VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Nov 2018 20:52

Rafale deal: ‘We are not in the off-set business’, says HAL chairman urging politicians to ‘not bring HAL into this’

Rafale deal: ‘We are not in the off-set business’, says HAL chairman urging politicians to ‘not bring HAL into this’

Madhavan also informed that in the upcoming purchase of 110 fighter jets by India, HAL will have to be selected as a partner by any company that wins the deal.

At a time when Congress president Rahul Gandhi can’t stop accusing that Narendra Modi government has ‘snatched’ a ₹ 30,000 crore offset business in the Rafale deal from HAL and given it to Anil Ambani’s Reliance, HAL chairman has told that the company is not after such offset deals. In an exclusive interview with journalist Manu Pubby and published on the Economic Times, HAL chairman R Madhavan said that the public sector company was not a contender for offset business in the deal to buy 36 Rafale jets.

R Madhavan had taken over as Chairman and Managing Director (CMD) of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited on September 1, after the term of previous CMD T Suvarna Raju was over.

Madhavan also said that the company has asked its employees to not get involved with any political party on the issue. On the Rafale deal, he said, “our message is clear — please do not bring HAL into it”. He said that the company does not want to get involved in the issue because it has a negative impact on HAL.

He reminded that even the worker unions of the company have issued statements that they don’t want to be part of any controversy on the issue. On October 13, Rahul Gandhi wanted to address HAL employees in the company premises, but both HAL authorities and employee unions refused this meet. Later, Rahul Gandhi had addressed some current and former employees outside the company premises.

The HAL CMD said that the company is not in the offset business. He said the company is into manufacturing of aircraft, and transfer of technology and production are not the same as offsets. While some offset business may come to HAL, that is not a priority for the company.

“In fact, we are not even contending for the offsets. We do not plan, for example, to have a line to make a foreign civilian jet. Our prime business is manufacturing, not offsets”, he added. It can be noted that the Dassault Reliance joint venture, which is the prime target of Rahul Gandhi, is currently making parts for the Falcon business jet, which is a civilian plane made by Dassault.

Commenting on HAL’s own capability of making fighter planes, Madhavan said that although the company may lack the capacity to make enough planes on time, their capability and technical expertise can’t be questioned. He said that HAL has partnered with four private sector companies for the manufacture of the LCA Tejas, these private companies will be making almost the entire structure of the plane, while HAL will only do the final integration. The HAL chief said that the company would like to focus on design, integration, flight testing and support.

Madhavan also informed that in the upcoming purchase of 110 fighter jets by India, HAL will have to be selected as a partner by any company that wins the deal. There is a requirement of 40% indigenisation in that order, and only HAL has the capability for that.

On November 2, Madhavan had said that HAL has started a major expansion of its manufacturing facilities and controversies around that Rafale deal has not affected the morale of its employees. He had informed media that the company has an order book of ₹64,000 crore which will be executed in four years. To achieve this, the company will be investing ₹1,400 crore during the financial year 2018-19 to scale up its facilities.

It will be interesting to see if Rahul Gandhi will now stop bringing up HAL in his attack on the government on the Rafale deal.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Nov 2018 23:26

As indicated in the comment below, that is just a *File Photo* of a Rafale and not an Indian Rafale.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1060029469098946563 ----> BREAKING: First Rafale built for India makes debut flight — flew on October 30. First to be built, RB008 will be the last (36th) Rafale delivered, as it’s the tech proof platform. Deliveries begin Sept 2019, this Rafale rounds it up in 2022. (File Photo).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Nov 2018 23:27

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1059659756967813120 ---> Where Manu Pubby scoops the first interview with HAL’s new chief, who also has some strong things to say about the company being dragged into Rahul Gandhi's Rafale politics.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Nov 2018 23:41

A must read article for *Everyone* on BRF. This is how mis-information spreads....

Is Indian Air Force Naming Rafale After a Serving Air Marshal?
https://newscentral24x7.com/indian-air- ... -dassault/

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Nov 2018 10:55

Rakesh wrote:A must read article for *Everyone* on BRF. This is how mis-information spreads....

Is Indian Air Force Naming Rafale After a Serving Air Marshal?
https://newscentral24x7.com/indian-air- ... -dassault/

Rakesh, request you to post this in a central location so that DDM perfidy is exposed.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2018 10:48

IAF’s 36 Rafales cost 40 per cent more than Dassault’s earlier offer

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/11 ... -more.html

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 09 Nov 2018 11:13

Austin wrote:IAF’s 36 Rafales cost 40 per cent more than Dassault’s earlier offer

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/11 ... -more.html

So why didn't the UPA buy them?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Nov 2018 11:17

Chinmay wrote:
Austin wrote:IAF’s 36 Rafales cost 40 per cent more than Dassault’s earlier offer

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/11 ... -more.html
So why didn't the UPA buy them?

Like most UPA time delays , Indecision

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 09 Nov 2018 11:20

Basically keep Indian Armed forces just adequately equipped for desperate defensive battle, no Armed forces leader should have the itch to escalate to TSP terror attacks.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 09 Nov 2018 16:14

Austin wrote:IAF’s 36 Rafales cost 40 per cent more than Dassault’s earlier offer

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/11 ... -more.html

This Col Ajai Shukla contradicts his earlier 2017 blog on price analysis. This person appears to be a master in changing the narrative, possibly for his political bossess, to whose line he obviously is towing! Quite a pity - this veteran posing as a defence analyst, instead of what he is - a political "analyst" determined to twist facts....

Check out his earlier blog - in which he admits the reasonability of Rafale's pricing , except to quibble on inclusion of the element of NRC (Non Recurring Costs) - attributed to Design & Development of the aircraft, that is being amortised over all orders of all customers, not just on the French Air Force. Which in any case is the accepted industry norm.
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/search?q=rafale+costs

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2018 18:27

what an utterly bakwaas article! One can disembowel his entire piece in the first few lines of his article.

He claims to be apolitical, but his visceral hatred for the NDA Govt is clearly displayed in his tweets.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Nov 2018 00:17

All of it based on two unnamed serving sources who are claiming the cost of a deal that was never closed to be 40% cheaper.

Shukla’s been consumed by the dark side....

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 10 Nov 2018 03:24

Austin wrote:
Chinmay wrote:
So why didn't the UPA buy them?
Like most UPA time delays , Indecision

So that justifies 40% more? And anyone that questions that has moved on to the dark side? Should try to find the explanation, there might be some very legitimate ones rather than such silly accusations

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 10 Nov 2018 04:39

So that justifies 40% more? And anyone that questions that has moved on to the dark side? Should try to find the explanation, there might be some very legitimate ones rather than such silly accusations

If you are making the fantastic accusations, such as 40% more than a deal that never happened, you should be the one providing an legitimate explanation to support it. Otherwise, one can make any number of silly claims claiming inside sources even if they contradict fact based ones that Shukla himself proffered at one time. A typical straw man arguement.
And there are umpteen articles analyzing the numbers, including a couple by me. I don't believe we should repeatedly feed facts to people who are too lazy or unwilling to find them with a little bit of effort. Their lack of interest in facts reveals motives other than for truth.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Nov 2018 10:35

Shukla has released part two, which is even more tripe. Read for entertainment. The eagerness to cancel this deal benefits who?

Most “extras” in the 36-Rafale contract were also specified in the 126-Rafale tender
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/11/ ... -were.html

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 10 Nov 2018 10:56

Katare wrote:All of it based on two unnamed serving sources who are claiming the cost of a deal that was never closed to be 40% cheaper.

Shukla’s been consumed by the dark side....

shooklaw is the dark side, always was and always will be.

he was one of the UPA govt's cabinet ministers now divorced brother in law and is connected closely to the mafia via a house nigger flunkey serving the cosa nostra.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Nov 2018 00:54

Hari Nair wrote:This Col Ajai Shukla contradicts his earlier 2017 blog on price analysis. This person appears to be a master in changing the narrative, possibly for his political bossess, to whose line he obviously is towing! Quite a pity - this veteran posing as a defence analyst, instead of what he is - a political "analyst" determined to twist facts....

Check out his earlier blog - in which he admits the reasonability of Rafale's pricing , except to quibble on inclusion of the element of NRC (Non Recurring Costs) - attributed to Design & Development of the aircraft, that is being amortised over all orders of all customers, not just on the French Air Force. Which in any case is the accepted industry norm.
https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/search?q=rafale+costs

There's only one mention of the MMRCA's cost in the 2017 article -

Other than that, the only authoritative indicator of Rafale’s bid in the 126-fighter MMRCA contest has come from Manohar Parrikar, while he was defence minister. Talking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, he quoted a figure: “The Rafale is quite expensive. As you go into the upper end, the cost goes up. When you talk of 126 aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore.”
__________________________________

That aside, Ajai Shukla's number for the MMRCA cost sounds about right. €19.5 billion is quite close (at the 2011-12 exchange rate) to the $25-30 bn estimates for the deal at the time (having ballooned from $15 bn after other costs were included). The USD strengthened again in 2015 but that shouldn't have affected the Euro denominated cost of the aircraft.

What his article does NOT account for is that the €1.7 bn budgeted for customization isn't a recurring expense. Amortize that over a build order of 126 units, and the unit cost of the NDA deal drops to €184 mn/unit, which isn't hugely greater than the previous deal's €155 mn/unit sticker, considering the smaller volumes in play.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 11 Nov 2018 10:20

Well, what part of “there was no deal concluded” is not comprehensible to people?

IAF, FM and DM have said on record that the price of 18 aircraft was known from the bid and cost of 126 aircraft deal could not be concluded.

They have also stated that the deal for 36 aircrafts is cheaper and better than known cost of 18 Rafael. Rest is pure speculation. Where is the scope of bribery in govt to govt deals?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Nov 2018 13:32

A manufacturer,any,can pass on part of payments under the table as was supposedly done in the Karachi sub scam by DCNS.Here,as the SC has asked for costing details,it would be easy to prove or disprove if there was undue excessive payments made if the specs in both UPA and NDA contracts were more or less the same.Since there is no TOT in the 36 bird deal,there should be some cost savings in the price.Anyway,the deal has fast become a non-issue to most people as there has been overzealous harping about it by the Cong. The only piece of disquiet is M.Hollande's allegation that he was given no choice in the matter of local partner.Since then,there's been a studious silence on his part and no one in France appears willing to take the issue further.Rafale is fast becoming a non-issue.RG has literally beaten the issue to death!

The first Raffy for us is reportedly being flight tested. What matters for us is timely delivery and another order for around 18-20 at least,with some hard bargaining on price.Around 60 Raffys,the same no. of M2Ks,and 60+ MIG-29UGs would give us 180+ medium multi-role aircraft of very considerable capability. Coupled with the approx. 272-300 MKIs and 120+ upgraded Jags (why on earth has this upgrade taken more than 3 air shows to begin with beats me) would give us around 600+ very capable birds .The extra 40MKIs must be ordered asap to keep numbers happy.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Nov 2018 19:39

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:A must read article for *Everyone* on BRF. This is how mis-information spreads....

Is Indian Air Force Naming Rafale After a Serving Air Marshal?
https://newscentral24x7.com/indian-air- ... -dassault/
Rakesh, request you to post this in a central location so that DDM perfidy is exposed.

Saar, I do not know where else to put this. By the way, check this out..

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 5731264512 --> Negative Sir. Both Snehesh Philip and I stand by our tweets on this. Snehesh Philip has some more detail in an article he has done today. Kindly see. Thanks.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 12 Nov 2018 15:53

GoI has given Rafale details to SC

Centre submits Rafale deal’s decision-making process & price to SC

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Nov 2018 03:45

Indian MoD's replies in Supreme Court on a petition regarding the Rafale deal.

1/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907802837475328

2/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907806515879936

3/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907811687432192

4/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907819656560640

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Nov 2018 09:45

Rakesh wrote:Indian MoD's replies in Supreme Court on a petition regarding the Rafale deal.

1/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907802837475328

2/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907806515879936

3/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907811687432192

4/4 ---> https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1061907819656560640

This is a must read primar for every BRFite. Nice compact doc on DPP and Offset policy. Can some one please post the images in Procurement policy thread...?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Nov 2018 13:55

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1062224337795727360

Sweet. @ANI has the first pictures of RB008, the first Rafale built for the Indian Air Force.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1062246637412798464

First Indian Air Force Rafale RB008 in flight at the Istres air base. (Grabs/@ANI)

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Nov 2018 13:59

ANI interview of Dassualts CEO. Lot of information as far as the fake Rafale scam is concerned. See ANI tweets for snippets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2kuF29 ... e=youtu.be

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Nov 2018 14:16

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1062239520207355904

#Visuals: First look of the #Rafale jet for the Indian Air Force, from the Istre-Le Tube airbase in France

1 min video

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 13 Nov 2018 16:02

JayS wrote:ANI interview of Dassualts CEO. Lot of information as far as the fake Rafale scam is concerned. See ANI tweets for snippets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2kuF29 ... e=youtu.be

The interview is really good. Many questions answered. Sad part is our journalist’s are not well educated when it comes defense equipment, Smita is seen saying helmet mounted signals, pulse Doppler radar when trying to get Eric to confirm the configuration difference between these 36 and previous 18 MMRCA coming to India in a fly away condition.

Eric’s response that they are same configurations makes me wonder then from where did various journalists get 14 India specific enhancements which are supposedly new in these 36 aircrafts ...

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 13 Nov 2018 16:08

On a side note inc has responded to this interview in most shameless manner. Only when I thought they couldn’t stoop any lower they continue to astonish me. Can’t imagine them back in power and ruining India’s defense preparedness. Rahul has directly accused Dassault CEO by making derogatory personal remarks. Heights of immaturity. Wonder what impact this would have on future prospects of this great aircraft for India.

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Nov 2018 16:33

Sumeet wrote:On a side note inc has responded to this interview in most shameless manner. Only when I thought they couldn’t stoop any lower they continue to astonish me. Can’t imagine them back in power and ruining India’s defense preparedness. Rahul has directly accused Dassault CEO by making derogatory personal remarks. Heights of immaturity. Wonder what impact this would have on future prospects of this great aircraft for India.

Beautiful and potent aircraft. But to be honest, I hope its prospects remain at 36 — with all future resources and orders poured into Tejas and the oncoming AMCA.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 13 Nov 2018 16:41

chola wrote:
Sumeet wrote:On a side note inc has responded to this interview in most shameless manner. Only when I thought they couldn’t stoop any lower they continue to astonish me. Can’t imagine them back in power and ruining India’s defense preparedness. Rahul has directly accused Dassault CEO by making derogatory personal remarks. Heights of immaturity. Wonder what impact this would have on future prospects of this great aircraft for India.
Beautiful and potent aircraft. But to be honest, I hope its prospects remain at 36 — with all future resources and orders poured into Tejas and the oncoming AMCA.

Chola then what do you think about 114 MMRCA 2 ?

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Nov 2018 16:58

Sumeet wrote:
chola wrote:
Beautiful and potent aircraft. But to be honest, I hope its prospects remain at 36 — with all future resources and orders poured into Tejas and the oncoming AMCA.

Chola then what do you think about 114 MMRCA 2 ?

Could end up like MMRCA 1 at this point.

Ideally for me, if it kicks off for real, would be an upgraded MKI or the Russian offer of the SU-35 (and build it at HAL’s MKI line.)

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2018 03:20

chola wrote:Beautiful and potent aircraft. But to be honest, I hope its prospects remain at 36 — with all future resources and orders poured into Tejas and the oncoming AMCA.

That is not going to happen. It will be either Rafale or some other bird. But MMRCA will not stop at 36.

From a commonality standpoint, it makes better sense to just order 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale and be done with this.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2018 03:21

https://twitter.com/Ra_Bies/status/1062369142945316869 ----> Dassault’s CEO is lying, Defence Minister is lying, Indian Government is lying, French Government is lying, documents are lying, offset partners including Ambani are lying. The only person telling the truth is Raja Rahul Harishchandra Gandhi

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2018 03:23

Click on the link to see the picture....

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 8057561088 ----> So I spot what appear to be two India specific upgrades on the first Rafale for the IAF. The fin near the cockpit may be linked to an Israeli sat com set and the radar warning receiver on the tail also appears different to in-service Rafales.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Nov 2018 07:14

Rakesh
What about
57 +114 F18s?
Or 57 Rafales vs 57 F 18s?
Where would EMALS fit?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Nov 2018 08:13

ramana wrote:Rakesh
What about
57 +114 F18s?
Or 57 Rafales vs 57 F 18s?
Where would EMALS fit?

Is this question for this thread or for the Indian Naval Aviation thread?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 Nov 2018 08:53

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Ra_Bies/status/1062369142945316869 ----> Dassault’s CEO is lying, Defence Minister is lying, Indian Government is lying, French Government is lying, documents are lying, offset partners including Ambani are lying. The only person telling the truth is Raja Rahul Harishchandra Gandhi

This was the very same technique that was used to delay/scuttle the IA's acquisition of the bofor's replacement.

The same theme is being once again being run with a variation and it is also being used to smear the GoI ahead of the 2019 playoffs.

Cancellation of this contract will open up the field and allow two other countries to bid for the new contract, and maybe allow the jaws of the vise to close further.

This has all the hallmarks of an insidious methodology used by someone like cambridge analytica or one of its equally dangerous clones that have taken root in India.

guys like prashant kishore have been using these methods in India for some time now. the opposition has hired some western university professor to coach and guide their "leaders" with the objective of making a major impact in the state as well as the 2019 elections.

Whether it works is not the issue. At this time no other major party has picked up the same thread. This will change going forward and as one gets closer to 2019.

One thing is for sure. This is another wide open doorway for the BIF to enter. The complicity of a multitude of Indian entities is there for all to see.

The denuding of the IAF and the IN has impacted operational readiness as well as the narrowing of strategic options. The long lead times for the ramping up of assets that we already should have had in place by now is another worrying factor.

The bofor's replacement issue and the active hobbling of the IA which has virtually pioneered the innovative use of such a weapon in a landscape that is not really conducive for such operations is telling as also to the fact that BIF has been active in India even before the artillery replacement issue came up.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Nov 2018 09:31

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:Beautiful and potent aircraft. But to be honest, I hope its prospects remain at 36 — with all future resources and orders poured into Tejas and the oncoming AMCA.
That is not going to happen. It will be either Rafale or some other bird. But MMRCA will not stop at 36.

From a commonality standpoint, it makes better sense to just order 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale and be done with this.

It is what I hope for anyways, Admiral. We are on the cusp of a major push domestically and the last thing we need is another screwdrivergiri project to siphon away funds.

I have more than just hope in this case. I have precedence.

What gives the 114 plane MMRCA scheme greater chance of success than the 126 one? We will no longer make the winning phoren company guarantee the locally assembled product? Haven’t heard any relaxing of terms.

This time the slow crawl of the procurement babus will inadvertently work to the nation’s benefit!

naruto · Post by **naruto** » 14 Nov 2018 12:50

Not sure whether to post this ....

Krishnadas Rajagopal @kdrajagopal
AG: Our adversaries will take advantage of such disclosure. But out of respect for SC, we provided you specifics on weaponry, avionics @the_hindu @abaruah64

https://twitter.com/kdrajagopal/status/ ... 1422475264

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 14 Nov 2018 16:03

chola wrote:
Rakesh wrote: That is not going to happen. It will be either Rafale or some other bird. But MMRCA will not stop at 36.

From a commonality standpoint, it makes better sense to just order 2 - 3 squadrons more of the Rafale and be done with this.
It is what I hope for anyways, Admiral. We are on the cusp of a major push domestically and the last thing we need is another screwdrivergiri project to siphon away funds.

I have more than just hope in this case. I have precedence.

What gives the 114 plane MMRCA scheme greater chance of success than the 126 one? We will no longer make the winning phoren company guarantee the locally assembled product? Haven’t heard any relaxing of terms.

This time the slow crawl of the procurement babus will inadvertently work to the nation’s benefit!

I second what Rakesh said. In fact get it from Dassault directly and hold them accountable in similar fashion (as current deal) for a decade. Also, get Dassault/Snecma to work on AMCA/Kaveri with ADA/DRDO/HAL (There shouldn't be any conflict of interest with them). Make sure all inducted Rafale's are at F4 standard. Hopefully as soon as Rafale induction is over AMCA gets to IOC stage. With LCA and AMCA being built locally we can kiss by to screwdrivergiri.