VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jun 2020 23:25

Like Kartik said, no news of any actual orders for the i-Derby ER.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Jun 2020 23:26

nachiket wrote:
ldev wrote: Hope this answers your question.
BVRAAM's are rarely fired at the edge of their engagement envelopes. The MICA especially which is the only BVRAAM that the M2k can use (unlike the Tejas which can use the Astra and i-Derby) has a range disadvantage against the AMRAAM. Having the Meteor available could have helped considering the Meteor has a much larger NEZ and would have a higher pk than the MICA at the same range allowing it to be fired earlier in actual combat even if it is not at its own max range.

In my conversation with a French poster on another forum almost a year ago, someone who had connects with guys at Dassault, he said that Dassault and MBDA were both of the opinion that the MICA-NG was the better option for the Mirage-2000.

Multiple reasons for that-

1) the MICA-NG is also a dual pulse BVRAAM. But in the same form factor as the existing MICA with miniaturized electronics and smaller seeker helping to fit in the additional propellant. That is the same approach as the Derby to I-Derby ER.
2) Existing interfaces that are used for the MICA will continue to be used for the MICA-NG
3) No new carriage, separation trials and guided trials will be required. Or if so, far fewer than what would be required for a new missile like Meteor to be integrated with the Mirage-2000
4) Meteor integration with Mirage-2000 is only requested by India, so costs would have to be borne by India alone

Going forward, hopefully the Astra, Astra Mk2 and SFDR will also be integrated. Hopefully there won't be issues seen on that front.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Jun 2020 23:33

Kartik, yes I was only considering the current MICA, not the NG. News of the NG came only in 2018 and I don't know the status of its development. I agree with the reasons you have stated above for why that would be a better fit if/when available.

As for Astra, IIRC from what Indranil posted a while back from his sources, Astra integration was currently envisaged only on the MKI, Tejas and possibly Mig-29, not for the M2k. Reasons unknown.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 24 Jun 2020 23:37

MICA-NG deliveries to the French Air force are expected to begin around 2026.

Astra is just getting started. I don't know what its peak planned production rate is going to be but given the volumes required to support the aircraft currently planned for integration, I'm sure they can have a look at additional platforms for integration once those units start meeting their threshold requirements for inventory.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jun 2020 23:40

fanne wrote:Guys enough of this juvenile tutu mai mai
There is war going on, can we focus on that. Every time I come to see if any bird has landed and I see 7th grade fight, my daddy is bigger than yours. Please there is option of private messaging, take it out there and spare the rest.

This is the result of losing some fighter contest like 10 years ago. Still cannot get over that fact and is just bitter over it. This talk of "Unhappy-because-IAF-does-not-have-the best-value-for-money" is all fake. That bitterness clouds their judgement and the result is for all to see. Basic concepts of tendering are to be ignored for Western technology

It was a fighter plane contest. That all what it is was. It did not change the Indo-US relationship in any negative manner. On the contrary, the relationship between both countries has only deepened since the technical down select.

The IAF knows what it needs to do and will do so accordingly. It does not need advice from armchair radar consultants on BRF

Thank goodness these guys do not work in the US State Department, handling South Asian affairs. DT would be a lamb compared to these guys.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jun 2020 20:53

Qouted the most relevant parts, but read the entire article. Gwalior is looking to be a third airbase that can offer training for the Mirage 2000 to operate alongside the Rafale. Logical, since Gwalior has been operating the Mirage 2000 there since 1985.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/127 ... 73600?s=20 ---> At least SIX Indian Air Force Rafales arrive in India on July 27, ‘gamechanger’ weaponry to arrive ahead. Details in our report:

IAF Rafales Land July 27, ‘Gamechanger’ Weaponry To Arrive Ahead
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... ahead.html
29 June 2020

While the initial plan was to deliver four Rafales, Livefist can confirm that the IAF and Dassault Aviation are working to ensure at least six airframes arrive in one go, with the possibility of that number increasing by a couple of airframes.

By August, the Indian Rafales will be operationally ready. Apart from the inauguration of the Golden Arrows squadron in August-September, the Rafales will likely make their first public appearance at the October 8 Air Force Day flypast over Delhi.

Weaponry arriving ahead of new jets is routine. Weapons storage facilities at Ambala have been ready since late last year, with safety certification complete. The IAF Rafale’s weapons will be combat deployable soon after the jets arrive. Training in France, both with the jets and on simulators, has included combat simulations with both weapon types. That training will continue in Ambala.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 29 Jun 2020 23:22

Rafale to land in India on 27 July, will be combat-ready early as France diverts missiles

New Delhi: Amid India’s ongoing border standoff with China, at least four Rafale fighter jets are now scheduled to land in Ambala on 27 July, and will be ready for combat earlier than expected as the French have diverted an initial lot of cutting edge missiles meant for its own air force to India, ThePrint has learnt.

According to sources, the jets can be deployed for combat quicker than anticipated as France has diverted some of the game-changing missiles — Meteor and SCALP — meant for its own air force to the Rafale jets for India. Originally, this was supposed to happen months after the delivery of the fighter jets.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 30 Jun 2020 07:08

I am not sure about them being combat ready, according to the following video they have to go through FOC

The commentator has very interesting points about Indias preparedness and panic buying of defense equipment.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 30 Jun 2020 11:21

I’m sure 6 Rafaels are all we need to scare Chins. Good going!

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Jun 2020 11:31

To maximize goodnesss of “savior” from distant shores, let them be attached two per MKI squadron. Don’t go to a fight without one of them chaperoning with their extra long stick

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 30 Jun 2020 11:38

Why bother even flying the French beauties? Just print their life size posters and put them all across the LAC. Chins will give away Tibet and immediately call Delhi for panchsheel based peace agreement.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Jun 2020 11:45

This is shameful. Six Rafales are equivalent to at least a full squadron of 20+ LCA Tejas Mk1A, RM running to Russia to beg them for timely delivery of the S-400 vaporware and more Mig-29s and Su-30s to crash, procuring lots of Excalibur shells from the US, and David's Sling from Israel. The reality is that India has done this to itself by successive governments ignoring the national security threat by deliberately slowing development of indigenous weapon systems and their production. More so on production as that takes a big investment, but is much cheaper than running helter skelter for weapon systems in a time of crisis.

mahadevbhu · Post by **mahadevbhu** » 30 Jun 2020 12:16

Also, this govt has been around for a full 6 years. LCA deal has not been signed till yet. People hold out for graft - elections are not won on love and fresh air - and the nation pays the price at the border.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jun 2020 18:20

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/127 ... 64672?s=20 ---> It’s final. Five Rafale fighters head to India on July 27. The IAF & Dassault had been trying for 6-7.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 30 Jun 2020 18:23

Hopefully, GoI has agreed to buy more instead of paying premium for emergency speed up.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Jun 2020 19:11

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/127 ... 64672?s=20 ---> It’s final. Five Rafale fighters head to India on July 27. The IAF & Dassault had been trying for 6-7.

Going on past history, the PLA attacks between Sep-Nov. Right now they build up on the Tibetan plateau. Perhaps if the GoI did a quick G-G deal for 44 more Rafales, then the Dassault could send 2-3 more by end of July. Seems like this is the best time to do this.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jun 2020 22:30

Mort Walker wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/127 ... 64672?s=20 ---> It’s final. Five Rafale fighters head to India on July 27. The IAF & Dassault had been trying for 6-7.
Going on past history, the PLA attacks between Sep-Nov. Right now they build up on the Tibetan plateau. Perhaps if the GoI did a quick G-G deal for 44 more Rafales, then the Dassault could send 2-3 more by end of July. Seems like this is the best time to do this.

Mort Saar, sending 2 - 3 more is going to make little to no difference if the balloon goes up sometime in the next six months.

Rafale will be combat ready, as they will have trained pilots and weaponry available to them. The squadron has already been raised and as per the IAF, No 17 Squadron will be operationally ready by August 2020.

However, it will be a while before they are fully integrated into the Indian Air Force. I am sure you have seen the Times Now documentary on the Su-30MKI. The first squadron will form the nucleus from where operational doctrines are formed, training syllabus are created and from where the skilled manpower will be taken to form the second squadron. There will be a learning curve for the IAF crew and that will not be lightning quick. It is only natural and all air forces around the world go through this when they induct a brand new platform.

Same would be true for any of the other contestants in the MMRCA contest. There is no short cut to absorbing this level of tech that a fourth plus generation or a fifth generation fighter brings to the table. As you already are aware, as capability increases so does the learning curve. The same is true for the PLAAF who operate the J-20 and the FC-31. And neither of them are anything to really fawn over.

Surely you remember the Single Engine thread on BRF, where folks were claiming that LM could deliver F-16s at a rapid rate to the IAF. While possibly true, what use would they serve if there are no pilots trained to operate the platform? In the IAF - like in any other professional air force - pilots have to undergo a rigorous training syllabus before they are deemed qualified to fly the plane. That does not happen in one day. In the words of the crack Saab marketing team

, a combat plane is only effective when she is in the air. Otherwise, she is just one expensive paperweight.

The only thing for the IAF to do now is to increase the serviceability of the platforms currently in service and increase the stock of weaponry that these platforms use. The Russians have already done a number of IL-76 flights to Ambala AFS for that very purpose. Everything else that is coming in the pipeline now - Rafale, S-400, MH-60R, etc - will serve little utility if & when the balloon goes up.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 30 Jun 2020 22:46

I have seen pictures of 13 IAF Rafales (i.e. at least that many have been produced). How long on average do they stay in France before being flown to India? From the news that only five are getting delivered, this seems in the 6 month or more range.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jun 2020 22:58

abhik wrote:I have seen pictures of 13 IAF Rafales (i.e. at least that many have been produced). How long on average do they stay in France before being flown to India? From the news that only five are getting delivered, this seems in the 6 month or more range.

The production is going as per schedule (stipulated in the contract) and was halted I believe due to COVID. The factory at Merignac has commenced production again. The time taken is because of the training that the IAF crew (both ground and air) are undergoing. The training is intensive and is thus taking time.

The specifics of that training are obviously classified and when Air Vice Marshal PK Srivastava (retd) casually brought it up on the Security Scan TV segment, he was immediately told to not discuss it by Air Marshal Vinod Patney (retd) who was also on the interviewee panel.

The Rafale will not be serving on the ORP and neither will she be used for air defence. That is not her role in the IAF.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 30 Jun 2020 23:19

Rakesh wrote: The Rafale will not be serving on the ORP and neither will she be used for air defence. That is not her role in the IAF.

Which is why some of the statements made after Feb 27 last year by ex-IAF officers about "If we had the Rafale etc. etc." rankled me. Nothing would have changed if we had a couple of squadrons of Rafales. WingCo Abhinandan would still have been flying a Mig-21. And the aircraft flying CAP would have most likely been M2k's and MKI's as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Jun 2020 23:29

Exactly. Well said Nachiket.

It is not like No 51 Sword Arms Sqn would be moved out of the Srinagar Valley and No 17 Golden Arrows Sqn would have taken her place.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Jul 2020 00:32

Rakesh wrote: It is not like No 51 Sword Arms Sqn would be moved out of the Srinagar Valley and No 17 Golden Arrows Sqn would have taken her place.

Hopefully No. 18 Flying Bullets will take its place in Srinagar in the near future.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Jul 2020 02:04

Rakesh wrote:....sending 2 - 3 more is going to make little to no difference if the balloon goes up sometime in the next six months.

The only thing for the IAF to do now is to increase the serviceability of the platforms currently in service and increase the stock of weaponry that these platforms use. The Russians have already done a number of IL-76 flights to Ambala AFS for that very purpose. Everything else that is coming in the pipeline now - Rafale, S-400, MH-60R, etc - will serve little utility if & when the balloon goes up.

If that is indeed the case, then why the urgent attempt to get those 6 in the first place? Pure posturing and for public consumption wonlee?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Jul 2020 02:21

The IAF is not in the business of fake posturing. They are looking forward to the aircraft arriving. All I am saying is that full integration into the IAF will take time. That is all.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Jul 2020 02:30

nachiket wrote:Hopefully No. 18 Flying Bullets will take its place in Srinagar in the near future.

Eagerly waiting for that day

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 01 Jul 2020 02:37

nachiket wrote:Hopefully No. 18 Flying Bullets will take its place in Srinagar in the near future.

What aircraft does No. 18 have?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Jul 2020 02:42

Roop wrote:
nachiket wrote:Hopefully No. 18 Flying Bullets will take its place in Srinagar in the near future.
What aircraft does No. 18 have?

It's the second Tejas squadron, recently re-raised. It is also the squadron of Fg.Offr Nirmaljit Singh Sekhon, the IAF's only PVC recipient who immortalized himself during his solo defence of Srinagar against six Sabres in 1971.

Seeing it based in Srinagar again equipped with the Tejas would be a "jingo khush hua" moment for a lot of people here I'm sure, including myself.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 01 Jul 2020 06:36

nachiket wrote:It's the second Tejas squadron...

Thanks.

Seeing it based in Srinagar again equipped with the Tejas would be a "jingo khush hua" moment for a lot of people here I'm sure, including myself.

Yes, a matter of tremendous pride and joy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Jul 2020 09:39

Mort Saar, one more for you....

Rafale Set to Arrive in Ambala – Induction and Operationalisation – Plan to Compress Schedules
https://airpowerasia.com/2020/07/01/raf ... schedules/
By Air Marshal Anil Chopra (retd)

It shall be the endeavour of the IAF to quickly make the fleet fully operational. They will start, flying operational missions along with the radar controllers. They will quickly hone their weapon delivery skills. They will begin evolving dissimilar air combat tactics (DACT) with other fleets. Rafale will fly mixed formation missions in realistic war-like scenarios. They will fly network-centric missions in different roles, including air strikes, air-defence and electronic support roles. They will also take part in inter-service joint exercises. They would also fly coordinated missions with strategic assets like air-refuelers and AWACS. In view of the stand-off with China, the normal time frame for fleet operationalisation of 4-6 months would now be compressed to maybe 1-2 months.

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Jul 2020 10:32

^^^
Mastery will take more time yet, especially for regular line pilots. Initial operationalization would be by very experienced pilots with qualifications such as Fighter Combat Leader, Fighter Strike Leader, Qualified Flying Instructor, etc

TushS · Post by **TushS** » 01 Jul 2020 12:10

Then it would be good, if we stop considering Rafale to participate in current conflicts with China. And focus mainly on availabilty of current fleet in air. Emergency purchase of more Su-30 MKI and Mig-29s are part of this, because IAF knows all the doctrines about these aircrafts. It has pilots trained extensively in these two aircrafts. No other aircraft can help us more at this moment than these two.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 02:47

nachiket wrote:Seeing it based in Srinagar again equipped with the Tejas would be a "jingo khush hua" moment for a lot of people here I'm sure, including myself.

Your wish may just come true Nachiket Saar! Instead of Srinagar, she may operate out of Leh

https://twitter.com/chandra41497376/sta ... 26848?s=20 ---> Sir please let us know whether Tejas-LCA can be used in case war erupts against China.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12783 ... 72576?s=20 ---> Yes, it will be used.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 03:10

Why IAF is counting on 1 missile on the Rafale fighter to counter China
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2020/ ... china.html
30 June 2020

The Meteor missile's USP is not its range, but its unique propulsion system. The Phoenix, R-33 and AMRAAM all have rocket engines. In such air-to-air missiles, the rocket engine delivers a uniform amount of thrust over certain duration of flight after which the motor burns out. The missile then 'coasts', or glides at high speed, to its target, which it tracks through radar. US defence website The Drive explains the longer the distance a rocket-powered missile has to travel to its target, "the less energy the missile will have for its critical terminal phase of flight, and that is not a good thing". As an air-to-air missile approaches, a target aircraft will engage in steep manoeuvring and deploy countermeasures to confuse the incoming missile.

Interestingly, Su-30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force were able to dodge the AMRAAM missiles fired by Pakistan’s F-16s last February. The Meteor missile has a miniature supersonic jet engine, called a ramjet. Explaining the aerodynamic advantage of the Meteor, The Drive notes, "Instead of burning off all its fuel right after launch, it [Meteor] can throttle its engine back during cruise, thus saving fuel. As it approaches its target it can throttle up, eventually making its terminal attack while at its highest possible energy state, around mach 4.5, even when fired over long ranges." This helps the Meteor missile engage rapidly manoeuvring targets like China's Su-30 and J-11 jets.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jul 2020 03:15

IAF to get Rafales by July-end
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2020-06-30
30 June 2020

The 10-ton Rafale can carry also a 14-ton payload of fuel and weapons—more than the weight of two MiG-21 fighter jets. “The Rafale numbers might seem small for now, but their presence is itself a deterrent,” says Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, former Deputy Chief of Air Staff. “These are special mission aircraft—they are not the type that will be used for close air support or point defence.”

Sources say that increasing the number of jets being delivered next month to six would impact the training of IAF pilots back in Bordeaux. Ten pilots have been trained to fly the jets, with 12 more yet to be trained. The pilots are part of a team of over 100 IAF personnel based in France since March 2019 for training on various aspects of the jet, including flying and ground handling.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jul 2020 04:45

^^^

...says Air Marshal Nirdosh Tyagi, former Deputy Chief of Air Staff. “These are special mission aircraft—they are not the type that will be used for close air support or point defence.”...

Sounds like there is a need for a lot more LCA Mk1/A to fill in the CAS and point defence roles!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 02 Jul 2020 05:55

Rakesh wrote:The IAF is not in the business of fake posturing. They are looking forward to the aircraft arriving. All I am saying is that full integration into the IAF will take time. That is all.

In a pinch you use whatever you have and disregard everything that comes in the way. But in every other situation, there is a lot more to introducing an aircraft into a potential combat environment than just completing training on it. It takes some time to cycle in that competence even from a employment-units perspective leave aside the broader enterprise that spools up to create advance organic capability and tactic development and integration perspective (aircraft need to integrate with others and this required integration exercises to practice these things).

Here's an example of a new type, with a new unit being introduced to a potential combat situation once they've acquired a level of competence at employing their system and have demonstrated in a challenging large-force exercise environment -

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&start=1680#p2435806

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jul 2020 06:03

IAF Rafale EH BS001 and BS003

Image credit: Swiderek Maciejka

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Jul 2020 06:04

IAF Rafale DH RB004

Image credit: Didier Durieux

naird · Post by **naird** » 08 Jul 2020 18:34

Curious - does anyone know if India specific enhancements include 'ODL' ?

I am very much perplexed as to how IAF is planning to make Russian and Western platforms talk to each other via ODL ; Perhaps some member can shed some light. And if they dont really talk with each other - then in todays era managing the battle space will be a big challenge !

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Jul 2020 19:54

srai wrote:^^^
Mastery will take more time yet, especially for regular line pilots. Initial operationalization would be by very experienced pilots with qualifications such as Fighter Combat Leader, Fighter Strike Leader, Qualified Flying Instructor, etc

Yes - and mastery apart, at least they would very quickly operationalize the SCALP and Meteor, both of which are essential.