VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Rakesh
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ArjunPandit wrote:anyone can have a rafale(provided they can afford to)..all boils down to who uses it and how ..they can know all about the weaknesses of rafale but still on that day they dont know..its an old game...but yes american do it not just for peace but also for freedom, liberty and democracy and in the interests of their allies
America does it for influence and for business. Spare us the freedom and liberty talk. Please.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

sarcasm tha sir! not on you but on the high talking americans
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

Again - stop with defending your lobbies! Defend swadeshi!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ldev »

Rakesh wrote:
ldev wrote:The US ensures that it's allies retain a qualitative edge when similar weapons are supplied e.g. Egypt never got either the AMRAAM or JASSM on it's F-16s inspite of having the 4th largest F-16 fleet in the world to ensure that Israel would retain it's qualitative edge over Egypt. Numerous other examples of this policy, the latest being those countries which the US has offered to sell the F-35. US policy is to ensure that it's allies will always retain a technology advantage vs their rivals/enemies.

In contrast France sells equipment to those who can pay with little sensitivity regarding the impact of their subsequent sales on their earlier customers.

French sales are guided by money/funding to keep their domestic military industrial complex going.
I never brought up Egypt, but rather Turkey and Greece. They both have AMRAAMs. So the qualitative edge lecture you are now giving is a moot point. And the Saudis and the UAE also have AMRAAMs in their inventory. Pakistan has the AMRAAM and if we end up purchasing an American plane, we will get the AMRAAM as well.

And if you want to talk about the qualitative edge, then the IAF Rafale (barring the under development F4 variant) is the most advanced Rafale variant of all Rafales currently in service. A fact confirmed by the Indian Air Force. Like all export Rafales, the only missile she cannot fire is the ASMP-A air launched nuclear missile. That is reserved for the French onlee.

And America has never had allies, but only poodles. We in India are seeing the benefits of the relationship i.e. regular CAATSA reminders.
Turkey and Greece are both NATO members so both got equivalent munitions e.g. AMRAMM, but Turkey because of it's location (bulwark against the southern flank of the former USSR) and size of it's armed forces (2nd largest in NATO) always was the more important. So it was part of the F-35 program until Sultan Erdogan started playing big time politics by ordering the S-400. Now it is out. Will Greece eventually get the F-35 now that Turkey is out or is Turkey still far too important to the US for Greece to get the F-35? Time will tell.

As far as US arms to India & Pakistan are concerned the big change in the last 2 years is the US recognizing the China threat. And hence going forward the level of US technology sold to India will be in recognition of the China threat rather than the historical basis which was India-Pakistan technological parity.

AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong), the Qatari Rafales, also the F3R standard, have the same weapons package as India.
Last edited by ldev on 29 Jul 2021 23:33, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by brar_w »

Greece has submitted a LOR to start the F-35 FMS process. They will likely become an operator towards the end of the decade. Yes they are both NATO allies so despite their internal rivalry everyone in NATO would have sold to both. France is the same as everyone else. They are looking at their own interests as is expected (as opposed to interests of their buyers which isn't their headache). Qatar put a substantial order for the Rafale, if it wants to co-train with Turkey (a NATO member) then I don't think France will have many objections privately. Will Turkey buy Rafales? I doubt it in the short term, but if Erdogan changes tune, or is replaced then it could happen. Before they entered into a spat with France, France was working on missile defense tech with them.
Last edited by brar_w on 29 Jul 2021 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:Greece has submitted a LOR to start the F-35 FMS process. They will likely become an operator towards the end of the decade. Yes they are both NATO allies so despite their internal rivalry everyone in NATO would have sold to both. France is the same as everyone else. They are looking at their own interests as is expected (as opposed to interests of their buyers which isn't their headache).
Thanks, you are much more clued onto the F-35 process. I was not aware of the Greek LOR.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

brar_w wrote:Greece has submitted a LOR to start the F-35 FMS process. They will likely become an operator towards the end of the decade. Yes they are both NATO allies so despite their internal rivalry everyone in NATO would have sold to both. France is the same as everyone else. They are looking at their own interests as is expected (as opposed to interests of their buyers which isn't their headache). Qatar put a substantial order for the Rafale, if it wants to co-train with Turkey (a NATO member) then I don't think France will have many objections privately. Will Turkey buy Rafales? I doubt it in the short term, but if Erdogan changes tune, or is replaced then it could happen. Before they entered into a spat with France, France was working on missile defense tech with them.
Thank you brar for that highlighted part. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

ldev wrote:Turkey and Greece are both NATO members so both got equivalent munitions e.g. AMRAMM, but Turkey because of it's location (bulwark against the southern flank of the former USSR) and size of it's armed forces (2nd largest in NATO) always was the more important. So it was part of the F-35 program until Sultan Erdogan started playing big time politics by ordering the S-400. Now it is out. Will Greece eventually get the F-35 now that Turkey is out or is Turkey still far too important to the US for Greece to get the F-35? Time will tell.

As far as US arms to India & Pakistan are concerned the big change in the last 2 years is the US recognizing the China threat. And hence going forward the level of US technology sold to India will be in recognition of the China threat rather than the historical basis which was India-Pakistan technological parity.
Since everyone is selling arms to anyone who can afford it - as you have indicated above - it is nothing that is overtly concerning. I believe PAF pilots have flown UAE Mirage 2000s and even the Qatari ones. That still did not stop the IAF from effectively using the platform at Kargil in 1999 and at Balakot in 2019. Whatever exposure, the PAF might have to the Rafale will have little utility to them in times of conflict. In fact, they will soon realize that they are vastly outgunned. They will obviously come up with counters to the Rafale, but it will only delay the inevitable in an all out air war against the IAF.

It was this very exposure to the Mirage 2000s of the Middle East air forces, that forced the PAF to advise her retaliation strike force to stay away from IAF Mirage 2000s during Operation Swift Retort. They wanted a Su-30MKI kill really badly (which they never got), but were apprehensive of engaging the Mirage 2000. A JF-17 pilot said the same thing at an interview. And the Rafale is a lot more advanced than the Mirage 2000. They will not prevail and they will soon realize it, if not already. But PAF - being true to form - will blow the trumpet horn and claim that that they know all the Rafale's secrets. Lying and deceit comes natural to them.
ldev wrote:AFAIK (correct me if I am wrong), the Qatari Rafales, also the F3R standard, have the same weapons package as India.
The ISE upgrades are unique to India alone. It is these upgrades that make the IAF state, that the Indian Rafale is the most advanced Rafale currently in service. When the F4 variant arrives on the scene, the Indian Rafale will no longer be the most advanced variant. The F4 variant is the one on offer to India for the 114 MRFA deal.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Flying & Fighting in the JF-17 Thunder: Interview with Pakistan Air Force fighter pilot
https://hushkit.net/2019/07/19/flying-f ... ter-pilot/
19 July 2019
Q.Which threat aircraft is most challenging and why? How confident do you against the M2000 and MiG-29?

A. “Definitely the Su-30 is the most difficult aircraft in terms of current Indian Air Force inventory but we regularly fly against the F-16 and more importantly AMRAAM, so Adder and Alamo seem less worrisome (smily face). Mirage with MICA is definitely a real threat.”
If he finds Mirage 2000 with MICA a real threat, he will think twice before entering the airspace when Rafale is armed with Meteor.

And when SFDR and Astra Mk2 come on the scene, he will be sweating :)

This interview was post Balakot.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ldev »

brar_w wrote:Will Turkey buy Rafales? I doubt it in the short term, but if Erdogan changes tune, or is replaced then it could happen. Before they entered into a spat with France, France was working on missile defense tech with them.
I thought it would be the other way round i.e. if Erodogan stays Turkey is more likely to buy Rafales, because it is out of the F-35 program and for parity with Greece. But if Erdogan is replaced then Turkey is likely to get back into the F-35 program.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ArjunPandit »

Rakesh wrote:Since everyone is selling arms to anyone who can afford it - as you have indicated above - it is nothing that is overtly concerning. I believe PAF pilots have flown UAE Mirage 2000s and even the Qatari ones. That still did not stop the IAF from effectively using the platform at Kargil in 1999 and at Balakot in 2019. Whatever exposure, the PAF might have to the Rafale will have little utility to them in times of conflict. In fact, they will soon realize that they are vastly outgunned. They will obviously come up with counters to the Rafale, but it will only delay the inevitable in an all out air war against the IAF.

It was this very exposure to the Mirage 2000s of the Middle East air forces, that forced the PAF to advise her retaliation strike force to stay away from IAF Mirage 2000s during Operation Swift Retort. They wanted a Su-30MKI kill really badly (which they never got), but were apprehensive of engaging the Mirage 2000. A JF-17 pilot said the same thing at an interview. And the Rafale is a lot more advanced than the Mirage 2000. They will not prevail and they will soon realize it, if not already. But PAF - being true to form - will blow the trumpet horn and claim that that they know all the Rafale's secrets. Lying and deceit comes natural to them.
I didnt see the hushkit interview earlier, but if that is the case then a loaded tejas is a much bigger threat to paxis than rafale ....as rafale might be held back for chinese or be used to lure in/provide top cover and will be much more in no eventually and most importantly they will not have any exposure to the true capability

as for su 30, as has been mentioned fully, they even didnt engage su 30 properly too..they fired amraams at Dmax and ran away...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

The PAF will not prevail over the IAF...with or without Rafale. We will obviously take losses, but this is war...not a lazy Sunday afternoon walk through a rose park.

ldev's concern is quite frankly not grounded in any merit. NaPakis will obviously be gleefully celebrating. Let them have their joy & fun. The more the PAF knows about the Rafale, the more they will realize that they will lose. The IAF may likely have concerns over Qatari Rafales exercising with Pakistan, because it may take away the element of surprise and edge off....but it will not change the overall outcome.

The only option is to develop your own plane i.e. Tejas, ORCA, AMCA, etc. But then again, that closes the door for 114 MRFA :mrgreen: But even developing your own plane is causing takleef to a few on BRF. We are told that it would be better to invest in the cheapest and widely exported fourth generation fighter in existence i.e. F-16.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

Admiral sahab - you're fighting hallucinations. F-16 is a non-starter. But IAF will prevail - even if it flies bisons because of superior training and tactics. A couple of PAF's pilots may score victories but overall the fight will be tilted in India's favor.

Salaam to your support of swadeshi! That is the only way India will survive in the long run. Pakistan is a mere distraction. China is the real fight - always has been.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:...

The only option is to develop your own plane i.e. Tejas, ORCA, AMCA, etc. ...
+1. It has been known for some time now but the geopolitical reality (russian decline, chinese rise) has never been stark as earlier. Plus our own increasing confidence might make it happen in the near future.

IMHO We need to have developing our own engine as the single most priority No. 1. According it equal or even higher importance as making the AMCA/TEDBF.

Once we manage to make our own aircraft engine and making versions of it, Light, Medium, Heavy fighters are all within our own design and manufacturing capabilities (including sensors and armament). Add to it our huge civilian market too. The savings would be easily 100+ billion plus (in the future decades).

It will directly raise the costs exponentially for Pakis four fathers to support their munna and indirectly our own money (via imports) will not be used as aid to the jihadis.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

+108 Manish. We really need to develop our own engine...but that is at least a decade away. I am hoping the IAF's vision for AMCA comes through - a local turbofan.

Even exporting our own plane will cause the same issue. Tomorrow if we sell Tejas with Uttam to Sri Lanka or to Malaysia or to Bangladesh, what is the guarantee that these countries are not going to train with the PAF at some multi-nation exercise in the future? But that is not going to make IAF Tejas useless in a future conflict. There are tactics and strategies for every scenario that will be put into practise.

This childish logic that Qatari Rafales are training with the PAF, so the IAF Rafales are now naked...is quite frankly laughable. By that line of thinking, the PAF should be scared because the IAF knows all about the F-16 Block 50/52, thanks to the Singapore Air Force that visits India every year with their F-16 Block 50/52s. But that will not stop the PAF from employing their most advanced fighter in a future conflict against India. The PAF will have a few aces up their sleeve and the IAF will have the same. But in the larger context, there is no plausible scenario...in which the PAF will achieve victory. Winning an air battle or two is not equal to winning the war.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

We (GOI/IAF/MOD/DRDO) cannot pay lip service to the turbofan development. It is the missing piece in the Indian MIC. It is something so vital for national security that stealing tech should be resorted to in order to get this off the ground quickly. Failure to recognize its importance will keep India weak and poor.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:But even developing your own plane is causing takleef to a few on BRF. We are told that it would be better to invest in the cheapest and widely exported fourth generation fighter in existence i.e. F-16.
Saar can i myself pleej hereby and humbly make due request to invest in cheapest, for export, fifth generation phyter in non existence?. It is called su75 checkmate, it is batchmate of su57 wonlee.

More seriously, as Vivek points out, GOI needs to get a Desi turbofan going on a war footing. Or at least base an interim tedbf on existing Kaveri.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Imagine if similar to JFKs clarion call for the american Moon landing project, PM Modi ji calls for the Indian developed Jet engine as a project of national importance and it happens.. his legacy in our national development history would be set (not that he seems to crave it).

Of course given the nature of our democracy there is the possibility that the other party might be in power putting their leader name for the credit, but still ultimately is the nation which would have benefited, hugely!

But back to the Rafale. Do we have a official Indian name for it yet? Like Vajra for it's older brother...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by m_saini »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 9528103937
News Report: IAF has begun the necessary paperwork for the acquisition of another 36 Rafale omni-role fighters from France.
Will take total to 72.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Thank you m_saini.

If this is the case, it should be identical to the first batch. The F4 variant is what is on offer I believe for the 114 MRFA deal, but will not be ready in the time manner the IAF wants. Wolfpack is usually right on his reporting, so his tweet will have some foundation. But just because the IAF is reportedly preparing the paperwork for another 36 Rafales, it is not anywhere close to being set in stone. We have gone down this path before:-

1) Production line for 150 Mirage 2000s in the 1980s, but got cancelled due to the MiG-29.

2) Production line for 126 Mirage 2000s in 2001, but got cancelled thanks to the Tehelka scam.

But Dassault delivering 36 Rafales in 1.5 years (July 2020 - Jan 2022) has impressed the IAF. And this from a production line at Merignac, France that churns out barely 11 Rafales a year…but reportedly has a capacity to go up to 33 birds. Would be nice to know how they managed to deliver this many Rafales, especially with supplier issues during COVID.

We are at 100 pages of this thread. Will continue in this thread, until some new development takes place. Then we can open a new thread. From 2001 to 2021…a 20 year saga (and still continuing) to get 100+ 4th generation phoren fighters. Classic example of a broken procurement system. But there is a silver lining in this mess - at this stage, with 83 Mk1As coming…it makes little sense to go in for yet another 4th generation fighter, especially with Tejas Mk2 on the horizon (even though it may be delayed). So I will be overjoyed if the 114 MRFA deal will get canceled as a result. Truly, a lungi dance moment.

If another 36 Rafales do come, the MRFA acquisition is over as a fourth generation contest. There has to be a game changer (in capability and overall value of the deal) among the other contestants in the MRFA. And since there is no money for 114 birds, what exactly would be the point in ordering 36 of another type? Both the two new units will be located at Ambala and Hasimara as their home base - to complement the units (No 17 and No 101) that are there right now - but should be able to operate from any air base when operationally required.

And if another 36 Rafales do come, it will be a testament to the Govt (and to the man himself…PM Modi) for resisting both domestic and foreign interference in the Rafale deal and forging ahead regardless. It is not easy to walk this tightrope of multipolar alignment and also when China is trying to kick down the door. Lesson to learn here - for future governments and foreign policy analysts - is that even superpowers can be effectively managed. Under this Govt, India sings her own tune and India's rise must be managed by India alone.

And if another 36 Rafales do come, India’s strategic partner will want his pound of flesh. But there are more contests and deals to be won. But one nation cannot win everything. It should not and must not work that way. That is the whole point of being a partner, to understand each other and work with each other. Let’s see how this plays out. Keeping my fingers crossed and hoping that the 114 MRFA deal is cancelled.

New Promise (although I never came through on the last one!) ----> If another 36 Rafales do come, I will distribute mithai equal to the weight of one Rafale onlee. 10 tons is a lot cheaper on my wallet, than 13,000+ tons of mithai :mrgreen:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

India operationalises Rafale jets in Eastern corridor
https://www.opindia.com/2021/07/india-r ... se-bengal/
30 July 2021
Despite the numerical strength of China, the Indian Air Force has a ‘terrain advantage’ in both ground attack and aerial combat along the Line of Actual Control. China also faces a huge disadvantage as its airbases are located at high altitudes. The rarefied air limits fuel and weapon carrying capacity of the fighter jets. Quoting Indian Air Force officers, TOI reported that India’s bulk of fighter jets in the form of Mirage-2000s, MiG-29s and Sukhoi-30MKI, and Rafale are superior to Chinese fighters.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Did the US Secretary of State actually say this? This is from Sputnik News, so just wondering.

India Deploys Rafale Jet Near Tibet as China Hardens Position on Border Issues
https://sputniknews.com/world/202107281 ... er-issues/
28 July 2021
Meanwhile, refuting the common perception among security analysts that Quad was a group to counter China, visiting US Secretary of State Antony Blinken insisted that the alliance of US, Japan, India and Australia has no military ambitions but is designed to foster cooperation on regional challenges while reinforcing international rules and values.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

BTW, the NaPakis are claiming that the JF-17 has beaten the Rafale at the tri-nation air exercise between Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar. The final tally was six Rafales for 2 JF-17s.

The quality of ganja that is sold is Pakistan is truly 100% certified. It is pure and organic.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by m_saini »

Rakesh wrote:... So I will be overjoyed if the 114 MRFA deal will get canceled as a result. Truly, a lungi dance moment.
....
And if another 36 Rafales do come, it will be a testament to the Govt (and to the man himself…PM Modi) for resisting both domestic and foreign interference in the Rafale deal and forging ahead regardless. It is not easy to walk this tightrope of multipolar alignment and also when China is trying to kick down the door. Lesson to learn here - for future governments and foreign policy analysts - is that even superpowers can be effectively managed. Under this Govt, India sings her own tune and India's rise must be managed by India alone....
+1008

Another 36 always made sense. But Im(layman)o only when Mk2 & TEDBF are ready can the import tamasha be considered fully over forever. May that day ride a shinkansen to the present!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:BTW, the NaPakis are claiming that the JF-17 has beaten the Rafale at the tri-nation air exercise between Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar. The final tally was six Rafales for 2 JF-17s....
Thank you for making me spill a bit of my monday morning hot coffee on my self..
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

m_saini wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 9528103937
News Report: IAF has begun the necessary paperwork for the acquisition of another 36 Rafale omni-role fighters from France.
Will take total to 72.
Source based news from India Today... Not sure to what extent it is true... Whatever they do, better sign the deal before 2022...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

That same news source said that after contract signature, it will take three years for delivery of the first batch.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Yagnasri »

Better go for another 36 and end further dramas on import of fighters. But due to the fake allegations of corruption that will not be easy decision to take. Particularly close to UP elections and 2024.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sajaym »

Rakesh wrote:BTW, the NaPakis are claiming that the JF-17 has beaten the Rafale at the tri-nation air exercise between Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar. The final tally was six Rafales for 2 JF-17s.
Even if true it means that the pakistani pilots are now familiar with the Qatari Rafales, only enough to beat a Qatari Rafale flown by a Qatari pilot. But against Indian Rafales flown by Indian pilots, it's still an unknown scenario for them -- and always will be.

Nevertheless, I have always been fascinated by the cooperation between the Arab airforces and PAF -- the former are intellectual beggars and the latter are financial beggars, so a great mutually beneficial relationship!
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Leonard »

Paki's are always smoking the highest quality of opium/ganja ...

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 81/photo/1

>>
Qatar Air Force rejects reports that JF-17 beat Rafales in recent exercises in Turkey.
While Qatar stated that Rafales achieved a great kill ratio against Turkish F-16s, it added that Pak Air Force formally requested not to reveal results in public (to avoid embarrassment to PAF)
<<

Junk Fighter -- will be a great big fat turkey shoot ...
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by hnair »

Thanks Leonard. I dont know why people even bothered above to rationalize any paki claims of a fighter with bad engines, radar issues, unable to loop etc, with a world class product.

The only way a 2:7 Thundaar vs Rafale score is true is if some incompetent paki groundcrew used a tractor to drag two Thundaars through a line of parked Rafales on the way to some free food.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by kit »

Rakesh wrote:BTW, the NaPakis are claiming that the JF-17 has beaten the Rafale at the tri-nation air exercise between Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar. The final tally was six Rafales for 2 JF-17s.

The quality of ganja that is sold is Pakistan is truly 100% certified. It is pure and organic.
let them inflate their balloon as much as possible with JF17s ., we should encourage them ., lets put on the idiot hat and remind everyone
36 Rafale = 1 JF 17 :mrgreen:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vivek K »

Rakesh wrote:BTW, the NaPakis are claiming that the JF-17 has beaten the Rafale at the tri-nation air exercise between Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar. The final tally was six Rafales for 2 JF-17s.

The quality of ganja that is sold is Pakistan is truly 100% certified. It is pure and organic.
:rotfl: !
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

m_saini wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 9528103937
News Report: IAF has begun the necessary paperwork for the acquisition of another 36 Rafale omni-role fighters from France.
Will take total to 72.
There are some AV's that are claiming that the Air Force plan is to go for a staggered purchase of 108 Rafales (36 + 36 + 36) to off set immediate financial pressure/obligation and also to take advantage of buying in tranches more advanced versions (F4.1 onwards)
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Well that ties in with what General Bipin Rawat was stating - staggered purchases versus one large order. Easier on the exchequer. But let’s see how this plays out.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Vips »

hnair wrote:
The only way a 2:7 Thundaar vs Rafale score is true is if some incompetent paki groundcrew used a tractor to drag two Thundaars through a line of parked Rafales on the way to some free food.
Take that you Kafir, Gazi Paki tractor driver pilot is not Fizzle Ya :rotfl:
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by ldev »

Besides finances I think the staggered purchase process is also to guard against overwhelming dependence on a single type of foreign origin and all the vulnerabilities, spares, upgrade dependence etc.that entails such as the 272 SU-30MKIs. So that after each smaller purchase, a periodic review can be done on whether there is lop sided dependence on a single vendor.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Tanaji »

Has anyone seen any videos of JF17 firing a BVR yet?
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

m_saini wrote:Another 36 always made sense. But Im(layman)o only when Mk2 & TEDBF are ready can the import tamasha be considered fully over forever. May that day ride a shinkansen to the present!
Amen to that. Fully agree.
Manish_P wrote:Thank you for making me spill a bit of my monday morning hot coffee on my self..
It was coffee well spilt ;)
Yagnasri wrote:Better go for another 36 and end further dramas on import of fighters. But due to the fake allegations of corruption that will not be easy decision to take. Particularly close to UP elections and 2024.
If that French judge clears any wrong doing in the deal for the first 36 birds, I expect a deal for another 36 birds to be signed next year.
sajaym wrote:Even if true it means that the pakistani pilots are now familiar with the Qatari Rafales, only enough to beat a Qatari Rafale flown by a Qatari pilot. But against Indian Rafales flown by Indian pilots, it's still an unknown scenario for them -- and always will be.
Saar, any interceptor in the IAF can take on the JF-17 and win. Tejas, Mirage 2000I, Su-30MKI, MiG-21 Bison, MiG-29UPG and even Rafale. But don't take my word for it. This is from Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd) - a former MiG-21 and Mirage 2000 fighter pilot in the Indian Air Force. See what he has to say about the JF-17...

https://hushkit.net/2019/09/25/flying-f ... 000-pilot/
Q. How confident would a M2000 pilot feel going 1 v 1 against the following: PAF JF-17
A. “Can beat this extremely underpowered fighter in any fight. This is not a rhetoric, I have commented on it earlier. The JF-17 project should have been shelved because it does not tick any box of a modern-day fighter.”
The Chinese sold Pakistan a lemon. Even the Pakistan Air Force knows it has a lemon on its hands...but their braggadocio & mythical superiority (natural traits of NaPakis) will not permit them to admit that fact.

Now the Qataris and the Turks know that fact as well. What a turkey shoot it must have been for those Qatari pilots :lol:
sajaym wrote:Nevertheless, I have always been fascinated by the cooperation between the Arab airforces and PAF -- the former are intellectual beggars and the latter are financial beggars, so a great mutually beneficial relationship!
Some Arabs have realized that being intellectual beggars is not a long term advantage for them. Countries like Bahrain, UAE, Saudi Arabia and even Qatar have woken up to the realization that aligning with Pakistan brings nothing to the table. This Ummah talk is only for the madrassas. At OPEC and other similar gulf organizations...money speaks. And Pakistan has no money and the Arabs know that. That does not mean that they will not exercise with Pakistan. The Qatari pilots needed some international exposure and they got it via the Turkey-Pakistan-Qatar air exercise.

Pakistan - since independence - has always "whored" itself to the highest bidder. And ever since they handed their H&D to China on a silver platter, they don't even have an identity anymore. They are part of the Belt & Road Initiative, also colloquially known as the Xi "Panda" Collective.
Tanaji wrote:Has anyone seen any videos of JF17 firing a BVR yet?
None that I have seen. But JF-17 can fire PL-15 which has a range of 300+ km or so the NaPakis and their Chinese overlords claim. BVRAAMs like AIM-120D AMRAAM (160+ km) and Meteor (150+ km) stand no chance.

Forget India, even America will lose against such wonderful Chinese technology.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by LakshmanPST »

Vips wrote:
There are some AV's that are claiming that the Air Force plan is to go for a staggered purchase of 108 Rafales (36 + 36 + 36) to off set immediate financial pressure/obligation and also to take advantage of buying in tranches more advanced versions (F4.1 onwards)
Rakesh wrote:Well that ties in with what General Bipin Rawat was stating - staggered purchases versus one large order. Easier on the exchequer. But let’s see how this plays out.
Actually it is the other way around... The AVs are simply quoting Bipin Rawat's old statements along with reporting the India Today news and adding their own masala...
Though I want the news to be true, I'll wait until I see some official statement regarding this before starting to celebrate...
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