VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 28 Jul 2020 23:22

pandyan wrote:Question: if original MRCA 126 M2Ks were available and assuming they were upgraded to current M2K-India standards, would you still need Rafales to handle china threat? I know this is a silly question. I am suspecting that Rafale would still be needed.

We would have had 7 additional fully operational squadrons of a potent 4.5 gen multi-role fighter which the IAF knows extremely well. So no. I do not believe we would have needed them. Especially since 5 newly arrived Rafales which are not fully operational yet will have no bearing on the Ladakh situation as it stands currently.

Bhaskar_T · Post by **Bhaskar_T** » 29 Jul 2020 00:20

Some unconfirmed reports that Iranian Missiles landed about 15 nautical miles away from the UAE airport where Indian Rafale's are parked.

@TheWolfPackIn - More than 15 nautical miles away though.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 45889?s=19

@Skywatcher_IND - BREAKING - Three Iranian missiles landed very close to the base in UAE where Indian Rafales are currently parked

https://twitter.com/Anakin_IAF/status/1 ... 59392?s=19

@lucastomnilson- Two bases in Middle East housing U.S. troops and aircraft went on high alert when 3 Iranian missiles splashed down in waters near the bases Tues. as part of Iran’s military exercises: official

Missiles landed "close enough" to Al Dhafra in UAE and Al Udeid in Qatar for concern.

https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status ... 27808?s=19

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 29 Jul 2020 02:07

nachiket wrote: Especially since 5 newly arrived Rafales which are not fully operational yet will have no bearing on the Ladakh situation as it stands currently.

A single Rafale armed with SCALP can take out a PLA radar / SAM site or a command post of the PLA, deep inside occupied Tibet.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Jul 2020 02:49

Get those birds out and take them to Bhuj or Jamnagar AFS before USAF or IrAF make the region a no fly zone.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Jul 2020 02:50

eklavya wrote:
nachiket wrote: Especially since 5 newly arrived Rafales which are not fully operational yet will have no bearing on the Ladakh situation as it stands currently.
A single Rafale armed with SCALP can take out a PLA radar / SAM site or a command post of the PLA, deep inside occupied Tibet.

The Derby/Python on any number of existing aircraft can do the same.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jul 2020 02:58

Mort Walker wrote:
eklavya wrote:
A single Rafale armed with SCALP can take out a PLA radar / SAM site or a command post of the PLA, deep inside occupied Tibet.
The Derby/Python on any number of existing aircraft can do the same.

I don't think the Derby/Python has residual Air to Ground capability. Even if they did, I don't think they would be the most optimal systems for that role given the performance limitations.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 29 Jul 2020 03:18

Mort Walker wrote:
The Derby/Python on any number of existing aircraft can do the same.

They are both air to air missiles Derby range is 60 km and python 5 range is 20 kilometers with 15 kg warhead.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Jul 2020 03:33

eklavya wrote:
A single Rafale armed with SCALP can take out a PLA radar / SAM site or a command post of the PLA, deep inside occupied Tibet.

You could say the same of of a Single Su-30 armed with a Brahmos and we have 40 of those (the modified variants which can carry the Brahmos). In either of those cases, the location of the site would need to be known precisely because neither of them are anti-radiation missiles and cannot home in on a SAM radar by themselves. They can only guide themselves to a pre-selected target.

I'm not saying the Rafales aren't a welcome addition. I'm just saying teh "game-changing" nature of them won't be realised till we have a decent number of them in country and more importantly a pool of pilots and maintenance persoannel trained and experienced in flying and fighting with them and keeping them up and running.

mmasand · Post by **mmasand** » 29 Jul 2020 05:16

Statement from CENTCOM:
Today "Iran launched several ballistic missiles from Iran to the Southern Arabian Gulf. Initial assessment indicated a potential threat to Al Udeid Air Base & Al Dhafra. Out of an abundance of caution, both bases enacted a heightened alert status. The incident lasted for a matter of minutes, & an all clear was declared after the threat indicator had passed...The US condemns these irresponsible missile launches"

Both the Armée de l'Air & USAF (380th Expeditionary) are based at Al Dhafra AB, the French have a handful of Mirage 2000's based there in addition to the occasional Rafale's that were instrumental in bombing IS arms depots in Libya and Syria. The Americans recently redeployed the 388th's F-35's to the base, as far as I know it isn't protected by Patriot permanently.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Jul 2020 05:55

brar_w wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
The Derby/Python on any number of existing aircraft can do the same.
I don't think the Derby/Python has residual Air to Ground capability. Even if they did, I don't think they would be the most optimal systems for that role given the performance limitations.

I thought there was a air launched anti-radiation variant? On a ground based radar, all you need to do is take out the antenna.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jul 2020 05:58

An air launched Anti Radiation variant of WVR missile. Haven't seen it and not easy to squeeze in an ARM seeker into a WVR weapon while still staying outside the SAM bubble. Just a bad idea all around.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Jul 2020 06:12

^^^I thought there was some Rafale Systems variant of the AGM-88 that was the Python or Derby. Sorry if I am mistaken.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2020 06:26

abhik wrote:An official word on when the next set are going to land? As per the press release the rest of the fighters will be delivered by the end of next year i.e. 30+1 over the next ~1.5 years => on average 5 fighters every quarter, so we could see ~10 by year end (or Jan/Feb next year).

Most informative post.

basant · Post by **basant** » 29 Jul 2020 07:57

nachiket wrote:You could say the same of of a Single Su-30 armed with a Brahmos and we have 40 of those (the modified variants which can carry the Brahmos).

I think modified Su-30s were shown to be capable to launch Brahmos. How many such platforms are actually available (Sq. Tiger Sharks) , we don't know. Probably 5 to 10.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Jul 2020 09:12

Ambala have received it's Guests !

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Jul 2020 09:39

Prem wrote:Ambala have received it's Guests !

NDTV was saying around 3PM IST on 29 JUL 2020.

Punjabi · Post by **Punjabi** » 29 Jul 2020 09:57

Stupid question...how would they come to India...flying over Oinkistaan? or another route! Thanks.

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 29 Jul 2020 10:04

Punjabi wrote:Stupid question...how would they come to India...flying over Oinkistaan? or another route! Thanks.

There is a map flying around on twitter supposedly showing their flight path though can't find it anymore. Essentially they're tracing the southern and western border of pakiland with some buffer.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 29 Jul 2020 10:58

News X reporting that there was a BM attack by Iran near al dhafra and isf rafale pilots had to take cover

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2020 11:07

I think this more or less confirms, Iranian Ballistic missiles are of Chinese origin.

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 29 Jul 2020 11:42

abhishekm wrote:OK, this is seriously getting silly: https://www.rediff.com/news/report/rafa ... 200728.htm

From this article, the following: BJP's Ambala City MLA Aseem Goyal urged to people to light candles in their homes between 7-7:30 pm on Wednesday to welcome the Rafale jets.

All hail the great white man's creations which will deliver salvation for the wretched SDREs!

Our moronic DDM has outdone itself. Especially the Hindi news channels. ABP Live today afternoon was passing off F-16s as Rafales. They were playing this on loop. For an entire show. I know DDM types can't differentiate between a horse and an aircraft but how much worse can it get?

Oh, wow! That is way overboard.

That being, I am happy Rafales are getting national coverage. Other than folks closely following defense, families with their near and dear in the armed forces, and people near the border areas, not many pay attention to our defense preparedness. Hope such news and coverage fans awareness and interest, and the wave is sustained and builds up for our desi systems.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 29 Jul 2020 12:13

I'm glad that rafale arrival is getting such mass media coverage. If nothing, it'll give some great PR to the air force and encourage the youth to serve the nation even more.

Though, I'm somewhat disappointed that the LCA, despite being our very own never received such coverage during any of its landmark events. That's perhaps reflected in our mindset which values phoren Maal much more than desi efforts. Unfortunately some of it also permiates into the armed forces procurement mindset.

manish singh · Post by **manish singh** » 29 Jul 2020 12:27

nachiket wrote:
eklavya wrote:A single Rafale armed with SCALP can take out a PLA radar / SAM site or a command post of the PLA, deep inside occupied Tibet.
You could say the same of of a Single Su-30 armed with a Brahmos and we have 40 of those (the modified variants which can carry the Brahmos). In either of those cases, the location of the site would need to be known precisely because neither of them are anti-radiation missiles and cannot home in on a SAM radar by themselves. They can only guide themselves to a pre-selected target.

I'm not saying the Rafales aren't a welcome addition. I'm just saying teh "game-changing" nature of them won't be realised till we have a decent number of them in country and more importantly a pool of pilots and maintenance persoannel trained and experienced in flying and fighting with them and keeping them up and running.

I am just a lurker and have no knowledge of these matters, but based on Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar's interview below, from 8:07 onwards, even with just 5 Rafales, as far as enemy is concerned, every intruding IAF fighter could be a Rafale due to which the enemy will have to re-engineer its tactics to cater for the Rafale as the serious threat that it is.

Also, the passion with which Air Marshal speaks about Tejas towards the end of the interview is amazing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Jul 2020 12:31

Even these 5 will be game changers.
Each can carry 4 Meteor with 130km effective range. Thats 20 missiles.

In 1965 FizzleYa had 12 F104 which impacted IAF tactics.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Jul 2020 12:33

manish singh wrote:
nachiket wrote:
I am just a lurker and have no knowledge of these matters, but based on Air Marshal Raghunath Nambiar's interview below, from 8:07 onwards, even with just 5 Rafales, as far as enemy is concerned, every intruding IAF fighter could be a Rafale due to which the enemy will have to re-engineer its tactics to cater for the Rafale as the serious threat that it is.

Dont think it's true, identification is done by electronic signatures, not just a "radar blip" .

manish singh · Post by **manish singh** » 29 Jul 2020 12:42

kit wrote: Dont think it's true, identification is done by electronic signatures, not just a "radar blip" .

Probably the Air Marshal meant that these 5 Rafales could intrude anywhere, so the enemy will have to re-engineer its tactics across all its affected assets assuming that Rafale could hit them.

Once, Rafale intrudes, I leave it to the knowledge of members of this forum, on how easy it is to identify type of aircraft. But, even assuming that the enemy can immediately detect that the intruding aircraft is Rafale, it still doesn't change the fact that it would have to re-engineer its tactics beforehand to be able to adequately defend itself against Rafale.

Question is how long will it take China to re-engineer its tactics and augment its defenses to account for Rafale.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 29 Jul 2020 13:26

manish singh wrote:
kit wrote: Dont think it's true, identification is done by electronic signatures, not just a "radar blip" .
Probably the Air Marshal meant that these 5 Rafales could intrude anywhere, so the enemy will have to re-engineer its tactics across all its affected assets assuming that Rafale could hit them.

Once, Rafale intrudes, I leave it to the knowledge of members of this forum, on how easy it is to identify type of aircraft. But, even assuming that the enemy can immediately detect that the intruding aircraft is Rafale, it still doesn't change the fact that it would have to re-engineer its tactics beforehand to be able to adequately defend itself against Rafale.

Question is how long will it take China to re-engineer its tactics and augment its defenses to account for Rafale.

looks like now PAF will have to fly over iran and afghanistan as part of tactics re engineering !! and once S400 comes in ..maybe over Iraq??

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 29 Jul 2020 13:56

imo chinis wouldn't be too worried about Rafales. Given our gandhian attitude, we're unlikely to intrude except for a war. In case of which, one assumes, they would be adequately prepared since they control the escalation ladder.

It's the pakis who would be feeling the real burn especially since after Balakot we've showed that from now on there will be surprise visits to find the naughty people

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 29 Jul 2020 15:00

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 1508359177

The Birds have entered the Indian airspace..Happy Landing in Ambala!
@IAF_MCC

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 29 Jul 2020 15:28

Enthusiasm in air, among Ambala residents before touchdown of Rafale at airbase

As per information the residents are enthusiastic about arrival and they are planning celebration with distribution of sweets, dancing on drum beats, leaving balloons in the air and turning their house lights on between 7 to 7.30 pm in the evening.

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Jul 2020 15:44

The Su30 was armed..

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2020 15:52

nam wrote:The Su30 was armed..

They were probably escorting the Rafales from Oman Airspace to Indian Airspace so PAF cannot try its tricks, even INS Kolkota was positioned to intercept as the Rafales probably flying ferry Range with just a couple of MICA IR each

nam · Post by **nam** » 29 Jul 2020 16:00

Rafale's were not armed. Countries don't allow foreign jets to fly with weapons in their airspace.

The escorts were obviously to prevent the PAF jokers are trying out tricks. Unarmed Rafale would have been sitting ducks for a PR nuisance.

Imagine the uproar if few JF17/F16 managed to fly next to it over international waters.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 29 Jul 2020 16:04

Touchdown of Rafale at Ambala: https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 3173234690

Watercanon salute: https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 2484404225

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 29 Jul 2020 16:32

Really dumb of the person on Twitter to mistake a drop tank for a missile, still VishalJ patiently clarifies.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 29 Jul 2020 17:33

Doesnt matter. More people should be interested in defense. More kids needs to take up aeronautics & propulsion. We need a whole bunch of new companies to cater to the various sectors in domestic market.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 29 Jul 2020 17:39

Neela wrote:Doesnt matter. More people should be interested in defense. More kids needs to take up aeronautics & propulsion. We need a whole bunch of new companies to cater to the various sectors in domestic market.

Here here
a post to enshrine and keep as a model.

The essence of BR Forums

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 29 Jul 2020 18:15

I have never seen such ridiculous coverage of a fighter jet handover to India as rafale. The indian media and the hundreds of YouTube Indian defence expert channels have set a record for bizarre behaviour which puts even the nerds to shame.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 29 Jul 2020 18:20

Now at least(due to less number of Rafales) enemy AWACS and Refuellers needs to be more cautious of METEORS flying in the sky!!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Jul 2020 18:27

nvishal wrote:I have never seen such ridiculous coverage of a fighter jet handover to India as rafale. The indian media and the hundreds of YouTube Indian defence expert channels have set a record for bizarre behaviour which puts even the nerds to shame.

the hans must be quaking in the boots.

we will now win every war for the next two centuries

All it needs is a suicide missioned "head master's son" type of guy with an el cheapo shoulder fired thingee to puncuture India's balloon and thereafter watch the media cockroaches and other snake oil politicos baying for Modi's blood.

This massive OTT effort has been purposely hyped up and slyly orchestrated by the hostile media and sold out venal "defence experts" to set the stage for anyone willing to do the dirty.