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VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2017 08:25

Dassault Rafale: Qatari mechanics training in Mont-de-Marsan
https://www.journal-aviation.com/en/new ... -de-marsan

Rafale training for Qatari personnel is moving ahead at pace at the BA 118 in Mont-de-Marsan. Some of them were already there during the Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly's visit mid-September, demonstrating both Franco-Qatari co-operation and above all the role played by the air force in providing support for exports. This task is made increasingly easy given the huge commitment by staff..

"Here in Mont-de-Marsan, the home of the Rafale, we're in charge of training pilots and mechanics. Obviously, we are very proud of this recognition of the skills of our mechanics, who are seen as references in their field. But it's also a huge challenge, as these same people will be heading out on external missions", says Lieutenant-Colonel Emmanuel, commander of ESTA 15.30 Chalosse. "They need to be involved in both aspects, and also provide the training in English, but things are going really well all the same."

The first mechanics arrived at the start of 2017 and more mechanics will be arriving later "in a series of waves. By the end of 2018-start 2019, around one hundred members of Qatari air crew will have been trained at Mont-de-Marsan. Around ten Qataris are currently at the maintenance hangars at the base in the Landes region. The avionics, weapons and vector specialists always work in pairs with French staff, who are responsible for all maintenance operations carried out on air force planes. "They are here to be trained and build up their skills. We teach them the techniques and organisational aspects they need to carry out maintenance on a base and during operations", explains Lieutenant-Colonel Emmanuel. The idea is to "simulate" an operational squadron in parallel to pilot training.

While the first crew members from Qatar are intended to be workshop managers and already have maintenance skills, others will receive training "from the ground up" in France. A programme lasting around three years will take them from the Gironde to the Charente-Maritime regions, before the final stage in the Landes region. Aerocampus Aquitaine has therefore been tasked with training the future Qatari Rafale mechanics in English and in basic maintenance techniques, while BA 721 in Rochefort will be more geared towards the "operational" side in order to prepare the transition to BA 118 and to ensure their skills "mature". This operational support operation, which began in summer 2016, should continue until the end of 2020.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Oct 2017 12:27

As the crow flies , Hasimara airbase is aprrox ~ 80 Km from the Doklam, is the Chinese road building aimed at getting Smerch and other Ballistic Missile artillery as close as possible, we should probably get our artillery ready with Line of Sight and other assets which can target these Chinese rocket artilery units.

Hasimara to that Chinese Mega radar site is about ~120Km. The Chinese don't have a fighter airbaase nearby so most probably they are planning to bring their rocket artillery.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 11 Oct 2017 05:37

Dassault plans business-jet manufacturing in India on Modi's push
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 021882.cms

Not for Rafale but for the Falcon 2000 --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Falcon_2000

The Paris-based company wants to deepen its ties with the South Asian country after it bid for a defense contract worth $11 billion to supply 126 Rafale aircraft and eventually won an order for only 36 planes last year. India had initially agreed to buy all the 126 jets under a long-delayed deal, even mandating Dassault to build some of them locally.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2017 04:57

Aditya_V wrote:As the crow flies , Hasimara airbase is aprrox ~ 80 Km from the Doklam, is the Chinese road building aimed at getting Smerch and other Ballistic Missile artillery as close as possible, we should probably get our artillery ready with Line of Sight and other assets which can target these Chinese rocket artilery units.

Hasimara to that Chinese Mega radar site is about ~120Km. The Chinese don't have a fighter airbaase nearby so most probably they are planning to bring their rocket artillery.


Those are LCA territory ... 80km, 120km... don't need MMRCA ;)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2017 04:59

Rakesh wrote:India to Station Rafale Jets Within Strike Range of China and Pakistan
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017100310 ... fale-jets/

India is finalizing the logistical arrangements for its Rafale fighter jet equipped Air Force squadrons to be stationed at two different air bases located at such a distance from where Indian Air Force can hit both its rival neighbors in less than 180 seconds.Yadong of China is less than 100 kilometers from Hasimara while Indian Air Force can hit other parts of Southern Tibet through Bhutan Airspace within four minutes.

Again, the ranges they are taking about is LCA territory :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Oct 2017 10:32

The Air force is keeping the base so that Xigaze and Lhasa airbases are within Rafale range, the Chinese see this as threat and moving thier rocket artillery in the Chumbi valley and pushing thier troops on Doklam, so that Our counter Battery fire is moved is bit back and also we have to defend the Siliguiri corridor.

One eg. from 1962, thee Chinese Soldier Wang Ki who spent 54 years in Tirodi village in MP, he way given 10 days leave in June 1961 before being moved to the Indo Tibetan Border, which means the Chinese detailed action plans were ready by 1961 and they were just waiting for provocation at thier time and place to start thier invasion.

The Chinese have thier plans by 2013 they had assessed our rot had increased enough for them to have complete military advantage, thats why they provoked by sending 1000 men patrols into our territory by 2014. If build up our miltary capability sufficiently we can avert war.

Pakis and Chinese are like Jackals, they see a weakness they will prepare and attack.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 12 Oct 2017 10:44

Amman, Jordan to Israeli air space is 45 sec in a fighter jet. All Israeli air bases are < 100 km from surrounding Arab air spaces and they had top of the line F-15s for decades in this scenario.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 12 Oct 2017 13:40

Karthik S wrote:Amman, Jordan to Israeli air space is 45 sec in a fighter jet. All Israeli air bases are < 100 km from surrounding Arab air spaces and they had top of the line F-15s for decades in this scenario.

The examples of IAF Rafale given were what would be within LCA capabilities. If they want to sell the virtues of $8 billion investment on medium fighter, they need to talk more about targets deep inside China/Pakistan that can be struck with the Rafale instead of selling how close to the border it is and border targets/interception.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 06:48

After 36 jets, Rafale to push for Make In India
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/ ... 76772.html

After selling 36 Rafale fighter jets to India, French government is now pushing for a project to manufacture warplanes here in Indian soil to give a boost to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's push to encourage local manufacturing under ‘Make In India’. And to put Paris’s case strongly, its newly appointed defence minister Florance Parley is visiting New Delhi and will be meeting her Indian counterpart. According to south block officials, Parly will be landing India with high level delegation on October 26 and on next day she is scheduled to hold series of meetings with Indian officials on issues related to defence cooperation between the two nation. “Though the visit is aimed towards further strengthening defence cooperation between the two nations, but offering production line in India for Rafale jets is surely will be on cards,” said an official.

Incidentally, Florence Parly of France and Nirmala Sithraman are the only two women to head the Defence Ministry of nuclear-armed nations. Parly will not hold delegation level talks with defence ministry officials, responsible for acquisitions, she will also hold talks with Indian Air Force for better understanding of the force’s requirement. On October 28, she will travel to Nagpur to launch a production facility of Dassault aviation in Nagpur, which has tied with Reliance Defence for offset of over Rs. 20,000 crore. Dassault Avaition, manufactures of Rafale jets had signed contract worth $11 billion to supply 126 Rafale aircraft and eventually won an order for only 36 planes last year. India had initially agreed to buy all the 126 jets under a long-delayed deal, even mandating Dassault to build some of them locally. But the 126 Medium multi role combat aircraft (MMRCA) tender, issued by the Congress led UPA government was cancelled by the Modi government. But now, IAF is desperate to increase its combat strength- -the key concern, which have been raised by the force on many occasions.

IAF at present operating with 32 squadrons and on the verge of losing out more squadrons as MiG 21 and MiG 27 fleeting is ageing and the Air Force would achieve its sanctioned strength of 42 fighter squadrons by 2032. IAF will have 83 indigenous Light Combat Aircaft Tejas, 36 Rafale and 36 additional Sukhoi fighter jets by end of 2019. Though, IAF was keen on a follow-on order of 36 additional Rafales to bridge the gap of it depleting combat fleet, but, they are now settling for lighter single engine warplanes. For this, the IAF is will start the process this month to acquire a fleet of single engine fighter jets which are expected to significantly enhance its overall strike capability. But, IAF has already maintained that requirement of twin engine is very much there. IAF chief Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa, on the occasion of IAF Raising day has made it clear that there is absolutely a need for twin-engine fighter jets. And Rafaje is a twin engine jet.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2017 07:39

V.funny! Req. for twin-engine fighters but the good CoAS in a v.recent interview said that the IAF wasn't interested in the MIG-35 where you can get 3-4 for the price of just one Rafale.That means "only Rafale" as the IAF's anthem or yet another firang bird,the F-18 at half the price?

The IAF's insistence of "only Rafale" will beggar the budget. $1 B has just been approved for EW aircraft from the US.Tankers from Airbus rejected for high cost has let Boeing into the ring.A few more $$B for these.Then the SE fighter.Where is the money ? Cost-effectiveness is the only way.The IAF needs to look back upon its history and re-learn how it won its wars without the bestest of eqpt. at the time but had a clear numerical superiority.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby arvin » 19 Oct 2017 08:04

Seems single engine fighter program is in a rough patch and french have smelt blood. This looks like plan B activation. There was also news report few days back on unwillingness to share tech for the 70s fighter in contention for SE program.
If Rafale is made in india it might solve Navys requirement also.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 08:15

The French are trying to scuttle the SE deal. Good luck with that. Not going to happen. But see how they came running when they realized the SE deal is moving ahead. At the most, they will get another 36 Rafales signed. But even that is a long stretch now.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby uddu » 19 Oct 2017 08:44

There should only be one SE in IAF and that's the Tejas and its variants. So if the French could manufacture in India and bring down the cost, comparable to any other of its kind, then we could think of going for Rafale. I think as time go by the cost of Rafale is coming down because the entry of 5th Gen fighters make it less and less attractive.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 19 Oct 2017 08:50

Cost generally tracks to manufacturing efficiencies and volume/scale. At some component level, it does come down with time, such as electronics but unless you are producing something more efficiently there isn't a whole lot of margin sitting in there that allows you to instantly lower cost of production just because something newer is available that reaps the benefits of 5+ times its annual production volume.

To lower cost significantly, Dassault needs orders. Recent orders and delivery timelines have already boosted production rates but any significant impact of that would only be felt if that is sustained. As multiple industrial projects have shown, cost over time can actually go up if orders dry up forcing OEMs to pursue sub-optimal annual build rates. This then leads to a cascading effect across tier 2 and 3 suppliers that also then reduce capacity.

For complicated defense equipment that does not enjoy commercial scale for the most part, the easiest way to lower cost is to build and buy at economically advantageous quantities, and not drag out procurement like France has done.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Oct 2017 08:59

Rakesh wrote:The French are trying to scuttle the SE deal. Good luck with that. Not going to happen. But see how they came running when they realized the SE deal is moving ahead. At the most, they will get another 36 Rafales signed. But even that is a long stretch now.

What about the 57 fighter requirement of the Navy?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 19 Oct 2017 09:03

Cain-ji: Do the wings of the Rafale fit in the lifts of the Vikramaditya or the Vikrant? Only Boeing has made that claim. I could be wrong.

Indian Navy Carrier Jet War Hots Up, Boeing Focuses Fire
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/08 ... -fire.html

Boeing has dismissed reports that the F/A-18 is too big for the hangar elevators on the INS Vikramaditya and the under-construction Vikrant class aircraft carrier. The company confirmed today that the Block III Super Hornet requires no modifications for full operations on either of these carriers. Discussions are currently ongoing with the Indian Navy. What appears unclear is if the dimensional clearances in the elevators are too small for comfortable deck handling. If no modifications are imposed on both the aircraft and the shaft systems of the carrier elevators, how much of a trade off would it be for other parameters, including turnaround and sortie generation? A bit of a grey call right now.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Katare » 19 Oct 2017 09:27

Buying migs would most certainly be a suicide and the IAF even with all its love for Natashas is not insane. Not gonna happen! Those planes are unaffordably expensive to operate that is if and when they are operable at all.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Oct 2017 01:59

French Defense Minister set to garner new contract for Rafale Jets in India
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017101810 ... aele-jets/

Dassault Aviation has already expressed its eagerness to set up a manufacturing unit in India. The proposal will be taken up for further discussion during Parley’s meeting with India’s top officials who are likely to insist on the ‘Make in India’ model.

Oh the French are truly amazing. Start a competitor fighter program and they come running. Just a few years ago, they refused to guarantee the production of Indian made Rafales and now this.

Sources told Sputnik that the discussions will focus on clearing the hurdles in defense cooperation including technology transfer; primarily from Safran, to several long-delayed Indian projects. "We are waiting for the final words on the jet engine program from the Indian side for a long time. It has not been moved as per our expectation," a French firm official told to Sputnik in New Delhi.

Coming from Sputnik, I will take the above with a sack of salt. But do we have any chaiwallahs that can confirm the above?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Oct 2017 11:55

French won't gurantee the production of Indian made Rafale. Are you aware HAL screwed up even with paint job of Indian Build MKI and they have to re-learn and re-do the whole thing. It was a Reliance-Dassault venture that took the gurantee for Indian built Rafale. The Americans say the same thing.

IF they indded make Rafale in India it would be a good choice currently this is the best aircraft with Technology that can be transferred if that happens and also makes way for Neuron UCAV program.

No Chai wala needed posted a DRDO interview where P Christi mentions of Safaran involvement in Kaveri and other programs

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 20 Oct 2017 14:06

Austin wrote:Are you aware HAL screwed up even with paint job of Indian Build MKI and they have to re-learn and re-do the whole thing.

Source?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Oct 2017 15:16

Karan M wrote:
Austin wrote:Are you aware HAL screwed up even with paint job of Indian Build MKI and they have to re-learn and re-do the whole thing.

Source?

It came in FORCE interview some years back , 2 MKI had issues with painting on them serious enough that IAF had to send it back not just that even the local production due to slow absorption from HAL got impacted by several years and consequently they had to import in SKD/CKD form to speed up the process. Even the compressed schedule to build MKI by HAL is impacted and latest schedule seems to be 2018.

Dassault is not wrong in saying that they wont take responsibility for any screw up HAL does with Rafale which would certainly happen as part of learning process as it did with MKI , There should not be any penalty clause for it on OEM the OEM does the QA and QC stuff and end product but the entire build process ownership should be with HAL or who ever builds that in the end if it comes to that.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 20 Oct 2017 18:44

^^^ Though its not fair to penalize Dassault for HAL's failures, this is only one side of the story. I think the penalty thing comes into pictures from the concern that Dassault might not properly transfer ToT to HAL in timely manner and in completeness for HAL to absorb the processes properly. Its Dassaults' responsibility that this happens. Beyond that if something happens then HAL can be held accountable. We have also learnt through experience with Russians. For Su30 they often used to give incomplete or even incoherent production drawing sets. HAL would have to sit down and either make sense out of it or simply design new small small parts to bridge gaps. Heaps of documents in Russians without any translation would be sent. I am told by an ex-HAL employee that HAL would find it difficult to recruit someone who was good with Russian and engineering terms to be able to translate tons of documents. Mind well documentation for entire aircraft can be really overwhelming due to its sheer quantity. Any contract should make clear the responsibilities on who is suppose to do what. Then a mechanism should be devised to handle shortcomings in fulfilling responsibilities and penalties for that. I am sure the way we write contracts with foreign OEMs there must have been left a lot of gray area in this. And we get screwed always in such scenario because we hold very little leverage.

Even then its not an easy task to fix responsibilities when failure happens. When work of such complexities is being done sometimes shit happens. In that case someone has to take responsibility. As an OEM ts Dassaults' nob to do so. Though penalty for that can be negotiated based on how the error has happened and could be weived off. But setting no penalty doesnt make sense. That way Dassault would blame everything on HAL. And we know HAL will be a soft target in any dispute.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Oct 2017 04:51

Rakesh wrote:Cain-ji: Do the wings of the Rafale fit in the lifts of the Vikramaditya or the Vikrant? Only Boeing has made that claim. I could be wrong.

Admiral garu, I think dassault would not respond to Navy rfi if it cannot meet this parameter. Iirc, and i may not be, they were speaking of somehow inclining the bird to for the space

But right now the Americans are pushing hard for the shornet although I'd rather see the jsf

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 21 Oct 2017 05:31

Admiral garu, I think dassault would not respond to Navy rfi if it cannot meet this parameter. Iirc, and i may not be, they were speaking of somehow inclining the bird to for the space


Those specific choices were being explored by Boeing and not Dassault as per the stratpost article posted a few weeks back. Of course Dassault can compete while the baseline Rafale-M not meeting requirements for the lift - they could offer a new variant wihich accounts for that but this approach is likely to be the costliest from cost, risk and time that it takes to field. But worth a look for commonality since the IAF is likely to eventually operate 70 or so Rafales.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 21 Oct 2017 12:33

JayS wrote:^^^ Though its not fair to penalize Dassault for HAL's failures, this is only one side of the story. I think the penalty thing comes into pictures from the concern that Dassault might not properly transfer ToT to HAL in timely manner and in completeness for HAL to absorb the processes properly. Its Dassaults' responsibility that this happens. Beyond that if something happens then HAL can be held accountable. We have also learnt through experience with Russians. For Su30 they often used to give incomplete or even incoherent production drawing sets. HAL would have to sit down and either make sense out of it or simply design new small small parts to bridge gaps. Heaps of documents in Russians without any translation would be sent. I am told by an ex-HAL employee that HAL would find it difficult to recruit someone who was good with Russian and engineering terms to be able to translate tons of documents. Mind well documentation for entire aircraft can be really overwhelming due to its sheer quantity. Any contract should make clear the responsibilities on who is suppose to do what. Then a mechanism should be devised to handle shortcomings in fulfilling responsibilities and penalties for that. I am sure the way we write contracts with foreign OEMs there must have been left a lot of gray area in this. And we get screwed always in such scenario because we hold very little leverage.


HAL does not have a great record of even building indiginous system much less they are used to Spoon Feeding from OEM and if they dont get it right they can always blame the OEM.

HAL would just say they got the design drawing in FRench and they dont have resources to read that up and will blame Dassault.

Reason why any OEM be it Dassault or even the US one mentioned they wont be taking any reprehensibility for HAL built aircraft they dont have any splendor record to doing things right and much less doing it on time and every time they would blame the vendor for it that takes away the ownership from their head and put the blame on others.

IF MOD wants a water tight contract please go ahead what is stopping the MOD/HAL to write a water tight contract by hiring the best legal mind money can buy ?

Even the OEM knows this and would simply offset it by jacking up the prices to compensate for any they might face for taking on tighter obligations , COntract is a two way street if you are liable to take on more responsibility then you are also liable to get paid more for higher risk involved. In that case the entire deal cost may go up and make things unaffordable or more expeinsive for MOD.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 21 Oct 2017 12:37

Might just be the typical configuration for long range deep strike mission

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 21 Oct 2017 13:33

I don't think we'll see more than the originally envisaged number of 126 Rafales in our inventory. This is the best case scenario in terms of numbers.
Now is there any logic in investing in a Rafale line for the remaining 90 planes? How much ToT will the French grant us for 90 planes? Better if we order directly from them.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 21 Oct 2017 22:12

Austin wrote:
JayS wrote:^^^ Though its not fair to penalize Dassault for HAL's failures, this is only one side of the story. I think the penalty thing comes into pictures from the concern that Dassault might not properly transfer ToT to HAL in timely manner and in completeness for HAL to absorb the processes properly. Its Dassaults' responsibility that this happens. Beyond that if something happens then HAL can be held accountable. We have also learnt through experience with Russians. For Su30 they often used to give incomplete or even incoherent production drawing sets. HAL would have to sit down and either make sense out of it or simply design new small small parts to bridge gaps. Heaps of documents in Russians without any translation would be sent. I am told by an ex-HAL employee that HAL would find it difficult to recruit someone who was good with Russian and engineering terms to be able to translate tons of documents. Mind well documentation for entire aircraft can be really overwhelming due to its sheer quantity. Any contract should make clear the responsibilities on who is suppose to do what. Then a mechanism should be devised to handle shortcomings in fulfilling responsibilities and penalties for that. I am sure the way we write contracts with foreign OEMs there must have been left a lot of gray area in this. And we get screwed always in such scenario because we hold very little leverage.


HAL does not have a great record of even building indiginous system much less they are used to Spoon Feeding from OEM and if they dont get it right they can always blame the OEM.

HAL would just say they got the design drawing in FRench and they dont have resources to read that up and will blame Dassault.

Reason why any OEM be it Dassault or even the US one mentioned they wont be taking any reprehensibility for HAL built aircraft they dont have any splendor record to doing things right and much less doing it on time and every time they would blame the vendor for it that takes away the ownership from their head and put the blame on others.

IF MOD wants a water tight contract please go ahead what is stopping the MOD/HAL to write a water tight contract by hiring the best legal mind money can buy ?

Even the OEM knows this and would simply offset it by jacking up the prices to compensate for any they might face for taking on tighter obligations , COntract is a two way street if you are liable to take on more responsibility then you are also liable to get paid more for higher risk involved. In that case the entire deal cost may go up and make things unaffordable or more expeinsive for MOD.


See? This is why I said HAL will be a soft target. Not only foreigns, majority of the Indians will also blame HAL for any short coming without even looking at the matter for one sec. If the pretence is that its gonna be HAL always to falter while foreign OEM cannot screw up, then HAL will end up taking the blame even for mistakes which are not theirs. I work with OEMs, I know they screw up, sometimes big time. HAL might be somewhat worse than them. But there is no way that OEMs will always be correct and it will always be HAL's fault.

Anyway, an OEM cannot wash its hands off the responsibility of QA of their product. Its called license production for a reason. Its their responsibility to make sure product is of promised quality as far as the customer is concerned. If they think it will take more resources and efforts to get good quality out of HAL, then they can include the cost component in the contract. Its negotiation anyway. If the customer is thinks its worth he will pay more. But washing off responsibility is very unbecoming of an OEM.

And you know very well why we never had water tight contracts. In fact I feel this is the first time the contract was really negotiated from the perspective of getting the best bang for the buck, all thanks to MP. Had it been case as usual, these things might not have even come in public disclosure. Finally even HAL has to make do with whatever is written in the contracts because its not them who write contracts, its MoD.

Of coarse HAL can wash off its responsibility, very much possible. But then thats why the contract should contain mechanism to identify responsibility of any setback or issue cropping up and commensurate penalties for it, if deemed appropriate. One cannot have biased mind while writing contracts. Else there will be loopholes.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Oct 2017 22:26

brar_w wrote:
Admiral garu, I think dassault would not respond to Navy rfi if it cannot meet this parameter. Iirc, and i may not be, they were speaking of somehow inclining the bird to for the space.

Those specific choices were being explored by Boeing and not Dassault as per the stratpost article posted a few weeks back. Of course Dassault can compete while the baseline Rafale-M not meeting requirements for the lift - they could offer a new variant wihich accounts for that but this approach is likely to be the costliest from cost, risk and time that it takes to field. But worth a look for commonality since the IAF is likely to eventually operate 70 or so Rafales.

First we need to confirm that the lift is actually only 10 meters wide. I know a Google measurement was done, but who is willing to do the following --> Take a tape measure (really long one) and go measure the lift and report back on BRF :)

That was a joke. Please do not do it.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 21 Oct 2017 22:31

Austin wrote:Might just be the typical configuration for long range deep strike mission

Image


Nice. They have pinched ETFs.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby brar_w » 21 Oct 2017 23:10

Rakesh wrote:First we need to confirm that the lift is actually only 10 meters wide. I know a Google measurement was done, but who is willing to do the following --> Take a tape measure (really long one) and go measure the lift and report back on BRF :)

That was a joke. Please do not do it.


This is information that has been reported on.

As per StratPost, the big elevator on the VikA measures 18.8m x 9.9m (what I could dig up put it @ 19.2m x 10.2m but that was dated information) and those on the IAC-1 are sized around the MiG-29K, and LCA-N requirements and won't fit the folded wings of the F-18E/F without modifications, some of which Boeing has mentioned it is exploring without physical changes to the aircraft. The Rafale does not fold its wings so unlike Boeing they would likely have to introduce design changes.

https://www.stratpost.com/failure-to-launch/

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 24 Oct 2017 23:59

Dassault not only plagiarised Lockheed Martin's playbook, but they are actually implementing it :lol: I believe they are referring to the Dassault Falcon 2000, but Rafale will not be too far off. An MRO facility for the Rafale would be nice to have.

Foundation for Dassault-Reliance aerospace park to be laid this week
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/com ... 921315.ece

French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation and Anil Ambani-promoted Reliance Aerospace Ltd will this week lay the foundation stone of an aerospace park which will manufacture aircraft components for the Indian and the global market. French Defence Minister Florence Parlay, top officials of Dassualt Aviation and Chairman of Reliance Group Anil D Ambani are scheduled to attend the event in Nagpur on Friday, an official said. The Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park (DAAP) is being set up in the city’s Mihaan Special Economic Zone.

The joint venture is being set up as part of Dassault’s offset obligations for the Rs. 58,000 crore deal to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets to India. The deal was signed in September last year. Spread over 289 acres, DAAP is touted to be the largest greenfield aerospace project in India. The joint venture will be the leading entity to execute the Rafale offset programme. “The aerospace park will have assembly lines and manufacturing facilities for fixed wing aircraft and will produce aircraft components for global markets,” said the official.

The Dassault–Reliance partnership will bring in not only high level transfer of technology but also help develop the eco-system of the domestic aerospace sector and feed into the global supply chain, he said. A large number of Indian MSMEs are also expected to set up facilities at DAAP. The Dassault–Reliance JV has already shortlisted large number of vendors, mostly small-and medium-size enterprises, to be part of the supply chain at DAAP. “Production at the facility is expected to start in the first quarter of 2018, phase one will be fully operational by the third quarter of 2018,” said the official who wished not to be named. The Rafale combat aircraft will come with various India-specific modifications.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 25 Oct 2017 00:05

^^^ Some more interesting details tied in with the above article. I hate TOI and Economic Times. They do not permit Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V :)

France, India to enhance maritime security
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 193197.cms

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 04:34

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/923506631136239616 ---> French Defence Minister Florence Parly will attend the foundation ceremony of Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited in Nagpur with Nitin Gadkari & Anil Ambani.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 04:42

6 SCALP cruise missiles
1 ?
16 ?
26 ?

French Defence Minister Florence Parly in a Rafale cockpit

Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 04:52

Dassault To Invest 100 Million Euros In Indian Venture With Reliance
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/dassaul ... ce-1768105

French major Dassault Aviation will invest over 100 million euros in a joint venture with Reliance Aerospace to manufacture aircraft components as part of the 'offset obligation' connected to the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets from France. The Dassault-Reliance joint venture represents the largest ever foreign direct investment in the defence sector in India, the companies said in a joint statement. The foundation laying ceremony of the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) manufacturing facility was held today at the Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park in Mihan SEZ near the Nagpur airport. The foundation stone was laid in the presence of Florence Parly, Minister of Armed Forces of the French Republic, Reliance Group Chairman Anil Ambani, Union Minister Nitin Gadkari, Maharashtra Chief Minister Devendra Fadnavis and Ambassador of France to India, Alexandre Ziegler. Kokilaben Ambani, the Ambani family matriarch, Tina Ambani, wife of Anil Ambani and his son Anmol were also present. DRAL will manufacture several components of the offset obligation connected to the purchase of 36 Rafale Fighters from France, signed between the two governments in September 2016, Mr Ambani said.

It will manufacture components for the Legacy Falcon 2000 series of civil jets manufactured by Dassault Aviation and will become part of its global supply chain. "These first steps are expected to be achieved in the coming years, leading to the possible setting up of the final assembly of Rafale and Falcon aircraft in India," a DRAL official said. This is for the first time that a business jet will be manufactured in India, the official said. The DRAL facility will train skilled workers in aviation assembly and integration, and lead to major employment generation in Nagpur and surrounding areas, the official added. It will also attract and house an organic ecosystem of over 200 MSMEs to secure the component and avionics manufacturing needs of Rafale and Falcon jets. Dassault Aviation Chairman Eric Trappier said the firm is firmly committed to implementing Prime Minister Narendra Modi's 'Make In India' programme. "This development (DRAL) gives the 65 year-long strong association of Dassault Aviation in India a new momentum and the will of future manufacturing developments," he said.

"The Reliance-Dassault partnership will bring high levels of technology transfer and make India a major supplier in the global aviation supply chain," Mr Ambani said. Dassault and Reliance will fully support 'Make in India' and 'Skill India' missions and enhance India's pursuit of self-sufficiency in the aerospace sector, he added. Mr Ambani also thanked Mr Gadkari and Mr Fadnavis for their "strong and consistent support" for the project. The Dhirubhai Ambani Aerospace Park, spread over 289 acres, will be the largest Greenfield aerospace park in India with a capital investment of over Rs. 6,500 crore. It is being developed in two phases. Phase one production is expected to start next year. It will be home to DRAL- the 51:49 joint venture of Reliance Aerostructure and Dassault Aviation. Reliance Group will set up assembly lines and manufacturing facilities of fixed wing aircraft aero structure for commercial transport aircraft and helicopters for both defence and commercial use. The park will also house ancillary and component manufacturing units to support after-sales requirements.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 05:26

Dassault – Reliance Aerospace Manufacturing Facility In Mihan, Nagpur Inaugurated
http://bharatshakti.in/dassault-relianc ... augurated/

These first steps are expected to achieve in the coming years, the possible setting up of final assembly of Rafale and Falcon Aircraft.

It will also attract and house an organic ecosystem of over 200 MSME’s to secure the component and avionics manufacturing needs of Rafale and Falcon jets.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 29 Oct 2017 10:21

Rakesh wrote:6 SCALP cruise missiles
1 ?
16 ?
26 ?

Angad Singh appears to have solved the riddle....

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 6689519616

6 MBDA Scalp
16 AASM Hammer
26 Paveway variants
1 GBU-24/27?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 06:15

Rafale production to start at Nagpur plant from January 2018, says CEO Rajesh Dhingra
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busine ... 24827.html

DDM (Desi Dork Media) and Misleading title, but do check the video.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Gagan » 02 Nov 2017 09:16

Austin wrote:Might just be the typical configuration for long range deep strike mission

Image

This UBER-EXPENSIVE plane with all the jet fuel to be spent to drop only FOUR LGBs, hain ji !!! :eek:

India has to give up the constipated brit/european way of warfighting and imbibe mass strikes, maximun output, with minimum input kinda thing.

All three major powers - the US, Russia and China now employ such strategies - planes armed to the teeth, bigger bomber trucks etc.

DRDO should look at a cruise missile launching multiple projectiles for economies of scale. One such cruise missile for one group of targets, with 8-10 indipendently targeted submunitions, each of them precision guided

The Aura UCAV will probably be the cost of an LCA, and no pilot either ! Hope that enters service early


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