VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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ArjunPandit
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

Rakesh wrote:FWIW....for now only media reports and I believe it is from one of those youtube channels.

https://twitter.com/Tricolour_First/sta ... 99618?s=20 ---> IAF pushing Defense Ministry for about 72-90 Rafales.

https://twitter.com/PrinceK26436141/sta ... 24801?s=20 ---> "IAF Pushing For 90 Rafale in Phase Induction," Media Report!
rakesh ji we have been hearing about these reports for long.. hope this turns out false as previous reports too...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

The IAF proposes the government disposes.

They have been pushing for some time. They can keep pushing.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

These are not even official twitter but random twitter accounts, which come with a new story, smart thing would be to Double down on Mk1 Lift, Mk 2, AMCA, order probably 18 Rafale and another 18 say in 4 years time.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

Pratyush wrote:The IAF proposes the government disposes.

They have been pushing for some time. They can keep pushing.
the question i have is why does IAF keep on proposing..may not be best suited for this thread though
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by AkshaySG »

90 more birds lol. That total (90+36) would be higher than the MMRCA demand of 114

In a world where to get even 36 Rafales we had to wrangle with the budget and contract for ages to find a acceptable solution on what planet does anyone think we can get 90 of them even it's a "phased" induction. Which if we're being honest most inductions already are.

Next 15 months are probably make or break for extra Rafales, We may end up ordering 36 more but if we don't I doubt the govt will be interested in potentially risky deals like this close to '24 elections
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sonugn »

Not relevant to India, but just putting this here:-

Rafale Contract for Egypt comes into force
The contract for the acquisition by Egypt of 30 additional Rafales to equip its air force came into force.
Announced on 4 May, this contract completes the first acquisition of 24 Rafales, signed in 2015, and will bring to 54 the number of Rafales operated by the Egyptian Air Force, the second in the world, after the French Air Force, to operate such a fleet of Rafales.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Pratyush »

90 additional birds means the total number to 126. Which is what the original number was planned to be.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

It was Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar who said (in an interview with Shiv Aroor last year) that the number of 114 MRFA was derived if the IAF chooses another fighter instead of the Rafale. Because that aircraft will have a different maintenance schedule, among other factors. But if it is the Rafale, then only 90 will be needed.

The IAF has seen the performance of the Rafale in Indian conditions and especially against the ongoing border standoff with China. The IAF is quite impressed with the machine and sees no point in inducting yet another 4th generation phoren fighter which will offer little to no marginal difference over the Rafale. And Dassault has been delivering Rafales to the IAF is a surprisingly quick manner. The first batch arrived in July 2020, formal induction in Sept 2020 and the last of the 36 will arrive in early 2022. In under two years, all 36 aircraft have been delivered. That is quite impressive from a production line at Merginac that churns out barely 11 Rafales a year.

Also, it will not be all 90 in one go, but rather in a phased manner. It will be 36 more + another 36 + 18 = 90 aircraft. Add that to the 36 in service now and the IAF will have a total of 126 Rafales (MMRCA 1.0).

So while there is no money for 114 MRFA, getting these aircraft in batches (every few years) appears to be the plan. Each time that plan gets closer to fruition, media reports come out with a new spin on the first Rafale deal. I expect a deal for a new batch of 36 before 2024. If the BJP wins again in 2024, another batch of 36 could arrive towards the end of that term. And even if it will be only another 36 more Rafales that come, that will spell the end of the MRFA contest (in her current form). No OEM will transfer a production line for anything less than 100 aircraft.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ShivS »

Money scene is not that bad - last decade was much harder. We had 8 major acquisition programs (Rafale, S400, Hercules, Globemaster, Apache, Su 30, Tejas and Chinook) and the Mirage and MIG 29 modernisations.

In the next 8 years there are only 2 committed programs - the Tejas Mk1A and the Airbus. 3 highly likely programs in SU30 upgrade, which is likely to roll into the 30s and the AWACS and refueller programs.

If you like can give you rough estimates but one largish fighter acquisition program can be funded.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

IAF to start upgrading Rafale fighter fleet from January 2022.

Having already received around 30 Rafale combat aircraft from France, the Indian Air Force would start upgrading its fleet of French-origin fighters from January 2022, with India specific enhancements.

"A high-level team of Indian Air Force officers is in France to evaluate the performance of the testbed aircraft with tail number RB-008 at the Istres airbase there. The aircraft has been equipped with all the India Specific Enhancements agreed upon between the two sides in the 2016 contract," government sources told ANI.

Once the enhancements are approved and accepted by the IAF, the upgrade is planned to be started from January next year onwards making the Indian planes more capable," they said. The India specific enhancements would include integration of highly capable missiles, low band jammers and satellite communication systems as per Indian requirements.

India has already received around 30 of these planes and three more of them would be arriving in the country on December 7-8.

As per the contract schedule, sources in the Air Force said kits would be brought to India from France and every month, three to four Indian rafales would be upgraded to the ISE standards. The last aircraft to arrive in India from France would be the RB-008 named after the former air force chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria (retd) who played a crucial role as the Deputy Chief to sign the contract worth over Rs 60,000 crore with France under a government to government deal. The upgrade of the aircraft would be carried out at the Ambala Air Force Station which is the first base of the plane in the country.

The Indian Air Force has also started the training of its pilots on the aircraft within the country itself after training its personnel in France. Once inducted fully, the fleet would have eight twin-seater trainer planes with tail numbers in the RB series while 28 single-seaters with BS tail number series.

As per the contract schedule, sources in the Air Force said kits would be brought to India from France and every month, three to four Indian rafales would be upgraded to the ISE standards.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by vivek_ahuja »

AkshaySG wrote:90 more birds lol. That total (90+36) would be higher than the MMRCA demand of 114

In a world where to get even 36 Rafales we had to wrangle with the budget and contract for ages to find a acceptable solution on what planet does anyone think we can get 90 of them even it's a "phased" induction. Which if we're being honest most inductions already are.

Next 15 months are probably make or break for extra Rafales, We may end up ordering 36 more but if we don't I doubt the govt will be interested in potentially risky deals like this close to '24 elections
I think we are far beyond the point of no return with the Rafale acquisition. The money to acquire the 36 + infrastructure is already spent. Now to NOT acquire more Rafales is the actual foolish decision (harkening back to the bad decisions to limit the Mirage 2000 numbers in the 1980s).

This is the sunk-cost situation we are dealing with, and I suspect this is what the IAF wanted all along. Once the 36 birds are in, there is immense pressure on the GoI to get additional Rafales to make the entire deal financially worthwhile for the long term.

Of course, the GoI can surprise us all by taking the shotgun and blowing their own toes off. They might just limit the IAF to 36 Rafales. There is unfortunate precedence for this with the M2K saga.

I consider myself an ardent opposer of the Rafale deal, given where we were headed with the LCA and AMCA, and the need to spend money to upgrade the Su-30 with actually usable war weapons instead of the 1980s Soviet weapons. But Rafale is here now and has its foot through the door into the IAF plans. So we have been defeated and must accept this reality.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by nachiket »

vivek_ahuja wrote: I think we are far beyond the point of no return with the Rafale acquisition. The money to acquire the 36 + infrastructure is already spent. Now to NOT acquire more Rafales is the actual foolish decision (harkening back to the bad decisions to limit the Mirage 2000 numbers in the 1980s).
This was true from the moment the deal was announced. Buying only 2 squadrons of an expensive and completely new type (which requires its own separate weapons suite not common with most of the IAF fleet) made zero sense especially looking at the financial situation the country was in at the time. However if it was financially and politically feasible to acquire more Rafales I think the govt. would have done it by now. We may be beyond the point of no return in a different sense in that no further Rafale orders are possible any more and the IAF will have to make do with what they have.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 89186?s=20 ---> Future IAF fighter-pilots to be equipped with Electronic Flight Bags (EFB) to give them state-of the art mission and flight planning capabilities. Examples include FlightSphere based on Microsoft Surface tab series.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:
Rakesh wrote:...
Meanwhile, our MRFA/MMRCA deal is still nowhere. Even an additional order of 36 is yet to be seen. Now we cant even book production slots in the near term
Not entirely true Chinmay-ji.

The deal signed is for the F4 variant, which is still in the works. There is no F4 variant that exists. First deliveries are expected only in post 2026.

If we sign a deal now for additional Rafales, it will be for the F3R variant. But delay it post 2022 and then the IAF will get slotted behind UAE.

It is only Greece and Egypt (and perhaps Qatar) that have orders that are on the manufacturing line at Merginac right now. These nations already have got Rafales in their inventory and deliveries are ongoing. The window for opportunity (2022) is there, but it is a very small window. The real question to ask is does the Government have the political will to sign a deal for additional Rafales in 2022? That's what remains to be seen. Post 2022 and the deliveries will get pushed back. At that point, it will be too late.

And it will have to be a significant order, i.e. 90 birds --> 54 for the Air Force and 36 for the Navy. Split the CAPEX costs between the two services. 90 additional birds will bring the total number to 126. Apart from the arresting gear on the Rafale M, it is virtually identical to the Rafale C. If the Navy's MiG-29Ks can serve in Ladakh, why not the Rafale M? By the way, the Rafale M is arriving in India next month for ski jump flight tests.

With jointmanship being the buzz word in the MoD right now and the new Navy Chief - Admiral Hari Kumar - being one of the architects of the joint theatre commands, this may be something that might work. Lets see.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sumeet »

Rakesh, why do you think that political will is an issue ? This is matter of national security, clowns in UPA and opposition with pea sized brains not looking beyond their nose lengths should not be let to interfere and hinder our national security.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:The window for opportunity (2022) is there, but it is a very small window. The real question to ask is does the Government have the political will to sign a deal for additional Rafales in 2022? That's what remains to be seen. Post 2022 and the deliveries will get pushed back. At that point, it will be too late.
....With jointmanship being the buzz word in the MoD right now and the new Navy Chief - Admiral Hari Kumar - being one of the architects of the joint theatre commands, this may be something that might work. Lets see.
In some ways Rakesh saar, I hope it doesn't work! I like the Rafale mind you, but at this point I'm not sure it is worth investing that much in it. Post 2035, its potency A2A and A2G, will become questionable. And if we want to keep it competitive, it will need an insanely expensive MLU (we all know how expensive french upgrades are!). This is an extremely expensive investment for a 4.5 gen platform that will keep losing its edge vs. newer designs. IOWs, it will stop being viable as IAF's silver bullet, top-end fighter.
Get another 36 and be done with it. That should be enough to bide by and keep the edge till 5G fighters start coming in, and they will post 2030. Beef up the numbers with Tejas Mk1a and mk2 as the lines stabilize circa 2026. If a more powerful edge is needed earlier, say around 2030, we can then either invest in another smallish silver bullet force - more mature Pakfa or who knows, the JSF. Maybe even the AMCA, if it is available.
And yes, upgrade the MKI - make it all it can be (Growlerski, brahmos, R-37, AESA ityadi).
In the interim (till 2026), continue to plug the holes - buy whatever airframes you can that match existing inventory, and can be quickly inducted. esp. MiG-29 and possibly, M2K (although the former is far more attractive in terms of support, and uber upgrades).
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Sumeet wrote:Rakesh, why do you think that political will is an issue ? This is matter of national security, clowns in UPA and opposition with pea sized brains not looking beyond their nose lengths should not be let to interfere and hinder our national security.
usa is behind the campaign against Rafale. Yuva neta and media were commanded by them to create a ruckus on Rafale acquisition. usa wants us to be under their thumb by only buying anglo weapons so they can cripple us with sanctions whenever they want. So they created caatsa to plug acquision of Russian wares and rahul and media against French wares as the French don't sanction us anymore. After '98 Shakti tests President Jacques Chirac had wholeheartedly supported us.

Seeing modi got cold shouldered by biden gang during usa visit he had to go to vatican exactly at same time when catholic biden was there and extend invitation to their chief clergy so biden softens towards us.

Rafale will never be ordered again. MRFA is just a bone we have for west to keep them hoping. But will never be bought.

Even in UP Yogi has to please anglo powers so he has set up the factory of oldest model webley scott revolvers.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Did I just see my name on the EFB? So much for trying to be discreet ;)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

In 20 years from now, we will be discussing on BRF, India getting some used Rafale jets from UAE to shore up squadron strength while waiting for AMCA/TEDBF/MFRA/WHATEVER... ?

I sincerely hope not !
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Haridas »

Cyrano wrote:In 20 years from now, we will be discussing on BRF, India getting some used Rafale jets from UAE to shore up squadron strength while waiting for AMCA/TEDBF/MFRA/WHATEVER... ?

I sincerely hope not !
Man is defeated in mind, such defeatist people will be defeated in battle.

You are creating defeatist "mahoul", is that purposefool ?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Sumeet wrote:Rakesh, why do you think that political will is an issue ? This is matter of national security, clowns in UPA and opposition with pea sized brains not looking beyond their nose lengths should not be let to interfere and hinder our national security.
Sumeet, my apologies for the delay in replying to you.

I am concerned that might go the way of the Mirage 2000/MiG-29 acquisition of the 80s.

In the 1980s, politicians made a massive blunder in not following through with the screwdrivergiri order of 110 Mirage 2000s. Our politicians thought it would be better to go in for the MiG-29 which had a cheaper unit cost. They then ordered a "neither-here-nor-three" three squadrons worth of the MiG-29 in the 1980s. Large numbers of either one would have resulted in - over time - a timely retirement of the MiG-21.

In the early 2000s, politicians then made blunder #2 in not giving the IAF the screwdrivergiri order of 126 Mirage 2000-5s. That resulted in the MMRCA tamasha which is still continuing to this day. Again, this order would have resulted in much-earlier retirement of the MiG-21 and also there would have been no Rafale acquisition either.

Now in 2021, neither the Mirage 2000 or the MiG-29 will be viable for the next four decades. A modern 4+ generation fighter is needed, right alongside the Tejas MWF. But will our politicians take the decision in a timely manner? An order of 'X' number of Rafales would be pointless, if that order comes after the UAE order. First deliveries of 80 Rafales to the UAEAF will occur sometime in 2026/2027, as the F4 variant is still under testing and validation. So the window of opportunity exists, but IMVHO it is really a very small window. Acquire the exact same spec - the F3R(I) variant - and upgrade them at a later stage.

The issue is that we spent upwards of $1 billion in base infrastructure and support for the Rafale. Financial investments in simulators, spares, weapons, India Specific Enhancements, etc have also been made. All costs different from the bare unit cost of the aircraft. To now invest in a whole other MRFA - even if it is just another 36 aircraft - would be financially tragic. So additional Rafales - even if it is only another 36 aircraft - would capitalize on that investment. Otherwise these aircraft should have never been bought in the first place.

I am hoping the Rafale M sails through the technical trials in Goa next month. Not that I am against the TEDBF and I would rather see TEDBF over the Rafale M, but if the Navy is insisting on a phoren carrier borne fighter, then it is pointless to go in for a stand alone purchase of the F-18SH. I am cautiously optimistic that the Navy has decided to go in for whatever aircraft the IAF decides in the MRFA contest, because it will be basically down to just two aircraft - the F-18SH and the Rafale.

And as I mentioned earlier, the Rafale M is virtually identical - apart from the arresting gear - to the Rafale C. If the Navy can operate the MiG-29K in Ladakh, there should be no reason why the Rafale M cannot do the same. Greater number of airframes that are available, greatly increases the options available and helps with attrition in combat. A 75% fleet guarantee of 36 Rafales - as negotiated in the contract - is equal to 27 airframes. Another 36 Rafales for the IAF, will bring that number to 54 airframes available at any given time. If the balloon goes up with China, the IAF would be better served with 54 airframes than 27.

I take hope in KaranM's post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&p=2525813#p2525813
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:In some ways Rakesh saar, I hope it doesn't work! I like the Rafale mind you, but at this point I'm not sure it is worth investing that much in it. Post 2035, its potency A2A and A2G, will become questionable. And if we want to keep it competitive, it will need an insanely expensive MLU (we all know how expensive french upgrades are!). This is an extremely expensive investment for a 4.5 gen platform that will keep losing its edge vs. newer designs. IOWs, it will stop being viable as IAF's silver bullet, top-end fighter.
1) The IAF views the Rafale as one of the key fighters to serve for the next four decades. 2035 is a mere 13 years away. The Rafale will not be the only silver bullet either. The upgraded Rambha will be there. The Mk2 will be there. The Mk1A will also be there. All fourth generation fighters. I am not even going to bring AMCA into the mix - that is years away. Both the PLAN and the PAF are also still continuing with the 4+ generation programs. The former has made significant investments in 5+ generation programs, but the bulk of the fleet will largely remain 4+ generation.

2) With regards to the MLU upgrades, it will be expensive. No argument there. With their industrial base being smaller, everything has a higher cost. When piglets had to be eliminated on the top of Tiger Hill in 1999, why was the cheaper MiG-29 not used? Nobody complained about upgrade costs when the Mirage 2000I/TI successfully eliminated targets at Balakot in 2019. I keep reading $5 Trillion economy within this decade. Is money the real issue or is it lack of perspective planning? If we want X capability - to exploit the aircraft - then we will have to cough up the cash. Now that investment has been made in the aircraft, it is prudent to upgrade them and keep them up to date. Otherwise, these aircraft should have never been bought in the first place.
Cain Marko wrote:Get another 36 and be done with it. That should be enough to bide by and keep the edge till 5G fighters start coming in, and they will post 2030. Beef up the numbers with Tejas Mk1a and mk2 as the lines stabilize circa 2026. If a more powerful edge is needed earlier, say around 2030, we can then either invest in another smallish silver bullet force - more mature Pakfa or who knows, the JSF. Maybe even the AMCA, if it is available.
Whether we get 36 additional Rafales or more, these birds will have to be upgraded. $$$ will have to spent. As much as I would like to see additional Mk1As, I doubt the IAF would want to invest any more scare CAPEX they have into it, unless the budget is increased. It will have to be the Mk2/MWF - another fourth generation fighter. Upgrading the Rambha would be a better use of CAPEX than acquiring the Su-57 or the Su-75. The money invested in the latter would be better spent on the AMCA program.

Same is true with the JSF aka F-35. And apart from diverting funds away from the AMCA program, India would be wary to not touch an American fighter with a 10 foot pole. During the SE fighter contest, I thought a FACO line in India would be a great idea for the F-35. But with CAATSA, not anymore. Great kit, but very unreliable country. Additional CH-47s or MH-60Rs would be nice, but keep the relationship as transactional as it can be made. No alliance with or reliance on America. Lets not get our feet any deeper than it already is.
Cain Marko wrote:And yes, upgrade the MKI - make it all it can be (Growlerski, brahmos, R-37, AESA ityadi). In the interim (till 2026), continue to plug the holes - buy whatever airframes you can that match existing inventory, and can be quickly inducted. esp. MiG-29 and possibly, M2K (although the former is far more attractive in terms of support, and uber upgrades).
Sirjee, as you are well aware...the Rambha is a fourth generation fighter :)

If we are going to upgrade one fourth generation (which is long overdue for the Rambha), then why not another? I do understand your concern, about the upgrades for the Rafale being expensive. And from a pure upgradation perspective, the Rambha offers what the Rafale will never do - customization with Indian sensors and weapons. But that is French maal for you. It is expensive and boutique. The IAF made that choice and it will have to live with it.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cyrano »

Hope MoD & IAF carefully analyse what UAE is getting for 19B$ >> 80 F4 aircraft + 12 Caracal helis seems like they negotiated quite well.

Moreover, with volumes increasing, Dassault's production costs will decrease in future. But with more orders now, any new orders from India will take them longer to deliver.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale with India Specific Enhancements
https://www.sps-aviation.com/story/?id= ... hancements
Nov 2021

By Air Marshal B.K. Pandey (Retd)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Squadron patches from No 101 Falcons Squadron - the second Rafale squadron which is based at Hasimara AFS - have been released.

Take special note of the squadron patch at the bottom right, which honours all the previous aircraft that served in the Squadron. Right of the patch (from top) is the T-6 Harvard, the Supermarine Spitfire and the de Havilland Vampire. Left of the patch (from top) is the Dassault Rafale, the MiG-21M and the Sukhoi Su-7. A well designed patch for history watchers.

For newbies, patches do not equal to squadron insignias. Patches are just that, patches and worn on the shoulders of pilots who fly in the squadron. The squadron insignia is much more clearer and aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 41802?s=20 ---> ‘Seek & Destroy’ - Falcons No. 101 Squadron.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

When will India get remaining Rafale jets? IAF Chief provides a timeline
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 32926.html
18 Dec 2021
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:The Chief himself is standing next to his son in the first picture. If there was any risk, he would have advised against taking pictures.

There is really nothing in those pictures of the Rafale that will raise any alarms. Hardened air shelters of the Indian Air Force have even come up in Bollywood movies, nothing secretive there.
Like which Bollywood movie has hardened air shelter?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Haridas wrote:Like which Bollywood movie has hardened air shelter?
The movie Border, at the very beginning. See below from 0:55 to 1:24.

Totally unrelated, but this move is pure melodramatic. So unreal.

Link to the video ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-_upe8dfI0

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/jai_jaggi/status/14 ... 18464?s=20 ---> Belly of the Beast! IAF Dassault Rafale during the Air Force Day Parade.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Avinandan »

I always wonder about conformal hard points.
Why didn't France opt for them ?

Placed additional questions on conformal hardpoints in newbie thread :-
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7235&start=200#p2524640
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Cannot verify this tweet, but posting it FWIW....

https://twitter.com/OsintUpdates/status ... 14852?s=20 ---> India imposed fine on Rafale manufacturer Dassault Aviation for delaying the implementation of offset obligations. The penalty will come from the €185 million bank guarantee funded by Dassault Aviation as a safeguard against contractual violations.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Guess the above tweet is true :)

India fines French firm Dassault Aviation over offset delays
https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... et-delays/
20 Dec 2021
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

I am near certain that this fine is for Safran not fulfilling her contractual obligations.

A very good move by the GOI and the timing is also nice.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

MBDA fined for not fulfilling Rafale deal offsets

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india ... 52091.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafale_deal_controversy

There are separate offsets agreements with Dassault (planes, integration), MBDA (missiles), Safran (engines), etc. They equate to 50% of contract and have to be fulfilled/spread over 7 years with an initial 3 year grace period.

It is a 5% fine on shortfall for the first year for MBDA. Or less than 1 milllion euro. Wiki suggests weapons package is 710 million euro. Which assuming equal spread means that MBDA fulfilled ~30 million euro out of ~50 million euro annual offset commitment and was fined accordingly. MBDA disagrees with this - it has filed a protest. Time will tell if it has any case/ grounds (eg offsets that were not counted as eligible, issue on Indian side such as approval pending with GoI etc) or if protest will be dismissed.

It is unclear to me whether earlier reports of Dassault filed for not fulfilling offsets also are valid or are garbled references to MBDA. I would assume that Dassault fined means Dassault fined. I suspect Safran would have challenges - back in 2019, they wanted to invest in Kaveri 250 million of their 500 million offsets and asked DRDO to pay another 500 million on top to get a M88 core in Kaveri. DRDO, whose entire spend on Kaveri was 250 million, refused to go for the deal. In any case any MRO setup shoul help, and I think Safran invested 36 million or so in a plant in Hyderabad to make parts for LEAP. It's possible that RM Rajnath Singhs recent announcement that Safran plans to make an engine in india also comes of an eye on offsets
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 071050.cms

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/20 ... et-delays/

One common complaint about the French defense companies in this context is that they were not cooperating in the transfer of technology to DRDO.
"The MoD source said French businesses have been claiming the Indian firms who were expecting to receive technology transfers do not meet the necessary core competencies." If the fines are related to this, I think the protest will be dismissed
Last edited by Barath on 22 Dec 2021 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Barath »

Avinandan wrote:I always wonder about conformal hard points.
Why didn't France opt for them ?
Rafale does have conformal fuel tanks - they flew back in June 2001

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/s ... fox3_2.pdf
https://twitter.com/amitraaz/status/1189555726135377922
https://www.flightglobal.com/dassault-r ... 37.article
https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-milit ... %82%C2%B4s

5750 l internal tanks , 5 wet hardpoints, with 1250l supersonic tanks (drop), and 2000 l drop tanks on centerline/innerwing stations, + A2A refueling probe makes for a lot of fuel. But the link also mentions 2x 1150 l CFT on upper wing fuselage blend with supposed low impact on aircraft handling an which can be assembled or removed in 2 hours. It's not clear if the CFT are supersonic qualified; the twitter article suggests that it was evaluated for supersonic speeds while one of the forum comments was that it limits to subsonic speed, (the validity of that comment is unclear; but then again evaluated doesn't mean certified)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Avinandan »

^^ Apologies Barath Saar.
Perhaps I was not clear. I was particularly asking about under body semi recessed hardpoints ( like in Eurofighter and planned in KFX Fighter).

I feel these are low hanging fruits that all 4+ gen fighters should strive to achieve to improve RCS and reduce drag.

Images for reference
Image
Courtesy : Airliners.net

Image
Courtesy: Quora

Placing my newbie questions here as well :-

1) What is the average drag percentage benefit by using Conformal Hardpoints e.g. Eurofighter, KFX ? Is it worth it ?

2) What is the effort for designing and implementing the Conformal hardpoints for an existing production run aircrafts e.g. Rafale, LCA Mk1.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Pratyush wrote:90 additional birds means the total number to 126. Which is what the original number was planned to be.
Original MMRCA was 126+ option to buy 63 more later = 189 being the final number.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

The tentacles of King Khan reach far and they reach deep..

At Americas’ Mercy: Why France’s ‘Highly Prized’ Rafale Fighter Jets Are Dependent On US Approvals For Their Export
According to the French publication La Tribune, a contract between Cairo and Paris to sell 12 Rafale jet fighters to Egypt had been stalled because the US refused to export a cruise missile component that was part of the fighter plane. The report had surfaced in February of 2018.

The delay in the sale, according to French insiders quoted by the paper, was due to a shortfall of the American component of the SCALP missiles, not a funding issue as had been the case in the past owing to the precarious economic situation in Egypt. The Egyptians were reluctant to buy the aircraft without these advanced SCALP missiles.

...

Although the French fighter Mirage 2000’s older weaponry, such as the MICA medium-range and Magic II air-to-air missiles, were developed in France, Rafale’s new generation of armaments, such as the SCALP missile and Meteor air-to-air missile, were developed in other countries as part of bigger programs.

This was due to their complexity, which made it difficult for any single European country’s relatively modest defense sector to create them.

...

French Defense Minister Florence Parly had then stated in response: “We are at the mercy of the Americans when our equipment is concerned.”

...

During his state visit to Washington in April 2018, French President Emmanuel Macron reportedly tried to persuade his then-American counterpart, Donald Trump, to give clearance for the missile component. However, no breakthrough was achieved.

...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Avinandan wrote:^^ Apologies Barath Saar.
Perhaps I was not clear. I was particularly asking about under body semi recessed hardpoints ( like in Eurofighter and planned in KFX Fighter).

I feel these are low hanging fruits that all 4+ gen fighters should strive to achieve to improve RCS and reduce drag.
.
Agreed. I was hoping to see them at least on tedbf. Btw, rafale can carry 4 x AAM semi recessed underbelly.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Avinandan »

Where Saar. Do you have any sample load-out pics ?

This typical loadout still need the pylons.
Link
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