issue of transfer of an integration chain in India.


French openly told aussies that techs for sub won't be given to brown indians.

And later told germans not to give tech to brown asians.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 28 Feb 2017 09:00

^^^

Yet, India thinks it can be a world power being depended on military hardware from old world "colonists"--it is in their interest to keep their technological lead while exporting their wares to fund next generation stuff. There are no shortcuts for India.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 28 Feb 2017 10:14

There are no shortcuts, but till a viable product is produced India has no other choice but to buy from abroad. The threats are real. If a war breaks out tomorrow, what will you fight with?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 28 Feb 2017 10:25

Manish_Sharma wrote:Austin saar the frogs are hell bent on not giving us any tech. This is statement from there parliament. No not even if we buy 200+57 as suggested by you.


Lets cut the political talk and negotiate with Dassault , obviously if there is no TOT to MOD expectations then the deal it off , Dassault chief says something , Parliament says something , what matters is what we negotiate with them and put it on paper ....Obviously they are helping us on Kaveri program as part of Rafale offsets. Knowing the french I am sure they will give us the technology to maintain Rafale if cost is Right

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 28 Feb 2017 10:48

Rakesh wrote:There are no shortcuts, but till a viable product is produced India has no other choice but to buy from abroad. The threats are real. If a war breaks out tomorrow, what will you fight with?


Agree :) ... it's all about finding the right balance. Solutions typically tend to be somewhere in the middle.

Something to ponder on ...

If war broke out between India-Pakistan-China, US, France and Russia would all have a field day and make some handsome profits. Indian Mirages duke it out with Pakistani Mirages. Chinese Flankers shoot it out with Indian Flankers. Pakistani F-16s dogfight with Indian MII F-16s using the same missiles. Indian, Chinese and Pakistani Mil helicopters take on each other's troops. Chinese S-400 defend against Indian MKIs while the Chinese Flankers do the same against Indian S-400 SAM systems. And so the list goes on! I wonder who the OEMs would favor, but in any case profits to be made all round on hiked up prices for war emergency purchases.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2017 09:59

One out of two Rafale is available

At the end of 2016, 51% of the 139 Rafale of the Air Force and Navy were available


http://www.lopinion.fr/blog/secret-defe ... ble-121455
Questioned by the deputy (LR, Haute-Marne) François Cornut-Gentille, the Ministry of Defense has just communicated the availabilities of air force and navy aircraft . Only Mirage 2000N and KC-135 refueling data are classified, as these aircraft depend on strategic air forces (nuclear deterrence).

As a result, on December 31, 2016, the Air Force had 98 Rafale "in service" and their availability rate was 49.3%.
For the Navy, 41 Rafale, with an availability of 56.6. That is a total of 71.5 devices available, according to our calculations. Remains to understand what exactly this 0.5 device ...
Let's not chipotons: half (51%) of the Rafale fleet was available at the end of 2016, which was roughly (49%) the case a year ago.

On the way, we learn that the air force always aligns 150 Mirage 2000, in five different versions (D, -5, C, N, B).

Not surprisingly , MP Francois Cornut-Gentille pointed to the "critical situation of the transport fleet" and the "black spot" of the availability of the Atlantic 2 on his blog .

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby uddu » 06 Mar 2017 10:25

This is the condition of the French Rafale, an aircraft which they manufacture. Now think of the situation when it reaches India and the issue of spares and parts. If we can keep 10 aircraft flying will be pretty good.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 06 Mar 2017 10:52

Uptime is a function of how much you want to spend on spares and support etc to keep certain % of of aircraft operational at any point of time , The more aircraft you want available the more OPEX you will have to spend on it.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 06 Mar 2017 15:54

Hence I've been saying (based on similar reports) for a few years that reliability is the metric to look at instead of pure availability. Readiness as always is to a large extent subject to funding.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 06 Mar 2017 17:57

uddu wrote:This is the condition of the French Rafale, an aircraft which they manufacture. Now think of the situation when it reaches India and the issue of spares and parts. If we can keep 10 aircraft flying will be pretty good.


AFAIK our contract demands 75% and above availability. Going by the M2K experience that should be easily achievable. But that's for first 5 or 10 yrs support. Later they either will have new contract with Dassault or its IAF's responsibility to keep the spared stocked properly.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2017 09:46

Once expanded, Tambaram Air Force Station runway can serve Chennai during natural calamities
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/once-expanded-tambaram-iaf-station-runway-can-serve-chennai-during-natural-calamities-air-chief-marshal-bs-dhanoa/articleshow/57450893.cms

FWIW...

Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa said Rafale fighter aircraft would be inducted into the IAF by 2019.

A total of 36 fighters would be added to the fleet in the first batch, he said.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 09 Mar 2017 21:44

Interesting! MoD gives Parliament details of bargaining that went
into India-France negotiations for 36 Rafale deal after M-MRCA collapse.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/839841514880630787

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby NRao » 13 Mar 2017 20:59


Austin
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 13 Mar 2017 21:13

Article seems contradicting itself quoting unnamed sources , Rafale is expensive and no money to buy it yet they can afford to pay $12 billion for single engine deal , and they just paid $9 billion to buy Rafale. Where will they get that kind of money for single engine deal when so many defense project for long term is stuck

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 23 Mar 2017 22:28

France launches F4-standard Rafale development
France’s defence ministry has launched development work on the next production standard of the Dassault Rafale, designed to deliver aircraft built to the enhanced F4 level from 2025.

In addition, Paris is considering placing a fresh order for the multirole type under an agreement for a fifth tranche of aircraft.

Although light on specifics, the defence ministry says the F4 upgrade will be driven by operational feedback and will include improvements to the Rafale’s networking capabilities and sensors.

In addition, it will take into account the “expected evolution” of missiles and engines, as well as the likely integration of new capabilities.

Jean-Yves Le Drian, the French defence minister, says: “The launch of the F4 standard is essential to bring to our armed forces, by 2025, a system with increased performance as a response to the reality of ever-more-demanding commitments.”

Although some features will be available from 2023, the ministry says, the first aircraft to be fully equipped to the F4 standard will arrive in 2025.

It adds that a decision covering the fifth tranche of production will be made in its next six-year procurement plan, due in 2019.

France has so far ordered 180 Rafales for its air force and navy, but with the progressive retirement of its Mirage 2000s, it will require additional examples to maintain its combat fleet at 225 aircraft.

Dassault chief executive Éric Trappier says: “I am also delighted that the defence ministry underlines the need to continue with acquisition of the Rafale beyond the fourth tranche currently in production, in order primarily to meet the needs of the French air force.”

In a recent interview, Trappier indicated that France could eventually require as many as 100 additional aircraft.

He says the F4 standard will also act as a “launch pad” for future export sales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Gagan » 24 Mar 2017 00:48

Don't base one's judgement on the french based on what all went on when St Anthony was MoD.
That UPA govt was a unique animal. I think the thought had reached home, that this was their last ever oppertunity to be in power, and so all hell had broken loose and we saw those scams galore then.
I am sure the political leadership's attention was directed on issues other than technical and those based on merit

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby chetak » 24 Mar 2017 03:59

Austin wrote:Uptime is a function of how much you want to spend on spares and support etc to keep certain % of of aircraft operational at any point of time , The more aircraft you want available the more OPEX you will have to spend on it.


most advanced air forces spend a lot of time in the simulator and little time in the air.

That's how it should be.

These are very expensive machines that will be needed in times of tension and the hours are not to be idly busted up by daily dhobi style flying.

Maintenance and cost of spares is very very steep. More needless flying is not the answer. Invest in and use simulators extensively.

Every pilot can keep his hand in by doing a few hours of actual flying every month and simulator missions very much more often

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 24 Mar 2017 20:18

^^^

AJTs can also be used for flying hours.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2017 23:22

Rafale's India success could help Dassault sweeten Malaysian deal
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/18634/ ... ysian_Deal

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Mar 2017 23:37


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby rohitvats » 26 Mar 2017 00:11



Can some kind soul example the whole stuff and info-graphic? Thanks.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 29 Mar 2017 00:47

Perhaps you already know or I am not getting the question, all it is saying is that the same target when acquired through different sensors (like radar and passive ECCM) appear as different targets, but the fusion technology that is the plane, merges them into one.


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