VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Rakesh
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

SSridhar wrote:Its only significant strategic partner in Indo-Pacific is India. This is a region with considerable French interests.
This is a perfect opportunity for France and India to put their strategic partnership into overdrive mode. Fully agree SSridhar-ji. +108 to you!
Cain Marko wrote:This sounds likely. Whether desh acquiesces is a different matter but now is the time for some hard bargain to be driven. Get the SMX Ocean + some raffles.

The SMX is no SSN but would be quieter and offer plenty of time on station in the areas of interest to India (similar to those that the Aussies showed in that little graphic). Along with the chakras, this will be a good backup until Desi SSNs start to roll off.
Sirjee, at this stage (with the P-75I contest drifting aimlessly)....better to just continue with the Scorpene line. And exact spec as the first six boats. Don't even customize it. Do that jadugar during their mid life refits (DRDO AIP will be a good start). Just build six more Kalvari boat and end the SSK contest. And order the F-21 torpedo as a follow on deal for six more Kalvari boats. No other SSK will come quicker. SMX Ocean will only add delay and time is not a luxury that the Indian Navy's submarine arm has.

The real catch is the SSN. If we can go with our own reactor design with a life of 25 - 30 years with French kit on board, it is a win win situation for the Indian Navy. In the Indian nuclear submarines thread, Vicky has stated that India can make a reactor with that long of a life. One thing is beyond doubt with AUKUS is that nuclear powered submarines will be the offensive platform of choice to engage the PLAN. It will also be used for recon and intelligence gathering. This idea that a CATOBAR will be invincible against submarines, has now been disproven.

But since this is the Rafale thread, order additional Rafales for the IAF and end this MRFA farce. There is no need to maintain any semblance of considering US interests. They shut it down with AUKUS, not us. What is the point of QUAD now?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

True., QUAD lost its teeth , all deals with unkle would be quid pro quo basis onlee
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

What teeth has the QUAD lost that it had earlier? Each member is free to strike its own bi-lateral, or multi-lateral deals with one another and those need not be extended to all members of the QUAD (how would that even work?). It isn't a formal alliance, treaty, or a formal agreement that binds members to only discuss security inside the group of four. I don't think that was the expectation. This isn't the norm in even formal military alliances like NATO where members can and routinely do strike bi-lateral or multi-lateral deals that are not inclusive of all alliance members. Other bi-lateral arrangements on security cooperation not extended to each and every QUAD member include US partnership with Japan on its next generation fighter platform, US-Japan BMD partnership, and now the US-UK-Australia nuclear sub deal. I'm sure there will be more bi-lateral deals struck even within QUAD members even outside the US (Japan-India, India-Australia or Japan-Australia). All Indo-US deals have and will continue to be on a transactional basis. It has rarely been otherwise and was probably never expected to change by either parties.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Sep 2021 21:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Pratyush wrote:These 36 are options from the original contract. If India goes for them, further negotiation is not required.

A number greater than that might require further negotiation. But I don't think that in view of the MWF & ORCA programs. IAF will be permitted to go beyond the options.

That too purely as a stop gap measure.
IIRC, the contract for the Rafales was a one-time only deal with no options clause included.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:These 36 are options from the original contract. If India goes for them, further negotiation is not required.

A number greater than that might require further negotiation. But I don't think that in view of the MWF & ORCA programs. IAF will be permitted to go beyond the options.

That too purely as a stop gap measure.
IIRC, the contract for the Rafales was a one-time only deal with no options clause included.
Hmm. IIRC actually there was an option clause for another 36 in the original. It is for this reason that the recent offers have been much cheaper.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:Sirjee, at this stage (with the P-75I contest drifting aimlessly)....better to just continue with the Scorpene line. And exact spec as the first six boats. Don't even customize it. Do that jadugar during their mid life refits (DRDO AIP will be a good start). Just build six more Kalvari boat and end the SSK contest. And order the F-21 torpedo as a follow on deal for six more Kalvari boats. No other SSK will come quicker. SMX Ocean will only add delay and time is not a luxury that the Indian Navy's submarine arm has.

The real catch is the SSN. If we can go with our own reactor design with a life of 25 - 30 years with French kit on board, it is a win win situation for the Indian Navy. In the Indian nuclear submarines thread, Vicky has stated that India can make a reactor with that long of a life. One thing is beyond doubt with AUKUS is that nuclear powered submarines will be the offensive platform of choice to engage the PLAN. It will also be used for recon and intelligence gathering. This idea that a CATOBAR will be invincible against submarines, has now been disproven.

But since this is the Rafale thread, order additional Rafales for the IAF and end this MRFA farce. There is no need to maintain any semblance of considering US interests. They shut it down with AUKUS, not us. What is the point of QUAD now?
I see your point. I was thinking of the RFI that the Navy issued (ages ago now) for the P75I and they seemed to want a rather large boat, which makes me wonder if they were not looking for a sort of mini-SS(G)N as an escort to their CBG in the IOR and SCS. Kind of a hedge against a delay in SSNs.
Being a relatively cash strapped service I think the Navy is trying to get as much as it can done through multirole platforms. The big SSK will do the work of regular SSKs plus serve well enough on longer missions as a cruise missile carrier and escort.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Cain Marko wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote: IIRC, the contract for the Rafales was a one-time only deal with no options clause included.
Hmm. IIRC actually there was an option clause for another 36 in the original. It is for this reason that the recent offers have been much cheaper.
No there was no options clause with the 36 ordered Rafales.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Prasad »

It'll still cost us $4-5bn. Egypt's deal cost $4.5bn for 30.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

Hopefully lesser unless there is a spares clause, because we've already set up a lot of the base infra. Plus no ISE costs. No offset clause.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by hemant_sai »

Why we keep naive expectations? They will come up with all excuses or unnecessary requirements to keep the overall deal around same cost - slightly above or below.

It is pathetic that decision making about nation's security is so dependent on political pressures.
What is stopping defense minister or CDS to inform the parliamentary committee that yes another 36 is absolute requirement of IAF and we are going ahead with it.
And they should also mention the reasonable range of cost they are looking for.

Why waste everyone's (MoD) precious time on MRFA? Why there should be opportunity for fake propaganda after the deal is signed?
What is there to hide about it from enemy or media?

This is right time to go for it so that deliveries start from mid-2024.

Another angle is - by any chance if 2024 govt changes - there is no scope for Rafale.
We need to understand Rafale deal was purposely delayed to accommodate paki and chini interests.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

brar_w wrote:What teeth has the QUAD lost that it had earlier? .
Sharmaji ke bete ka teeth dekho :roll:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ks_sachin »

hemant_sai wrote: We need to understand Rafale deal was purposely delayed to accommodate paki and chini interests.

How So?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

Kartik wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Hmm. IIRC actually there was an option clause for another 36 in the original. It is for this reason that the recent offers have been much cheaper.
No there was no options clause with the 36 ordered Rafales.
Endorse Kartik's point
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 019_1.html

As far as base infra, i believe hashimara and ambala have been improved to host these jets. Other permanent peacetime homes might require improvement..
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

I would like to see a different source for no option clause from Ajai Shukla.

I have been looking for confirmation or denial for 36 options for the las few days but have not been able to get one.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ShivS »

Karan M wrote:Hopefully lesser unless there is a spares clause, because we've already set up a lot of the base infra. Plus no ISE costs. No offset clause.
Will be around US 4.5 to 5 billion for 36 aircraft and that’s around half the cost of the first 36
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

hemant_sai wrote:Why we keep naive expectations? They will come up with all excuses or unnecessary requirements to keep the overall deal around same cost - slightly above or below.

It is pathetic that decision making about nation's security is so dependent on political pressures.
What is stopping defense minister or CDS to inform the parliamentary committee that yes another 36 is absolute requirement of IAF and we are going ahead with it.
And they should also mention the reasonable range of cost they are looking for.

Why waste everyone's (MoD) precious time on MRFA? Why there should be opportunity for fake propaganda after the deal is signed?
What is there to hide about it from enemy or media?

This is right time to go for it so that deliveries start from mid-2024.

Another angle is - by any chance if 2024 govt changes - there is no scope for Rafale.
We need to understand Rafale deal was purposely delayed to accommodate paki and chini interests.
Please don't make absurd posts.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by basant »

ShivS wrote:
Karan M wrote:Hopefully lesser unless there is a spares clause, because we've already set up a lot of the base infra. Plus no ISE costs. No offset clause.
Will be around US 4.5 to 5 billion for 36 aircraft and that’s around half the cost of the first 36
I doubt if infrastructure costs were half. There are expensive weapons too, a component that remains the same.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ShivS »

Rough numbers - aircraft USD 100-105 mm each, USD 10-12 mm for performance based logistics and USD20-25 mm for weapons. USD 130 mm -150 mm for full package
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by NRao »

https://mobile.twitter.com/MaverickBhar ... 0904308744 ----->
Additional Rafales will be F4 , to be ordered next year.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by viveks »

Are the Rafales performing super cruise over the northern skies? We are now the only nation in Asia to possess this ability. Sometimes, it feels we have augmented our capability so much that it feels awkward to think of us as a dehaat third world nation. A complete paradox.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by V_Raman »

As they say - India is not a poor country. We have a lot of poor people.

We have a big GDP, launch satellites, nukes, nuke reactors. upcoming MIC. a military even some in P5 cannot take on. We can vaccinate a country of 1.3B at breathtaking pace. But we have lot of poor people. poor infra etc. we also arguably have the worlds largest gold reserves if you include the civilian gold. Paradox indeed.

This is going way OT. At the end of the day - we are our own worst enemy. The corruption in the system is also breathtaking - this is what is killing us IMO.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Images of Rafale jet carrying Scalp stealth cruise missile released by IAF
https://frontierindia.com/images-of-raf ... ed-by-iaf/
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

He missed what is hanging right underneath the centre hardpoint :lol:

https://twitter.com/mananbhattnavy/stat ... 49290?s=20 ---> IAF Rafale loaded with MBDA MICA air to air missiles.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 36230?s=20 ---> Lovely photo from a Rafale hangar in Ambala! Historic affiliation formally signed between IAF's No 17 Squadron & the Army's Sikh Light Infantry regiment. That's Army Chief, Gen MM Naravane in the picture -- he's Colonel Commandant (senior most serving officer) of the Sikh LI.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 66977?s=20 ---> The IAF having a stellar run of gorgeous mid-air photography. This one by Group Captain KD Beri of a No 17 Squadron Rafale with its flare vapour trails nicely vortexed in the fighter's wake.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 36230?s=20 ---> Lovely photo from a Rafale hangar in Ambala! Historic affiliation formally signed between IAF's No 17 Squadron & the Army's Sikh Light Infantry regiment. That's Army Chief, Gen MM Naravane in the picture -- he's Colonel Commandant (senior most serving officer) of the Sikh LI.
From this picture series, check out that brand new hardened and air conditioned shelter at Ambala AFS for the Rafale.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1445 ... 07808?s=20 ---> The historic affiliation of No 17 Sqn of IAF with the Sikh Light Infantry of the Indian Army, was formally signed at a solemn ceremony at AFS Ambala today in the presence of General MM Naravane, who is also the Colonel Commandant of Regiment and Air Marshal Amit Dev, AOC-in-C, HQ WAC.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Pratisht3/status/14 ... 19811?s=20 ---> And Here I begin my Journey with @ReviewVayu

In my article -Strength in diversity: The Sukhoi-Rafale duo, I have tried to cover every single thing we Know about Sukhoi's and Rafales. How their combo is going to perform various kind of missions. And much more.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Larry Walker »

Not having a long-range AAM like American Phoenix is the biggest chink in Su30's armor. Having a huge radar is of no good if adversary can take the first shot at you - because irrespective of how close to D-Max was the AAM fired, So30 will still have to break the attack as continuing on will only close the gap and make adversary shot kill more probable. Ideally if each Su30 carries 2 Phoenix like missiles which it can fire before adversary can fire, then it will help the Su30 to get more closer to the adversary for Astra/R-77/Mica shot while the enemy is engaged in defensive manouvre. Seeing a long AAM like Phoenix coming headlong guided by Bars like radar which can burn through most jamming pods will make PAF and PLAAF turn-tail when when they detect a IAF package headlong.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Nice article Rakesh!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

What are the advantages in combining a PESA radar equipped fighter and an AESA fighter as a strike package?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The Rambha will paint a nice juicy target on herself, while Katrina will do the ninja slicing :) Both will be used to devastating effect on the enemy. The S-400 will give the IAF insight into whatever weaknesses the system has and will be fully exploited against the PLAAF and PLA. Expect the PLAAF to do the same with their S-400 units. It will eventually come down to tactics and training, in which the IAF has the advantage.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

The one reality check - the S-400 is not yet with India. When is it due? And will it be operational immediately?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

In December and it will be. It was reported by the Russians - in the media - that Indian crews were perfecting their training quite well on the system. The training is happening in Russia.

India's S-400 Operators Undergo Phase 2 of Training
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/30297 ... f_Training
The second phase of training appears to involve new Indian operators. "As for the training, the first group of Indian specialists completed the training. The second group is undergoing training. I would not talk about the number of people but it is a sufficient number for the Indian armed forces to effectively operate our equipment. I would like to say that the results shown by the first group of Indian specialists after the training were very high. I would like to note the [high] level of training of Indian specialists," Almaz-Antey, Vyacheslav Dzirkaln, deputy CEO of Almaz-Antey said during the Army 2021 International Military-Technical Forum.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Larry Walker »

Katarina will be in LPI mode gather situational awareness and identifying targets and emissions. Rambha will then use it brute force on the identified objectives while Katharina will be in scout mode and probably create white noise.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

Regarding Su-30 and Rafale.

Depends on the mission. At Balakot, the same Avenger formation which undertook AD mission the next day also accompanied the Mirage fleet as escorts.

With I-Derby ER, Astra Mk1/2 and new EW pods, the existing Su30 fleet even without a radar upgrade can overwhelm most PAF and PLAAF fighters. However to go up against the latest AESA equipped J-16s and J-20s, a radar upgrade will definitely help in terms of ensuring superiority with former, and retaining true BVR capacity against latter.

Otherwise even with PRC quality issues regarding their systems, at least on paper, assuming all their systems function as intended, their EW + longer range radar + PL-15 will be a hard nut for us to crack.

Also, if the J-20s frontal RCS is up to claimed spec, we will need EW pods and long range AWACS support to not let it get the first shot with the PL-15.

If the J-20 is "true stealth" and doesn't carry its own EW, then an AESA upgraded Flanker can indeed detect and attack it at true BVR ranges, while denying it the first shot using EW, and using AWACS for SA in the initial approach stages.

The clock is ticking however and it's extremely frustrating why the GOI /IAF haven't accelerated the Su30 upgrade.

We are at 30 squadrons and it's not optimal. The GOIs so called advisors are too focused on balancing the books while a threat develops IMHO. These are not items that can be suddenly ordered.

Even the 21 MiG-29s and 12 Su30s haven't been ordered. It's like there is no sense of urgency in the GOI establishment regarding how fast crisis situations can ddevelop. If we have significant losses in a conflict, it is the soldiers and political establishment who will be held accountable whereas those who downplayed the threat will get away scot free.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:The Rambha will paint a nice juicy target on herself, while Katrina will do the ninja slicing :) Both will be used to devastating effect on the enemy. The S-400 will give the IAF insight into whatever weaknesses the system has and will be fully exploited against the PLAAF and PLA. Expect the PLAAF to do the same with their S-400 units. It will eventually come down to tactics and training, in which the IAF has the advantage.
We will have just 36 Rafales & 260 MKIs with 60-70% availability. How many joint missions can we fly - there is a limit. Indeed +36 rafales should be ordered soonest instead of the 114 MRFA fantasy.

Elsewhere, KaranM underlined that there should be no delay in MKI upgrade & topup order of Mig29/Su30MKI. ^101 to that

Just to be sure, is the unkil pressing our establishment hard for giving american planes an entry into IAF through 114MRFA ?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Its only significant strategic partner in Indo-Pacific is India. This is a region with considerable French interests.
This is a perfect opportunity for France and India to put their strategic partnership into overdrive mode. Fully agree SSridhar-ji. +108 to you!
It might be interesting to know that Germany and France are in support of better economic relations with China. Money talks. Germany continues to export dual use technology to China...sub engines being a good example..France is likely to follow suit if the carrot is big enough

Better not to go overboard with the French bonhomie. Geopolitics is purely transactional, not romantic. India would be served best by its own mil industrial complex.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_Sharma »

^ on the contrary IAF seems pretty satisfied with MKI performance by our Avengers during 26 Feb encounter. Other than ordering more AAM missiles from Russia and Ukraine they have not pressed for Sukhoi upgrade at all.

Infact Tejas, MKI & Rafale trio will make life very difficult for porkis and lizard.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/severerocket/status ... 57803?s=20 --->Need for Speed!! The IAF Rafale did an insane low level, high speed pass at 0.9 Mach at AFS Hindon yesterday as part of the IAF Day rehearsal.

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