VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Dec 2017 00:10

To be very honest, I can't remember the exact details of the situation now. Either the A2g modes were not fully developed and so the scalp couldn't be used or these modes were removed for some reason. Or wait those could've been the Taiwanese birds.

But yes, they would still be worth it for the iaf to pick up. Not too long ago the French were going to sell some 2000-5 to the Colombians for about 500million.

I think investing a couple of billion here including some uae mirages would take care of iaf short-term needs for sure.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 03:13

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 5608134656 ---> Indian Air Force will send a batch of hand-picked pilots and technicians to train on the Rafale warplanes at the Mont-de-Marsan air base in southwestern France next year to prepare the ground for inducting, reported.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 16 Dec 2017 04:21

Cain Marko wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Those Qatari Mirage-2000-5s won't be needing upgrades. They're Mirage-2000-5s. Their standard should be a couple notches lower than the Mirage-2000I, but respectable enough to keep them as is till they retire in another 20 years. Type commonality must be very high anyway.

It makes even more sense now, since we've bought the MICA IR and EM variants for the Mirage-2000I and Rafale fleet. The Qataris had originally offered their stocks of MICAs as well with the sale.
.

IIRC, they are only wired for A2A modes unlike the dash 5/9 or the iaf standard. But they would still be a very worthwhile purchase, if available


No such thing. Quite the opposite in fact. Qatar's Mirages were in fact the first Mirage-2000-5s to be qualified for air to ground role as well.

From FG archives

DASSAULT AVIATION has delivered the first three of 12 Mirage 2000-5 fighters to Qatar from its factory in Merignac, Bordeaux, as it continues to battle to win a major order for up to 80 aircraft from the United Arab Emirates (UAE). The versions delivered to Qatar are the first to be qualified for air to-ground missions as well as for the original Mirage 2000-5's air defence role. The aircraft come from a production line which is already engaged in the delivery of 60 air-defence variants to Taiwan. Qatar is understood to have paid for air-to-ground qualification of its aircraft, indicating a likely purchase of French air-to-surface weaponry.

Dassault, however, declines to reveal which air-to ground weapons have been, or may be, purchased by Qatar. The Qatari Mirage 2000-5s were shown with an export version of the Matra BAe Dynamics Apache runway-denial/cruise missile, called the Black Pearl, during the Qatar delivery celebration on 8 September. Since the contract was concluded in 1994, Matra has consistently refused to comment on claims that a variant of the Apache was included in the Qatari deal. The three aircraft delivered initially to Qatar will be used for training Qatari Emiri air force pilots at the French air force's training centre at Mont St Marsan.

The battle for the order from the UAE is being fought against Lockheed Martin, offering the proposed Block 60 variant of the F-16, and Eurofighter, with its EF2000. Dassault is proposing both the Rafale and the -9 version of the Mirage 2000.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 16 Dec 2017 04:31

^thanks for clarifying that about the qatari birds. Was a bit confused between the 5f, -9, and the Taiwanese issue.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Dec 2017 05:59

^^ I seriously believe with Qatari mirage's, French jaguar and Malaysian mig-29 upgraded, we can live with till lca comes in number and qualitative abilities and be done with they SEF crap.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 16 Dec 2017 06:04

krishna_krishna wrote:^^ I seriously believe with Qatari mirage's, French jaguar and Malaysian mig-29 upgraded, we can live with till lca comes in number and qualitative abilities and be done with they SEF crap.


French jags were for parts only no saar?

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 06:14

Video:

Antony didn't understand process, messed up deal, says former Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/video/rafa ... 92543.html

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 06:35

IAF inches closer to inducting Rafales, but hurdles remain
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... 5aPoO.html

Experts have warned that the smaller Rafale order falls short of the IAF’s requirement of medium-weight fighters. Top IAF officials said India could explore the possibility of buying two additional Rafale squadrons but there’s nothing on the table yet.

The count of the IAF’s fighter squadrons has reduced to 33 compared to an optimum strength of 42-plus units required to fight a two-front war. Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia (retd), a former Western Air Command chief, listed a combined threat from China and Pakistan as a top concern. “It’s a serious issue that needs to be looked into,” he said, making a strong case for ordering 36 more Rafale fighters.

Also, 32 more Sukhois are likely to be inducted by 2020.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 16 Dec 2017 06:47

^^^ Ah the fabled Qatari Mirages again. Elsewhere BRfites are considering retired French Jaguars.

http://www.airport-data.com/images/airc ... 397838.jpg

What is this gene within us that causes us to assume that any sellers would leave vast quantities of hidden unused usability for us second hand purchasers to have gained an 'as new'?

We are cheap on re-equipping the IAF. Any old a/c will do and yet we fail to recognize the ultimate irony: the IAF thought that they get a follow on order for the M2K in 2000 but the Babuz decided that the M2K-5 was a different a/c and insisted on the MMRCA competition. And we know where that led.

Simple math: for the price of not funding Air India ($10 billion) and other zombies, we can fund the the recapitalization of the IAF with new builds.

Its still the blind men of Hindoostan but I have hope.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby krishna_krishna » 16 Dec 2017 06:57

^^cosmo and cybaru Garu there was a typo, it was intended just to say Qatari mirages - French jaguars (mothballed of course) - Malaysian mig 29 upgraded.

I would be happiest person on earth if SEF is crapped, and I also don’t mind addl 36 Rafael’s is we can afford

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 16 Dec 2017 07:11

Cosmo_R wrote:Its still the blind men of Hindoostan but I have hope.


:mrgreen: Oh so condescending ... tch tch tch ... Aren't you the chappie that always keeps touting russian stuff? :rotfl:

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 16 Dec 2017 07:26

Cosmo_R wrote:^^^ Ah the fabled Qatari Mirages again....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&p=2235803#p2235803

It is both ironic and funny that you keep bringing up the 12 Qatari M2Ks as something that we believe will provide a magic solution to the depleting squadron strength in the IAF. These M2Ks are just for bringing the third M2K Sqn (No 9 Wolfpacks) to full strength. If you had bothered to read (which you obviously did not) that post of Kartik's you would realize that. I have posted that link of Kartik's. Do read and spare us your jibes.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Dec 2017 02:19

krishna_krishna wrote:^^ I seriously believe with Qatari mirage's, French jaguar and Malaysian mig-29 upgraded, we can live with till lca comes in number and qualitative abilities and be done with they SEF crap.


The jags are just there for parts. But additional m2ks of dash 5 standard are now available via France. 18 were offered to Colombia for $500 million. Along with the rmaf fulcrums, easy couple of sqds for short term

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cosmo_R » 17 Dec 2017 03:50

Rakesh wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:^^^ Ah the fabled Qatari Mirages again....

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&p=2235803#p2235803

It is both ironic and funny that you keep bringing up the 12 Qatari M2Ks as something that we believe will provide a magic solution to the depleting squadron strength in the IAF. These M2Ks are just for bringing the third M2K Sqn (No 9 Wolfpacks) to full strength. If you had bothered to read (which you obviously did not) that post of Kartik's you would realize that. I have posted that link of Kartik's. Do read and spare us your jibes.


Rakesh. What I am attacking is the short term thinking: its always 'gap fillers'. We have never met a used ac that we didn't like. Used MiGs (during the early 200s it was MiG21s refurbished by Israel), now Malaysian MiG 29s, Jags from France, the evergreen M2K-5s from Qatar.

On the last, do you realize that whole reason we've had this fiasco with the MMRCA and Rafales SE etc has been because MoD (two babus) decided that the M2Ks were a different ac and therefore not eligible for 'follow on' orders? Is it ironic that we are now advocating buying the same (but used) stuff that we could not buy new?

As for topping off the Wolfpacks and other short term thinking, buy more Rafales and convert them. Do you really think that buying used M2K-5s and then doing the usual IAF 'MKIzing' is going to be cheap? That's the funny part. All the good stuff that will come with the Rafale like the Meteor will be prohibitively expensive on the M2K-5. Not just the tech stuff but the renegotiation of critical understandings.

So all in all, the ironic part is that we want to buy used stuff that will kick the can down the road for another few years while robbing the capex for stuff now that will last much longer and will be more capable. The funny part is that is that people think this is going to be cheaper.

As for jibes, I am not going to stop harping on this short term thinking that is so corrosive for any sort of overall strategy. So you are welcome to put me on your ignore list. I don't think you should any longer bear the burden of being arbiter of viewpoints.

Keynes once observed that in the 'long run we are all dead' but as I have observed 'it's the short run that kills you'. That is my central concern.

We have to get over the used Amby/Padmini mentality and equip our forces with an 'unfair advantage'. One Bennedose is tweeting to NS regarding upgraded basic equipment for Jawans. I feel we should the same WRT the IAF. Give them the best and don't rob them of the latest and best by being penny-wise and pound foolish.

Hope this helps

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2017 04:38

Cosmo, are you paying out of pocket for the IAF procuring Rafale's en masse? We'd all like that because clearly, the GOI ain't, at least not now and hence all this charade of SEF and what not.

Rakesh is postulating the Qatari Mirages are good fits for the IAF precisely because they are potent and far less expensive than the Rafales, and will hence boost IAF air power quick, while the GOI budgets for its umpteen requirements including Rafales. That is what many of us have long seen as a quick alternative.

Quite ironic to talk of Bennedose asking for basic requirements while insisting India buy the hugely expensive platinum option, which then bankrupts the budget and ensures troops go without basics while we keep buying gold plated assets and what not, which are of limited use in day to day operations.

Coming to "good stuff coming with the Rafale ie Meteor" - are you aware of the capabilities of the IAFs upgraded Mirage 2000's? Do you think they are useless, so why is the IAF upgrading them?

These Qatari AF aircraft date from 1997. In contrast IAF purchased its Mirages from 1985 onwards. HAL notes that the Mirage 2000 structure is very sound and hence was ideal for a MLU.

Assume it takes around $50 Mn to acquire these Mirage 2000-Vs and upgrade to the new IAF Mirage 2000-V standard.

Even so, they are a fraction of the cost of 12 new build Rafales and will add a hefty capability to the AF. They can offer most of the capability equivalent to the SEF procurement in a much shorter timeframe

In the meantime, the IAF:

http://www.hal-india.com/Tender_Details ... ivkey=Mw==

LOGISTICS SUPPORT FOR SHIFTING OF DECOMMISSIONED JAGUAR AIRCRAFTS FROM CHATEAUDUN AIR BASE FRANCE TO WAREHOUSING FACILITY OF HAL AIRCRAFT DIVISION BANGALORE INDIA


This is entirely sensible.

The IDFAF, despite a long and hefty financing line from the US, your favorite country of procurement choice, keeps as many of its useful fleet active, and with as many upgrades as possible.

The IAF Mirage 2000's today are extremely potent aircraft against the 4th gen fleet operated by PLAAF & TSPAF. With data-networking, and the Mica-IR, they can even have potential against so called stealth aircraft.

As Multi role aircraft, they are superb.
First class radar, wide variety of BVR and CCM options, state of the art nav attack suite with HOTAS+ Autopilot, stable weapons delivery platform plus EW suite for survivability and wide range of A2G munitions.
Range is good, a large number of hardpoints..

We should pick up as many Mirages as possible, if possible, even some of the UAE birds.

Get the LCA line up and running in the meanwhile and keep iterating the design to a Mk2 and then a Mk3 with VLO characteristics. That's what anyone with a proven design would do.

Instead of running around for expensive imports of a handful of new types while ignoring even other sensible options.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 17 Dec 2017 04:43

In the absence of quick acquisition process of new fighters, India should adopt "all of the above" approach. Short term needs can be addressed by getting few more airframe of existing types while waiting on MMRCA/SEF/TEF a decade plus. Not ideal but "Plan C" in play ;)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2017 05:27

The only so called disadvantage of a Mirage 2000 (so called) is its 60 km ranged Mica BVR missile. We can always integrate the Astra instead.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 17 Dec 2017 05:43

And all this about declining aircraft:
The AF has received 8 squadrons of Akash Mk1, another 7 are in price negotiation. Of its remaining SA-3 Goas, all are being upgraded. At its peak IAF had 30 SA-3 squadrons. It is also receiving 9 squadrons of MRSAM, and some 18 batteries of SpyDers - considering each IAF Squadron is 2 flights, i.e. two batteries, that is 9 squadrons of SpyDer. Also the DRDO just developed and demonstrated the Akash 1S, with seeker. So either the 2nd order of Akash will revert to Akash1S, or we will see follow on Akash orders for Akash 1S or Akash NG.
Five battalions of S-400 are also in the procurement pipeline.

My point is while most definitely, the IAF needs more aircraft, its existing BADZE is being strengthened like never before. Each of the SAMs above comes with a significant sensor network as part of the package. Apart from the above, IAF has purchased 37 Indian Mobile radars, 21 odd Indian LLWR, more than that number of Israeli gapfillers, 18 LLTR from Thales, 18 MPR from Elta (while an Indian one is in advanced trials, with 8 on order), and an Indian LLR is in trials with 18 on indent. A RFI is out for 4 more aerostats, 12 more HPR, some 6 AEW&C aircraft are on order, it has also inducted its first proper ESM system (DivyaDrishti) and more capabilities are on the anvil.

There have been significant improvements in UAVs - Searcher 2 and Herons have been acquired.

The Prithvi 3 SSM has been retired for the Brahmos LACM of which deliveries have started.

Su-30 serviceability has increased to 65%, Astra has cleared a lot of trials, and many local PGM/EW programs are maturing. IAF firepower is actually increasing, despite the aircraft drawdown.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 10:22

Co the air defences again.There is a piece by a former Lt.Gen.head of the same ,giving a v.good history of the evolution of the same and increased points to be defended today making point defence prohibitively costly.Guns can't deal with stand-off PGMs as effectively as they did earlier with aircraft.We have a large no. of AA guns but require a multi- layered SAM system .Will try and fish out more details.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 10:51

Cosmo_R wrote:Rakesh. What I am attacking is the short term thinking: its always 'gap fillers'. We have never met a used ac that we didn't like. Used MiGs (during the early 200s it was MiG21s refurbished by Israel), now Malaysian MiG 29s, Jags from France, the evergreen M2K-5s from Qatar.

1) Are you aware of the Boneyard? Officially known as the 309th Aerospace Maintenance and Regeneration Group in Arizona?

In 2015, a 53+ year old B-52, sitting out in the Arizona desert for 7+ years, gets resurrected and flies again with the USAF. Think about that. The most mightest air force on planet earth, uses "gap fillers" instead of acquiring brand new bombers. The Boneyard is one of the largest repositories of used aircraft. See below.

'Ghost Rider' B-52 rises from Boneyard
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/21/us/arizon ... index.html

Every air force does this, whenever possible. Shrinking budgets make used but refurbishable airframes a choice too good to pass over.

2) You mentioned the MiG-21. However it was the Mongol variant that the IAF acquired primarily from East European air forces. I believe Romania was one of the countries. Questionable MiG-21 spares were also acquired from East European air forces when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. The IAF could not phase out nearly 50% of her fleet in the early 1990s, just because the Soviet Union no longer existed. The IAF had to fly them and for that the IAF needed spares. BTW, the Mongol variant is the twin seater, trainer version. We needed those urgently as MiG-21s are great aircraft, but very unforgiving to a novice pilot. You better know what you are doing, when flying a MiG-21. See below.

MiG-21
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... vikram.htm

In an article in Indian Aviation magazine, IAF Wing Commander K.S. Suresh says in air combat manoeuvres, inexperienced pilots flying the MiG-21 have got into trouble without realising it. When the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, it cannot be arrested with the power available. Worse, “there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking, etc prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognise the danger in time to take recovery action or eject". Essentially, young pilots were pitchforked into an aerial meat grinder, resulting in a high loss rate from peacetime accidents.

3) You mentioned the Jaguars. Those Jaguars are meant to be used as Christmas trees (i.e. spares), but you are bringing that up to justify your argument which has no merit. Even the French who are "donating" those Jaguars to the IAF have clearly said, that they are NOT airworthy. The six Jaguar squadrons need parts to continue flying till early 2030, when they are planned to be retired. We are the only air force remaining still flying Jaguars. The French, the British, the Omanis, the Nigerians and the Ecuadorians have all retired their Jaguars.

4) You mentioned the Malaysian MiG-29s. However even in that instance, the contract is one of an exchange. Get parts for Malaysian Su-30MKM from HAL in exchange for MiG-29 airframes. They can bring those aircraft up to the MiG-29UPG standard in India, as is being done with the IAF MiG-29s. Ask Philip :) Any day better than the MiG-21M/MF/Bis variants that still fly with the IAF. Even if the airframes are not airworthy, they can be used as Christmas trees just like the non-airworthy Jaguar airframes from France.

5) Last but not least, you mentioned the Qatari Mirage 2000s. No 9 Squadron is a not full strength squadron. So airframes hours - which can be spread evenly over a squadron of 18 aircraft - has to make do with 10+ aircraft. Not an ideal situation at all. It is for that reason that Kartik mentioned acquring the Qatari M2Ks. Also, we have lost at least two (if not more) Mirage 2000 trainers in accidents. Those 12 Qatari M2Ks include three two seat trainers as well. A huge bonus for new pilots who join Nos 1, 7 and 9 Squadrons and need to transition to the Mirage 2000. Less stress on the remaining two seat M2K trainers that are with the squadrons right now. Those Qatari M2Ks will also come with spares, weaponry and all other goodies that Qatar has to keep those M2Ks operational. To deride this and use terms like "short term thinking" illustrates a lack of depth.

The issue is one of how to quickly address the shortfall NOW, while at the same time maintain or improve the IAF's firepower capability. The SEF is not coming any time in the near future (best estimates being at minimum five years). If the IAF can improve the serviceability of current aircraft and replace some of the MiG-21M/MF/Bis and MiG-27M squadrons right NOW, it is an option definately worth considering. Air Marshal Anil Chopra (Retd) - a former Mirage 2000 pilot in the IAF - has clearly said that improving serviceability of current aircraft will easily add 4 - 5 squadrons to the IAF. In that regard, I am very happy to read in Karan's post above (THANK YOU Karan Saar!) that Rambha serviceability has improved to 65%. Out of a planned fleet of 314 birds, 65% translates to 204 aircraft. I personally would love to see that number between 70 - 75%. But 65% is amazing, considering under AK Antony it was lumbering at around 50%. Unlike the SEF, there is no long learning curve involved for the IAF as an organization with additional M2Ks and MiG-29s. The Qatari M2Ks and Malaysian MiG-29s can easily slot into the current IAF force structure without any major operational hiccups. There is also no ToT nonsense to deal with and no inspections from America to deal with either.

Cosmo_R wrote:On the last, do you realize that whole reason we've had this fiasco with the MMRCA and Rafales SE etc has been because MoD (two babus) decided that the M2Ks were a different ac and therefore not eligible for 'follow on' orders? Is it ironic that we are now advocating buying the same (but used) stuff that we could not buy new?

What do you want to buy that is new? Please do advise. You want SEF? Please advise how is the IAF expected to soldier on for the next five years - at minimum - with MiG-21M/MF/Bis and MiG-27Ms till SEF arrives? If you can retire 2 - 3 of those squadrons right NOW, you would not do it?

Cosmo_R wrote:As for topping off the Wolfpacks and other short term thinking, buy more Rafales and convert them. Do you really think that buying used M2K-5s and then doing the usual IAF 'MKIzing' is going to be cheap? That's the funny part. All the good stuff that will come with the Rafale like the Meteor will be prohibitively expensive on the M2K-5.

Buy more Rafales? Dude, are you even serious? Have you been following anything on the recent Rafale events in India? Winter session is about to start in Parliament. RaGa has just been appointed Congress President and he has an itch to prove himself...far greater than before. He is playing gilli-danda with the Rafale deal, without realizing the ramifications of what he is doing. And if he continues to shoot his mouth off, he will kill the Rafale deal for good. This is the result of Bofors, which made Govts in India impotent and petrified when it comes to defence deals.

Secondly, and I am willing to be corrected on this issue, but even with the M2K upgrade....I do not believe the Mirage 2000I/TI can fire the Meteor. Micas, yes. But not the Meteor. If I am wrong, I would be very happy to know that the Mirage 2000I/TI can fire the Meteor. That missile is an awesome capability. And heck, more birds in the IAF that can fire that missile...I am all for it. Thirdly, upgrading 12 Mirage 2000s to achieve commonality with the IAF Mirage 2000s will be ridicously cheaper than acquiring brand new Rafales. At $43 million upgrade cost per Mirage 2000, it works out to $516 million. Do you have any idea how much 12 brand new Rafales will cost? I am all for inducting new Rafales - personally, my wish is another 36 - 44 birds - to bring it up to four squadrons. Even the IAF states that both Ambala and Hasimara can station two Rafale squadrons each. But additional Rafales is a moot point now, all thanks to Congress' new Shehzada.

Cosmo_R wrote:Not just the tech stuff but the renegotiation of critical understandings.

What has this got to do with acquiring additional Mirage 2000s?

Cosmo_R wrote:So all in all, the ironic part is that we want to buy used stuff that will kick the can down the road for another few years while robbing the capex for stuff now that will last much longer and will be more capable. The funny part is that is that people think this is going to be cheaper.

No the irony is that you think soldiering on with aircraft, well past their prime (and putting those pilots lives at risk) is just fine. Lets wait for SEF onlee. It is the miracle that will solve all ills in India - unemployment, poverty, hunger, etc.

Cosmo_R wrote:Keynes once observed that in the 'long run we are all dead' but as I have observed 'it's the short run that kills you'. That is my central concern.

Keynes obviously never practised on kettle bells. Runs are never good for you - both the "exercise" variety and the "diarrhea" variety.

Cosmo_R wrote:We have to get over the used Amby/Padmini mentality and equip our forces with an 'unfair advantage'. One Bennedose is tweeting to NS regarding upgraded basic equipment for Jawans. I feel we should the same WRT the IAF. Give them the best and don't rob them of the latest and best by being penny-wise and pound foolish.

I have read that tweet by Bennedose, which is actually a cut-and-paste from Akshay Kapoor on Page 3 of the Tactics & military craft thread. As you yourself said, basic equipment. But it is not the best. It is the bare minimum needed for India's soldiers. In the same vein, the IAF needs to replace combat aircraft - well past their prime - NOW (not in five years) with the "basic" premise that they are a match for anything that the PAF or the Dragon can throw at it. Waiting for and inducting SEF is most definately penny-wise and pound foolish. Well Said :)

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby srai » 18 Dec 2017 11:13

Cosmo_R,

When do you think this new SEF/TEF will join the IAF by? Have you followed the whole MMRCA saga? How long did that take? Now that 36 Rafales are going to trickle in starting 2019/20, when do you think they will achieve FOC with the IAF? Don't forget to add that to the SEF/TEF acquisition.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 18 Dec 2017 20:48

Agreement with France for supply of Rafale Fighter Jets
http://wap.business-standard.com/articl ... 900_1.html

18 December 2017

An Inter-Governmental Agreement was signed on 23rd September 2016 between the Government of India and French Republic for the procurement of 36 Rafale aircraft including weapons, long term maintenance support, simulators along with 10 years of annual maintenance and associated equipment.

The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) proposal was for procurement of 126 aircraft in which 18 aircraft were direct fly-away aircraft and 108 aircraft were to be License Manufactured in India. In the present procurement, 36 Rafale aircraft are being procured in direct fly-away condition under Inter-Governmental Agreement between the Government of India and French Republic. In the IGA, better terms have been achieved in terms of better pricing, better maintenance terms and better delivery schedule.

This information was given by Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman in a written reply to Shri Mohd. Ali Khan in Rajya Sabha today.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 18 Dec 2017 21:03

Ashish Sir: Please put the date of the article when posting, so folks are aware it is current.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 18 Dec 2017 21:21

^^ No Sir to me please.

Will keep your points in mind. Thank you.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby sudeepj » 18 Dec 2017 22:58

Qatar is in a standoff with UAE and Saudi Arabia. I dont think they will be in a hurry to get rid of their existing fighter inventory.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Cybaru » 19 Dec 2017 01:08

Plus when Qatar does sell its inventory, it won't do so with weapons. Majority of weapons will end up on Rafale.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2017 02:42

Meteor missile deal set to win back India's aerial supremacy against rivals
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/in ... emacy.html

The Meteor missile, which is coming along with the Rafale combat deal signed by the Narendra Modi government, will help reestablish the aerial supremacy of the Indian Air Force against their rivals in Pakistan and China. India has bought a package of the European Meteor missiles along with the Rafales and may prove to be game changers due to their beyond-visual-range striking capability of close to 150 km, security forces sources have told Mail Today. The sources said that until the Kargil war and a few years after that, the Indian Air Force had complete superiority over the Pakistan Air Force as it did not have any beyond-visual range missile fitted on their F-16s or the Chinese supplied planes.

The Meteor missile was not part of the Rafale deal that was being done by the UPA government but when Modi decided to go in for an emergency procurement of the Rafale planes from France, the Air Force desired to include the Meteors as part of the weapons package. During the Kargil war, the Indian side had two beyond-visual-range missiles which included the French S530D and the Russian RVV AE missile which deterred the Pakistanis from using its fighter plane fleet in the Kargil war with India, the sources said. 'The over-arching consideration was the BVR missile capability of IAF fighters which impinged unfavourably on the mission success probability,' former Pakistan Air Force officer Air Commodore Kaiser Taufel had written in his blog about the war.

However, the situation changed after the Pakistanis were supplied the AIM120-C5 beyond-visualrange missiles which had the capability of taking out enemy planes at 100 km and were fitted on their F-16s. This somewhat changed the balance in terms of aerial superiority over the skies of South Asia, but with the Meteor coming in now, India can again say that it would be able to completely dominate in terms of air-to-air battle with aerial adversaries, the sources said. The sources said even the Chinese don't have any proven air-to-air missiles that can be launched from any of their fighter planes. 'One good thing about the Meteor is that it has not yet been integrated with any American-origin aircraft and the Pakistani F- 16s or the Chinese-origin JF-17s can't get them in the times to come as well. The possibility of the Chinese integrating them is also ruled out,' a source said. India is currently going to get the missiles with the Rafales that it has procured but has plans of integrating these missiles on the Russian Su-30 combat planes, which are due for an upgrade in the near future.

India and Russia are discussing the possibility of carrying out an upgrade of the early batches of the Su- 30MKIs, which were inducted in the late 1990s and early 2000s and may cost India over Rs 25,000 crore. The Meteors have been getting tested in the French Air Force Rafales since 2015 and the campaign was completed last year. The Indian Air Force has contracted for 36 Rafale planes under the 2016 government to government deal with France and they may arrive in the country by early 2019. The Air Force has plans of deploying one squadron each of Rafale on the China and Pakistan front in Hashmira and Ambala respectively.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Karan M » 22 Dec 2017 06:22

Rakesh - see this. The Israelis and how they value each and every item.
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17 ... d-treasure
Israel Is Treating America's Throwaway F-15D Eagles As New Found Treasure

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2017 11:22

Aiyoo! Saar, do not post such logical articles. We are all narrow minded to think of such solutions. Only F-Solah Block 70/72 is the solution.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Dec 2017 11:32

Did AIM come to pakistan under ombaba or bush-mush

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 22 Dec 2017 11:34

AIM-120C5? Under Bush. Does not matter, the Obama administration would have done the same.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Aditya_V » 22 Dec 2017 12:20

Rakesh wrote:AIM-120C5? Under Bush. Does not matter, the Obama administration would have done the same.


Contract was proposed and Signed under Bush in 2005 and delivered in 2008-10 under Ombaba. But funnily, the Indian Government was so compliant it didnt think of protesting or atleast make the Pakis to pay fully like in 2016 which would have killed the Deal. Such was the Indian Government behaviour in those years.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Philip » 25 Dec 2017 16:26

Yes, I probably have a drop or two of Jewish blood via my Armenian great-grandmother! I too believe that every aircraft is an asset.Ru Bears are being used for sub commn. and other EW, etc. purposes apart from their main role strat. bombers. We've just pensioned off the IN's 8. A few could've been retained for spl. uses given their huge bomb bay which can carry 14 of the new K-50 missile. Look what we did with the first batch of SU-30s.In storage in Belarus slowly being picked up by nations- even Sri Lanka wants 6 ,cheaper than JF-17s, while we scrounge in the dustbin for Malaysian MIG-29s, French Jags,Canadian Sea Kings and old MI-35 gunships for the Afghans! We have a few hundred MIG-21s, 27s, apart from the SU-30s.Surely a few of these could be used for EW , etc.? The SU-30s certainly great bomb trucks for the new PGMs of the day.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 26 Dec 2017 02:39

Karan M wrote:The only so called disadvantage of a Mirage 2000 (so called) is its 60 km ranged Mica BVR missile. We can always integrate the Astra instead.


I think there is a plan for that. read a report that even the UAE is interested in having the Astra integrated on its Mirages. By the way, even Taiwan is now exploring the possibility of upgrading its Mirage-2000-5s. Qatar's Mirages, being amongst the newest built, have plenty of life in them, which means no structural upgrades required, and they've not seen very heavy utilization either. We had offered $350 million for these and their MICA stocks the first time, which was considered too low by the Qataris. Now, they may well be amenable to selling the fleet for that price.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Kartik » 26 Dec 2017 02:42

sudeepj wrote:Qatar is in a standoff with UAE and Saudi Arabia. I dont think they will be in a hurry to get rid of their existing fighter inventory.


They are already transitioning Mirage pilots onto the Rafale and are now planning to send pilots to a Typhoon squadron in the UK, to convert to that type. With such few pilots and so many new jets coming into their orbat, they just cannot retain those Mirages realistically. Makes a lot more sense to divest those, and use the money for other productive purposes. They won't sell them immediately, not till they've received all their Rafales maybe, but hey our own procurement process is not going to be fast anyway.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Dec 2017 05:55

I hope it is true. But are these mirages on offer? Or we are begani shaadi me Abdullah diwana

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 26 Dec 2017 21:14

fanne saar, you bring back so many memories with that song.

These Mirages are NOT on offer. Just a wish by jingos. As Kartik said, if this ever comes to fruition....at the glacial pace our MoD moves at....these birds will be sitting in front of some derelict hangar, rusted and falling off. But at the end of year, MoD will put it in their glossy brochure....12 *BRAND NEW* Qatari M2Ks bought at low price to the exchequer.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby fanne » 26 Dec 2017 21:27

Naah my point is even more subtle, I don't think it's Mod slow decision making (which is definitely a factor), Qataris are not selling it, period. Whether we decide fast or slow, doesn't matter. Having said that, if they ever do, we should jump on that double fast.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2017 03:55

Not necessarily fanne. The Babus at the MoD lowballed Qatar back in the 2000s. They may be used, but you got to be serious with your offer. For example, you would not offer ₹ 1 lakh for an apartment that is worth ₹ 1 crore. The seller won't even entertain you after that. The MoD did more or less the same thing. The babus view national security as any other ministry they work in - it is only a job. So who cares? You are guarenteed your pension. Delay and push file from one office to the next. Somebody needs to delay their pension and then see how quickly they move.

Qatar offers India 12 Mirage fighters
http://aviationweek.com/awin/qatar-offe ... e-fighters

Qatari Mirage deal India's answer to F-16s
http://icast.org.in/news/2005/mar05/mar31n2.html

2nd hand Mirages for Indian Air Force
http://sajeevpearlj.blogspot.ca/2015/08 ... force.html

India looks set to buy those Rafales. But we can meet IAF’s demand for French combat aircraft cheaply
https://defenceupdate.in/india-looks-se ... t-cheaply/

An easy way out for our Defence Minister to escape the tight corner he is in and junk the Rafale but also meet IAF’s craving for foreign combat aircraft, especially French, fighter planes, is to acquire from a financially beleagured Greece its nearly three squadrons of Mirage 2000 aircraft IAF so dearly loves. The Hellenic AF operates 45 Mirage 2000s — 20 EGM/BGM variant and 25 “5 Mk-II” version.The difference between the Greek EGM/BGM and the 5-Mk II Mirage 2000 is only an external IFR. Greece is unlikely to be disarmed — it also has some 150-odd F-16 C/Ds. So Athens would happily part with its Mirages. Further, Qatar is in the market to dispose of its 9 Mirage 2000s which too India can buy. Together that’s 45 Mirage 2000s from Greece and 9 of the same from Qatar for a complement of 54 planes, doubling IAF’s Mirage 2000 fleet. India, moreover, will not have to invest in the servicing infrastructure which already exists, nor will monies have to be splurged either on training pilots or servicing technicians. It only needs an imaginative gambit by the Modi govt to approach Athens with a deal it cannot refuse, say, $100 million per Mirage 2000 in the Hellenic AF with all the stores, spares, and weapons holdings for this aircraft.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2017 04:03

Classic example of penny wise, pound foolish

Qatar Emiri Air Force (QEAF) Fighters
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military ... ghters.htm

Qatar tried to sell its fleet of twelve MIRAGE 2000-5 fighters, which were withdrawn into storage after a very short service period (leaving the Air Force without first line combat planes) reportedly because it was felt to be inappropriate to have French technical assistance personnel and advisors on the same base that houses the CENTCOM forward HQs. A tentative deal with India collapsed in mid-2009 as the price offered by India ($375 million) proved to be less than half the Qatar’s request.

So for a $750 million sale, the Babus went in at 50%. The Babu(s) who came up with the magic number no longer works at the ministry either. Probably retired by now. They pride themselves on being cheap. It may work well in other ministries, but national security is not a game.


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