VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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kit
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

what are those "tattoos" on the sides ?!.. havent seen those before ? sensor windows ?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

kit wrote:
what are those "tattoos" on the sides ?!.. havent seen those before ? sensor windows ?
Most likely anti-skid surfacing on the area around the cockpit where pilots and technicians are stepping most often.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Indians already roughing up French beauty's cheeks ;)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Three more will arrive in November and three more in December. That will bring the total to 35 aircraft. Serial # RB008 - the twin seater Rafale - with the ISE upgrades will be delivered last in early 2022. After RB008 arrives, the remaining 35 aircraft will be upgraded with the ISE enhancements.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/144 ... 81472?s=20 ---> 3 more IAF Rafales arrived in country yesterday, taking total deliveries to 29. With 17 Squadron in Ambala topped up with its 18 airframes, 101 Squadron now has 11 airframes, with 7 left to be delivered to complete the total order for 36. (File photo).

Image
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 11362?s=20 ---> Now, the one thing that India has learnt from the Mirage 2000 and Mig-29 inductions is that having a large pool of directly imported combat jets is a very bad idea. This is why license production even if sub-optimal in some respects is favoured, and very rightly so.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/144 ... 42050?s=20 ---> Directly importing 72 ( i.e 36 in addition to the 36 already on order) Rafales may seem like a 'quick fix' but is a problem waiting to happen in the 2030s. On the other hand license production of 90 plus Rafales with high-levels of spares indigenization is a much better idea.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by shyamd »

Indian MOD have said that they want another 36 rafales under G2G agreement. I think price close to agreement too. More later when time permits.

IAF chief has publicly declared that they dont want a new type of a/c in fleet. Dassault hoping for the 114 a/c deal. IAF Chief wants 100% ToT (or very close) incl. design and production tech.

Debate still ongoing. As usual these things will be sorted at the very last moment.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Eye on mega deal with Navy, Dassault will fly Rafale Marine to India in 2022 for showcase trip
https://theprint.in/defence/eye-on-mega ... ip/751244/
18 October 2021

French defence giant Dassault Aviation is likely to bring the naval version of the Rafale aircraft to India in early 2022 to showcase its ability to carry out a ski-jump, which is a crucial take-off capability to operate from Indian aircraft carriers, The Print has learnt. Sources in the defence establishment said Dassault, which is eyeing a mega contract with the Indian Navy for new fighters, has offered to bring the Rafale M (Marine) to India. The Navy plans to procure new fighters to replace the Russian MiG 29Ks. “The Rafale M will not take off from the aircraft carrier (during the showcase) but from the shore-based test facility (SBTF) at INS Hansa, Goa. The Dassault Aviation is confident and wanted to showcase their capability in India itself,” a source said. The sources added that the dates are yet to be worked out but Dassault has offered to bring the Rafale M as early as January, if needed.

Carrier-based fighters primarily come in three categories — STOVL (short take-off and vertical landing), STOBAR (Short Take-off but Arrested Recovery) and CATOBAR (catapult take-off but arrested recovery). French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle and American carriers use CATOBAR while Indian carriers — INS Vikramaditya and an indigenous one that is under trial — employ STOBAR. That’s why foreign fighters have to showcase the capability as a basic requirement. A fighter aircraft’s behaviour for a few seconds after ski-jump take-offs, until wing-borne flight takes place, is critical to achieve a successful launch from carriers. Rafale M’s competitor — the F/A-18 Super Hornet fighter of Boeing — had demonstrated the ski-jump capability in December 2020. However, the demonstration was held at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in the US.

Talks for Naval version of Rafale date back to 2016

Dassault Aviation had been in talks with the Navy for the naval version of the Rafale even before they signed the contract for the 36 air force fighters in 2016. In 2017, the Navy issued a Request for Information (RFI) to foreign players for 57 new fighters. However, with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) now working on a Twin-Engine Carrier-Based Deck Fighter (TEBDF), the Navy is likely to cut down its requirements for foreign fighters. Last year, Navy chief Admiral Karambir Singh had also said the force may pursue joint acquisition of fighters with the IAF. “We have the MiG-29K operating from the Vikramaditya and will operate from the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC)-I. To replace them, we have taken up a case for the Multi-Role Carrier-Borne Fighters (MRCBF) which we are trying to do along with the IAF,” he said.

‘Lift of IAC-I can accommodate all aircraft’

Sources in the defence establishment sought to allay fears expressed in some quarters that the lift of the indigenous aircraft carrier was small and would not be able to accommodate either the Rafale M or the F/A-18. While the Boeing fighter comes with foldable wings, Rafale does not. “The mere fact that both companies are eager to offer their aircraft means that they have taken into account various measurements,” a source said, refusing to get into the specifics. Sources also said that all discussions on the project are happening internally within the Navy and any move to proceed further will depend on what the companies have to offer in terms of cost, including lifecycle costs and future upgrades. While Dassault is happy to merge naval requirements with that of the Air Force, Boeing is skeptical about it, they added.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Y. Kanan »

Apologies if this has been covered already, but I keep seeing stuff on the internet saying that the PAF-FA (SU-57) actually would have cost us more, per unit, than the Rafale after the whole packge was taken into consideration (spares, maintenance, weapons, support, etc).

Also keep seeing alleged insider accounts or anecdotal reports saying that the SU-57 was actually not stealthy at all, that the Rafale was actually much more stealthy in every aspect, that the SU-57 avionics \ electronics \ weapons \ sensor suite were all vastly inferior, it was an unreliable aircraft, its engines wore out prematurely... all kinds of stuff basically saying it was inferior to the Rafale in every way, but still somehow would have been more expensive.

What's the consensus on all this? The more I hear, the more it sounds like Rafale may have been not only the best choice but a better bang for our buck as well, so to speak.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

Y. Kanan wrote:What's the consensus on all this? The more I hear, the more it sounds like Rafale may have been not only the best choice but a better bang for our buck as well, so to speak.
When India left the PAKFA program, there were just prototypes of the Su-57 in existence across a range of maturity and tech capability. Serial production had not yet started and the various enhancements and weapons planned for the platform were years away from becoming operational. Despite being the only partner (with funding committed to it), no IAF pilot was able to fly the aircraft. Even now there exists just one or two serial production Su-57's and it will be several years all the planned enhancements are operationally fielded. In contrast, the Rafale was mature, operational, and had known and delivered capability that was operational and fully tested by the French Air Force that had deployed it in combat as well. Given where each platform was it was clear that the Rafale would be the one the IAF would have wanted if it was interested in acquiring credible operational capability in a relatively short amount of time. The FGFA (Indian version of Su-57) was probably a decade or more away from being an operational reality when the MOD ended its participation in the program. IAF has and had a squadron strength issue when it decided, and there was very little justification in commiting resources to a foreign R&D program that would not have begun contributing to IAF's operational capability till many years into the future when it could instead spend that to build up some short-medium term capability.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

what is only whispered and never acknowledged openly is this - (Reason for India dropping of the FGFA) - Russians were not willing to let IAF anywhere near the 5th gen tech and aircraft, which they believe was of critical importance to them (as US would not allow anyone F-22, and France will not allow full ToT of Rafale). They were happy to take our money and at the time the partnership was made, Russians were not sure that they can afford the r&d and may have been willing us to be a partner )and would have promised as such, but reengaged it on it later).
They are willing to make that amend with SU-75, where they have promised that India will have 'full' access from the beginning. That access no doubt will be better than any other foreign player, but not as good as our own amca. Suddenly this month's update is showing that we are there wrt to 5th gen tech.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

F-22 comparisons aren't really relevant as that program was not designed to have foreign sales or foreign development partners. No one was brought onboard, asked to commit funding, and later told to stay back. It was actually a case of a few wanting in (Japan and Israel) and them told that it was cost prohibitive to develop an exportable version and given the program a sale wasn't possible. On the F-35, which was designed to have partners, they were allowed to be part of the program right from the demonstration (UK had multiple pilots fly the X plane demonstrators) phase and pre source selection stage and then into the actual program. UK and the Netherlands chose to embed into the development (UK) and operational (UK and the Dutch) test phase with their own uniformed pilots (and their own aircraft in the case of the Dutch) as did several others. The attitude from the Russian MOD may have been simply to take on a funding partner and deliver them a product but clearly the Indian MOD and/or IAF wasn't interested in being that passive. What likely sealed the exit was the need to commit additional funding for FGFA. Resource constrained, the IAF must have decided to spend that money on buying the Rafale which fills in an urgent need for aircraft. The subsequent slow progress of the PAKFA, and a lack of export success of that program has vindicated this decision.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Khalsa »

brar_w wrote:The subsequent slow progress of the PAKFA, and a lack of export success of that program has vindicated this decision.
Here Here
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

Vivek K wrote:13 aircraft per year may look small compared to our needs but not so small compared to the Rafale production statistic (source Wikipedia) - ". As of 2012, the fabrication process of each fighter took 24 months, with an annual production rate of eleven aircraft". This is circa 2012 so could be outdated. Certainly though HAL needs to look at exports aggressively and raise its production capacity.
That's a French decision to scale back production rates (it is designed for 2 dozen a year IIRC) because they need to stretch production through the mid to late 2030's to avoid any production gaps between Rafale and SCAF. They could have increased production rates once export orders began coming in but the French MOD decided to just raise them a little and divert its own aircraft deliveries to export customers. The French haven't received a new Rafale in a number of years IIRC and their own fleet is actually in decline because they've offloaded some older aircraft to Greece with replacements expected to arrive only in 2023.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

brar_w wrote:
Vivek K wrote:13 aircraft per year may look small compared to our needs but not so small compared to the Rafale production statistic (source Wikipedia) - ". As of 2012, the fabrication process of each fighter took 24 months, with an annual production rate of eleven aircraft". This is circa 2012 so could be outdated. Certainly though HAL needs to look at exports aggressively and raise its production capacity.
That's a French decision to scale back production rates (it is designed for 2 dozen a year IIRC) because they need to stretch production through the mid to late 2030's to avoid any production gaps between Rafale and SCAF. They could have increased production rates once export orders began coming in but the French MOD decided to just raise them a little and divert its own aircraft deliveries to export customers. The French haven't received a new Rafale in a number of years IIRC and their own fleet is actually in decline because they've offloaded some older aircraft to Greece with replacements expected to arrive only in 2023.
In addition to what brar said above, the line at Merignac can actually build 33 Rafales per year. However is deliberately kept low for the reasons brar has listed above. They barely do around 11 aircraft per year....one third the actual designed capacity. There are also budgetary issues that factor into the production rate. The French simply cannot afford to induct a large number at one go. Even the 11 is financially tight for them, but they do it because that is what is required to keep the line viable. When Egypt became the first Rafale customer, the French were willing to move Rafales (on the production line) destined for the French air force and navy to Egypt. They just removed - while on the production line - the nuclear hardwiring and software which enables the Rafale to carry the ASMP-A nuclear tipped missile. By the time of the Egypt order, the French had a sizeable Rafale fleet and could allow the export orders to go through, while they waited for their own Rafale order to be completed.

The SCAF will share the exact same production fate and seeing how ridiculously expensive the unit cost will be, one can expect the annual production rate to be in the single digits. The program will also be seriously delayed and run over budget, just like most military programs the world over. Just look at the Rafale development and see the delays there. And SCAF will be exported eventually.

The French make some pretty cutting edge military equipment, but they rely on export orders to sustain their MIC. Therefore they have a large clientele for their military equipment. They will sell practically anything - within reason - to anyone who can afford it. Bangladesh is reportedly looking at a new fighter aircraft to replace their ageing MiG-29s and France is eagerly courting them. The UK made the decision to buy into the US ecosystem early on, because the development costs are just unaffordable for them. There are pros and cons to both paths, but the French opted the path of developing their own platforms. To be very honest, the French can do it because of the American presence in Western Europe. When Trump was pulling his tantrums about NATO, Macron was eager to establish a European MIC, but that went nowhere AFAIK.

But from an Indian perspective, the Rafale represents virtually everything the IAF is looking for in a modern 4th plus generation "Western" fighter. She will be more than a match for anything the Chinese can bring and that includes the J-20. The French also look the other way when the IAF does their jugaad on their platforms and that is a key selling point for the IAF.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

The biggest hurdle (time) to SCAF will be technology development and maturity. They are going from a 4.5 gen design to a 5.5 gen design without having operational experience with stealthly airframes, prototyping next gen propulsion or signature reduction in engines, or LPD/LPI sensor and comms the like of which SCAF will require. This will take time to develop, demonstrate, mature and absorb. This is why the Germans and the French are giving themselves till 2040 to develop and field the system. Till then, the Rafale will need to stay in production and the French have to walk a tightrope in terms of having enough Rafale's in its Air Force to ensuring that there is always a healthy backlog to sustain at least one a month production rate. They could stretch out their own domestic production program so that French don't get all their desired number of aircraft till the late 2020s or early 2030s. If the nEUROn concept worked, then Dassault would have had a platform to build and supply in the late 2020s to late 2030s timeframe as it waited for SCAF to enter serial production in 2038-2040. This would have allowed them to push Rafales at a higher rate and make it more affordable which would have generated more potential export sales. But for now, the Rafale will have to carry that responsibility and I doubt the French MOD would want a production holiday given the strategic importance of this to their industrial base (Dassault is still a relatively small (10-15% marketshare) player in business jets thus making combat aircraft an important source of revenue and tech development).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Y. Kanan »

brar_w wrote:
Vivek K wrote:13 aircraft per year may look small compared to our needs but not so small compared to the Rafale production statistic (source Wikipedia) - ". As of 2012, the fabrication process of each fighter took 24 months, with an annual production rate of eleven aircraft". This is circa 2012 so could be outdated. Certainly though HAL needs to look at exports aggressively and raise its production capacity.
That's a French decision to scale back production rates (it is designed for 2 dozen a year IIRC) because they need to stretch production through the mid to late 2030's to avoid any production gaps between Rafale and SCAF. They could have increased production rates once export orders began coming in but the French MOD decided to just raise them a little and divert its own aircraft deliveries to export customers. The French haven't received a new Rafale in a number of years IIRC and their own fleet is actually in decline because they've offloaded some older aircraft to Greece with replacements expected to arrive only in 2023.
It's strange to hear the Rafale talked about in this way (in decline, selling off old airframes, etc). I remember very clearly when the Rafale came out, how it was somewhat revolutionary for its time and very much bleeding edge technology in every way. It was even considered to be a quasi-stealthy aircraft. Now its quite mature, but from everything we're hearing, despite being a design from the late 80's, the Rafale is still vastly superior to the brand-new SU-57 in every way.

I must say, I was very critical of the Rafale purchase in the beginning, wondering at the time why we didn't simply double-down on SU-30MKI's and Tejas, producing more of them and working to upgrade them. But now its clear that despite the high cost, the Rafale is going to be the next Mirage-2000 of the IAF. That is to say, the aircraft you call upon when you really need to hit a difficult target behind enemy lines with precision. Despite having so many other strike aircraft in our inventory in 1999, it was only our handful of Mirage-2000's that actually bombed the Pakis effectively. Same for Balakot 2019; our large fleet of SU-30MKI's, which were touted as highly capable strike aircraft from the beginning, were not trusted for this mission. Instead we called upon our 40 year old Mirage-2000's. I suspect that next time, it will be Rafales doing the strike missions (and probably our upgraded Mirage-2000's if they're still around) while our SU-30's are relegated to CAP duty over friendly lines only. Same for Tejas as well, probably.
fanne wrote:They are willing to make that amend with SU-75, where they have promised that India will have 'full' access from the beginning. That access no doubt will be better than any other foreign player, but not as good as our own amca. Suddenly this month's update is showing that we are there wrt to 5th gen tech.
I thought AMCA was still just a pipe dream. What's changed?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Paul »

Despite having so many other strike aircraft in our inventory in 1999, it was only our handful of Mirage-2000's that actually bombed the Pakis effectively. Same for Balakot 2019; our large fleet of SU-30MKI's, which were touted as highly capable strike aircraft from the beginning, were not trusted for this mission. Instead we called upon our 40 year old Mirage-2000's.
This is Abhijit Iyer Mitra's line. The reason MKIs were not used is that the SPICE munitions were not integrated with them. Next time it may be a different story.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Knowing how precious Rafale's are, can we disperse some of the fleet to the Hinterland, both Ambala and Hashimara are awfully close to the Borders.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

Y. Kanan wrote:
brar_w wrote: That's a French decision to scale back production rates (it is designed for 2 dozen a year IIRC) because they need to stretch production through the mid to late 2030's to avoid any production gaps between Rafale and SCAF. They could have increased production rates once export orders began coming in but the French MOD decided to just raise them a little and divert its own aircraft deliveries to export customers. The French haven't received a new Rafale in a number of years IIRC and their own fleet is actually in decline because they've offloaded some older aircraft to Greece with replacements expected to arrive only in 2023.
It's strange to hear the Rafale talked about in this way (in decline, selling off old airframes, etc). I remember very clearly when the Rafale came out, how it was somewhat revolutionary for its time and very much bleeding edge technology in every way. It was even considered to be a quasi-stealthy aircraft. Now its quite mature, but from everything we're hearing, despite being a design from the late 80's, the Rafale is still vastly superior to the brand-new SU-57 in every way.

I must say, I was very critical of the Rafale purchase in the beginning, wondering at the time why we didn't simply double-down on SU-30MKI's and Tejas, producing more of them and working to upgrade them. But now its clear that despite the high cost, the Rafale is going to be the next Mirage-2000 of the IAF. That is to say, the aircraft you call upon when you really need to hit a difficult target behind enemy lines with precision. Despite having so many other strike aircraft in our inventory in 1999, it was only our handful of Mirage-2000's that actually bombed the Pakis effectively. Same for Balakot 2019; our large fleet of SU-30MKI's, which were touted as highly capable strike aircraft from the beginning, were not trusted for this mission. Instead we called upon our 40 year old Mirage-2000's. I suspect that next time, it will be Rafales doing the strike missions (and probably our upgraded Mirage-2000's if they're still around) while our SU-30's are relegated to CAP duty over friendly lines only. Same for Tejas as well, probably.
fanne wrote:They are willing to make that amend with SU-75, where they have promised that India will have 'full' access from the beginning. That access no doubt will be better than any other foreign player, but not as good as our own amca. Suddenly this month's update is showing that we are there wrt to 5th gen tech.
I thought AMCA was still just a pipe dream. What's changed?
A whole lot of assumptions there none of which are accurate.

Mirage 2000s were used because they had Spice and Crystal Maze both integrated. Spice was preferred for low collateral damage based on political mandate. Crystal Maze for Bomb Damage Assessment as it has a datalink to beam back imagery. As it happened the CM couldn't be used due to cloud cover over the target. Su30 MKIs had Spice but not Crystal Maze. Other weapons evaluated were the Indian SAAW but the combination of Spice and CM won out.

Su30s escorted the Balakot strike. They were also used to do a fighter sweep with Jaguars towards the border to trigger the PAF, a high risk action, so much for them not being trusted. Post conflict, AM BS Dhanoa stated if all out destruction was preferred the first choice would be Su-30 with Brahmos. He also stated the IAFs preferred response for a PAF attack was a reprisal strike with the Su30s as they had the highest weight of attack with a huge warload.

Even post Rafale, Su30s have weapons the Rafale doesn't like the Brahmos, anti radiation missiles and a bunch of advanced Indian made PGM/missiles the Rafale can't as of yet carry. Plus other sensors like the Reccelite, Elta SAR pod etc.

Plus post upgrade it will continue to outperform the Rafale in terms of sensor reach.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

Y. Kanan wrote:It's strange to hear the Rafale talked about in this way (in decline, selling off old airframes, etc). I remember very clearly when the Rafale came out, how it was somewhat revolutionary for its time and very much bleeding edge technology in every way. It was even considered to be a quasi-stealthy aircraft. Now its quite mature, but from everything we're hearing, despite being a design from the late 80's, the Rafale is still vastly superior to the brand-new SU-57 in every way.
Who is speaking of the Rafale being in decline? This was how the program was designed (to stay at relatively low production volumes and stretch out the program to pick up export orders). The French have to tightly control the backlog of that platform since it ensures that they have a viable and economically profitable combat aircraft supplier (they have only one). To that end, they need to do all that they can to balance their own Air Force's needs and those of Dassault to export to generate revenue and keep a healthy backlog so that it can continue to produce it. If that means offering nations used aircraft at lower price then that is what they will consider. They've done that for Greece which specifically asked for used aircraft for economic and schedule reasons (they've done the same with F-35's wanting to see if they can acquire used USAF aircraft to field it quicker). France has slowed its acquisition and now will have 129 Rafales by 2025 once the twelve aircraft offloaded to Greece are backfilled. This is a balance they must strike and isn't something that paints the platform being poor or bad.

The market is competitive, and France doesn't have a large enough air-force to sustain all production via domestic orders. To be more attractive they've sold off some of their future delivery slots so that they can stand up export customers faster. It is an internal decision for them as they want a combat aircraft supplier to have a combat aircraft program in production as it transitions to the next generation system. If they had another combat aircraft like a UAV, UCAV, or something else then they could have consider producing at a higher rate, clearing the backlog (export+domestic) quicker and then shifting to the UCAV before beginning SCAF. But since they don't it is in their national interest to see the Rafale smoothly transition to SCAF in the late 2030s and that means at least 15 years of production which needs anywhere from 150-200 a/c orders (domestic+export) to sustain one a month rates. You can see why the prospects of a follow on IAF+IN order for them is such a big deal. It can single handidly cover majority of their future delivery needs. No other OEM is under that kind of pressure with any single (outside of their domestic) customer.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Combat Fleet of the IAF post induction of Rafale
https://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id= ... -of-Rafale

By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (retd)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 60135?s=20 ---> France may offer Bangladesh Rafales, during visit of Bangladesh PM Sheikh Hasina to Paris next month.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

BD can at max buy 8-12 Rafales.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

Yeah but since India bought Rafale, it is tilting towards buying the Eurofighter.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Eurofighter is more expensive and UK, Italy , Spain have moved on to the F35, it is really Germany 's baby now. For USD 3billion with weapons, training infrastructure, the order will be for 6 aircraft , which means 4 aircraft will be operational at any given point, I don't think they will be able to deter Myanmar, let alone India.

Looks like matching India 'a per capita Income when we were -23% during lockdown has gotten to thier heads.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Karan M wrote:Even post Rafale, Su30s have weapons the Rafale doesn't like the Brahmos, anti radiation missiles and a bunch of advanced Indian made PGM/missiles the Rafale can't as of yet carry. Plus other sensors like the Reccelite, Elta SAR pod etc.

Plus post upgrade it will continue to outperform the Rafale in terms of sensor reach.
Quick. Someone grab these words and frame them on a sticky somewhere! I've heard so much rnd about mki being shyte and what not, it's getting ridiculous.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The most advanced Rafale in existence (until the arrival of the F4) is this example below. And you don't need to take my word for it. That is from an Indian Rafale pilot. This is Rafale F3R(I) Serial # RB008 and will be the last Rafale to be delivered to India in early 2022. This is the one with the India Specific Enhancements. Both the pilots below have their faces blurred, because they are Rafale pilots of the French Air Force. The remaining 35 Indian Rafales will complete their ISE upgrades at Hasimara and Ambala by Sept 2022. I am unsure if the IAF will also call them F3R(I), but I like that term :)

https://twitter.com/_devildog_mm_/statu ... 29251?s=20 ---> RB008, the testbed for India specific enhancements on Rafale F3R. In more simpler format, the only Indian Air Force Rafale F3R(I) in existence.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Great video of IAF IL-76s refueling Rafales of the Egyptian air force. Click on the link below. I could be wrong, but I believe this is either right before or right after Blue Flag 2021, in which five IAF Mirage 2000TIs participated. Easy for them to do that stop over in Egypt, as the Mirage 2000s are already in the theatre.

https://twitter.com/EgyArmySpox/status/ ... 96323?s=20 ---> The Egyptian and Indian air forces are carrying out a joint training at an Egyptian air base.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rare shots of the new hardened air shelters built at Ambala and Hasimara AFS for the Rafale.

This is from Saurav Bhadauria, who I believe is the son of Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (retd).

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE9HN0npLlg ... hare_sheet

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE9GbT3JNgh ... hare_sheet
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:Rare shots of the new hardened air shelters built at Ambala and Hasimara AFS for the Rafale.

This is from Saurav Bhadauria, who I believe is the son of Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (retd).

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE9HN0npLlg ... hare_sheet

https://www.instagram.com/p/CE9GbT3JNgh ... hare_sheet
Rakesh-saar, I know this is the chief's son, and we could expect a modicum of discretion, but do we know if these pics out in public might potentially be a security risk?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The Chief himself is standing next to his son in the first picture. If there was any risk, he would have advised against taking pictures.

There is really nothing in those pictures of the Rafale that will raise any alarms. Hardened air shelters of the Indian Air Force have even come up in Bollywood movies, nothing secretive there.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by k prasad »

Rakesh wrote:The Chief himself is standing next to his son in the first picture. If there was any risk, he would have advised against taking pictures.

There is really nothing in those pictures of the Rafale that will raise any alarms. Hardened air shelters of the Indian Air Force have even come up in Bollywood movies, nothing secretive there.
Haha. Agreed. I tend to be a bit more conservative on this.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ramana »

These are new ones. And can figure out the thickness of the concrete. Also looks like a family day as we can see more civilians in the background.
Still indiscreet.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

No shutters visible . That's the other problem. Even a fragmentation bomb outside can devastate a literally irreplaceable asset. I hope they have movable shutters/gates on rails outside. Not ideal but at least something.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:The Chief himself is standing next to his son in the first picture. If there was any risk, he would have advised against taking pictures.

There is really nothing in those pictures of the Rafale that will raise any alarms. Hardened air shelters of the Indian Air Force have even come up in Bollywood movies, nothing secretive there.
probably because he was the chief, no one said anything.

on security aspects alone, such things are just not done.

what was the need to put it out on instagram
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by k prasad »

As a defence brat, it was drilled into me to be careful on disclosing things I might've seen at family days, etc. For eg, i kept mum about one of our testing sites that the old man worked on for years, until my advisor (an American) told me he'd visited it and had been given a tour. On the flipside, I know some other defence kids who would take their friends to hang out on base, without thought of possible security implications etc.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by VishalJ »

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The Chief himself is standing next to his son in the first picture. If there was any risk, he would have advised against taking pictures.

There is really nothing in those pictures of the Rafale that will raise any alarms. Hardened air shelters of the Indian Air Force have even come up in Bollywood movies, nothing secretive there.
probably because he was the chief, no one said anything.

on security aspects alone, such things are just not done.

what was the need to put it out on instagram
This is from the Rafale induction day.
I was there along with a whole host of media chaps clicking away to glory (not IN this particular shelter).

IAF/Doordarshan was livestreaming the event:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

FWIW....for now only media reports and I believe it is from one of those youtube channels.

https://twitter.com/Tricolour_First/sta ... 99618?s=20 ---> IAF pushing Defense Ministry for about 72-90 Rafales.

https://twitter.com/PrinceK26436141/sta ... 24801?s=20 ---> "IAF Pushing For 90 Rafale in Phase Induction," Media Report!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

its not about economy or teh best option..it is the best option now..just like happiness out of drugs is at every "now". The best option for india is to crank up tejas mk1, mk1a, mk2, ORCA, and AMCA. there is no other way. If we dont then we 30 years later we will be salivating for NGAD or neuron...this circus needs to stop stop and in our generation only....its not rakesh ji's wish...it is the wish of all jingos....just coz prosperity increases we can afford adopting kids too..but we prefer to have our own babies coz they have our dna and our beliefs in them..and not implanted ones...enough of rant from me...
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