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VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Bhaskar_T » 12 Mar 2018 03:20

Since GOI buying Rafale is a purchase by Junta Paisa, it's a fair question that Junta can ask what is it in Reliance that is not in HAL when it comes to fighter building? When it is about screwdriver-giri (for those 36 Rafales), HAL could do better than Reliance and probably cheaper too. Shouldn't GOI had pushed Dassault to partner with HAL?

Secondly, Dassault joint venture (JV) with Reliance, does this JV accounts for offset settlement?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 12 Mar 2018 04:23

Rafale deal clean, people misinterpreted numbers to say India paid too much: Dassault CEO
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... I2XdI.html

“The figures in the report were given by me one-and-a-half years ago. The numbers include not only the Rafale deal but also covers Mirage-2000 support. I know that because the figures are coming from me,” said Trappier.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 12 Mar 2018 08:42

M2K support? That's a new one.So actual M2K upgrade cost is approx. $50M+ Labour costs for upgrade + "support".
Can't understand why it should rdflect in the Raffy deal, but there is one constant in both deals.Local " support" is from a certain R co.! :rotfl:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prasad » 12 Mar 2018 09:57

Bhaskar_T wrote:Since GOI buying Rafale is a purchase by Junta Paisa, it's a fair question that Junta can ask what is it in Reliance that is not in HAL when it comes to fighter building? When it is about screwdriver-giri (for those 36 Rafales), HAL could do better than Reliance and probably cheaper too. Shouldn't GOI had pushed Dassault to partner with HAL?

Secondly, Dassault joint venture (JV) with Reliance, does this JV accounts for offset settlement?

What exactly will Reliance build?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 12 Mar 2018 11:04

:rotfl: The "R" co. builds "relationships and contacts"!

PS:At least Tata's build helo fuselages,aircraft components,etc.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 12 Mar 2018 15:18

I think support here may mean enabling rafy weapon on m2k- and including these weapons - meteor, other exotic a2g weapon. So we have 36 +50 meteor shooters. I always wondered why would not the m2k be not enabled. It was after we inked the rafy deal.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 12 Mar 2018 16:41

^^^
Highly doubt Meteor on Mirage-2000. Weapon integration is a time consuming exercise; hence, costly. Who will pay for it?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby nash » 13 Mar 2018 10:36

EXCLUSIVE: 1st Full Details Of Rafale’s €4-billion Make-in-India & Offsets Plan

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... -plan.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 17 Mar 2018 04:14

Rafale naval gazing
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 17 Mar 2018 04:18

Airware tit bits of Rafale
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby shashankk » 17 Mar 2018 17:36

Pouring a bucket of ice cold water over the whole ‘Rafale scam exposed’ fiasco
http://www.opindia.com/2018/03/dassault ... es-expose/

In late 2017 we had penned a rebuttal to the claims regarding the 2016 Rafale deal that had emerged during a particularly heated state election campaign and for a few months, it appeared as though these fictitious claims had evaporated. However, in it is now March 2018 and sadly we are back square one and these accusations are running rampant, again occupying an inordinate amount of attention in political discussions and columns in newspapers. We would thus like to reaffirm the sheer absurdity and fallacies of these claims and hope to have a comprehensive document that can be used to refute any continued efforts to compromise our national security by undermining this deal and any subsequent deals.

Once again, we will begin by assessing the cost breakdown of the Rafale deal signed by the NDA in September 2016 for 36 units (we will use US dollars for ease of comparison but it should be noted that the deal was signed in Euros):

Image

Notes
* an identical unit price to that paid by the French armed forces
** such costs are one off and will not be incurred for any future batches.

It should also be noted that the 2016 Rafale deal was for highly advanced versions of the Rafale (F3+) highly customised to operate in Indian conditions whereas the version being negotiated under the original MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) was the F2 version minus any Indian specific upgrades. So we can see from the above that there is no deviation from the stated figures for the deal, every single penny is accounted for. Let’s debunk some more claims, how about the fact that India paid more than the other export customers for the Rafale.

Image

(On 10 March 2018 this graphic appeared on the official Twitter account of India’s main opposition party, @INCIndia)

The reality could not be more contrary:

Image

So even though India signed its deal at a later date than the other export customers, when the INR value was significantly higher, it was able to pay less per unit than either Egypt or Qatar whilst at the same time being able to secure a 50% offsets package that will mean that the French side will invest fifty percent the value of the entire deal back into India. Additionally, the IAF (Indian Air Force) deal includes far superior jets to those of the Egyptian and Qatari air forces that are customized to Indian conditions.

Significantly, points of departure from the original MMRCA deal that the UPA had first proposed in 2008 and the NDA’s Rafale deal includes the addition of the world-class weapons systems such as the feared METEOR beyond visual air to air missile (BVRAAM), perhaps the world’s most deadly BVRAAM with a range in excess of 150km and the SCALP air-launched cruise missile (ALCM). Additionally, the NDA was able to secure 50% offsets as opposed to 30% for the MMRCA, the inclusion of a PBL and perhaps most significantly technical assistance for India’s troubled turbofan project, Kaveri.

Offsets

With a fifty percent offset obligation under the NDA deal the French side will be investing almost €4 billion into India. This vast sum of money that will benefit the nation’s aerospace industry immensely and a portion of offsets will be invested in a new joint venture between DA (Dassault Aviation) and Reliance defence; DRAL (Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited). DRAL will not only create massive job opportunities at its newly constructed greenfield facilities in Mihan but will provide a dedicated localized supply chain for the Rafale on Indian soil. Another exceptionally beneficial point is the news that DA intends to place DRAL inside its global supply chain for their world-renowned business jet, Falcon. Thus, India will be in the possession to be part of yet another globally recognized “Tier 1” supplier in the lucrative aerospace industry.

Based on news reports it is clear that the original mandate of MMRCA wherein a dedicated fighter jet production line would be set up locally is still a possibility– as long as India orders more Rafales. This would involve expanding DRAL’s facilities into a standalone Rafale production line with the capacity to produce 16-18 Rafales per annum. This would see India create its first ever aircraft production line outside of the public sector, and here again, the deal diverges from MMRCA as the original MMRCA plan was for HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) to receive the contract for local assembly. For seventy years India has been without serious capacity in the aerospace industry within the private sector that extends beyond sub-assembly production, this is all set to change within the next few years and the ramifications for this cannot be understated. Creating a competitor to HAL in India assisted by one of the world’s premier OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) will have lasting effects for generations to come.

Performance Based Logistics (PBL)

The 2016 NDA Rafale deal includes a comprehensive Performance Based Logistics (PBL) agreement wherein Dassault Aviation (DA) is legally obligated to assure that 75% of the IAF’s Rafale fleet is available for operations at any given moment in time. For comparison, in 2015 the IAF’s SU-30MKI fighter fleet had an availability rate of less than 50% (now should be closer to 60% thanks to measures sanctioned by former defence minister Manohar Parrikar) and the Indian Navy’s premier fighter, the Russian-built MiG-29K, had even lower availability rates than this.

Kaveri

The French are already working to assist with the DRDO’s advanced but plagued turbofan engine, Kaveri, with a view of completing the work so as to be able to fit into a number of current and future platforms that will be both manned and unmanned. The French engine manufacturer, Safran, indicated that 25-30% more work would be needed to make the Kaveri flight-worthy. According to the deal being offered, India would not need to spend any more developmental money on the project and Safran would take on the investment around EUR 1 billion to revive India’s Kaveri project committing to make the Kaveri flight-worthy within 18 months. The proposal is to integrate the upgraded Kaveri with the Mk-1A version of the Light Combat Aircraft by 2020.

Furthermore, the NDA Rafale deal was also able to secure an agreement to train the first batches of IAF pilots and ground technicians in France free of cost with an additional guarantee for 60 hours of usage of training aircraft for Indian pilots and six months of free weapons storage without charge.

With the significant investments made by the IAF for their Rafales, it would be truly unthinkable that the number would be capped at 36 or even 72 units. For the enormous customisation and basing costs to be justified significant follow-on orders need to be placed but there is no doubt that such orders would benefit immensely from these new conditions. The Indian Navy, in particular, is now in a strong position to take advantage of the investments made by the IAF as they could pool training costs, spares management and operational procedure. To fail to take advantage of such investments by selecting another foreign fighter for the navy or perhaps an even more unjustifiable purchase such as a foreign single-engine jet fighter would be unpalatable and a true insult to the Indian taxpayer.

So where is the scam?

Every single penny is accounted for, the deal abides by the contours of DPP-2016 and we can categorically state that the deal the present govt signed was superior to that of the one that had been proposed under MMRCA as the technical benefits specifically for the Kaveri and LCA projects are immense. Under the MMRCA deal, there had been no such obligation to support local strategic projects. Furthermore, there are strong rumours that the confidential IGA (Inter-Governmental Agreement) signed by the two governments in January 2016 contained an understanding that France would assist in a number of strategic projects of India that go far beyond aerospace. The biggest drawback of the NDA’s Rafale deal is that such few orders were placed; 36 against a total requirement of 189 units (126+ 63 unit follow-on clause). This can be addressed by additional follow-on batches but this has yet to be solidified and with each passing day the IAF’s existing strength depletes further.

It should be noted here that the French officials as senior as the French President andCEO of Dassault Aviation, Mr Eric Trappier, have as recently as the 10th March 2018 reiterated that India’s Rafale deal is fully compliant with Indian and French laws and procedures. Critically, the most significant difference between the MMRCA deal and NDA’s Rafale deal is that the latter is a pure Government to Government (GTG) deal. The significance of this is that a GTG, as opposed to a commercial deal, involves the governments of India and France and their relevant ministries coordinating with each other to come to an agreement on the sale of military equipment. As such, in a GTG deal, there is no scope for “middlemen” or graft and all agreements have to abide by the most stringent conditions and scrutiny imaginable given the fact that the prestige and credibility of both nations are at stake.

Political mudslinging may have become the norm across the political landscape and thus many may have become desensitized to such nefarious campaigns, however, when it comes to defence procurements, these intellectual arguments can have a very real and very damaging effect. Let us not forget the lessons of the past. The Bofors scandal had a lasting impact far beyond the political cost to a particular political party, from the year the last FH77B gun had been inducted into the army (around the late 1980s) until this very year not a single artillery piece had been ordered, meanwhile, India’s enemies had been able to procure thousands of very sophisticated systems. It should not be forgotten that these controversial weapons were declared “saviours” during the 1999 Kargil war but the availability of such weapons was found insufficient. It would be beyond unfortunate for us to encounter such a situation again, where we all are the baby to be thrown out of the bath water and where we find ourselves in need of vastly more Rafales at the exact moment when we need them most.

The accusations against the 2016 Rafale deal whilst clearly devoid of any merit perhaps mark a low point in the political discourse our country has encountered in recent times as not only does this unfairly penalize our own military’s efforts to modernize but as this deal is GTG it puts relations with one of our most critical strategic partners under undue strain as it is an attack on the character of the French military export procedure mechanism. Thus the fallout could not only be harmful to our own military but to our strategic interests.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Mar 2018 18:07

Armtwisting the IN to go the IAF way as one point in justification for the deal is specious.Why not the reverse? Get the IAF to buy the land version of the latest Fulcrum , at around just $35M or even the TVC MIG-35 at around $40M, just 25% the cost of a single Rafale and perhaps equally capable!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2018 18:11

Philip, the IAF wants no more Russian platforms. They have had enough of them.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 17 Mar 2018 18:49

srai wrote:^^^
Highly doubt Meteor on Mirage-2000. Weapon integration is a time consuming exercise; hence, costly. Who will pay for it?


The weapon package was signed seperately by IAF for $1.2B. The radar and missile both are of french origin. FAF still flies many M2000 (and derivative of RDY-2). That integration would have already happenned. I believe IAF may have paid fees and some fixed cost towards integration to get those missiles. Not a hard thing. I suspect our M2000 are also Meteor capabale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 17 Mar 2018 19:09

fanne wrote:The weapon package was signed seperately by IAF for $1.2B. The radar and missile both are of french origin. FAF still flies many M2000 (and derivative of RDY-2). That integration would have already happenned. I believe IAF may have paid fees and some fixed cost towards integration to get those missiles. Not a hard thing. I suspect our M2000 are also Meteor capabale.

AFAIK the AdlA Mirages are only cleared for MICAs. Also the French are only retaining the Mirage 2000Ds, which is equipped with the Antilope 5 radar rather than the RDY-2 (Mirage 2000-5s are being retired altogether) - and since even the Ds will be phased out within a decade, its not cost effective to integrate the Meteor to them either.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 17 Mar 2018 19:13

Rakesh wrote:Philip, the IAF wants no more Russian platforms. They have had enough of them.


Including additional MKIs ?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2018 20:01

No more *NEW* type Russian platforms. My bad. What capability does the MiG-35 offer to the IAF, other than poor serviceability? No to MiG-35 and no to Su-57. What costs cheaper upfront, will cost more during the life of the bird. The IAF learnt that lesson well with the entire MiG series (-21, -23, -25, -27 and -29) and even with the Su-30MKI. The IN is now experiencing what the IAF has been enjoying for the past 55 years, when the first in the MiG series (-21) joined the IAF in 1963.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Viv S » 17 Mar 2018 20:05

Karthik S wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Philip, the IAF wants no more Russian platforms. They have had enough of them.


Including additional MKIs ?

Apparently. The two additional squadrons mentioned by the ACM seemed to have been a reference to pending deliveries by HAL.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby SaiK » 17 Mar 2018 21:20

Well, Modi Sarkar allowed a bucket full of ice-cold water to be poured on them... so essentially, that is a scam! we shall revisit scam thread for 2019 again. :mrgreen: But, what it brings out is good details for rakshaks to get oped deal facts.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Mar 2018 22:02

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/975 ... 59201?s=21 —> “Opposition is crying there’s a scam in Rafale. There’s no scam in it. Search, dig as much as you want.” ~ Defence Minister.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 17 Mar 2018 23:54

Philip wrote:Armtwisting the IN to go the IAF way as one point in justification for the deal is specious.Why not the reverse? Get the IAF to buy the land version of the latest Fulcrum , at around just $35M or even the TVC MIG-35 at around $40M, just 25% the cost of a single Rafale and perhaps equally capable!


First make the MiG-29K perform as advertised, then peddle any land based versions to the IAF. :roll:

Here we have the IN asking ADA to fix the MiG-29K's defects because it seems that MiG isn't going to be doing it. And you talk about MiG-35s, which as we speak, lacks an AESA radar, forget TVC.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 18 Mar 2018 05:42

Katarina 's Cockpit
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2018 00:52

Rafale provides the IAF strategic deterrence against our adversaries: Air Chief
http://bharatshakti.in/rafale-provides- ... air-chief/

Q. What do the Rafales enable the IAF to do that it hasn’t been doing so far? What are its special skills?

CAS: The Rafale is an omni-role aircraft and the version being supplied to India will have better operational capabilities than the Rafale being operated by the French Air Force and other Air Forces. The aircraft has a low turnaround time which enables higher mission exploitation. Also, the Rafale for IAF will have several India specific requirements. The IAF Rafale will be equipped with enhanced radars, avionics and other on board equipment. The IAF Rafale will also be equipped with advanced Beyond Visual Range and short to medium range Air to Air missile and precision guided Air to Ground missiles, which will enhance the capability of the Air Force and also provide strategic deterrence vis-à-vis our adversaries.

Q. When will the induction of Rafales begin?

CAS: Delivery of the Rafale aircraft and associated equipment will commence from September 2019 and will be spread over two and half years with the last aircraft delivery scheduled in April 2022.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 15 Apr 2018 01:53

Syria fired 40 missiles 'at nothing' after allied air strikes destroyed three Assad chemical sites
https://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-claim ... 08590.html

Meanwhile, the French scrambled Mirage and Rafale fighter jets for their part in the Syrian air strikes together with four frigate warships, launching a total of 12 cruise missiles.The multi-purpose Rafale is used for reconnaissance, ground support as well as air strikes. It is capable of carrying missiles of a similar capability to the Storm Shadows used by the UK.Alongside the Rafale, France deployed its supersonic Mirage 2000 fighter jets - which have a maximum speed of Mach 2.Both jets have the capacity to carry missiles capable of reaching their Syrian targets without entering Syrian airspace.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 16 Apr 2018 07:49

It is capable of carrying missiles of a similar capability to the Storm Shadows used by the UK


It is the same missile as carried by RAF Tornados

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby JayS » 16 Apr 2018 12:01

Prem wrote:Airware tit bits of Rafale


What a beauty.

What would be the CAP mission radius/on station time specs for this config...??

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Prem » 18 Apr 2018 03:45

Ravishing Rude Rafale!
Image

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby pandyan » 18 Apr 2018 06:41

Prem wrote:Katarina 's Cockpit
Image

Tablet showing route map is windows based :shock:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Apr 2018 10:33

^^
1. Only on brf
2. there is a possibility it might have been rooted and customized version being used.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Chinmay » 18 Apr 2018 13:36

pandyan wrote:
Prem wrote:Katarina 's Cockpit
Image

Tablet showing route map is windows based :shock:


It's called the FlightSphere

Based on a smaller customised version of the Microsoft Surface tab, the FlightSphere tab is a full personal mission and flight planning system for fighter pilots. Pilots will use the tab offline to conduct all tactical mission planning, then carry it with them into the cockpit where it plugs right into the aircraft’s mission computer. The system is being designed to be carried in a flightsuit pocket on the pilot’s lap.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 18 Apr 2018 23:25

That kind of personal pilot mission and flight planning software for loading on a tab could be easily developed by an Indian software company. Infosys for instance has a lot of experience developing pilot electronic log book and flight book for the Boeing 787. Something like that would be very useful for pilots across all IAF combat fighter types. Buying it from Dassault would cost a lot more than developing it in India with the IAF actively managing and guiding the Indian software teams on the requirements.

But as usual, as per Livefist, IAF was impressed with the FlightSphere and was looking into purchasing it. livefist article link

Adding to the increasing app/tab quality that imbues modern fighter training is the very nifty system you see here: the FlightSphere pilot’s tablet system currently under final development for the Rafale, and to be offered to the Indian Air Force once ready. Based on a smaller customised version of the Microsoft Surface tab, the FlightSphere tab is a full personal mission and flight planning system for fighter pilots. Pilots will use the tab offline to conduct all tactical mission planning, then carry it with them into the cockpit where it plugs right into the aircraft’s mission computer. The system is being designed to be carried in a flightsuit pocket on the pilot’s lap. Showcased for the first time at the Paris Air Show this year, the FlightSphere is already active with the Dassault Falcon and will be soon with the Rafale. The Indian Air Force is understood to have already shown interest.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Apr 2018 10:09

Dassault Reports Rafale Progress in India
by Neelam Mathews
- April 19, 2018, 10:01 AM

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ress-india
The training of Indian pilots and maintenance personnel in preparation for delivery of Rafale fighters is in progress in France, Dassault Aviation chairman and CEO Eric Trappier told AIN in describing progress with the Indian air force contract for 36 Rafale fighters. He also commented on the latest Indian request for information (RFI) for more new fighters while visiting India as head of a delegation from the French Aerospace Industries Association (French acronym: GIFAS). However, Trappier made only passing reference to the financial and legal troubles that have recently beset the Reliance Group, Dassault’s partner in India for the Rafale contract.

In addition to the training in France, India is preparing a hangar at the Reliance Defence facility at Nagpur, where parts for the Rafale are being made, with deliveries to start this year. Dassault Aviation has started looking for more offset partners. Major subcontractors to the French manufacturer that have already tied up with Indian companies include engine maker Safran and Dassault Systèmes, providing 3D modeling and product lifecycle management (PLM) software. Thales announced last year it would develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain the radar and electronic warfare sensors at the Nagpur facility along with an Indian supply chain for manufacturing microwave technologies and high performance airborne electronics.

Currently, the Reliance Group's flagship company, Reliance Communications, is embroiled in court cases brought by minority shareholders, and stemming from its inability to repay lenders. The group has debts of $18 billion. A senior official at the Indian MoD has questioned the status of Reliance Defence, since the MoD’s Defense Procurement Policy is very strict on the credit rating of vendors. However, a Reliance official at the Nagpur facility told AIN: “The legal case has nothing to do with Reliance Defence, which is a part of [a separate] subsidiary, Reliance Infrastructure.”

Trappier said that Dassault is busy responding to the recently released RFI for 110 more fighters. The request cites 75 percent of these as single-seaters and the remainder as two-seaters. A maximum of 15 percent of the aircraft would be delivered in a flyaway state, with the remainder to be made in India by a Strategic Partner/Indian Production Agency. The current RFI dropped an earlier stipulation that the new fighters be single-engine.

But the Dassault chief declined to confirm that Reliance would be the partner in bidding for the 110 fighters. “There is a process of the RFI, and we will see at the time of the Request for Proposal…there is nothing as of now,” he said. “We need a variety of other suppliers [and] we are ready to transfer technology, because my government supports this and our own commitment to India,” he added.

Trappier also noted that the Indian Navy requirement for 57 carrier-capable fighters would be best met by the Rafale naval variant. However, the seaborne Rafale currently used by the French is built for CATOBAR operations (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). The Indian Navy's current aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya and the forthcoming Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 are designed for STOBAR operations (short takeoff but arrested recovery).


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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Austin » 20 Apr 2018 10:11

If Rafale win the RFI for 110 fighter and 57 Carrier Capable fighter then we will have standardisation of Navy and IAF fleet of about 200 + fighters and this will serve IAF well for the next 40 years.

Logistics is the key to keep operating cost low and purchasing Rafale a capable fighter will do the needful

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 20 Apr 2018 17:49

^^^
That would cost $30 billion!

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karthik S » 20 Apr 2018 18:07

^^ Over a period of how many years??

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Apr 2018 22:45

srai wrote:^^^
That would cost $30 billion!

And the Govt believes they have the money to afford 110 fighters for the Indian Air Force and 57 fighters for the Indian Navy. Good for them :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 20 Apr 2018 22:56

Austin wrote:Dassault Reports Rafale Progress in India
by Neelam Mathews

Disclaimer - I am wary of the author. I have read some of his earlier pieces and they are questionable.

In addition to the training in France, India is preparing a hangar at the Reliance Defence facility at Nagpur, where parts for the Rafale are being made, with deliveries to start this year. Dassault Aviation has started looking for more offset partners. Major subcontractors to the French manufacturer that have already tied up with Indian companies include engine maker Safran and Dassault Systèmes, providing 3D modeling and product lifecycle management (PLM) software. Thales announced last year it would develop Indian capabilities to integrate and maintain the radar and electronic warfare sensors at the Nagpur facility along with an Indian supply chain for manufacturing microwave technologies and high performance airborne electronics.

+1000008 :)

But the Dassault chief declined to confirm that Reliance would be the partner in bidding for the 110 fighters. “There is a process of the RFI, and we will see at the time of the Request for Proposal…there is nothing as of now,” he said. “We need a variety of other suppliers [and] we are ready to transfer technology, because my government supports this and our own commitment to India,” he added.

I would not be surprised if they rope in HAL for this. HAL is going to have a field day. First Boeing and there could be others. HAL is not bound by any contract that they can build only Boeing fighters. May the best win. HAL should tie up with all of them - LM, Boeing, Dassault, Saab, RSK MiG and Eurofighter consortium.

A Dassault bid could be HAL-Reliance-Dassault, just like HAL-Mahindra-Boeing.

Trappier also noted that the Indian Navy requirement for 57 carrier-capable fighters would be best met by the Rafale naval variant. However, the seaborne Rafale currently used by the French is built for CATOBAR operations (catapult assisted takeoff but arrested recovery). The Indian Navy's current aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya and the forthcoming Indigenous Aircraft Carrier-1 are designed for STOBAR operations (short takeoff but arrested recovery).

The author realizes the limitations of a ski-jump carrier versus a CATOBAR. If Dassault wins the naval fighter contest, no EMALS will come. We will be then going to the French for a steam catapult like on the Charles De Gaulle.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 20 Apr 2018 23:58

Rakesh wrote:The author realizes the limitations of a ski-jump carrier versus a CATOBAR. If Dassault wins the naval fighter contest, no EMALS will come. We will be then going to the French for a steam catapult like on the Charles De Gaulle.


CDG is equipped with catapult from US of A..

"CDG is a CATOBAR-type carrier that uses two 75 m C13‑3 steam catapults of a shorter version of the catapult system installed on the U.S. Nimitz-class aircraft carriers, one catapult at the bow and one across the front of the landing area.[7] Charles de Gaulle is the only non-American carrier-vessel that has a catapult, allowing operation of American aircraft such as the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet[9] and the C-2 Greyhound.[10][11]"

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 21 Apr 2018 02:34

Cybaru wrote:CDG is equipped with catapult from US of A..

Aiyoo! My bad. F-18 for the Navy it is then :lol:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 21 Apr 2018 12:56

Karthik S wrote:^^ Over a period of how many years??

That $30 billion would be the initial acquisition cost which includes aircraft (110 + 57), 5-year PBL, base infrastructure and training. Some weapon package would be part of it. Paid a portion upfront once contract signed and then annual installments as per deliveries, infrastructure build and PBL. Ongoing operational costs, other lifecycle costs, minor upgrades and MLU would be extra on top.


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